Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BrainMole 05-30-05, 07:21 AM	Okay, New character in making and Iīm planning to make it supreme spellcaster with intent to cast both 9th level arcane and divine spells or get high as possible. Preferably evil build, neutral at most. Good bab is always appreciated. Itīs Dragonstar campaing so itīs scifi-fantasy. Scores are: Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 11 Wis: 16 Cha: 16 Feats? My plan at the moment is Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge Your suggestions?
Khazra Reborn 05-30-05, 08:17 AM	If you want to be evil ur priest is better then cleric for these builds...much better!
DisposableHero_ 05-30-05, 08:37 AM	The easiest way to accomplish what your asking is an Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge Build. If you can switch your intelligence and dexterity around, you'll have just enough skill points to qualify for Ur-Priest at level 5 as a human Ex-Cleric1/Sorcerer4 (with the trickery domain), if you then take Ur-Priest2 you can qualify for mystic theurge, and get 9th level divine spells by level 14. However doing so prevents you from getting 9th level arcane spells pre-epic. A better option would be to switch your int and cha around and use wizard for the arcane side of things as they will still get 9th level spells this way, and you'll easily have enough skill points to qualify for UP. As far as base attack, taking persistent spell, divine metamagic (persistent spell) and divine power will allow you to have full base attack +6 strength and 1 extra HP per level all day once you can cast 4th level divine spells. The wizard build would look like this: lvl class Feats/Abilities 1 Ex-Cleric1 Spell Focus (Evil), Iron Will 2 Wizard1 Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard2 Extend Spell 4 Wizard3 5 Wizard4 6 Ur-Priest1 Persistent Spell 7 Ur-Priest2 Rebuke Undead 8 Mystic Theurge1 9 Mystic Theurge2 Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) 10 Mystic Theurge3 11 Mystic Theurge4 12 Mystic Theurge5 Open Feat 13 Mystic Theurge6 14 Mystic Theurge7 15 Mystic Theurge8 Open Feat 16 Wizard5 Open Metamagic/Item Creation Feat 17 Wizard6 18 Wizard7 Open Feat 19 Wizard8 20 Wizard9 I recommend wizard, because qualifying for Ur-Priest with a sorcerer is very difficult. As far as I know, you cannot do it in such a way as to get 9th level spells in both arcane and divine, wizard however is perfectly capable of this, and by the above build hits 9th level divine spells at level 14, and 9th level arcane at level 20.
BrainMole 05-30-05, 09:19 AM	Okay, Thanks for the replies. Few points though. My original scores were: Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 11 Wis: 15 Cha: 14 we use the rule that you can change 2 abilities place presented in the books. So I changed Con and cha and put one point in Wis as I'm 4th character to get the abilities. If I use wizard, I would be dealing with con 11 which at my current DM's campaing is going to get me killed in a first round of action. Last foe we faced was guy with 4 attacks who dealt with those about 90 points of damage per full-round attack. Needless to say that the 2 fourth level characters did make it barely alive, one fled and other one succeeded in Fort save DC 60 and survived (rolled natural 20 :)). I was thinking to lower the spellreqs and make character with nearly 9th level spells. Druid5/Sorcerer4/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic Theurge1 Then with Practiced Spellcaster upped the caster leve of sorcerer spells. Does it work btw on divine spells if taken separetly? What do you think about this build? What feats? -Natural Spell -Practiced Spellcaster
Khazra Reborn 05-30-05, 09:29 AM	If you have acesss to UA, i find wizard1/human paragon3 to be the fastest way to enter ur priest, aswell as giving higher BaB, a bonus feat & +2 to either a casting stat or con. heres a couple of good builds: 1.Master of metamagic wizard1/human paragon3/Ur priest2/mystic theurge8/incantarix6 Feats able learner iron will spellfocus evil 6 metamagic/divine metamagic feats Summed up by name really ;) 2.Really ugly wizard1/human paragon3/Ur priest2/mystic theurge8/geomancer6 Feats able learner iron will spellfocus evil 6 metamagic/divine metamagic feats some wierd & wonderful abilites, more HP 3.bloody cool wizard1/human paragon3/Ur priest2/mystic theurge8/bloodmagus6 Feats able learner iron will spellfocus evil great fortitude improved toughness 4 metamagic/divine metamagic feats better HP, creepy & cool basicly, last 6 leves are anything with full casting ;) A bit different, more interesting maybe: 4.cool evil fore of nature..thingy: ex druid1/wizard6/blighter2/mystic theurge8/geomancer3 NO FEATS REQUIRED uses something other then ur-priest, YAY!
