Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sisyfos 02-06-04, 05:03 AM	1: Pbs 3: Rapid shot 6: Impr. init 9: Impr. counterspell 12: Reactive counterspell 15: Heighten spell 18: Precise shot Cle3/sorc4/HM3/MT10 13th divine - 7th 15th arcane - 7th The basic idea of this character is pretty simple. He starts as an elven archer (though aasimar's ability boosts would fit him very nicely). Then he develops some counterspelling ability. Then havoc mage's abilities start to kick in. I read the class description and it seemed to me that they get the battlecast even when using ranged weapons: thus that is one extra blast/battlefield control spell each round while using archery. So he is: 1. Cleric archer 2. Spontaneous counterspeller 3. Blaster All during the same round. This build is not finished. I need to check the domain's etc. to fudge the feats around a bit to get extend spell+persistent spell in there somewhere. Something needs to be done also to make this character more playable at low levels. But it is fun to toy around with a concept like this. Sisyfos
Sisyfos 02-06-04, 11:07 PM	Does it suck that bad? :smirk: Ok. Any ideas on how to optimize this concept without losing the functions this character has (archer, counterspeller, blaster & healer)? Havoc mage's abilities can be simuled with quickened spells, but it is pretty taxing in the long run. Sisyfos
Grislof the Blind 02-06-04, 11:46 PM	Nice concept ! I toyed around with something like it sometime ago... About the domains i think the obvious choice is the elf domain, since it gives you the PBS for free. Where is the Havoc mage from ? If i could read it i might be able to help you.
Sisyfos 02-06-04, 11:55 PM	Havoc mage is from Miniature's handbook (pretty popular book at the boards these days it seems). The elf domain fits this elven character spot on. Thanks.
RabidWeasel 02-07-04, 06:44 AM	Doesn't battlecast only work with melee attacks?
Sisyfos 02-07-04, 06:50 AM	Thats what I first thought automatically. Then I read the description again. It says that "A havoc mage gains the ability to cast spells of a certain level or lower while making a weapon attack." It does not state anything about melee or ranged weapons. Thus without an errata of any kind it would mean that ranged attack qualifies. Sisyfos
RabidWeasel 02-07-04, 12:58 PM	Has there been any clarification to battlecast giving a full attack or a single attack? It doesn't seem worth it to me to give up a move action for a single attack, but being able to full attack and cast a spell sounds too good to be true.
Zubon 02-07-04, 01:43 PM	I just want to ask about feat order. Precise shot last? It seems odd to take the +4 to init before removing the -4 to hit. Then again, maybe it's just my combat that tends to close to melee rather quickly. At least you can shoot the mage who is hiding in the back.
Zubon 02-07-04, 01:48 PM	Oh, and deities: Shevarash gets Chaos, Elf, Retribution, and War with longbow as favored weapon Solonor Thelandira gets Chaos, Elf, Good, Plant and War, with longbow as favored weapon Labelas Enoreth gets Chaos, Elf, Good, Knowledge, and Time (Time was slightly cooler under 3.0)
PhaedrusXY 02-07-04, 02:38 PM	I agree about taking Precise Shot before Improved Initiative. Also, another deity to consider is Sehanine Moonbow for Elf and Travel. If you just want a divine counterspeller, you might consider just going with a Shugenja, Mystic, Favored Soul or one of the other spontaneous divine casters instead of taking sorcerer levels. I don't think being able to counterspell spontaneously is worth a four level hit to caster level.
