Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MerlintheTuna 09-26-06, 10:42 AM	Howdy all. I'm drawing up an 8th level character, and as strikingly sub-optimal as it is, I'm going with a Human Ranger 4/Bard 4. The combat style of choice here is archery. Things are coming together fairly well in general, with the exception of feats -- bow feats seem to be few and far between. Or at least, the good ones are. Here are the stats I'm looking at. STR 15 DEX 16 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 12 CHA 13 That doesn't include the 4th and 8th level increases going in to strength and charisma. I could be convinced to do something else with the 14, but this is where I'm leaning at the moment. Dex will of course get priority as far as stat-boosting items go, and an Amulet of Health likely won't be far behind. I'm pretty much locked in as a human, since I plan on going straight up Ranger from here on out. I might grab Bard 5 and 6 if things go on for a while, but I definitely intend it to be a Ranger first and foremost. But at any rate, where should I go with feats here? Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are shoo-ins, and Rapid Shot I get automatically. But aside from that I don't see any real must-haves, especially since I'll be grabbing Manyshot courtesy of the combat style pretty soon. That'll open up Improved Rapid Shot, which is all well and good, but I've still got 3rd and 6th level feat slots to fill. And when I start looking at Far Shot and Ranged Disarm, well, I recognize that there are probably better things to be had. Weapon Focus isn't terrible I suppose, but the fact that I won't be able to grab Specialization (and thus Ranged Weapon Mastery) makes it less attractive. EWP: Greatbow is kind of the same, unimpressive deal. I've toyed with Improved Favored Enemy, but it seems like a waste at the moment since I still only have one FE. Given that it will be a sea-based campaign, Far Shot isn't necessarily a bad idea, but still, doesn't hurt to ask for help. So... any ideas? Edit: Gah, forgot allowed books. Material from the Completes, Races, or PHB2 would be best.
rilem 09-26-06, 11:20 AM	Books allowed? Why not something like Half-Elf Bard7/Ranger11/ArcaneArcher2? BAB 18, 3rd level Bard/Ranger spells, Imbue Arrow. I'd swap Wis and Int; you'll need a higher wisdom for your ranger spells, and there are some great archery ones in Cadv.
MerlintheTuna 09-26-06, 11:33 AM	Why not something like Half-Elf Bard7/Ranger11/ArcaneArcher2? Because it's an 8th level character, silly. But honestly, I've looked at Arcane Archer, and my problems are twofold. 1.) It would necessitate being a Half-Elf, and they're easily my least favorite race. 2.) None of the Arcane Archer's abilities would be worth much by the time I got them. Ooh boy, I can fire a Slow from a long ways away, once per day. I'll bet the Tarrasque is shakin' in his boots. Oh, and in case my character is still using a non-magical weapon, that's covered too. Sweet. Check. Done. Got it. But in reality, "it's an 8th level character" is the biggest reason. I don't expect to get this guy anywhere NEAR 20. If he makes it to 10 before it's time for him to fade into oblivion, I'll be ecstatic. He has to be set up around the idea of payoff NOW, not payoff just before epic comes around. I'd swap Wis and Int; you'll need a higher wisdom for your ranger spells, and there are some great archery ones in Cadv. There are some good ones there, but like I said, I'm going for instant payoff. I've only got 1st level Ranger spells; 12 WIS gives me enough to cast and enough to get a bonus spell. Given that I don't need a high DC out of the thing, any Wisdom score from 13-19 is getting me jack squat at the moment, and that just won't do. On the other hand, an early investment in INT scores me plenty of bonus skill points and an extra language. Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) is actually starting to sound like a decent idea, actually...
Arkham00 09-26-06, 11:40 AM	Go with scout instead of ranger,so you can fill your feat-gaps with the no more style-feats granted by the ranger,but you gain many cool class feature ,and you could think to take in the future dodge-mobility-shot on the run. There aren't many feats god fr archer,that is a fact :(
MerlintheTuna 09-26-06, 11:46 AM	Go with scout instead of ranger,so you can fill your feat-gaps with the no more style-feats granted by the ranger,but you gain many cool class feature ,and you could think to take in the future dodge-mobility-shot on the run. Your solution is to allow myself fewer feats? That's... interesting? But even ignoring the fact that I abhor the Scout, skirmish is terrible, and I'd be multiclassing two 3/4 BAB classes, I think that the point is being missed. The request is not "Make me an uber sweet build." The request is "help me pick a couple feats." I don't mean to sound pissy or angry, because I'm neither. I'm just saying, I've made a few decisions and would like help with the last couple.