DisposableHero_ 05-30-05, 09:50 AM	Ok, a revision on the Ur-Priest Build if switching to an int based caster is not an option (I think you'd have to put the stat point at level 4 to your int to get the skills anyway, but that isn't nearly as big a commitment) lvl Class Stuff 1 Sorcerer1 Able Learner, Spell Focus (Evil), Summon Familiar 2 Sorcerer2 3 Sorcerer3 Iron Will 4 Sorcerer4 5 Sorcerer5 6 Mind Bender1 Extend Spell, Telepathy 7 Sorcerer6 8 Sorcerer7 9 Sorcerer8 Persistent Spell 10 Sorcerer9 11 Ur-Priest1 12 Ur-Priest2 Rebuke Undead, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) 13 MysticT1 14 MysticT2 15 MysticT3 Open Feat 16 MysticT4 17 MysticT5 18 MysticT6 Open Feat 19 MysticT7 20 MysticT8 Mind Bender gives telepathy, and fixes the fort save, and in combination with able learner fixes up the skill list enough to make it possible to qualify for Ur-Priest in time to get 9th level arcane and divine, but this build gets them much later. 9th level divine spells come in at level 19, and 9th level arcane come in at level 20, final caster levels are 18 arcane and 19 divine, with persistent divine power fixing up your base attack, this time starting at level 14. Another advantage of this build is that it is just like playing a pure sorcerer up until level 11, so despite the lag of 9th level spells until the last two levels it is still reasonable to play (if uninspiring) at early levels. Note to Khazra: Builds 1, 2, and 3 do not work unless by some miracle you have gotten 8 ranks in spellcraft and knowledge (religion) at level 4, that said, Human Paragon (if it gives the required fort save, I don't have access to unearthed arcane at the moment) is strong option.
Khazra Reborn 05-30-05, 12:07 PM	Gah, for some reason i was thinking that max skill level was character level *2 :confused: i suppose take an extra level of wizards & one less final Prc level in each build necropolitan wizard3/cleric3/mystic theurge10/true necromacer4 has worse spells but has cool undeadness. Oh & i recommend not taking druid arcane hierophant because divine metamagc is what makes mystic theurges playable
BrainMole 05-30-05, 01:15 PM	Okay, let's make new demands for the build: -not many classes: I don't like the pure munchkinism where you take a single level of twenty different class. You get the idea. Few classes as possible where some reasonable tale could be attached to. -Martial weapon proficiency prefered along side with decent BaB, so not so much those wizard Bab classes -Heavy armor proficiency: very essential thing, Bigger armor = bigger chance to survive. -Spellcasting as high as possible with both arcane and divine spells with large selection of spells. -High HD, like d8 I know that getting all of the above is nigh impossible but I'd like to know the possibilities which come close and choose from there. I have few days to next game to decide my character so help me out. My current plan is the one above: Drd5/Sor4/ArH10/MTh1
BrainMole 05-30-05, 01:16 PM	Sorry, double post here
deduke 05-30-05, 02:03 PM	My current plan is the one above: Drd5/Sor4/ArH10/MTh1 Why not: Druid 3/Sor 4/ MT 2/AH 10/MT 1 This will give the same bab and better casting. regards deDuke
BrainMole 05-30-05, 02:18 PM	Why not: Druid 3/Sor 4/ MT 2/AH 10/MT 1 This will give the same bab and better casting. regards deDuke Because of the Wildshape which the druid gets at 5th level. The Arcane hierophant gives continues to give the wildshapes per day but it doesn't increase in power though. Not so keen to shape into animals but those wild feats give some nice abilities. Need to ponder a bit which is better.
