Arcane/Psionic Thrallherd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane/Psionic Thrallherd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShadowCub
11-22-05, 04:27 PM After more thought....

Wizard 1/ Psion (Kineticist) 3/ Cerebramancer 2/ Thallherd 1/Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1

First feat would be Precocious Apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a). Feat at either 3rd or 6th level would be Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink). Somewhere in the 20 levels would also (likely) be both Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Psion).

That's through CL 8. Remaining 12 levels split between the remaining 8 levels of Cerebremancer and 4 more levels of Marshal (to help rally/buff the Thrall & Believers).

Decent Synergy, I think. I'd be open to Sorcerer instead of Wizard and possibly Wilder instead of Psion for the all CHA synergy goodness....

Still seeking thoughts/input on this type of build.
Nifft
11-22-05, 06:09 PM Er... why? What's the payoff?

Assuming your DM didn't read the errata which clearly states that Precosious Apprentice does not do what you want it to do, what does being a 3rd level Wizard give you that's better than being a Psion level +1 for the rest of your life? 5th level Psions are nothing to sneer at, and you could have been using your Feats for something fun.

-- N
ShadowCub
11-22-05, 06:50 PM Assuming your DM didn't read the errata which clearly states that Precosious Apprentice does not do what you want it to do,

Uhm, per Complete Arcane, Precosious Apprentice grants access to a 2nd level spell.

Per Expanded Psionic Handbook, the preq for Cerebramancer are ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells, manifest 2nd level powers, and a couple of Knowledge skills.

I just checked the eratta for both books, and neither the feat nor the PrC have been updated. So how does Wiz 1/Psion 3 (with Precious Apprentice) not grant access to the Cerebramancer PrC?

What I was wondering if I could find would be the Divine & Psionic equivalents that might allow for a Psion 1/Wiz 3/Cerebramancer X build. Or a Cleric 1/Psion 3/Psionic Theurge X build. But that's a separate issue, isn't it?

what does being a 3rd level Wizard give you that's better than being a Psion level +1 for the rest of your life? 5th level Psions are nothing to sneer at, and you could have been using your Feats for something fun.Well, the build would be heading towards Wiz 1/Psion 3/Cerebramancer 2/Thrallherd 1/Cerebramancer 3-10/ XXX 5.

At 15th level, such a character would be casting as a Wizard 11 and manifesting as a Psion 13. By "loosing" that level of Psion, they've traded 2 powers & 23 power points for 6th level Arcane spells. In fact, the number of additional Arcane spells exceeds the lost powers by over 10 to 1!

With a CHA of 18, the single level of Thrallherd adds a Level 14 Thrall as an assistant/apprentice and a small army of Believers (50-1st, 5-2nd, 3-3rd, 2-4th, 1-5th) as an unparalled meat shield . (They die? No sweat. Wait 24 hours and they're back!)

And the remaining levels can still go to improve the Psion abilities, or the Wizard abilities, or another PrC entirely. (And with that CHA 18, only a single level of Thrallherd is needed to max out the chart by CL 20.)

I tend to think the opportunities created by having the vastly increased number of "spells/powers" warrants the slight decrease in the maximum ability on one side. Just as I think the benefits of the Thrall/Believers outweigh the loss of the (additional) loss of maximum power.

And as for feats, assuming Psion(Telepath) it only takes 1 and that got an extra Arcane spell slot and a +2 to spellcraft checks. For any other Psion specialty, PsyWar or Wilder instead it would take an additional feat (Exapnded Knowledge: Mindlink) to get into Thrallherd, but that gives an additional Psionic power and greater flexability in defining the flavor of the psychic half of the character and thus more options for the Arcane-Psionic synergy.
catharz
11-22-05, 07:56 PM 1) Charisma is mostly useless to thrallherds. A Psion 5/Thrallherd 10 has a 'leadership' score of 25 with a Cha of 10.

2) You could be a Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Thrallherd 9 or a Psion 5/Thrallherd 10. One is effectively a 3rd level wizard, a 13th level psion, and a 14th level wizard. The other is effectively a 13th level psion, a 14th level wizard, and a 13th level psion or wizard (or whatever). Which would you rather be?
ShadowCub
11-22-05, 09:10 PM 1) Charisma is mostly useless to thrallherds. A Psion 5/Thrallherd 10 has a 'leadership' score of 25 with a Cha of 10.

True, but is pretty week other than the capabilites of their Thrall/Believers. A high CHA also has other benefits to various skills and such beyond the Thrallherd.

2) You could be a Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Thrallherd 9 or a Psion 5/Thrallherd 10. One is effectively a 3rd level wizard, a 13th level psion, and a 14th level wizard. The other is effectively a 13th level psion, a 14th level wizard, and a 13th level psion or wizard (or whatever). Which would you rather be?

Neither. I'd rather be the Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebramancer 10/Thrallherd 1.

13th level Psion, 11th level Wizard (15th level with Practiced Spellcaster), with a buff Thrall and a small army of Believers.