Sisyfos 02-07-04, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY I agree about taking Precise Shot before Improved Initiative. Also, another deity to consider is Sehanine Moonbow for Elf and Travel. The reason I've pushed precise shot up after improved init is because improved init is prequisite for reactive counterspell and is thus prequisite for the whole counterspelling mechanism. Precise shot is nice, but is not vital like reactive counterspelling. Getting PBS through elf domain would ofcourse allow me to take all of these feats somewhat earlier. If you just want a divine counterspeller, you might consider just going with a Shugenja, Mystic, Favored Soul or one of the other spontaneous divine casters instead of taking sorcerer levels. I don't think being able to counterspell spontaneously is worth a four level hit to caster level. Havoc mage... one whole function would be left out with some other mechanism. Havoc mage is like casting one extra spell each round. Sorcerer spells are not worthless. The arcane spell list still has spells which the cleric and favored soul lists do not have. Solid fog, scorching ray, haste, evard's, shield, expedit. retr., dim. door, teleport, alter self, polymorph... the list goes on. Alltogether those just might be worth the casterlevel hit? Sisyfos
P33KAJ3W 02-07-04, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Sisyfos Does it suck that bad? :smirk: Ok. Any ideas on how to optimize this concept without losing the functions this character has (archer, counterspeller, blaster & healer)? Sisyfos Spellfire, albet NOT as good as Reactive counterspell you can still use a full 20 lev archer build and never put any in wiz or cleric
Grislof the Blind 02-07-04, 10:19 PM	I came up with the same question about spellfire.. is it not worth to have as a counterspelling tool ? I couldnt quite get how it works for counterspelling.anyways i think i never seen spellfire mentioned here on the CO boards.. maybe is because it isnt worth it...
Sisyfos 02-08-04, 05:55 AM	Spellfire works like a rod of absorbtion. One does not mention it too often in CO board as it is forgotten realms specific and even then VERY few people have ability with it. I think that over 90% of FR campaigns never have spellfire in them (not even as a passing encounter). The mechanism for it is not incredibly weak (especially with good CON), but rp-wise it just is not feasible very often. P33... yes, it is an interesting option. It would be a different kind of character. Interesting, but very different from what I'd like to build here. Thanks for mentioning it, I might work some NPC (or NPC group/culture) based on that concept though. Spellfire archers would make a nice elite group. Sisyfos
P33KAJ3W 02-09-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos Spellfire works like a rod of absorbtion. One does not mention it too often in CO board as it is forgotten realms specific and even then VERY few people have ability with it. I think that over 90% of FR campaigns never have spellfire in them (not even as a passing encounter). The mechanism for it is not incredibly weak (especially with good CON), but rp-wise it just is not feasible very often. P33... yes, it is an interesting option. It would be a different kind of character. Interesting, but very different from what I'd like to build here. Thanks for mentioning it, I might work some NPC (or NPC group/culture) based on that concept though. Spellfire archers would make a nice elite group. Sisyfos The only problem with Spellfire and optimization is there is no way to make it "reactive" Spellfire - The PRC for it should have that as a 10th level ability and spend the first 9 levels just like they are... It would make it a feasible charicter trait as it stands now it is just a good co-hort. "...and my Co-Hort yells at the spellcaster shoot me you ninny then he turns his back and readys spellfire." The reactive counterspelling archer should be an Arcane Archer IMHO and memorise a as many evocation spells for dispelling and attacking as possable. Also if you shorten my name please make it P33K (Peek) not P33 (Pee) :dice:
ck2001wendt 04-07-04, 10:58 AM	Rescuing the thread after however long! Sisyfos, I'm also trying to make a Favored Soul Divine Counterspeller for a "Good" party. Unforunately, I'm having a hard time finding a 0=level Universal school Cleric Spell to Heighten (this kind of build takes A LOT of feats to happen...12th level at least for full effect). I like the idea of an MT Counterspeller; you basically have unlimited Counterspelling ability at that point. Wizard 3/Favored Soul 3/MT 10/Wiz PrC 4 will give you 17 in one school and 14 in the other. The problem as I see it is if you go this route you still lose the ability to effectively Counterspell lvl 9 spells (AND you can't do it until lvl 20. A good counterspeller needs to be able to hit lvl 9 early and often. I wonder if the 3.5 changes to Rod of Absorbtion affect the Spellfire ability. The big problem is it only helps you, not your buddies, and I believe it's limited to "target you" spells (I think this should include Rays. Others don't)..
