Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Crane 03-08-06, 04:39 PM	I've played very little DnD--perhaps a grand total of about 5 sessions--but I tend to gravitate towards the rulebooks if I'm in a bookstore with nothing to do, so as a result, I've read most of the material that's out there. I own the 3.5 DMG and PHB, but that's it. I have a character whose background, attitude, backstory, etc, have been in development for quite awhile. I'm having trouble pinning down a build for him, though. Disclaimer: I'm not in a group right now, so this is all just messing around for the time being. Still, I'd like to have some clue where I'm going when I do find a crowd to play with. I want something with good survivability and offensive power, enough toys to be self-sufficient (or nearly so), and it needs to fit a few other criteria (below). Here's what I'm working with. Race: Drow Region: Menzzoberanyr makes the most sense; his backstory has him originating as just another grunt in the House armies. However, he's since ended up stranded on the surface world, so the Cormanthor rules might be a better fit for him. AL: CN Rolls: 12, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15 Current ability distribution (+2 Dex, Int, Cha racial; -2 Con): STR 14 DEX 16 CON 13 WIS 13 INT 14 CHA 17 Concept: AKA the RP rules for the build Primarily a melee fighter. Uses speed and power in equal measure, and tends towards the heaviest armor he can equip that still allows him full range of movement (+3 DEX; planned gear progression is Breastplate, Mith Full Plate, Glassteel Full Plate). As far as weaponry, leaning towards reach weapons for two reasons. 1) Survivability, since he'll have low HP due to LA and his hybrid nature 2) They look cool. :cool: I'd also like reasonably powerful casting, mostly with the intent of gaining an advantage--buffs, teleports, illusions, and a few direct damage spells. I was originally leaning towards a Cleric for the combo of casting and armor, but his personality doesn't lend itself towards being in someone's service (arrogant bastard). I'd much prefer a build that's playable starting at level 1 (party will be level 3) My Current Build Idea First a note; this requires the LA buy-off rules, and it helps if I can get a DM to house rule that I can take Ftr as my favored class (due to background). If not, I just take a couple more levels in it to keep it near Battle Sorceror, and take more Eldritch Knight levels rather than Battle Sorceror, which I was avoiding because it gives me less HP (and only about 1 more to BAB). Fighter(4), Battle Sorcerer(12), Eldritch Knight(4) Ftr x2 Btl Sor x6 Eld Knight x2 Ftr x2 Eld Knight x2 Btl Sor x6 Feats 1) Daylight Adaptation Ftr 1) Ex Prof: Heavy Poleaxe (or better, Dwarven Warpike if I can snag it without the DM raising an eyebrow. Names can always be changed, though...) Ftr 2) Shorten Grip (Dragon 331/Dragon Compendium Vol 1) 3) Battle Caster 6) Combat Reflexes 9) Power Attack Eld Knight 1) Leap Attack 12) Practiced Spellcaster Ftr 4) --open-- 15) --open-- 18) --open-- ...thus far it leaves me with +2 BAB over a Cleric, +1 av HP, and at character level 20 I cast spells as a Battle Sorceror 15 with a CL of 19. As far as spell selection, leaning towards Shield, Dimension Door, Fly, (greater) Invis, and a few pyrotechnics. I'm sure this is far from ideal, though. Feedback? I'm not looking for a completely uber setup that throws concept out the window, but I do want something that won't be an utter hindrance to the group or to my soloing ability. For flavor, a couple sketches of him. http://photobucket.com/albums/v138/ghost_sentinel/?action=view&current=Notebook_06.jpg http://photobucket.com/albums/v138/ghost_sentinel/?action=view&current=Notebook_08.jpg
Caelic 03-08-06, 05:10 PM	The main problem I see is one you've already identified. With a hefty LA, you're already hurting for hit points. Before I make any suggestions, I need to ask: it's obvious that at least some of Unearthed Arcana is allowed, but how much of it?
Adrian_Crane 03-09-06, 05:54 AM	As I noted, I'm not yet in group, so right now I'm just messing around with trying to get a workable build. As far as UA though, the Battle Sorceror bit is too good to pass up, and I'd like the LA buyoff rules as well, but otherwise I'm trying to keep content from that book to a minimum. I suppose I could take Improved Toughness as one of the open feats to help with the HP loss. Also planning on upping his CON score to 14 as his first increase.
PhoenixInferno 03-09-06, 10:35 AM	Did you read this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15045) or this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309)?