DisposableHero_ 05-30-05, 02:42 PM	-not many classes: I don't like the pure munchkinism where you take a single level of twenty different class. You get the idea. Few classes as possible where some reasonable tale could be attached to. -Martial weapon proficiency prefered along side with decent BaB, so not so much those wizard Bab classes -Heavy armor proficiency: very essential thing, Bigger armor = bigger chance to survive. -Spellcasting as high as possible with both arcane and divine spells with large selection of spells. -High HD, like d8 Ok, lets try with some UA (I don't know if you're ok with that but here goes anyway) Evil Paladin*2/Battle Sorcerer8/Ur-Priest2/MysticTheurge8 Feats: Spell Focus (Evil) (1), Iron Will (Human), Battle Caster (3), Extend Spell (6), Persistent Spell (9), Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) (12), Practiced Spellcaster (Arcane) (15), Extra Turning (18) * - Either Paladin of Tyrrany or Paladin of Slaughter, I don't have UA on hand so I can't recall if they get Cha to saves like pallys/blackguards do or not. If they don't Fighter 2 might be better to snatch up Improved Initiative and Improved Toughness What you get: Base Attack: +13, can be enhanced to +20 with divine power Hit Dice: 10+1d10+10d8+8d4+con*20, again enhanced by numerous divine spells Casting: 8th level Arcane Spells (CL 20), 9th level Divine Spells (CL 18) Armor: Ability to Ignore Arcane Spell Failure in medium armor, proficiency with all armors and shields (other than tower shields) Classes: Two classes and two prestige classes, and a good story, a mighty dark sorcerer who learns to steal the power of the gods. Other Stuff: Divine persistent spells, minimum 1 a day for divine power to add hit points strength and crank base attack up to 20, with the ability to use huge charisma or nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to do this more than once. Options: Without unearthed arcana this might still work (haven't checked the skills) as Fighter2/Sorcerer8/Ur-Priest2/MysticTheurge8
BrainMole 05-30-05, 02:58 PM	Quite nice build there. I stucks me that while cleric loses all his powers when becoming a Ur-priest, what about paladins granted powers? If one reads the rules as they are, he keeps em but to me they should be taken away as the character no longer serves a god.
DisposableHero_ 05-30-05, 03:04 PM	It doesn't strike me as that odd. The flavor of the Ur-Priest is that he steals divine powers from the gods, while this means he must revoke any previous divine spellcasting, I think it makes a certain amount of sense that with everything else he takes, he could take a paladin's divine grace along with it.
deduke 05-30-05, 03:18 PM	Because of the Wildshape which the druid gets at 5th level. The Arcane hierophant gives continues to give the wildshapes per day but it doesn't increase in power though. Not so keen to shape into animals but those wild feats give some nice abilities. Need to ponder a bit which is better. In the example in races of the wild the druid 4/wizard 3/AH X gets wildshape at lvl 8. So how i read it is that a chracter which will get wildshape gets it from arcane hierophant at the approrpiate level.
BrainMole 05-30-05, 03:45 PM	I like the paladin build a lot. It gives almost everything I need. Clerics boost spells will be nice to compensate the low dex and str. Any idea for race(human probably) and feats to take?
BrainMole 05-31-05, 07:42 AM	Okay, the race is Human but what about feats Feats: Spell Focus (Evil) (b), Iron Will (Human), Extend Spell (b), Persistent Spell (1), Battle Caster (3), Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) (9), Extra Turning (12), Practiced Spellcaster (Arcane) (15), Practiced Spellcaster (Divine) (18) I have taken 2 flaws (Murky eyed, Unreactive) Are these okay or are there better ones available. Also the scifi setting gives the opportunity to use firearms so is there some nice feats to it or should I stay more focused on spellcasting as I can boost myself with cleric spells.
BrainMole 05-31-05, 02:37 PM	It's me again doing the monolog. The feats above pretty much get the job done but any suggestions on the Sorcerer spells, I like to have them well chosen at the first time. So far I chose: 0: Distrupt Undead, Prestidigation, Mage Hand, Arcane Mark 1: True strike So, what spells to choose on later levels, obviously not the spells which appear on cleric list but is there some spells which must appear on the combat-focused casters spell list?
