| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:25 PM | Hello, I am new to the forum. Greetings. I like to play a melee character with arcane spells. I am just wondering if a Fighter12/Sorcerer8 will be a good build to go after? Basically, when epic comes around, I will just keep getting Sorcerer levels. I have thought of going for Eldritch Knight and I know all those optimized builds for it. However, I want to have Greater Weapon Specialization. I am just wondering if you guys think this is viable. Thank you. |
| Perfecto07-19-05, 02:31 PM | Check out this link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309), it's a pretty exhaustive list of options for Gish builds... |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:34 PM | Check out this link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309), it's a pretty exhaustive list of options for Gish builds... Thank you, but those builds are more arcane based than melee based. They usually have very few levels of fighters in them. I want to have Greater Weapon Spec. and am not sure if Fighter12/Sorc8 is a viable combo for min/maxer. Please help. |
| Zsasz_Diedne07-19-05, 02:38 PM | They have very few levels of fighter in them because that's all you need to make a good Gish, if at all. If you really want GWS that badly your better off not even looking at magic, because more than half of your levels are going to be devoted to Fighter, leaving very little room to be an effective Gish. Beyond that the Gish thread Perfecto linked to is the way to go. |
| Pellanor07-19-05, 02:42 PM | Why do you want Greater Weapon Specialization? It's not that great of a feat. Also what books are you limited to? You are obvisously planning on specializing on one particular weapon. Which one and why? When you take your sorc levels, what kind of spells do you plan on taking? More combat related one, multi-purpose ones, blast spells or something else? Do you have any RP themes that you want your character to fit into? Any Alignment or Race restirctions? If we can get a bit more info, it'll be easier to help. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:42 PM | They have very few levels of fighter in them because that's all you need to make a good Gish, if at all. If you really want GWS that badly your better off not even looking at magic, because more than half of your levels are going to be devoted to Fighter, leaving very little room to be an effective Gish. Beyond that the Gish thread Perfecto linked to is the way to go. I am only interested in a little bit of arcane spells like True Strike and Blur, and things like Bull's Strength, Displacement, Improved Invis, and Stoneskin. I don't want to build a "gish" where the point is to have mediocre melee and good magic capability (somewhat like 50% melee 50% magic). I am looking into a build with 80% melee and 20% arcane spells. So, is the Fighter12/Sorc8 viable? :) |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:44 PM | Why do you want Greater Weapon Specialization? It's not that great of a feat. Also what books are you limited to? You are obvisously planning on specializing on one particular weapon. Which one and why? When you take your sorc levels, what kind of spells do you plan on taking? More combat related one, multi-purpose ones, blast spells or something else? Do you have any RP themes that you want your character to fit into? Any Alignment or Race restirctions? If we can get a bit more info, it'll be easier to help. I am being limited to the PHB only, basically core classes. A two-handed weapon. See above posts on the spells :) I want to roleplay a mystic knight. Thank you. :) |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 02:46 PM | Its viability really depends on what type of campaign you are playing, what feats you go for, how you play it, and what everyone else is playing. If you pick your feats right, a straight fighter can be pretty impressive, and creativity always trumps rules-lawyering. It isn't optimal though, and typically, GWS isn't worth what you COULD get with a gish (Warrior/Spellcaster), power-wise, and so it's typically avoided. It doesn't even give that great of a benefit over standard specialization, and it costs you 8 levels to get it. You could get much more 'oomph' out of Fighter1/Wizard4/SS3/EK10/+CL Class2 or Pal2/Sorc4/SS3/EK10/+CL Class1 if you were willing to give up specialization. You wouldn't have as many feats, but the first build would give you 4 attacks/round AND 9th level spells, and the second would give you 4 attacks and 8th (plus a LOT of spells to throw around for Arcane Strikes or the like). With 8 levels of Sorceror, you will have only just received access to 4th level spells, leaving all the higher level buffs/debuffs completely out of reach until epic play, if you even ever make it that far. If your dead set on that build, I would suggest getting Arcane Strike (CW) as soon as you qualify for it (15 or 18 I think). Most of those low-level spells you'll be getting as a sorceror will not have the same effect on combat that burning them will especially not with a CL of only 8 (or 12 with Practiced Caster). There are a few (obvious) exceptions to this rule, but that's the general case. You'd also have a lot of feats with that build, what weapons and feat chains were you planning on going for? |