solbergb 09-26-06, 12:02 PM	Howdy all. I'm drawing up an 8th level character, and as strikingly sub-optimal as it is, I'm going with a Human Ranger 4/Bard 4. The combat style of choice here is archery. Things are coming together fairly well in general, with the exception of feats -- bow feats seem to be few and far between. . Actually there are a lot of bow feats. archery is generally considered a feat-hungry choice. ranger4/bard4 gives you only one feat, so you're going to consume most of your others with the basics. You absolutely must have: point blank, precise, rapid. (uses up your ranger feat and L1 feats) plus improved precise shot once you have BAB11...this locks down your L12 feat. The following are all very helpful, and should be considered for your L3, 6 and 9 feats. quickdraw (full attack no matter what, plus full attack thrown/splash weapons) Woodland archer (races of wild) - tactical feat makes any volley archer better, and also throws a bone to the stealthy sniper types. multishot+improved rapid shot. No longer take penalties for rapid shot. Multishot isn't as good, but is sometimes handy in surprise rounds that begin at short range, or when you are forced to move and shoot. Improved rapid is found in Complete Warrior weapon focus. An archer who can't hit is a useless archer. It is also a requisite for most archer oriented PRC's and many other PRC's that can be useful (such as occult slayer or pious templar) The next tier of archery feats are mostly in the "flavor" category. improved crit - my arcane archer takes this because he thinks getting "keen edge" on his arrows makes sense given that he's also getting GMW on his arrows without casting spells. It's not a big damage boost, but it isn't useless ranged disarm - get a ruling on weapon size before you take this one...some DM's treat projectile weapons as "light" because the arrow does the disarming and that's a hefty -4 penalty. The 30' range also limits this. ranged sunder - less issues with this one, especially if you can find some serpentstongue arrows (Races Wild) but again, 30' range makes this a niche maneuver hope that helps. You shouldn't have any trouble filling up your three feat slots, even assuming you don't want to slip in some bard feat in there somewhere.
Prominence 09-26-06, 12:12 PM	But even ignoring the fact that I abhor the Scout, skirmish is terrible, and I'd be multiclassing two 3/4 BAB classes, I think that the point is being missed. The request is not "Make me an uber sweet build." The request is "help me pick a couple feats." I don't mean to sound pissy or angry, because I'm neither. I'm just saying, I've made a few decisions and would like help with the last couple. I'm not sure what you came expecting. No offense intended, this is the char opt forum. We do 'lets make it better and playable' not just 'lets let him shoot himself in the foot'. Furthermore, skirmish is great with Greater ManyShot, Scout gets a bonus feat at level 4 iirc where your Ranger only has 1 bonus 'fighting' feat. Trapfinding is generally more useful than Track and I've never, ever used Endurance except for Steadfast Determination. Your grand 'loss' is the ranger spells you don't seem to want, an animal companion that will suck, and 1 bab negated by more skills. Anyway, Improved Initiative never hurt a character. Going first is always good. I would pick up Weapon Focus (longbow) just incase to go into a PrC at some point. Practiced Spellcaster is useless since it won't boost your save DCs, only duration of buff spells pretty much for you. Still, you only have 1st level spells which doesn't even give you good buffs (you cant cast 2nd level get cuz you have 0 bonus spells). I'm pretty sure there's a feat to increase bardic music uses/day. Extra Songs or something. Considering you seem to indicate 2 more levels of ranger before anything else, this might be useful for you. Far Shot would be very useful in a sea faring campaign if your DM is into cannon fire on each other. Have you looked at Cragtop Archer? Combine it with Far Shot and sitting at the top of the boat, you could get a good damage boost. Otherwise you're sitting around waiting for the 240 foot fireball ranged shots to be done. complete warrior has more good options.
solbergb 09-26-06, 12:49 PM	Far shot falls into the "flavor" category, like improved crit. It's sometimes useful, but isn't first or second tier. Improved init is NOT good on every character. It is somewhat useful, but any feat taken has opportunity cost of feats not taken. It's probably about as good as far shot and improved crit on an archer. Quick Reconnoiter (CV) is probably approaching second tier (ie, better than improved crit, not as good as quickdraw or woodland archer) - it improves your init AND gives you extra spot/listen checks to pinpoint bad guys.
