Archer paladin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archer paladin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
08-25-06, 04:33 PM I was looking at this thread on why there are no ranged paladins (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690574). I figured that they're mechanically a somewhat difficult to build class/style, since dexterity is one of the few stats paladins can afford to leave low, and smiting evil at range requires either being an elf or taking a scarce feat. I'm just wondering about your thoughts on how to build an archer paladin. I don't think you could make one as effective as the classical power attack/cleave/great cleaving greatsword paladin, but I'm wondering if you can make one that's at least somewhat viable. My thoughts were something like this:

30 point buy

Race: Human

Strength: 14 (6)
Dexterity: 13 (5)
Constitution: 14 (6)
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 17 (13)
Charisma: 8

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery
3. Serenity
6. Ranged Smite Evil
9. Precise Shot
12. Rapid Shot
15. Mounted Combat
18. Mounted Archery

Wisdom is to be maxed out, of course.

Skills... only two per level. I'm thinking that keeping sense motive maxed out would be good (along with lots of detect evil) to keep an eye on who's messin' around with us. A bit of concentration, ride, and knowledge (religion) would be good.

Thoughts?

UPDATE: The positions of Zen Archery and Serenity are switched from being serenity 1, zen archery 3 to the other way around, because serenity requires divine grace.
fansy
08-25-06, 05:28 PM Why did you gimp Cha and add points into Dex if you have Zen Archery? Cha is soo much better for you, as a paladin, and Dex is doing no work...

Edit: NM, missed the Rapid Shot in there...but still...
JulesCARV
08-25-06, 05:32 PM Serenity means that wisdom "powers" all of the paladin abilities (divine grace, smite evil, lay on hands, turn undead), and dexterity 13 is a prerequisite of Rapid Shot. In addition, dexterity lower than 12 would be kinda bad anyway, what with even full plate having a maximum dexterity AC bonus of +1.
fansy
08-25-06, 05:36 PM Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score.

But, if the feat is ok with your GM, then the build looks pretty good.
JulesCARV
08-25-06, 05:53 PM Yeah... I reached a bit with the Serenity feat. I think it's strictly a 3.0 feat, since it's from Dragon #306 or something... but I figured, "this is a rather weak fighting style for a rather weak class. I'll stretch things a bit to try to make it halfway decent."
PhoenixInferno
08-25-06, 05:54 PM Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score.You mean like Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor)?
ninjarabbit
08-25-06, 06:10 PM paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon)

required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization)
ORC_Tao
08-25-06, 06:29 PM paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon)

required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization)

In general, I like it... although it actually has to be a diety that favors shortbow. Unfortunately, I can't find a Greyhawk or Eberron diety that fits the bill. Both the Silver Flame and Ehlonna favor the longbow, but that's not viable for a mounted archer. I even checked the pantheons from Deities and Demigods and couldn't come up with a single god that favored the shortbow. Ugh.

Personally, I would suggest Paladin 5/Ranger4/Wild Plains Outrider 3/Beastmaster 1/Ranger 5-11. Probably not "optimal", but it should just about get the job done.
PhaedrusXY
08-25-06, 06:32 PM In general, I like it... although it actually has to be a diety that favors shortbow. Unfortunately, I can't find a Greyhawk or Eberron diety that fits the bill. Both the Silver Flame and Ehlonna favor the longbow, but that's not viable for a mounted archer. I even checked the pantheons from Deities and Demigods and couldn't come up with a single god that favored the shortbow. Ugh.Edit: Looked it up. ;) You can use composite longbows while mounted, and longbow proficiency = composite longbow proficiency, etc. You can use a composite longbow while mounted.
<SNIP>
For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
ORC_Tao
08-25-06, 06:41 PM You can use composite longbows while mounted. I don't remember if longbow proficiency and composite longbow proficiency are the same, though...

Good catch. They are. Ehlonna or Silver Flame it is. :D
Slyver
08-25-06, 07:02 PM Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score.

But, if the feat is ok with your GM, then the build looks pretty good.
Umm, ok.

So I guess weapon finesse, zen archery, power throw, carmadine monk, kung fu genius, asthetic mage, blah, blah, blah ad naseum are all off limits to you. That's really too bad. It's one of the most common type's of feats in the game.

OP, If I were going to try to actually play this, I might try to convince my DM that some of the ranger archery spells should be divinely granted to my paladin archer. Paladins just aren't made to be archers. That little extra push might make them viable.