| PhoenixInferno07-19-05, 02:48 PM | If you're limited to only the PHB, then try something like Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4/Paladin 12 - low level spells of utility, a few bonus feats and CHA synergy. Optimization is all about the synergy. With only the PHB at your disposal, you're playing a decidely weak character archetype. Making such a character stronger requires additional sources, primarily the Dungeon Master's Guide and Complete Warrior. You NEED Eldritch Knight - absolutely NEED it. Greater Weapon Specialization is a terrible feat - it requires a 12 level investment in Fighter to gain an additional +2 to damage? With a two handed weapon, that's only +8 damage/round, assuming you hit with all 4 attacks. With two weapons, its still only upto +14 damage/round, which is piddling compared to the amount of hit points a typical enemy has at 12th level - but you're going to dilute that with Sorcerer levels. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 02:49 PM | I don't want to build a "gish" where the point is to have mediocre melee and good magic capability (somewhat like 50% melee 50% magic). I am looking into a build with 80% melee and 20% arcane spells. I recommend reading (and trying to understand) the thread Perfecto pointed to you. You don't need 12 levels of Fighter to be '80%' melee at level 20. There are plenty of fairly simple builds with only a couple (or no) levels of fighter that can get you 4 attacks per round, a bunch of combat prowess, AND high-level spells. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:52 PM | Its viability really depends on what type of campaign you are playing, what feats you go for, how you play it, and what everyone else is playing. If you pick your feats right, a straight fighter can be pretty impressive, and creativity always trumps rules-lawyering. It isn't optimal though, and typically, GWS isn't worth what you COULD get with a gish (Warrior/Spellcaster), power-wise, and so it's typically avoided. It doesn't even give that great of a benefit over standard specialization, and it costs you 8 levels to get it. You could get much more 'oomph' out of Fighter1/Wizard4/SS3/EK10/+CL Class2 or Pal2/Sorc4/SS3/EK10/+CL Class1 if you were willing to give up specialization. You wouldn't have as many feats, but the first build would give you 4 attacks/round AND 9th level spells, and the second would give you 4 attacks and 8th (plus a LOT of spells to throw around for Arcane Strikes or the like). With 8 levels of Sorceror, you will have only just received access to 4th level spells, leaving all the higher level buffs/debuffs completely out of reach until epic play, if you even ever make it that far. If your dead set on that build, I would suggest getting Arcane Strike (CW) as soon as you qualify for it (15 or 18 I think). Most of those low-level spells you'll be getting as a sorceror will not have the same effect on combat that burning them will especially not with a CL of only 8 (or 12 with Practiced Caster). There are a few (obvious) exceptions to this rule, but that's the general case. You'd also have a lot of feats with that build, what weapons and feat chains were you planning on going for? The problem is, I am limited to core classes only. In this case, is the build the most optimal without prestige class? I am going to be the "tank" for the party. I am thinking of going a two-handed weapon and going for the hard hitter power attack feat chains (I love true strike and the burst damage) or possible the whirlwind attack path. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 02:54 PM | If you're limited to only the PHB, then try something like Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4/Paladin 12 - low level spells of utility, a few bonus feats and CHA synergy. Optimization is all about the synergy. With only the PHB at your disposal, you're playing a decidely weak character archetype. Making such a character stronger requires additional sources, primarily the Dungeon Master's Guide and Complete Warrior. This Fighter4/Sorcerer4/Paladin12 sounds interesting. How would you build it if you were to go let's say Human and 28 point-buy? Also, which class should I bring up during Epic, Paladin? |
| rilem07-19-05, 02:55 PM | Mediocre melee and good magic? Check out those Gish builds again. Many have +16 or +17, and the ability to be polymorphed into a War Troll (or shapechanged into something far worse). They'll obliterate a Fighter12/Sorc8 in a melee fight. Fighter12/Sorc8: BAB +16, saves 10/6/10. 4th level spells. Plenty of feats. Can't cast in armor. Terrible caster checks for dispels Good luck with casting stoneskin or Invisibility. Blur and Truestrike are Verbal-only, so you're OK there. Actually playing this thing would be terrible — you don't want to wait until 20th level to get 4th level spells, so you'd go something like Fighter4/Sor8/Fighter8. That's 8 levels of poor BAB and d4 hit points. You'll die. If all you want is a bit of casting, I'd advise something like Fighter6/Sor4/Spellsword2/DragonDisciple8 — BAB +16, better saves, lots of HP and lots of little spells. Or play a Hexblade — still sucks, but at least you'll live. EDIT: Much happened while I was ranting, pardon me. If PHB only, I'd agree that Phoenix's build is good. Stay away from Whirlwind Attack, though. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 02:56 PM | I want to roleplay a mystic knight. Thank you. :) Fighter 4/Pal2/Sorc4/EK10 4 Fighter Bonus Feats, Divine Grace (CHA to Saves), 13th Level Caster (6th level spells), BAB of 18 at 20, 16d10+4d4 hp, plus Weapon Specialization if you really want it. Add in Arcane Strike and/or a Spellstoring weapon and you are a damage machine. If you can take it, Spellsword from CW at level 3 could replace either 3 levels of fighter or EK and would allow you to cast arcane spells in armor (-15% ASF) coupled with Mithril and/or Twilight (BoED). |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:01 PM | For those suggesting builds with prestige classes, thank you and I know all those optimized "gish" build with prestige classes. However, we are now playing a base-class only campaign and I want to know how you would optimize one? :) For instance, one poster suggested Fighter4/Sorc4/Paladin12. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 03:04 PM | The problem is, I am limited to core classes only. In this case, is the build the most optimal without prestige class? I am going to be the "tank" for the party. I am thinking of going a two-handed weapon and going for the hard hitter power attack feat chains (I love true strike and the burst damage) or possible the whirlwind attack path. Wow, I didn't think you literally meant PHB only, I assumed DMG was open too, which was why I kept mentioning EK. Without EK or similar classes, you really can't be both effective in combat and have useful spellcasting. If its PH straight classes only, screw the magic and just go straight Fighter or Druid (or Mixing Fighter/Barb or something similar). Either will be a MUCH better tank that trying to throw in Sorceror levels. You'll be sacrificing too much power for too little benefit and end up both a poor tank and a poor caster by mixing the two. You may be able to pull off taking a level or 2 in sorceror without losing too much, but is it really worth it to be able to cast True strike a couple of times a day? |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:08 PM | Wow, I didn't think you literally meant PHB only, I assumed DMG was open too, which was why I kept mentioning EK. Without EK or similar classes, you really can't be both effective in combat and have useful spellcasting. If its PH straight classes only, screw the magic and just go straight Fighter or Druid (or Mixing Fighter/Barb or something similar). Either will be a MUCH better tank that trying to throw in Sorceror levels. You'll be sacrificing too much power for too little benefit and end up both a poor tank and a poor caster by mixing the two. You may be able to pull off taking a level or 2 in sorceror without losing too much, but is it really worth it to be able to cast True strike a couple of times a day? oo, btw, isn't the Fighter18/Sorc2 better than a Fighter20? you lose 1 BAB but you gain like 5 True Strikes. How about the Fighter4/Sorc4/Paladin12 build? I get True Strike and Blur and can still cast in armor and only lose 2 BAB. Please help. :) |
| Blibdoolpoolp07-19-05, 03:15 PM | Take only one level of sorcerer with the true strike and shield spells. Take the rest of the levels in paladin. Take spirited charge and power attack. Wield your lance in two hands and cast true strike and then power attack your full BAB. It is generally a bad idea to multiclass casters and melee fighters without prestige classes. Your spells suffer greatly because of loss of caster levels and arcane spell failure. If you are playing from level one, you will likely not live to see level 5. |
| Pellanor07-19-05, 03:25 PM | I would suggest Fighter 4, Sorc 1, Paladin 15. Then get yourself a wand of Blur or Stone Skin. You can use your X 1st lvl spells a day as a Sorc for True Strike. You don't need UMD for any of the wands that have spells on either the Sorc or Paladin list. You're Cha stat boosts not only your paladins Smite Evil, Lay on Hands and Saves, but also increases the number of True Strikes you can get off in a day. Then I would go for the route of the Mounted character like Blibdoolpoolp suggested. |
| DisposableHero_07-19-05, 03:27 PM | question: is it PHB only, or just that there are no prestige classes? If it is ONLY the PHB there isn't a lot you can do to optimize this sort of character, taking a single level of sorcerer for true strike isn't terrible if thats the way you want to do it. If its just that you can't use prestige classes then you can do a ton of stuff. Bard16/Paladin4 with Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer is quite powerful for a build without PrCs, as it gets bardic music, smiting, cha to saves, turning, casting in light armor and some solid arcane spells. You could also take Battle Caster from complete arcane to cast in medium armor. Hexblade has been mentioned, Battle Sorcerer from UA is another option if thats open to you. Fighter2/Paladin2/BattleSorcerer16 is a solid choice, ending with 16 base attack casting in light (or medium armor), 2 fighter bonus feats and charisma to saves. If you are willing to prepare spells their is solid synergy in a Swashbuckler/Wizard build. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:29 PM | Thank you for all your replies, but I have another question regarding an armored sorc build instead of gish. For Epic levels, I know of the Paladin2/Sorc7/SS1/EK10 build, but the character of interest is more of an armored Sorc instead of a gish (consider Automatic Still Spell in Epic). Is it better to go Paladin2/Sorc7/SS1/EK10 (EK in epic) or Paladin2/Sorc18 (bring sorc to epic). I know the first build gives a BAB of 16 but it only has a caster level of 17. The second build has a caster level of 18. If the main goal is only to wear armor, is it better to have that 1 extra caster level? |
| catharz07-19-05, 03:29 PM | You couuld do pretty well multiclassing into Bard. Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Bard 16 will do decent melee if you have a high enough Con, although it is really better for an archer (and then you'd be better off with Barb 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 1). This is assuming you don't want to be lawful good. You could also do something like Fighter 12/Bard 8, which will reduce your fighting ability much less than sorcerer. Of course, Charisma is usually a big dump stat for fighters, while Intelligence can actually open up a number of good abilities (Expertise, Improved trip, Improved Disarm, etc). So you might actually do batter with Fighter/Wizard. Which would increase your utility through...utility spells. Your very best bet, however, may be a Fighter/Rogue multiclass. Assuming you have the ability to purchase items. Just pump your ranks of UMD, grab a staff, and start blasting. No ASF worries either. I'd go with something like Rogue 10-16/Fighter 4-10. Add a level of barbarian if that doesn't look to odd to you. Interweave your levels to keep your UMD maxed. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:30 PM | I would suggest Fighter 4, Sorc 1, Paladin 15. Then get yourself a wand of Blur or Stone Skin. You can use your X 1st lvl spells a day as a Sorc for True Strike. You don't need UMD for any of the wands that have spells on either the Sorc or Paladin list. You're Cha stat boosts not only your paladins Smite Evil, Lay on Hands and Saves, but also increases the number of True Strikes you can get off in a day. Then I would go for the route of the Mounted character like Blibdoolpoolp suggested. I don't want exp penalty :( |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:31 PM | question: is it PHB only, or just that there are no prestige classes? If it is ONLY the PHB there isn't a lot you can do to optimize this sort of character, taking a single level of sorcerer for true strike isn't terrible if thats the way you want to do it. If its just that you can't use prestige classes then you can do a ton of stuff. Bard16/Paladin4 with Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer is quite powerful for a build without PrCs, as it gets bardic music, smiting, cha to saves, turning, casting in light armor and some solid arcane spells. You could also take Battle Caster from complete arcane to cast in medium armor. Hexblade has been mentioned, Battle Sorcerer from UA is another option if thats open to you. Fighter2/Paladin2/BattleSorcerer16 is a solid choice, ending with 16 base attack casting in light (or medium armor), 2 fighter bonus feats and charisma to saves. If you are willing to prepare spells their is solid synergy in a Swashbuckler/Wizard build. Yeah, it is PHB base classes only. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 03:32 PM | oo, btw, isn't the Fighter18/Sorc2 better than a Fighter20? you lose 1 BAB but you gain like 5 True Strikes. It can be, in the right circumstances. However, casting True Strike is a standard action, meaning that you lose ALL of your attacks for at least one round every combat, in order to get a +20 to a single attack roll the next round. This may help you hit something just out of your normal attack 'reach', but you only get 5 of them per day, and at level 20 as a melee type character, there are plenty of better, easier, and more reliable ways to gaurantee hits (or at least, greatly increase your chances). With feats and Items, there shouldn't be much if anything you aren't able to hit at least once or twice a round at level 20, and those fights will be generally rare. I wouldn't give up an extra fighter feat, 1 BAB, and ~10hp, for only 5 true strikes a day. Especially considering that you can get a weapon of spellstoring that could do the same thing (or better, if you know what's up). If you try it, let me know how it goes. I suspect you will end up rarely using it. How about the Fighter4/Sorc4/Paladin12 build? I get True Strike and Blur and can still cast in armor and only lose 2 BAB. Please help. :) Minor correction, you'll only be able to cast spells without S components in armor. (You probably already know that, but didn't want anyone being confused.) Personally, I hate paladins, so I never like taking more than two levels of them (and then, only if I am going for CHA synergy and using an alternative paladin out of UA). But that's an aesthetic thing, and has nothing to do with optimization. This build is 'okay' for a core only 'mystic-knight' build. But you could honestly be a much better tank by dropping the arcane entirely and either going straight cleric, druid, or a fighter/barb, fighter/ranger, or ranger/barb mix. I think even a Fighter 4/Paladin2/Sorceror 14 would end up being better at tanking than that build (what with polymorphs and the like). |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:36 PM | It can be, in the right circumstances. However, casting True Strike is a standard action, meaning that you lose ALL of your attacks for at least one round every combat, in order to get a +20 to a single attack roll the next round. This may help you hit something just out of your normal attack 'reach', but you only get 5 of them per day, and at level 20 as a melee type character, there are plenty of better, easier, and more reliable ways to gaurantee hits (or at least, greatly increase your chances). With feats and Items, there shouldn't be much if anything you aren't able to hit at least once or twice a round at level 20, and those fights will be generally rare. I wouldn't give up an extra fighter feat, 1 BAB, and ~10hp, for only 5 true strikes a day. Especially considering that you can get a weapon of spellstoring that could do the same thing (or better, if you know what's up). If you try it, let me know how it goes. I suspect you will end up rarely using it. Minor correction, you'll only be able to cast spells without S components in armor. (You probably already know that, but didn't want anyone being confused.) Personally, I hate paladins, so I never like taking more than two levels of them (and then, only if I am going for CHA synergy and using an alternative paladin out of UA). But that's an aesthetic thing, and has nothing to do with optimization. This build is 'okay' for a core only 'mystic-knight' build. But you could honestly be a much better tank by dropping the arcane entirely and either going straight cleric, druid, or a fighter/barb, fighter/ranger, or ranger/barb mix. I think even a Fighter 4/Paladin2/Sorceror 14 would end up being better at tanking than that build (what with polymorphs and the like). How about Pal2/Sorc18? or Pal18/Sorc2? |
| Blibdoolpoolp07-19-05, 03:39 PM | How about Pal2/Sorc18? or Pal18/Sorc2? You need only one level of sorcerer. At what level are you starting play? |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:41 PM | You need only one level of sorcerer. At what level are you starting play? Why not 2? because you don't lose another BAB for going 2 levels of sorc. We start at 1 but when we play, we level really fast. |
| Pellanor07-19-05, 03:41 PM | I don't want exp penalty :( *doh* completely forgot about that. Now one question, a lot of people have been suggesting Paladin. Do you want to play one? If it's not something you're going to enjoy playing then there's no reason for us to continue suggesting it. Also, are you set on playing an arcane spellcaster? Why not try a divine one? I've always found that you can get a pretty solid tank going with a straight up Cleric or Druid, as then you don't have to worry about ASF. |
| dawgfan07-19-05, 03:43 PM | Not when your losing 5 points of BAB and a crap load of hit points, your best bet is going pal2/sor4/ss5/ek9 |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:44 PM | *doh* completely forgot about that. Now one question, a lot of people have been suggesting Paladin. Do you want to play one? If it's not something you're going to enjoy playing then there's no reason for us to continue suggesting it. Also, are you set on playing an arcane spellcaster? Why not try a divine one? I've always found that you can get a pretty solid tank going with a straight up Cleric or Druid, as then you don't have to worry about ASF. I don't mind playing a Paladin but I can't live without arcane spells :( Even a little bit is fine. |