MerlintheTuna 09-26-06, 12:55 PM	I'm not sure what you came expecting. No offense intended, this is the char opt forum. We do 'lets make it better and playable' not just 'lets let him shoot himself in the foot'. Don't think I don't spend a fair amount of time here; I know may way around the CO boards well enough. But the idea here is Character Optimization, not Character WellYouShouldReallyJustPlayACleric. Character Optimization means "Here is a character. Please help him be all he can be," not "Here is a character. Make him a different character that's more powerful." When I say that I'm making a Ranger 4/Bard 4 and want help selecting feats, I expect to receive either A.) no attention at all or B.) help selecting feats for a Ranger 4/Bard 4. Furthermore, skirmish is great with Greater ManyShot, Scout gets a bonus feat at level 4 iirc where your Ranger only has 1 bonus 'fighting' feat. Trapfinding is generally more useful than Track and I've never, ever used Endurance except for Steadfast Determination. Your grand 'loss' is the ranger spells you don't seem to want, an animal companion that will suck, and 1 bab negated by more skills. Can't grab Greater Manyshot -- I don't have access to Manyshot at any of the feat-gaining levels, and certainly wouldn't have access to it if I lost another point of BAB by taking Scout levels instead. Even assuming there were a way to get the feat though, I'd end up firing two arrows at 1d8+3+1d6 (avg. 22 damage) vs firing 3 at 1d8+3 damage (avg. 22.5 damage). And given the options of +1 AC vs. not being within 30 feet of the enemy, I find the latter is more secure defense. Incoming run-on sentence. Track suits the character (hence Ranger levels in the first place), Endurance has its uses and allows for Diehard when all else fails, BAB is worth far more to me than a few more skill points when I've already got a mess of them, I'm dumping the animal companion for the PHB 2 variant, and the Ranger spells are important enough for me to have made sure I can cast as many as possible while still having access to Bard 2 spells, since I DO have a bonus spell for the highest level spell I have access to in each class. Really the only thing that would draw me towards the Scout is Fast Movement... but I can Bard my way to Expeditious Retreat if I need to anyway. Practiced Spellcaster is useless since it won't boost your save DCs, only duration of buff spells pretty much for you. Still, you only have 1st level spells which doesn't even give you good buffs (you cant cast 2nd level get cuz you have 0 bonus spells). That's pretty much the entire purpose of the Practiced Spellcaster feat. I have no idea why that would make it useless. And as I mentioned, I do have 2nd level bard spells. 14 CHA is a +2 modifier, which gives me one bonus spell each for 1st and 2nd level spells. solberg: I've looked at most of those. As you mentioned though, a lot of those have BAB requirements that I can't satisfy at the necessary times. I'm curious as to the suggestion of Quick Draw, though. I'm not seeing a whole lot of use for that for an archer. It could be useful if I ever need to fall back on the whip (which I just realized makes Ranged Disarm fairly pointless), but aside from that, I don't see a lot of purpose. Unless of course the DM lets it work on wands and scrolls. At this point I'm leaning towards Practiced Spellcaster and either Weapon Focus or Far Shot. Man, the second half of that makes me cringe.
Prominence 09-26-06, 01:26 PM	Can't grab Greater Manyshot -- I don't have access to Manyshot at any of the feat-gaining levels If you took it in context, I was refering to 'when you level a bit'. A lot of advice given usually is for the soon, not the now. Anyway, your damage calculation doesn't consider that you get to -move- with manyshot. Anyway, I think you can get ranged pin if you do Bard 1 / Ranger 4 / Bard +3.
rilem 09-26-06, 01:30 PM	Here is a character. Make him a different character that's more powerful." Sorry to offend you with extra advice. But I didn't suggest you play a different character; I gave a suggestion for future advancement (with a race change, but the race suggestion was because you seemed misinformed about your choices. You are, in fact, not "locked in" as a human, you merely prefer it. You didn't give that information up front.) And since Arcane Archer requires Weapon Focus, a feat suggestion is implied with my recommendation. I'll make sure to spell things out for you next time. I really don't see the point of practiced spellcaster here — many of the better Bard spells are either 1 min/level (i.e., long enough) or non-level specific duration. Any of the Bardic song feats would be more helpful. I'd probably go for Song of the Heart (if Eberron is allowed), Extra Music or Weapon Focus.
jstorrie 09-26-06, 01:32 PM	Warrrrrrchanter. Build for Warchanter.