DisposableHero_ 05-31-05, 03:45 PM	Well, despite being a dual caster, the early stages of this character's development are very much a warrior/mage type, so I suggest checking out the spell suggestions in: The Comprehensive 3.5 Arcane Gish Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=150451) and Character Build Spotlight: Gish (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309) Just a footnote on your feat selection: The level order you have there does not work. Because neither Battle Sorcerer nor either of the evil paladins have bluff as a class skill (I think, I don't have UA on hand), you must wait until level 9 (when you can have 6 ranks in a cross class skill) to gain entry to Ur-Priest, this means you cannot take Divine Metamagic at 9th because you cannot Turn or Rebuke Undead. I suggest dropping Practiced Spellcaster (Divine) into the 9th level slot and bumping everything else up 3 levels. If I'm wrong on the pallys and bluff, you can do it the way you have it there by taking Ur-Priest1 at 8th and Ur-Priest2 at 9th to just qualify in time. If also by freak accident one of those evil pallys has knowledge (the planes) as a class skill too, you can accomplish Ur-Priest at 6 and 7 and the build is much stronger as you'll be able to get 9th level divine spells by level 14
BrainMole 05-31-05, 04:38 PM	So what would be your suggestion on how to increase the bluff skill. I could always take extra level on paladin or battle sorcerer but that doesn't give me great kicks. I was thinking taking a few levels of some Sorcerer focused PrC which would show how he descending deeper in forbidden knowledge. Shadow adept is one which comes to mind. Is there any others? Something where Know(Planes) and Bluff are class skills and uses medium bab
DisposableHero_ 05-31-05, 05:46 PM	Mindbender comes to mind as a good one level dip that would let you pick up some slack on the skills requirements, but it has some hefty ones of its own, so its likely not an optimal solution. Replacing the paladin levels with swashbuckler would handle the bluff requirement, but you wouldn't get the armor profs.
DisposableHero_ 05-31-05, 06:27 PM	Human Paragon is the answer, drop the paladin levels for 1 human paragon and 1 fighter to maintain 9th level arcanes at 20th Build like this: 1: Human Paragon1 - Spell Focus (evil), Iron Will, Extend Spell (flaw), Persistent Spell (flaw), pick bluff as your adaptive learning skill, distribute your 20 skill ranks like this: Bluff 4, Knowledge (The Planes) 4, Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4 2: Fighter1 - Bonus Feat of you choice, put 1 point in bluff (5) and 2 in Knowledge (the Planes) cross class (5) 3: Battle Sorcerer1 - Battle Caster, 2 ranks in spellcraft (6), 1 in Bluff (6) 4: Human Paragon2 - Practiced Spellcaster (Arcane), 1 rank in Knowledge Arcana (5), 1 in spellcraft (7), 3 in knowledge religion (7), +1 charisma 5: Human Paragon3 - +2 wisdom, finish the Ur-Priest Prereq skills 6: Ur-Priest1 - Practiced Spellcaster (Divine) 7: Ur-Priest2 8: Battle Sorcerer2 - +1 charisma 9: Mystic Theurge1 - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) Continue until you get to Human Paragon3/Battle Sorcerer6/Fighter1/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge8 you lose charisma to saves but you smooth out the skills and get a couple of extra feats and a bonus to wisdom (or charisma is you prefer)
Megrim_Lord 05-31-05, 06:55 PM	dual casting tank? sounds like Fochlucan Lyrist material to me...
BrainMole 06-01-05, 01:15 AM	That build would lose some of background story potential the paladin build had. Nicely pointed the Bluff part, never noticed that myself. I was considering something like Pal2/Sor5/Human paragon3/Urp2/Mystic8 build but it's caster level stays at 17th so no 9th level arcane spells. Some nice darker prestige with Bluff and Knowledge(Planes) as class skills perhaps with no feat requirements which doesnīt lose that one caster level.