| rilem07-19-05, 03:49 PM | Sorceror18/Pal2 isn't bad, if you're starting at level 20 and don't mind having a BAB of +10 — you're a caster, also, not really a melee type, though you'll be able to hit hard if you have to. But it's really hard to be a Sorceror5/Pal2 — you're 7th level and you don't have 3rd level spells yet. People have suggested Bard, and you haven't bitten. Bards get Blur. They get Imp. Invisibility. They can cast in light armor. Fighter12/Bard8, as Catharz suggested, could be just the ticket. Or Fighter8/Bard12. And Paladin/Bard combos are possible, of course, especially with noncore feats. |
| Blibdoolpoolp07-19-05, 03:53 PM | Why not 2? because you don't lose another BAB for going 2 levels of sorc. We start at 1 but when we play, we level really fast. You are correct about the BAB. However, you do lose paladin spell progression, mount progression, and d10 > d4. We find it interesting that a DM that levels PCs quickly does not allow prestige classes. Out of curiosity, what is his/her reasoning? |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:56 PM | What level are you starting at? This has been asked a number of times, and you don't seem to realize how important it is. Sorceror18/Pal2 isn't bad, if you're starting at level 20 and don't mind having a BAB of +10 — you're a caster, also, not really a melee type, though you'll be able to hit hard if you have to. But it's really hard to be a Sorceror5/Pal2 — you're 7th level and you don't have 3rd level spells yet. People have suggested Bard, and you haven't bitten. Bards get Blur. They get Imp. Invisibility. They can cast in light armor. Fighter12/Bard8, as Catharz suggested, could be just the ticket. Or Fighter4/Pal3/Bard11. I answered the starting level question. You just missed it. :) We start at 1, but we level fast. I understand the concern about the pal2/sorc18 issues at low levels. It is rather weak at low level and is only good at high levels. Not interested in playing a bard and I want heavy armor. It is a RPing thing. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 03:57 PM | You are correct about the BAB. However, you do lose paladin spell progression, mount progression, and d10 > d4. We find it interesting that a DM that levels PCs quickly does not allow prestige classes. Out of curiosity, what is his/her reasoning? Understood. Well, we have been playing D&D for like 10 years. It is the tradition that we level fast (like at least 1 level per session). |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 03:58 PM | How about Pal2/Sorc18? or Pal18/Sorc2? It would depend on how you were playing the character. The first is taking some severe risks in combat (especially if he runs out of spells), and won't have much of a BAB. The second isn't getting much benefit for losing the two levels of Paladin. Let's try something else... Bard 4/Fighter3/Paladin4/Fighter4-12 You end up with a single level of XP penalty (Level 9) and have to switch from something non-lawful to lawful good (and stay there), but you end up with a great deal of stuff. You get 1st level Paladin Spells and 2nd level Bard spells. Good CHA Synergy. a 19 BAB. Lots of feats. High hitpoints, great saves, immunity to disease, and fear. Undead turning. UMD to cast Sorc/Wizard/Etc spells from scrolls and the like + the ability to use wands/scrolls/etc with Bard/Paladin spells on it. Lots of skills available and skillpoints to spend. And the ability to cast without any penalty in Light armor. All for the cost of an extra 800xp at 9th level. |
| rilem07-19-05, 04:00 PM | Saw my oversight, tx. What about feats? Can they come from Noncore sources like Complete Warrior? Many fighter levels aren't a good idea unless you've got a lot of options. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:00 PM | Scenario 1: No Epic Is it better to go Pal2/Sorc18 or Pal2/Sorc8/EK10? Scenario 2: Epic Enabled Is it better to go Pal2/Sorc18 -->Sorc all the way or Pal2/Sorc8/EK10 --> EK all the way? I am just curious. The condition is, it is good to be able to melee, but not necessary. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:01 PM | It would depend on how you were playing the character. The first is taking some severe risks in combat (especially if he runs out of spells), and won't have much of a BAB. The second isn't getting much benefit for losing the two levels of Paladin. Let's try something else... Bard 4/Fighter3/Paladin4/Fighter4-12 You end up with a single level of XP penalty (Level 9) and have to switch from something non-lawful to lawful good (and stay there), but you end up with a great deal of stuff. You get 1st level Paladin Spells and 2nd level Bard spells. Good CHA Synergy. a 19 BAB. Lots of feats. High hitpoints, great saves, immunity to disease, and fear. Undead turning. UMD to cast Sorc/Wizard/Etc spells from scrolls and the like + the ability to use wands/scrolls/etc with Bard/Paladin spells on it. Lots of skills available and skillpoints to spend. And the ability to cast without any penalty in Light armor. All for the cost of an extra 800xp at 9th level. We don't do alignment change :( I know we are weird....and kinda restricted. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:02 PM | Saw my oversight, tx. What about feats? Can they come from Noncore sources like Complete Warrior? Many fighter levels aren't a good idea unless you've got a lot of options. PHB feats only too :( |
| dawgfan07-19-05, 04:06 PM | You need to tell your dm to get his head out of his ass and let you use some other material, its pretty ridiculous when you cant even use the PrC's from the dmg much less anything else. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:12 PM | You need to tell your dm to get his head out of his ass and let you use some other material, its pretty ridiculous when you cant even use the PrC's from the dmg much less anything else. We tried a campaign with PrC's and it was messy in the sense that no one roleplayed anymore. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 04:13 PM | I honestly don't think you can get what you want optimized with the restrictions you got. Bards are out, Non-core feats/classes are out, no prestige classes, you want heavy armor, but also arcane spells and High BAB, and no XP penalty (which I don't quite understand your reluctance for, if you are leveling once per game anyway). With those restrictions I don't think you can get what you are wanting and you can't get any closer than Fighter and/or Paladin X/Sorceror and/or Wizard Y. You can certainly create a viable, and even powerful character under those circumstances. My current character is a Fighter 10/Wizard 3, and I have no problems in fights 2 or 3 CR above me (I don't know how well it will hold out at Fighter10/Wizard5/DSL5, but I'll see). But that's mostly because I REALLY optimized my items and my current DM plays pretty fast and loose with the rules. Even so, I am kicking myself for taking so many levels of Fighter (he's a converted 2nd ed char, so I had no choice) as I would have preferred to go Fighter 4/Wizard2/DSL10/Wizard3-6 had I been starting from scratch (it would have been both more optimal and more RP reflective of the character). I doubt you'll get anything close to 'optimal' with those restrictions. |