Sisyfos 04-07-04, 12:46 PM	From SRD: "A small number of spells (arcane mark, limited wish, permanency, prestidigitation, and wish) are universal, belonging to no school." Those are the only universal spells in core. No cleric spell is from universal school. Getting one is not essential for the concept. Sisyfos
GrolubFranco 04-07-04, 01:15 PM	Well, I donīt see much use for the cleric class, you could substitute it for fighter for the bonus featīs. The cleric archer concept is way gone, with the PS +6 slot... Itīs true you gain bonus feats from the deities but thatīs it... you could take: Cleric 1/Fighter 3/wizard 3 The same problem maintains: Sunder! There isnīt a way to stop that...
ck2001wendt 04-07-04, 01:15 PM	I suppose it's not essential; it just forces the Favored Soul to chose the spells he uses all the more carefully, to be able to be broadly effective as a Counterspeller. A Favored Soul that can't dispel 9th level Necromancy spells might leave your party in big trouble. Then again, they might not. If you needed a workaround, you could always choose Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from the Spell Domain, but that only gives you 2 slots for Heightened Prestidigitation that work as all purpose counterspell slots. As we've discovered from Psifon's post, the only work around for the Cleric Archer now is Runecaster 8, which gets you your Persistant Divine Power (until dispelled), though it's expensive (10's of thousands of GP). Right now, I'm trying to toy around with +1 CL PrCs that will get me out of Favored Soul as fast as possible, and give the build some standard cleric abilities (like Turning, which is a big weakness in a 4-person party that depends on the FS for Divine magic). I've got it down to FS 5/PrC 10, but I'd like to get it down to FS 10/PrCs 15, while keeping 20 CL.
Sisyfos 04-07-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt I suppose it's not essential; it just forces the Favored Soul to chose the spells he uses all the more carefully, to be able to be broadly effective as a Counterspeller. A Favored Soul that can't dispel 9th level Necromancy spells might leave your party in big trouble. Then again, they might not. But you can counterspell necromancy! The only spells you cannot counterspell automatically are: - arcane mark - prestidigitation - limited wish - permanency - wish The only ones of these which you'd like to be able to counterspell automatically are limited wish and wish and you can cast greater dispelling at those also. I reiterate: "Not a problem". Well, I donīt see much use for the cleric class, you could substitute it for fighter for the bonus featīs. The cleric archer concept is way gone, with the PS +6 slot... Itīs true you gain bonus feats from the deities but thatīs it... you could take: Cleric 1/Fighter 3/wizard 3 This build has been made waaaayyyy before PGtF came out. Also the build you suggested does not qualify for MT and is alltogether weaker than the one presented. The same problem maintains: Sunder! There isnīt a way to stop that... Repulsion and antilife shell are the ones this build would use in conjunction with the ability to fly etc. Sisyfos PS. This is a build concept I have since abandoned. ck2001wendt just decided to bump it to ask a question about FS counterspelling options.
ck2001wendt 04-07-04, 02:14 PM	I understand the fundamental concept; if you have Dispel/Greater Dispel you can dispel anything. I've always found Dispel rubs me the wrong way; I want to get that counterspell to be as automatic as possible. Energy Drain, 9th level Necro, can only be countered by Energy Drain (or 10th level Necro). I could rely on Greater Dispel to get it done, but almost any roll has a chance of failure. Oh well. Sorry to keep the thread alive when it was meant to die. I think the problem might have been you were doing too much...a cleric archer/counterspeller or counterspeller/undead blaster may be possible (as I hope to show). Add general blaster in there and it's getting too broad.
Sisyfos 04-07-04, 02:18 PM	Nah. The concept is working just fine. I just finished the work with it. The PGtF of course changed some things with the campaigns which use it, but that can be fixed. No need to apologize for resurrecting the thread. Feel free to post if a concept interests you. Sisyfos