ShneekeyTheLost 09-26-06, 03:08 PM	Grab Point Blank Shot, Dodge, and Mobility. Take Archery primary for Ranger free feats Get Shot on the Run Use your Hide and Move Silently skills as well as Shot on the Run to be a nasty sniper in natural surroundings.
solbergb 09-26-06, 06:34 PM	I've looked at most of those. As you mentioned though, a lot of those have BAB requirements that I can't satisfy at the necessary times. I'm curious as to the suggestion of Quick Draw, though. I'm not seeing a whole lot of use for that for an archer. . A lot of folks don't see the benefit of quickdraw until they play with it. Put simply...you never, ever have a round where you can't do a full volley with your bow. It is hard to overemphasize how liberating that is. Your bow is stashed for social reasons, or you are drawing a backup bow because something happened to your main bow, or you are switching from specialty bow to another bow (eg merciful to undead bane), or you want to mix a splash weapon or tanglefoot bag in with your arrow volley, or you want to use thrown weapons for some reason (DR perhaps....blunt and slashing throwing weapons are very cheap...or because you want your bow safe where the bad guy can't sunder it, but still want the benefit of your rapid shot feat...which CAN be mixed with melee attacks as long as you toss one thing each round) For a caster like you it has other benefits...you can quickdraw wands and metamagic rods too...it makes juggling them a lot easier. It leaves hands free for instruments or spellcasting in early rounds, which you can drop and quickdraw-volley-fire your bow when you're done buffing the party. There is no "DM lets you use it on wands." Wands are the explicit example of a "weaponlike object" in the PHB that can be drawn as part of a move, and thus quickdrawn. It's a rare DM that would exclude metamagic rods either. Far shot is marginal. Weapon focus is better (+1 to every attack, instead of sometimes saving a -2 range penalty) the vast majority of the time. It's a decent feat in the high teens...there is an epic feat that eliminates all range mods that has it as a requisite...but it's something you usually pick if nothing else is interesting at all. I can not support shot on the run at all. Archers do pathetic single-shot damage. They're all about doing volleys...making up in volume what they don't do in single hits. (monks are similar). Wasting three feats (dodge and mobility do zip for archers) to get single shots is not something you want in a team game. In a solo campaign, perhaps, since it lets you very, very slowly kill things from total cover. But doing 1/3-1/6 of your damage output because you were afraid to hold still and volley-fire doesn't seem very sensible to me, especially on a bard build that can presumably put up some fairly substantial arcane defenses (such as alter self and mirrior image) if only via wands. I've seen an effective sniper - he was a ranger with maxed stealth skills, plus the SC spells forestfold and camoflauge, using his extreme stealth skills to snipe from within 30' with manyshot. A ranger4/bard4 isn't going to be able to do that, he isn't built for it. He IS built for volley fire, since the bardsong works best if applied to multiple separate attack rolls. Practiced spellcaster might be ok, depending on what bard spells you've chosen. Will CL8 vs CL4 really matter on them to the level that is worth a feat? It doesn't on most of my favorites (swift invis, inspirational boost, alter self, etc) beyond duration on the 10 minute/level buffs.
solbergb 09-26-06, 06:45 PM	Ah...and I'm with the original poster. Guys, stop posting alternate builds. He doesn't want alternate builds. If he wanted builds, he'd have said "Archer Build Wanted" in the title instead of "Archer Feat Selection" He wants feat advice for the build he's chosen. Lets stick with helping him out there...
solbergb 09-26-06, 06:47 PM	Warrrrrrchanter. Build for Warchanter. Not really an archer PRC. He'd need weapon focus (which is ok) and combat expertise (less useful, maybe not even possible depending on intelligence). The chants...help melee combat, in particular power attack melee combat. Not ranged combat. At least not till level 10 warchanter where he can swipe the highest BAB in the party and share it around. So no...even though he has a fullbab class and bard levels...I can't recommend warchanter for a future PRC.
Iron Klaw Merc 09-26-06, 08:55 PM	I've seen it mentioned many times, so I'm wondering what book is volley archery from?
ezreal2001 09-26-06, 10:35 PM	Far shot is marginal. Weapon focus is better (+1 to every attack, instead of sometimes saving a -2 range penalty) the vast majority of the time. It's a decent feat in the high teens...there is an epic feat that eliminates all range mods that has it as a requisite...but it's something you usually pick if nothing else is interesting at all. Actually, since he's working on Ranger levels, he's got some alternatives to the Far shot feat. If he can work on expanding the number of Ranger Spells availible to him he might find it preferable to pack a Guided Shot (CV/SC Ranger 1). Alternatively he could consider carrying scrolls of Hawkeye (25gp, CV/SC Ranger 1).
ezreal2001 09-26-06, 10:43 PM	I've seen it mentioned many times, so I'm wondering what book is volley archery from? Yeah I'm talking out of turn but Solbergb uses the phrase "volley archery" as a synonyn for Full Attack with a bow... John
solbergb 09-26-06, 11:00 PM	correct full attack = volley single attack+hide = sniping Those are the two general archery modes.