| rilem07-19-05, 04:14 PM | If you can't use DMG, how come you keep asking about Eldritch Knight? If you can use EK, Pal2/Sorc4/EK10 for 16 levels, then back into Sorc (or Dragon Disicple if you've had enough spellcasting). |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:23 PM | If you can't use DMG, how come you keep asking about Eldritch Knight? If you can use EK, Pal2/Sorc4/EK10 for 16 levels, then back into Sorc (or Dragon Disicple if you've had enough spellcasting). Because there is a very very slight chance the dm will include it. Maybe if we behave. Also, I want to know if people prefer Pal2/Sorc4/EK10/Sorc4 more or Pal2/Sorc18 more because one has 8th level spells and one has 9th level spells. What do you think? |
| furious kender07-19-05, 04:27 PM | Remember that true strike is also a domain spell for clerics. Enlarge is as well. Have you thought about being a fighter cleric? It has better hp, can play as a combatant rp-wise if you pick a war-like god, can cast in heavy armor. Only downside is that you only have 1 true strike per day unless your gm rules it becomes one of your spells known. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:30 PM | Remember that true strike is also a domain spell for clerics. Enlarge is as well. Have you thought about being a fighter cleric? It has better hp, can play as a combatant rp-wise if you pick a war-like god, can cast in heavy armor. Only downside is that you only have 1 true strike per day unless your gm rules it becomes one of your spells known. We already have a cleric in our party. I don't want to play the same thing as him. :) |
| rilem07-19-05, 04:34 PM | Also, I want to know if people prefer Pal2/Sorc4/EK10/Sorc4 more or Pal2/Sorc18 more because one has 8th level spells and one has 9th level spells. As a combatant, I'd prefer 8th level spells, BAB +16 and a better chance of surviving to level 20 to 9th level spells, BAB+11 and 18 levels of d4 hit dice. EK's aren't great — they're best kept away from melee — but they're hardier than sorcerors. At level 20, when the Sor18/Pal2 can shapechange into a Pit Fiend with 27 Con, that edges out the EK. But you aren't playing from level 20. |
| Blibdoolpoolp07-19-05, 04:38 PM | Because there is a very very slight chance the dm will include it. Maybe if we behave. Also, I want to know if people prefer Pal2/Sorc4/EK10/Sorc4 more or more because one has 8th level spells and one has 9th level spells. What do you think? Pal2/Sorc4/EK10/Sorc4 > Pal2/Sorc18 |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 04:43 PM | As a combatant, I'd prefer 8th level spells, BAB +16 and a better chance of surviving to level 20 to 9th level spells, BAB+11 and 18 levels of d4 hit dice. EK's aren't great — they're best kept away from melee — but they're hardier than sorcerors. At level 20, when the Sor18/Pal2 can shapechange into a Pit Fiend with 27 Con, that edges out the EK. But you aren't playing from level 20. How about when epic comes around? |
| rilem07-19-05, 04:58 PM | Epic's practically a different game entirely, but ... Epic EK gets bonus feats every four levels, Sorceror every 3. Epic Feats seem to count for a lot. A Pal2/Sor8/EK10 will have to take at least two more Sor levels (to get 9th level spells), so they'll have to go to Pal2/Sor10/EK10/EEK4 (ECL26) to get their first bonus feat (they'll have two regular epic feats by then, of course). A Sor18/Pal2/ESorc6 (ECL26) will have two regular feats and two bonus feats by then. So they'll be up on EK from that perspective. They're still forever stuck at BAB+11, however. You're basically asking about two different PC types. A Pal2/Sorc18 is probably survivable to level 20 — if you play it as a caster. If you try to tank with it, I don't think you'll live. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 05:09 PM | Epic's practically a different game entirely, but ... Epic EK gets bonus feats every four levels, Sorceror every 3. Epic Feats seem to count for a lot. A Pal2/Sor8/EK10 will have to take at least two more Sor levels (to get 9th level spells), so they'll have to go to Pal2/Sor10/EK10/EEK4 (ECL26) to get their first bonus feat (they'll have two regular epic feats by then, of course). A Sor18/Pal2/ESorc6 (ECL26) will have two regular feats and two bonus feats by then. So they'll be up on EK from that perspective. They're still forever stuck at BAB+11, however. You're basically asking about two different PC types. A Pal2/Sorc18 is probably survivable to level 20 — if you play it as a caster. If you try to tank with it, I don't think you'll live. Hmm....I can just go Pal2/Sorc8/EK10 is epic ready and can go EEK already. Pal2/Sorc18 needs 2 more levels of sorc so they get epic feats (from epic class) 2 levels later but they get epic feats every 3 levels instead of 4 of EEK. Am I right? O btw, I know they are 2 different character types. Just curious what people prefer. |
| DisposableHero_07-19-05, 05:24 PM | well what you're asking is if people prefer casters to gish, as Pal2/Sorc18 is a caster and Pal2/Sorc8/EK10 is a gish, they are designed and played fundamentally different. On a related note: Pal2/Sorc18 is considerably worse than Sorc15/Archmage5 for what it is going to end up doing. |
