Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 11-26-03, 02:11 AM	Stats: 6th level Human Bard Str: 11, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 17 (18 w/ an item I have). HP: 37. AC: 19 (4Dex + 5 Armor, a +1 Mithral Chain shirt). Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Improved Initiative. Skills: Spread out, but I've nearly maxed Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Perform,m Sense Motive, Tumble, and UMD. Weapons: a MW Rapier and a +1 Sonic Shortbow. My party is a bit... odd. We started with a fairly balanced/standard part (2 fighters, a Monk, a Cleric, a Rodue, and a Sorcerer). Then, everyone wanted to chance ('cept me, the Sor) and suddenly we had too many Mages. So now, some of the people are changing again, and now are party is/will be a Samurai, a Cleric, a Wiz/Artificer (homebrew, I think), Dragon Disciple, Barbarian, and soon My Bard. And the Wiz/Artificer is thinking about changing. I want my bard's spells to be mainly utility w/ a few cures mixed in (obviously). Basically, i'd like to be able to use them to get him out of tight spots. Here's what i've got so far: Cantrips: Daze, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation. 1st-level: Cure Light Wounds, Charm Person, Feather Fall, Grease 2nd-level: Cure Moderate Wounds, Hold Person, _______. Now I've been having some trouble picking these out. I've never played a support caster (read: bard) before and I'm not sure which spells would be useful. Our cleric is currently neutral and an inflict-spontaneous caster, but he's gonna try to get an atonement and switch to a good god, so Cure spells arn't a necesity (although they would still be quite useful). I hate picking out spells, esoecially for Bards, since not only are their choices extremely limited but they also don't get to swap 'em out. Am I missing something? Is there some vital spell that I've forgotten? And are my feats (specifically Quick Draw) solid?
Snow Savant 11-26-03, 02:23 AM	I've played many utility Bard & Mage characters in the past. Since you are 6th level, you have the Bard Song ability of Suggestion, therefore, Charm Person really becomes redundant as a spell choice. I would replace it with one of the most under-utilized spells around, the figment spell Silent Image. Myself and others on the CO board have posted a number of great tactical treatise on how to best utilize this spell by making your opponents waste valuable actions "interacting" with the figment (under duress obviously, as your party is attacking the creature while it is trying to figure out the figment thereby not attacking *you*). For a 2nd level spell, the dual-usage aspect of Glitterdust is immensely helpful. And it scales well in offensive efficacy as you move up in levels. Other valuable 2nd level Bard spells are the various buffs (Cat's Grace, etc.), Alter Self (for your survival and to let you fly ala the Avariel), Minor Image (if you opt to pass on Silent Image), Shatter (again, under-rated ... you can Shatter *tons* of dangerous things on an incoming foe), and the utilitarian divination, Detect Thoughts. If ajudicating figments (Silent Image, etc.) is challenging for you and/or your DM, go to the Spells and CO board archives and do a search to learn the best tactics on how to best manipulate and use these spells. Best regards, Snow:)
Boondoggle 11-26-03, 05:37 AM	but they also don't get to swap 'em out. Quite wrong: "Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level thereafter..." Spell swapping isn't a seperate class feature, it's part of gaining spell levels. Drop the quickdraw & imp. initiative feats, pick up rapid shot and either subsonics or lingering song (S&S). As you advance, you'll rely on your bow less and less, but the ability to launch a good volley never goes out of style. You needn't worry about ranks in tumble unless your group is constantly being ambushed. Staying out of melee isn't terribly difficult (especially if you have slippers of spider climbing). You are also missing spellcraft. It's not crutial to party survival since (I assume) the mage will have it, but it's always nice to have a second character with the skill. You do have 5 ranks in know(history), too, right? Also, I don't see listen as one of your maxed skills. Listen is a skill that should always be maxed right up there with perform & sense motive. I think your cantrip choices are solid. Charm person is easily duplicated by a good diplomacy & clever use of suggestion. Swap charm person for Tasha's hideous laughter. CLW is good for bringing a dieing character back to living and little else. It is a very good spell to have, but don't rely on it for healing the party. If you don't have a cleric who can do it, use the 'cleric on a stick' aka wand of CLW. For second level spells I would drop CMW since you don't have the spell slots to heal the party, and should be using them to more effectively neutralize the opponents in the first place. I would select hold person, glitterdust & shatter.