Adrian_Crane 03-09-06, 11:25 AM	Did you read this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15045) or this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309)? First, dead link. If it's the Gish Handbook, yes, looked it over. Second, haven't read, thanks for pointing it out. I'll look through it.
Khazra Reborn 03-09-06, 11:28 AM	Drow are never worth their LA. I'd go as far as to say they "suck". Why do you want drow, is it only for RP reasons? If so then try and convince your DM to let you play the character as a normal elf with dark skin and light sensitivity because that LA sucks! Without an LA, even straight battle sorcerer is quite good though somethinging like fighter1/battlesorcerer16/spellsword3 may be better.
Adrian_Crane 03-09-06, 01:05 PM	The race choice is largely RP. As to the LA, hoping if I can get the character into a group, I can convince the DM to use the LA buyoff rules. As to the Ftr 1/Btl Sor 16/Spellsword 3 build, why the levels in Spellsword? Battle Caster already expands the armored casting to include Medium armor, which is as heavy as I'm interested in.
PhaedrusXY 03-09-06, 01:18 PM	As to the Ftr 1/Btl Sor 16/Spellsword 3 build, why the levels in Spellsword? Battle Caster already expands the armored casting to include Medium armor, which is as heavy as I'm interested in.I might go with 1 level of Spellsword, because there is little reason not to (+1 BAB, d10 hit dice, +1 CL, +2 Fort and Will), assuming you have the level of fighter. Also, the -10% ASF will let you use a shield. I agree that I certainly wouldn't take more than 1 level, however. And even that is questionable. I think you're probably off just going straight battlesorcerer, though. Sacred Exorcist is nice to add onto that, however, if you can meet the prereqs. I had a guy play something like a Ftr1/Battlesorc4/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist4/WitchHunter2 in a game I ran once (that may not be right, it was a while ago and that's from memory. was definitely higher level, but I don't remember in what...). He was an Aasimar, and ran around Polymorphed into a Planetar all the time. Was a very tough character. :D
MechaboyDos 03-09-06, 01:27 PM	Spellsword is a d8 HD, just thought I'd point that out. Other than that though yeah, why not dip into it a level? Good HP, good Fort and Will saves, +1 caster level, and Ignore 10% ASF will let you use a shield if that's your thing. Also, Spellsword has all Knowledge skills, allowing you to pump a few skill points into meeting pre-reqs that you might be aiming for.
Adrian_Crane 03-09-06, 01:28 PM	I might go with 1 level of Spellsword, because there is little reason not to (+1 BAB, d10 hit dice, +1 CL, +2 Fort and Will), assuming you have the level of fighter. Also, the -10% ASF will let you use a shield. Hm...good point. Beats a fluff Eld Knight level. EDIT: well, d8 still beats d6. Definitely gonna work that in, then. EDIT #2: Regarding shields, can you use a buckler with a 2h reach polearm? Does it just follow 2 weapon fighting rules where the bonus only applies if you haven't attacked the previous round? Something that just popped into my head, how to gish usually deal with familiars? Use alternate rules that give you something in the place of a familiar, or just run around with an animal that's a few special abilities short of a full list? A weasel would be amusing to have as a sidekick, but I dislike the idea that dead weasel = bam, exp hit.
PhaedrusXY 03-09-06, 01:33 PM	Something that just popped into my head, how to gish usually deal with familiars? Use alternate rules that give you something in the place of a familiar, or just run around with an animal that's a few special abilities short of a full list? A weasel would be amusing to have as a sidekick, but I dislike the idea that dead weasel = bam, exp hit.Gish familiars are actually better than normal familiars in all the ways that matter. They have better hit points and base attack bonuses, and so can actually contribute to fighting in a meaningful way. Their masters are also usually heavily buffed... something they can benefit from via Share Spells. Sharing Polymorph with your familiar and turning it into something you can use as a mount (like some kind of dinosaur) is one thing to do with them. See the "Getting the most out of your familiar" and "clever uses of share spells" threads for more on that stuff. (the second is in my sig, and the first can be found via the Opt. Library)
MechaboyDos 03-09-06, 01:34 PM	EDIT #2: Regarding shields, can you use a buckler with a 2h reach polearm? Does it just follow 2 weapon fighting rules where the bonus only applies if you haven't attacked the previous round? You can use a Buckler with 2H weapons, but you take a -1 penalty on all your attacks and unless you take the feat Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior you also lose the Buckler's AC bonus when you attack. Something that just popped into my head, how to gish usually deal with familiars? Use alternate rules that give you something in the place of a familiar, or just run around with an animal that's a few special abilities short of a full list? A weasel would be amusing to have as a sidekick, but I dislike the idea that dead weasel = bam, exp hit. Most of the time a Familiar isn't really worth it for a Gish, although I personally like the Raven since it makes a good short range scout and it can also communicate with you on its own since it automatically speaks a language and you don't have to worry about not having enough Sorcerer levels to get that ability. EDIT: Phaedrus brings up good points though. I should go check out that thread myself...