| monkeycaster07-19-05, 05:27 PM | Preference would be for what I wanted to play. If I wanted to play a spellcaster, I would take Pal2/Sor18 (actually, I'd take something else, but I mean between the two :)). If I wanted to play a gish, I would go with an EK build over taking that many levels of sorceror. Hmm....I can just go Pal2/Sorc8/EK10 is epic ready and can go EEK already. Pal2/Sorc18 needs 2 more levels of sorc so they get epic feats (from epic class) 2 levels later but they get epic feats every 3 levels instead of 4 of EEK. Am I right? Pal2/Sorc8/EK10 would be Epic Ready, and if you went with EK as your epic class, would get your first bonus feat at level 24, and another every 4 levels thereafter. Pal2/Sorc18 is not Epic Ready. If you went with Sorc as your epic class, you would get your first Epic Bonus Feat at level 25, but would get them every 3 levels thereafter. For reference, this means that both characters would have 2 epic bonus feats at 30, and the former would have 5 at 40, while the latter would have 6 at 40. The CL of the first would be 27 at 30, and 37 at 40, while the latter build would have you one higher. But for ONE extra epic bonus feat (at level 40!!!!) and 1 extra CL, your sacrificing an attack per round, a fighter (non-epic) bonus feat, better saves, and about 30 hitpoints. It doesn't sound worth it to me, unless you wanted to play a straight up caster to begin with. In which case, just play a straight up caster. (and to be honest, you probably won't get to 40) PrC's are supposed to be tools to enhance roleplaying, not detract from it. Personally, I use them as an excuse to go over and beyond on the backstory, and with my character goals and what-not, and when I DM, I use them for plot points in the story of the game. Try getting your DM to see it that way (by writing up a good backstory and playing your character well), and CO becomes a lot easier. |
| dawgfan07-19-05, 05:33 PM | Pal2/Sor8/EK10 is insanely better than Pal2/Sor18, your BAB is higher your HP is higher, your epic ready since you took that into consideration, and all for giving up just one caster level. Trust me Pal2/Sor8/EK10 is the way to go. |
| Borin07-19-05, 06:17 PM | It also depends on whether you want to use weapons (for which you need high bab) or use spells like Polymorph to get a great natural attack routine (which works fine with low bab). Some people mentioned Improved Trip. A Ftr/Wiz would be pretty good at it with things like Enlarge (wiz1, so you'd be able to do this pretty soon) and maybe Polymorph later. Trip doesn't involve bab (unlike grapple) so you won't notice the bab you missed out on. With Enlarge you already have an 8+str on trip attempts (4 from size, 4 from the feat), and you'll have good reach. If you expect you'll get appropriate wealth/level, you could also do Ftr/Rog or Pal/Rog as someone mentioned above. Use Magic Device makes you pretty much 1/2 a wizard, just use wands or scrolls. Ftr16/Rog4 has +19bab and can have full ranks UMD. |
| furious kender07-19-05, 06:26 PM | Guys- You are arguing about which is a better caster style gish (e.g., pal 2/sor 18). The original question was what caster would help him be a better tank. I think those are different things. I still think the cleric/fighter or cleric/paladin is your best core option for a tank. Also remember that being a cleric in itself says little about your personality (e.g., no alignment restrictions for clerics). How you roleplay them is more dependant on their god. For example, I have a hard time seeing a cleric of Kord not being a hulking tank. My favorite human god has to be the Battle Rager (CN) from Kalamar, whose holy book consists primarily of battle cries. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 06:30 PM | Guys- You are arguing about which is a better caster style gish (e.g., pal 2/sor 18). The original question was what caster would help him be a better tank. I think those are different things. I still think the cleric/fighter or cleric/paladin is your best core option for a tank. Also remember that being a cleric in itself says little about your personality (e.g., no alignment restrictions for clerics). How you roleplay them is more dependant on their god. For example, I have a hard time seeing a cleric of Kord not being a hulking tank. My favorite human god has to be the Battle Rager (CN) from Kalamar, whose holy book consists primarily of battle cries. They are discussing that because I asked a different question and changed the topic. :) |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 06:33 PM | I have 1 last question guys. Thank you very much so far. Let's say I want to be an Armored Mage (either Armored Wizard or Armored Sorcerer). Like...basically a caster but with armor. Is it viable to go pure Wizard and spend 4 feats on the armor proficiency and a weapon and then wait for Automatic Still Spell in Epic? How about compared to Pal2/Sorc18? Remember, the goal is to get an Armored Caster (not gish). Thanks. |
| furious kender07-19-05, 07:24 PM | A Pal2/sor18 will die very quickly as a tank, if you want to be a front-liner still. For example, with a con of 16, you will have on average 65.5hp at level 10. With a heavy shield and normal plate, you've got an AC of 22. Assuming your DM is nice and sends 10th level fighters at you with long swords, you can take 10 hits (6.5 damage per hit) and they will hit you about 50% of the time (attack = 10 BAB + str). You can't really hit them very frequently with your bab of +6, so some nifty spells like enlarge are out, and you need bull strength or other buffs to hit much at all. Thus combats will be extended unless you take them out with spells (and take the AOOs if in melee and the arcane cast penalties in armor). Unless healed, you have about 10 rds of life (assuming sometries to hit you 2+ times per turn) in melee. If you get sent something tougher, you will die a lot sooner as a front-liner. For example, you can take 6.5 greatsword hits (average damage of 10 per hit) from the same fighters. I.e., armored arcane castors as tanks are a bad idea. |