CaoSlayer 11-26-03, 06:24 AM	umm, you can check my sig for a complete guide to all bardic spells. I would sugest catīs grace for the +2 to hit and AC or silence, a must for dealing against mages. (you can cast silence in a arrow and throw it to the enemy)
Ithilorien 11-26-03, 08:27 AM	I'd also recommend dropping Cure Moderate Wounds, trying to heal others will chew down your spell slots rather quickly and it really isn't spectacularly better than Cure Light Wounds, a wand of CLW is also a ridiculously cheap item you could keep on hand. For an archer I think Cat's Grace might be a good choice, although it's limited duration in 3.5 is a pain. Alter Self in order to take avariel form and hail arrows onto the enemy while safely flying would be a good choice, too. I also concur that Quick Draw should be dropped for Rapid Shot, you'll get more use out of the latter.
BlaineTog 11-26-03, 10:40 AM	Thank you all so much for your suggestions! I will be sure to implement many (if not all) of them. So the general concensus is to a) drop QuickDraw in exhcange for Rapid Shot (I don't think I should drop Improved initiative. It+DexMod = +8 to initiative), and b) lose the Cure spells. Are they something I should pick up later, or are they mostly useless when you have a cleric? Thanks. Alter self must be a 3.5 Bardic spell. Sadly, I haven't had the money to upgrade, so I'm stuck with an ol' 3E PHB. I'm reading the 3.5 SRD entry, and under those rules, it's a much better spell. Again, Thank you for your help!
Boondoggle 11-27-03, 05:50 AM	I disagree about cat's grace if magic items have wide availability for purchase. Gloves of Dexterity will provide a constant bonus and you won't have to spend a round casting the spell when you could be shooting.
CaoSlayer 11-27-03, 06:06 AM	he is using 3e rules there catīs grace lasted for hours (combine catīs grace with empower and/or extend spell and you will discover why they changed it the rods of metamagic are great for this task).
Boondoggle 11-27-03, 06:54 AM	Hmm, I'm pretty sure he's playing 3.5, but he only owns the 3E books. If he isn't, I doubt he would be wearing armor. He also made the (incorrect) comment about swapping spells. I guess we really need to have this clerified. If he is playing 3.0, spell suggestions change quite dramatically (blindness/deafness, for instance).
BlaineTog 11-27-03, 11:11 AM	Well, it's kinda weird, so here I go: We are officially playing 3e. Pretty much everyone in my group has 3e books. However, the 3e Bard sucks, so my DM is letting me use the 3.4 bard (i printed it out off the SRD). But the DM also has the 3.5 books and, well, to be quite honest I don't know why. But in any case, 3.5 Bard, 3e spells. 'specially since we has an elemental savant with a couple scrolls of haste. He was casting 2 Lightning Bolts w/ insanely high saves. Also stragely, 3.5 allows the Bard to use alter self (and I'll bey my DM will, too) which is a much better 3.5 spell than 3e. Here are my spell choices (so far): Cantrips-Same as 1st post. 1st: -CLW (I figure this will at least get a few people consious, if not healed). -Feather Fall (duh) -Grease (Specifically for use agaisnt evil fighters w/ uber swords or other ppl w/ bad reflex saves) -Silent Image (as was suggested) 2nd: -Alter Self (again, as was suggested) -Shatter (useful for nixing the baddie's armor/MW weapons/Wizard's backpack or SCP) -Tasha's Hideous Laughter (as was suggested, plus I've seen this in action and it is very effective) My questions: -Should I have Feather Fall as known, of just kee pa scroll or two handy? -CLW: Mabye just a wand? -Grease and Shatter kinda step on each other's toes but Shatter a)uses a will save and destroys the target, which we maynot want, and b) grease uses a Reflex save and just makes the weapon pretty much unsueable for about 30 seconds. -Just in general, how well would these spells work together? Thanks.
Ithilorien 11-27-03, 09:05 PM	If you get your DM to use 3.5 spell lists Tasha's is a first-level spell for bards . . . I think cure light wounds is a good call to have known, but feather fall's usefulness is . . . questionable . . . to me, I haven't been in many campaigns where my bard has been falling toawrd his doom, it might be handier to carry a scroll or ring with it.
BlaineTog 11-27-03, 11:30 PM	It's 1st level in 3.5? Well, that certianly makes a whole lot more sense. That's what I was thinking (scroll). I have a friend who bought a Ring of it and he only used it once: to escape a fight with another player. About Grease and Shatter: they seem as if they overlap some. Do you think I should nix one of them?
CaoSlayer 11-28-03, 05:04 AM	in 3e tashaīs laught sucks big time compared with hold person and in 3.5 tasha it is a level 1 spell, one big good advice try to get spells that mages get at a higher level (this is by example hold person than mages get a level 3).