Almost as powerful as a Psion 15 -or- Wizard 15, but with the combination of abilities I think it's stronger than either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowCub 11-22-05, 04:27 PM	After more thought.... Wizard 1/ Psion (Kineticist) 3/ Cerebramancer 2/ Thallherd 1/Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1 First feat would be Precocious Apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a). Feat at either 3rd or 6th level would be Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink). Somewhere in the 20 levels would also (likely) be both Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Psion). That's through CL 8. Remaining 12 levels split between the remaining 8 levels of Cerebremancer and 4 more levels of Marshal (to help rally/buff the Thrall & Believers). Decent Synergy, I think. I'd be open to Sorcerer instead of Wizard and possibly Wilder instead of Psion for the all CHA synergy goodness.... Still seeking thoughts/input on this type of build.
Nifft 11-22-05, 06:09 PM	Er... why? What's the payoff? Assuming your DM didn't read the errata which clearly states that Precosious Apprentice does not do what you want it to do, what does being a 3rd level Wizard give you that's better than being a Psion level +1 for the rest of your life? 5th level Psions are nothing to sneer at, and you could have been using your Feats for something fun. -- N
ShadowCub 11-22-05, 06:50 PM	Assuming your DM didn't read the errata which clearly states that Precosious Apprentice does not do what you want it to do, Uhm, per Complete Arcane, Precosious Apprentice grants access to a 2nd level spell. Per Expanded Psionic Handbook, the preq for Cerebramancer are ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells, manifest 2nd level powers, and a couple of Knowledge skills. I just checked the eratta for both books, and neither the feat nor the PrC have been updated. So how does Wiz 1/Psion 3 (with Precious Apprentice) not grant access to the Cerebramancer PrC? What I was wondering if I could find would be the Divine & Psionic equivalents that might allow for a Psion 1/Wiz 3/Cerebramancer X build. Or a Cleric 1/Psion 3/Psionic Theurge X build. But that's a separate issue, isn't it? what does being a 3rd level Wizard give you that's better than being a Psion level +1 for the rest of your life? 5th level Psions are nothing to sneer at, and you could have been using your Feats for something fun.Well, the build would be heading towards Wiz 1/Psion 3/Cerebramancer 2/Thrallherd 1/Cerebramancer 3-10/ XXX 5. At 15th level, such a character would be casting as a Wizard 11 and manifesting as a Psion 13. By "loosing" that level of Psion, they've traded 2 powers & 23 power points for 6th level Arcane spells. In fact, the number of additional Arcane spells exceeds the lost powers by over 10 to 1! With a CHA of 18, the single level of Thrallherd adds a Level 14 Thrall as an assistant/apprentice and a small army of Believers (50-1st, 5-2nd, 3-3rd, 2-4th, 1-5th) as an unparalled meat shield . (They die? No sweat. Wait 24 hours and they're back!) And the remaining levels can still go to improve the Psion abilities, or the Wizard abilities, or another PrC entirely. (And with that CHA 18, only a single level of Thrallherd is needed to max out the chart by CL 20.) I tend to think the opportunities created by having the vastly increased number of "spells/powers" warrants the slight decrease in the maximum ability on one side. Just as I think the benefits of the Thrall/Believers outweigh the loss of the (additional) loss of maximum power. And as for feats, assuming Psion(Telepath) it only takes 1 and that got an extra Arcane spell slot and a +2 to spellcraft checks. For any other Psion specialty, PsyWar or Wilder instead it would take an additional feat (Exapnded Knowledge: Mindlink) to get into Thrallherd, but that gives an additional Psionic power and greater flexability in defining the flavor of the psychic half of the character and thus more options for the Arcane-Psionic synergy.
catharz 11-22-05, 07:56 PM	1) Charisma is mostly useless to thrallherds. A Psion 5/Thrallherd 10 has a 'leadership' score of 25 with a Cha of 10. 2) You could be a Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Thrallherd 9 or a Psion 5/Thrallherd 10. One is effectively a 3rd level wizard, a 13th level psion, and a 14th level wizard. The other is effectively a 13th level psion, a 14th level wizard, and a 13th level psion or wizard (or whatever). Which would you rather be?
ShadowCub 11-22-05, 09:10 PM	1) Charisma is mostly useless to thrallherds. A Psion 5/Thrallherd 10 has a 'leadership' score of 25 with a Cha of 10. True, but is pretty week other than the capabilites of their Thrall/Believers. A high CHA also has other benefits to various skills and such beyond the Thrallherd. 2) You could be a Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Thrallherd 9 or a Psion 5/Thrallherd 10. One is effectively a 3rd level wizard, a 13th level psion, and a 14th level wizard. The other is effectively a 13th level psion, a 14th level wizard, and a 13th level psion or wizard (or whatever). Which would you rather be? Neither. I'd rather be the Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebramancer 10/Thrallherd 1. 13th level Psion, 11th level Wizard (15th level with Practiced Spellcaster), with a buff Thrall and a small army of Believers. Almost as powerful as a Psion 15 -or- Wizard 15, but with the combination of abilities I think it's stronger than either.