| D&DBaby07-19-05, 08:48 PM | A Pal2/sor18 will die very quickly as a tank, if you want to be a front-liner still. For example, with a con of 16, you will have on average 65.5hp at level 10. With a heavy shield and normal plate, you've got an AC of 22. Assuming your DM is nice and sends 10th level fighters at you with long swords, you can take 10 hits (6.5 damage per hit) and they will hit you about 50% of the time (attack = 10 BAB + str). You can't really hit them very frequently with your bab of +6, so some nifty spells like enlarge are out, and you need bull strength or other buffs to hit much at all. Thus combats will be extended unless you take them out with spells (and take the AOOs if in melee and the arcane cast penalties in armor). Unless healed, you have about 10 rds of life (assuming sometries to hit you 2+ times per turn) in melee. If you get sent something tougher, you will die a lot sooner as a front-liner. For example, you can take 6.5 greatsword hits (average damage of 10 per hit) from the same fighters. I.e., armored arcane castors as tanks are a bad idea. We only have 3 players. 1 Cleric 1 Rogue and 1 Armored Caster. Since we only have 3 players, we all have to "tank" and the armored caster is not the main tank, just to get some survivability. Do you think it is better to go Pal2/Sorc18 or Wiz20 and spend feats on armor and then get Automatic Still Spell in Epic? |
| Blibdoolpoolp07-19-05, 09:48 PM | We only have 3 players. 1 Cleric 1 Rogue and 1 Armored Caster. Since we only have 3 players, we all have to "tank" and the armored caster is not the main tank, just to get some survivability. Do you think it is better to go Pal2/Sorc18 or Wiz20 and spend feats on armor and then get Automatic Still Spell in Epic? You aren't a tank? Why do you want armor? Just go straight Wizard. Don't spend feats on armor proficiency. There is no way to optimize foolishness. |
| furious kender07-20-05, 12:30 AM | The solution is called Wiz 20 and bracers of armor. Try out the craft wonderous item and armor feats. If you want survivability and extra cheese, be a dwarf :D |
| dawgfan07-20-05, 01:22 AM | If you want to be an armored wizard, do not waste a bunch of feats on weapon and armor proficencies, just take one level of fighter. But I still think either Pal2/Sor8/EK10 or Ftr4/Wiz6/EK10 is your best bet. But what I dont understand is at first you just wanted a tank with some light magical skills, then you wanted a main caster who is a tank and wears armor, trust us its best if you just meet in the middle, yet still come out on top. |
| D&DBaby07-20-05, 01:30 AM | If you want to be an armored wizard, do not waste a bunch of feats on weapon and armor proficencies, just take one level of fighter. But I still think either Pal2/Sor8/EK10 or Ftr4/Wiz6/EK10 is your best bet. But what I dont understand is at first you just wanted a tank with some light magical skills, then you wanted a main caster who is a tank and wears armor, trust us its best if you just meet in the middle, yet still come out on top. I guess I will try to do whatever I can to get the EK class. |
| monkeycaster07-20-05, 11:56 AM | Remember, the goal is to get an Armored Caster (not gish). Thanks. An Armored Caster???? That's way different than a Tank. Okay, in order, Go High DEX with your stat selection. Don't worry about Int (except that it be 11 or higher) and go High Cha. Go Wizard Conjurer at Level 1 for Scribe Scroll (for free) and Mage Armor. Make Scrolls of Mage Armor during every day of DT you get. Take the other 19 levels in Sorceror for spells/day. Mage Armor lasts 4 hours per casting, and a scroll will only cost you a handful of gold and a couple of xp. WAY less, even throughout your career, than Bracers of Armor (the +8 ones are 64,000gp, the scrolls are like 25 each, and with as quickly as you're assuming you'll level, you won't need 20,000 of them in your career). If you really must, buy the By level 17, the armor bonus on that spell will be 8, the equivalent of plate armor. If that is not enough for you, you can do one (or more) of the following: 1 Buy Padded armor, masterwork (talk to a good tailor), and enchant it (or have it enchanted) to +5. The armor bonus from this will not stack with the armor bonus from the Mage Armor, but the enhancement bonus will. This will give you an armor bonus of at least 13, at level 17, the equivalent of +5 Full plate. You will have an ASF chance, but it's only 5%, and it's way less than what you would get from trying to wear heavy armor as a caster, even if you went Mithral, and even if you managed to convince your DM to let you take the 'twilight' enhancement (see below). And, it will save you several 1000 gold. 2 Buy Leather Armor, masterwork, and enchant it (or have it enchanted) to +5 and add the Twilight enhancement (from BoED). Twilight removes 10% from the ASF% and means you'll have no failure chance. But, it also means paying for the enhancement as if you were enhancing it to +6. This will cost you way more than #1, but means you never have to worry about spell failure. 3 Buy Mithril Full Plate, enchant it to +5, and if you can convince your DM, add the Twilight enhancement (from BoED). This is sub-par, overly expensive, and is a waste of your time, xp, and money. You will still have an ASF of 15%, and you won't have a better AC than either of the above. In fact, your AC may be much worse, because of the limitation on Dex bonus that heavy armor gives you. AND, it increases your chance of MAD, since you will need to have a high STR to even be able to wear it. If you haven't figured it out, this is a bad idea all around as a caster. 4 And this is the optimal way to do it; buy a masterwork set of clothing, preferrably silk (both for the aesthetics of it, and if your DM allows it, there is an optional rule somewhere that this reduces damage from peircing weapons by 1) and have it enchanted (or enchant it yourself) to +5. Now you have (with the mage armor) the same AC as wearing Full Plate +5, NO ASF, no armor to worry about adding to your weight limit, no max dex bonus, no hit to any skills, and no limit to your movement rate. This is the all around best option. Since you are a full caster anyway, You can also add in the Shield spell (during or right before combat, short duration) for additional AC with no penalty (and you won't have much else to spend level 1 spell slots on), Reduce person (for a size bonus to AC), then if you really need it, add blur/cat's grace/inherent bonus to dex/mirror image/etc et al, and you can have a WAY better AC AND fewer penalties than if you insist on trying to wear full plate. |