Boondoggle 11-28-03, 07:19 PM	Well, since you're using the 3E spell list (sorta), blindness/deafness & glitterdust should be two of your 2nd level spells. With that combination, you can blind just about anyone. I would advise against alter self (3.5 version) if you're wanting to mainly be an archer. Your high dex would be a moot point when you use the spell. Instead, I would take shatter (with the two suggested above). Shatter is not only useful in shattering weapons, armor & shields, but is also a good utility spell. Locks you can't pick are easily shattered. Being chased? A keystone to an arch is easily shattered likely collapsing the doorway and more. Bridges can usually be collapsed by a strategically placed shatter. Heck, you can even shatter someone's pants for comic relief.
BlaineTog 11-28-03, 11:54 PM	Grrrr... TOO MANY CHOICES!!! I'm mainly interested in Alter Self so that I have the means for a quich, 3D get-a-way (a la Avariel), althoguh it has the added benfit of out-of-combat usefulness. I'm mainly interested in Hold Person for it's ability to make viable coup de grace targets for out tanks. I'm mainly interested in Silence for it's ability to mess with enemy mages (and to help me Charcters get to sleep at night). Shatter... well, it's a spell that I would really realyl really like to take, but It's number of uses is questionable. Like feather fall, it's the perfect spell for certain situations, but I'm under the impression that other spells would work better. Decisions decisions... OK: my new 1st and 2nd level spells are: 1st: -CLW -Grease -Silent Image -Tasha's Hideous Laughter 2nd: -Alter Self -Hold Person -Silence
Boondoggle 11-29-03, 05:37 AM	I've found slippers of spider climbing to be almost as effective as actual flight in avoiding melee combat. Frankly, I find the 3.5 alter self much less useful than the 3E version, probably because the old one was over powered. I also think you should consider taking blindness/deafness over silence since being blind usually hinders a caster much more than silence. Casters also have lower fortitude saves than will saves, and blindness tends to be more effective than silence against non-casters.
BlaineTog 11-29-03, 11:31 AM	Those slippers are pretty cool, although i've found that at close ranges, they get a few AoO as I climb... 3e Alter self was BETTER? I'll post both from the SRDs. Here's the stuff that's different: From the 3e SRD Level: Sor/Wiz 2 The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, the character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe underwater. The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. From the 3.5 SRD Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. 3.5 has some severe limitations, but you do get a) decent flight, b) Natural amrmor bonuses, and c) natural attacks, as apposed to 3e whihc basically just has them there for show. Hmm... blindness/deafness / silence... being blind would be a big problem, but silence means they couldn't cast at all (most spells have a V component)... what to do, what to do...
Boondoggle 11-29-03, 10:10 PM	The 3.5 alter self is severly limited in that you can only chose humanoid forms and your physical stats change. This means you can only fly if your DM allows FR races, which many do not. While this is good for casters, it's not for a bard. The 3E alter self would let you grow wings (which the Sage rules gave you a fly speed equal to your land speed, max 30', average manuverability), gills and two extra arms. It didn't give you natural attacks, but those extra arms could wield weapons. About silence: many casters will be able to make the will save if you try and cast it on them. If you cast it in the area instead, they can simply walk out of it. They probably won't make a fortitude save. Being blind means they will have a very hard time targeting spells: Rays have a 50% miss chance *if* they make their DC 20+ listen check, other targeted spells are impossible. This means they can only cast area affect spells & buff spells, and have to guess at the location for the area affects.
Boondoggle 11-29-03, 10:14 PM	Double post
BlaineTog 11-29-03, 11:49 PM	Yeah, that's what i was starting to think. The saves for silence just synergize too well with the casters. Alter self: flying is still pretty good for a 2nd level spell. Let's see: right now, my sheet says: Alter Self, Hold Person, Silence for 2nd level spells. Which ones do you suggest? Remember: I'm looking for support/Tool spells. Thanks your your help.
Boondoggle 11-30-03, 06:22 AM	I mean no offense, but if you're looking for support/tool spells, then shatter is right up your alley. Silence is a good spell, but sculpt sound (3rd level) can be just as effective, and much more utilitarian. Frankly, I think the 3.5 alter self is only good for flying in your case (maybe swimming, but that rarely happens). Unless your campaign is mainly set outdoors, I would strongly suggest the slippers for mobility & defense over alter self (if you were an outsider on the otherhand...). I'm also just thinking, since your revised party will be without a rogue and you want to be mainly an archer and 'tool' spell-caster, you might want to consider a bard 7/rogue 3/arcane trickster 10 build. If you do go this route, I suggest switching your int & dex as the extra skill points will be much more of a boon than a +2 to hit. Dex boosting magic items will be much more useful and generally eaiser to aquire than int boosters. Also, I'm not sure if you caught my former mention, but 3.5 bards do get to swap out spells. One final thing, your DM is allowing the 3E spell list, correct? If not, the blindness/deafness issue is moot.