catharz 06-01-05, 01:49 AM	Fun fact of the day: Megrim_Lord's sig is 50 times longer than his post, no joke! As for the build... Arcane heirophant is awesome for dual-casters. And if you read carefully, you'll notice that a Druid/AH doesn't need wildshape a a druid to get is as an arcane heirophant. I have no idea what material you can or can't use, but it looks like a lot. Here is what is (IMO) the best Arcane+Divine spellcaster build that doesn't use Ur-priest: Bamboo spirit folk [OA] Shugenja [CD] 1/Sha'ir [Drg 315] 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane heirophant [RotW] 10 1:Shu 1 |----------------|+0|0/0/2 |6 |----|1 2:Shu 1/S'r 1 |----------|+0|0/0/4 |6+1d4 ||1/1 4:Shu 1/S'r 3 |----------|+1|1/1/5 |6+3d4 ||1/3 5:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 1 |-----|+1|1/1/7 |6+4d4 ||2/4 10:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6 |----|+4|3/3/10|6+9d4 ||7/9 11:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6/AH 1 |+4|?/3/12|6+9d4+? ||8/10 20:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6/AH 10|+?|?/6/? |6+9d4+?|17/19 Both classes cast using charisma, one is spontanious and one is weird. If you can get a Wildshape amulet from Magic of Faerun, you get to Wildshape as level -5 too! If that doesn't work out, Human Sha'ir [Drg 315] 3/Shugenja [CD] 1/Mystic Theurge 10 is good too.
BrainMole 06-01-05, 05:02 AM	Fun fact of the day: Megrim_Lord's sig is 50 times longer than his post, no joke! As for the build... Arcane heirophant is awesome for dual-casters. And if you read carefully, you'll notice that a Druid/AH doesn't need wildshape a a druid to get is as an arcane heirophant. I have no idea what material you can or can't use, but it looks like a lot. Here is what is (IMO) the best Arcane+Divine spellcaster build that doesn't use Ur-priest: Bamboo spirit folk [OA] Shugenja [CD] 1/Sha'ir [Drg 315] 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane heirophant [RotW] 10 1:Shu 1 |----------------|+0|0/0/2 |6 |----|1 2:Shu 1/S'r 1 |----------|+0|0/0/4 |6+1d4 ||1/1 4:Shu 1/S'r 3 |----------|+1|1/1/5 |6+3d4 ||1/3 5:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 1 |-----|+1|1/1/7 |6+4d4 ||2/4 10:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6 |----|+4|3/3/10|6+9d4 ||7/9 11:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6/AH 1 |+4|?/3/12|6+9d4+? ||8/10 20:Shu 1/S'r 3/MT 6/AH 10|+?|?/6/? |6+9d4+?|17/19 Both classes cast using charisma, one is spontanious and one is weird. If you can get a Wildshape amulet from Magic of Faerun, you get to Wildshape as level -5 too! If that doesn't work out, Human Sha'ir [Drg 315] 3/Shugenja [CD] 1/Mystic Theurge 10 is good too. Okay, Itīs scifi-fantasy campaing so Bamboo spirit would be quite difficult to fit in properly. Also I donīt like the OA races, too weird(?). Also for the classes, I donīt have access to Dragon material and I recall I didnīt fancy the Shugenja. Arcane Herophant is great class though and with some awesome build I might consider it something like this... Druid 3/Battle Sorcerer4/Mystic Theurge3/Arcane Hierophant10 or something.
DisposableHero_ 06-01-05, 08:19 AM	That build would lose some of background story potential the paladin build had. Nicely pointed the Bluff part, never noticed that myself. I was considering something like Pal2/Sor5/Human paragon3/Urp2/Mystic8 build but it's caster level stays at 17th so no 9th level arcane spells. Some nice darker prestige with Bluff and Knowledge(Planes) as class skills perhaps with no feat requirements which doesnīt lose that one caster level. Well, if you'd rather lose the 9th level arcanes than the paladin that's cool, Human Paragon is definitely the easiest way to smooth out the skills. I suggested going to fighter because you could maintain 9th level arcanes that way. Be sure to take human paragon at 1st level though, as its 4+ int skills will do you the most good there, and it will set a class skill for you for your whole progression (I chose bluff because it is the highest skill rank requirement not covered by the battle sorc's skills). The bonus feat and ability boost are well worth the time you spend. As for prestige classes, Mindbender from complete arcane is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, giving telepathy and +2 to fort and will at first and both bluff and all knowledge skills as class skills, but its only really useful as a 1 level dip as after 1st level you lose caster levels. It has a requirement of 4 ranks each in bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, and intimidate however, so it cannot be used to improve your ability to meet the skill requirements like human paragon can.