Iron Klaw Merc 09-26-06, 11:10 PM	Thanks for clearing that up for me :)
Hanniball 09-27-06, 12:21 AM	Take a gander here for all your archer needs: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604 Should have what you need. :) Either way...just my 2 cp
sethjohnson 09-27-06, 03:10 AM	Nobody likes Ranged Pin? Even against an opponent who can break free easily, if you ready it for just after the target's action they'll be at -4 AC for a full round. I guess it's a bit situational, but doesn't seem moreso than Ranged Disarm. Presumably you *aren't* looking at prestige classes like OotBI (which would make Weapon Focus an obvious choice). I'd agree Practiced Spellcaster is a good idea. Since I can't remember what the BAB requirement for Penetrating Shot is, I'm assuming you can't meet it here, but it's good. Should I assume you're on a boat most of the time? Normally I'd say Improved Iniative. Higher iniative gives you more latitude to use your range to your advantage. If you're going to be on a boat most of the time though, it's probably slightly less useful. Far Shot + hanging out in the Crow's Nest sounds like a good plan to me, if you're on a boat. Depending on how much your DM likes environmental concealment and attacks at night, Blind-fight might also be helpful. And when you can't find anything better, save enhancing feats are always your friend.
solbergb 09-27-06, 12:27 PM	The trouble with all the "Ranged XXX" feats is they have a 30' range limit, which for me is about half the distance I want between my archer and bad guys, minimum :) Ranged disarm can still be used as a flavor feat, to do trick shots and such, and as long as there are wands and simliar things, it will continue to be useful sometimes. Ranged pin though....even a level 1 orc warrior can break out of that half the time. It's too weak. Fixed DC grapple checks are just pointless IMHO. Use a tanglefoot bag instead....save or no save, any size large or smaller guy hit with it will be at -2 attack, -4 dex and half movement for a few rounds.
UMiskatonic 09-27-06, 12:50 PM	I suggest Quick Draw as a good move. It's invaluable for, say, zombies. Arrows don't do much to them, but throwing three vials of holy water a round will. Also good for swarms, DR, and getting a full attack from the word go. Of course Woodland Archer, if you can. Another interesting feat is Craft Arms and Armor. If you take Summon Monster I as one of your bard spells, you'll be able to make all the bane arrows you want. This will require either 6 levels of bard casting or the Practiced Spellcaster feat, but it could be really great in some campaigns. If you'll have all the gear you'll need, maybe you can do a bit better. You could always look at some of the bardic music feats. Extra Music is okay, and Lingering Song is too.
jean-jacques 09-27-06, 01:35 PM	alright as you are looking for feat selection here goes I'm listing some of the more useful archery feats: Far shot (pre req: point blank shot) - as stated many times before its situational but depending on the way you are engaging in fights could be useful point blank shot - a no brainer; needed for the nicer archery feats available precise shot - again a no brainer, negating that nasty penalty for firing into melee is good no matter what ranged xxx - not the best choices, but as your build stands you don't have the BAB for the more optimal archery feats, so unless being used for something else a feat put into one of these is not a total loss as they do have some uses, disarming, pinning and sundering etc... Your build should look something akin to this Human Ranger 4 / bard 4 Ranger 1 - point blank shot, precise shot Ranger 2 - rapid shot (ranger) Ranger 3 - weapon focus (bow of choice) Ranger 4 - Bard 1 - Bard 2 - x feat Bard 3 - Bard 4 - seeing as how at 6 th level you have a BAB of +5 you don't qualify for some of the more interesting feats, but you do have some choices. You could take the feat natural bond (cadv) and give your measly animal companion a nice little boost with the added druid levels to determine his abilities. There are also some feats to consider for future advancement: Deadeye Shot (PHB2) - alright if you have SA or SKRM Penetrating Shot (PHB2) - 60 ft shot affecting everyone not too shabby Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2) - alright but fighter levels needed Manyshot(PHB) - you'll get it a couple of levels anyways Shot on the run (PHB) - well alright depending on your attack style Improved precise shot (PHB) - high requirements; likely you wont have time for it Able Sniper (RotW) Plunging Shot (RotW) - if you have height advantage an extra +1d6 dmg isnt too bad Woodland archer (RotW) - excellent feat, i really recommend it Greater many shot (Psionics) - awesome if you can qualify for it Improved Rapidshot (CW) - good no more nasty -2 If you happen to have some psionics these arent too bad, but again you need psionics: psionic shot greater psionic shot fell shot return shot keep in mind when i say psionics i mean a powerpoint reserve, so 1 powerpoint gives you access to these feats.