BlaineTog 11-30-03, 02:25 PM	No offense taken. You've ben a big help to me. Hmmm... perhaps you're right about shatter. Yeah, and we DO have a pair of the afrementioned slippers in our party (got it off a sorcerer we killed), although I somehow doubt my bard would be able to get them off the Dragon Disciple my sorcerer is gonna give it too (well, mabye once he gets his wings). I'm also just thinking, since your revised party will be without a rogue and you want to be mainly an archer and 'tool' spell-caster, you might want to consider a bard 7/rogue 3/arcane trickster 10 build. *sharp intake* I don't really want to go that way. I was planning on taking my bard all the way through. He just doesn't seem the dsort of person to take levels in rogue. Also, I'm not sure if you caught my former mention, but 3.5 bards do get to swap out spells. Cauhgt it and took it to heart. I should probably try something called "reading the PHB entry all the way through" for once. One final thing, your DM is allowing the 3E spell list, correct? If not, the blindness/deafness issue is moot. :confused: I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Boondoggle 11-30-03, 10:37 PM	Well, you're using the 3.5 bard, a couple 3.5 bard spells, but the rest is the 3E spell list? The reason I ask is that blindness/deafness isn't a on the 3.5 bard spell list.
BlaineTog 11-30-03, 11:02 PM	From the 3.5 SRD 2ND-LEVEL BARD SPELLS Alter Self: Assume form of a similar creature. Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place. Animal Trance: Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals. Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blind or deaf.
CaoSlayer 12-01-03, 03:50 AM	Originally posted by Boondoggle I also think you should consider taking blindness/deafness over silence since being blind usually hinders a caster much more than silence. Casters also have lower fortitude saves than will saves, and blindness tends to be more effective than silence against non-casters. the idea for silence it is to cast it in an ally or an arrow, this way the enemy gets no save and the ally can gapple or prepare an action for advoiding the caster to run.
Boondoggle 12-01-03, 07:51 AM	:blush: Somehow I got it into my head that blindness/deafness wasn't on the bard's spell list in 3.5... Anywho, ignore dem posts. Reguarding what you said, CaoSlayer, a grappled spellcaster probably doesn't care about the silence on your ally. It's doubtful he'll have a dimention door ready & have the material components in hand. If you cast the silence on an arrow, then can just walk away from the arrow; it doesn't stick into them even if you hit them. You might try casting it on your familiar and have it chase the caster around, but I still contend that a blind caster is less of a threat than a silenced one.
BlaineTog 12-01-03, 08:16 PM	Hmm... I'm thinking that in either case, the Caster is going to have problems, but when he's blind, he's got no recourse (ei no Silent spells for you!). Plus he looses his Dex bonus to AC (whihc is probably all he'e got), giving me an even easier time with my Archery. So for 2nd level spells, I think I'm going with Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person, and Shatter. Now, I know this is a little OT, but I'm still not certain what I should get for my feats. I'm human, So I get 4. Right now, I have Poit Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Improved Initiative. I had Quick Draw, but someone convinced me earlier to lose it. I'm thinking of getting Rapid SHot, but I have a feeling that it won't be the most useful to me (plus I'd like to go with a little more variety).
Snow Savant 12-01-03, 08:22 PM	You are 6th level, you can Fascinate/Suggest ... probably the most valuable weapon in your repertoire because you can use it a whopping 6 times per day (Suggestion is the equivalent of a 3rd level Wiz/Sorc spell). If you sing a lot, which you should being Suggestion-capable, the Subsonics feat becomes super-sweet-good. Although with your negligence to the stealth skills of a Bard (Hide, MS) and the Invisibility spell (which keeps you Invisible even while Suggesting), the value may not be as high for you. Subsonics is an awesome feat for a Bard. Definitely consider within the context of your specific character. Regards, Snow :)
BlaineTog 12-02-03, 01:51 AM	Sounds cool. But what is Subsonics? I, sadly, don't have SaS.
CaoSlayer 12-02-03, 05:09 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Sounds cool. But what is Subsonics? I, sadly, don't have SaS. letīs say it this way: you can perform without doing a single noise.