Adrian_Crane 03-09-06, 01:38 PM	Heh heh...thanks for the ideas! I have to look into this. Riding around on a Large Weasel mount would be too awesome for words... :D
Sang-Drax 03-09-06, 02:20 PM	I'd never ever go Battle Sorcerer again. It's horrible. You lose one spell per day and one spell known per level and what do youo gain from it? 1 or 2 BAB. Simply put, not worth it. Using LA buyoff rules, drow i sone the few non-broken +2 LA races you can play with. It's a fair trade; if your Dm doesn't allow it, I highly suggest trying to play a lesser Drow (PGtF, IIRC) or a half-drow. As for the build, the good old Fig2/Sor4/Spellsword 3/EK 7/Sacred Exorcist 4 or Fig1/Sor6/Spellsword1/EK 8/SE 4 are much better choices. Honestly. If you do opt for the battle sorcerer, however, don't forget to pick the battle caster feat from CA, to cast spells in mithril full plate (I haven't read through all the thread, maybe it's already your plan).
lostone 03-09-06, 02:27 PM	I highly suggest trying to play a lesser Drow (PGtF, IIRC) or a half-drow.I was going to suggest this too. Lesser Drow are on p191 in the appendix, PGtF. In the past I've played a couple drow in 3.x and have found that they are not worth the +2 LA. +1 maybe, but most of their abilities I don't end up using past the first couple levels anyway (when my builds start holding their own in melee or whatever their purpose is and the LA is not such a penalty on the hit points). The Lesser drow or half-drow is definitely the way to go.
Adrian_Crane 03-10-06, 06:54 AM	I'll look into the Lesser Drow thing,thanks very much. As to the Sacred Exorcist suggestion in the build, not so sure about that one. For one thing, it requires my character going from CN to CG by the time he gets to it, which isn't too much of a stretch and was even somewhat the plan for him...but it also states "only characters judged by their church to be exemplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made sacred exorcists.". Does Eilistraae sanction the class or are DM's pretty flexible on that part? Also, he just isn't THAT religious. Though by the time he's ready to take levels in this class, he may well have run into his nemesis...who happens to be undead after a rather unhappy incident...hrm. That's not too bad by way of IC justification. I'll have to think on it. Looking at the Character Build Spotlight on gish, I see the point about Divine Might. Mmmm...Charisma bonus to weapon damage. Tasty. EDIT: While looking up the class, found the following line on spell progression: "If the sacred exorcist did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric." So that would mean Arcane progression halts...
Sang-Drax 03-10-06, 08:09 AM	EDIT: While looking up the class, found the following line on spell progression: "If the sacred exorcist did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric." So that would mean Arcane progression halts... There are inummerous sources in Complete Divine stating that Sacred Exorcist does advance arcane spellcasting. I wonder where did you find the above line - I can't find it anywhere in the class.
Adrian_Crane 03-10-06, 08:25 AM	Internet. Must be from an older version of the class, then.
Sang-Drax 03-10-06, 10:03 AM	Internet. Must be from an older version of the class, then. Even back in Defenders of the Faith the Sacred Exorcist could advance arcane casting as well as divine. The line you've transcribed seems to be from DotF Contemplative.
DDogwood 03-10-06, 10:33 AM	A fighter/mage can be tricky to play, especially if you don't have a lot of game experience. I'd actually recommend that you take a look at Bard or Hexblade for this character - they both give very viable abilities, and a fair to good mix of spellcasting power. Bard is probably the better of the two choices - a lot of people are turned off by the image of a lute-playing, prancing bard, but that's a narrow view of what the class can be. Remember that Perform can include things like "Oratory", which could be as simple as your character's ability to make long, intimidating speeches (the "To The Pain" speech that Wesley makes in The Princess Bride would be a good example of using Oratory to Fascinate).