Slyver
PhoenixInferno
08-25-06, 07:04 PM Better yet, I might try some crazy stunt with Archivist and Prestige Paladin...
ninjarabbit
08-25-06, 07:06 PM paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon)

required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization)

And oddly enough this is the same build I use for a twf paladin, of course subbing the archery feats for twf feats, oversized twf fighting, and finding a diety with a longsword or other one handed weapon as a favored weapon (much easier to find a diety for this one).
Slyver
08-25-06, 07:17 PM Better yet, I might try some crazy stunt with Archivist and Prestige Paladin...
Now that has potential. Only problem is getting turn undead in there. The standard trick is to use sacred exorcist (or of course take one level of cleric), neither of which is overly appealing. SE takes too long and cleric is mostly a wasted level (although it could net two useful feats, weapon focus (or improved init) and point blank shot). Come to think of it, it also provides 2 fort and will, the only thing it loses is BAB. Maybe something like:

Cleric 1/Archivist 4/Prestige Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 10

Feats
1) Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Weapon focus longbow
3) Mounted Combat
6) Power attack
9) Servant of the Heavens
12) Ranged Smite
15) ...

Hmm, I'm not liking it. Way too MAD. Archivist may not be the best choice. Might be better off going with a more traditional prestige paladin build, despite not having access to the spells. Maybe something in place of fist of raziel, since it requires two completely useless feats.

Slyver
PhoenixInferno
08-25-06, 07:21 PM Master of Radiance (Libris Mortis) gets Turn Undead a little faster than Sacred Exorcist, I believe.
JulesCARV
08-25-06, 07:28 PM One possibility would be to skip the mounted combat feats, then go for Monk 4/Paladin 16, replacing Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery with Improved Initiative and Ascetic Knight. The wisdom modifier will end up being better than full plate anyway, even leaving aside the potential to boost AC.

Maybe to elevate dexterity and maybe intelligence a bit at the expense of wisdom... like, wisdom 16, dexterity 14, and intelligence 10.
Surreal
08-25-06, 07:37 PM Could I do a ranged smite with the splitting enhancement and/or Greater Manyshot?
runestar
08-25-06, 10:50 PM Could I do a ranged smite with the splitting enhancement and/or Greater Manyshot?
I think it would work for the splitting enhancement but not on manyshot.:P Because of the way they were worded...
Ganbor
08-25-06, 11:28 PM Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery
3. Serenity
6. Ranged Smite Evil
9. Precise Shot
Nitpick: I would swap Precise Shot and Zen Archery... Effective +4 in most cases (IMO) vs +2.
JulesCARV
08-26-06, 01:14 AM Cleric 1/Archivist 4/Prestige Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 10

BTW, Prestige Paladin has a prerequisite of +4 BAB, whereas this build gets +2 BAB by level 5.
wallaceclenchfist
08-26-06, 01:18 AM Why is it that I always see these "great builds" that don't use the standard 25 point buy?

I remember bringing this up before and getting blasted. I then checked on a lot of the builds in the library and found out I was pretty justified in my observation.

I fail to see the relevence of a build which doesn't use normal build rules. Sure, it's a fun exercise, but then again, building a 20th level commoner with 60 point buy could be considered fun too, but ultimately of little use to the majority of people reading this forum.

Not a huge criticism. Just a note.
PhoenixInferno
08-26-06, 01:53 AM Why is it that I always see these "great builds" that don't use the standard 25 point buy?

I remember bringing this up before and getting blasted. I then checked on a lot of the builds in the library and found out I was pretty justified in my observation.

I fail to see the relevence of a build which doesn't use normal build rules. Sure, it's a fun exercise, but then again, building a 20th level commoner with 60 point buy could be considered fun too, but ultimately of little use to the majority of people reading this forum.

Not a huge criticism. Just a note.
I would also point you to JosephKell's Gish Thread where builds were presented with a variety of point buys.
runestar
08-26-06, 01:54 AM Is 25 point buy that standard?:confused:
Slyver
08-26-06, 10:36 AM BTW, Prestige Paladin has a prerequisite of +4 BAB, whereas this build gets +2 BAB by level 5.
A good point. I didn't like the build anyways. I was just throwing out ideas. It is something I will have to think on.

Is 25 point buy that standard?
I very, VERY rarely see anyone asking for help with a character using 25 point buy on this board. I have also never known a group to use it. From my experience, it is the rarest possible stat production method. Maybe you're just playing with the wrong group...

Slyver
JulesCARV
08-26-06, 11:09 PM For a 25 point buy version, simply change wisdom from 17 to 15, I suppose.
Keevo_Darkwood
08-27-06, 08:47 PM Say, Jules, I know this isn't quite on-topic, but.... :thinks:

....if I were to examine the character sheet of this would-be paladin archer, would I find anything resembling "Kikkyo" written/typed in the space intended for the character's name?

Just a passing thought. :D
legowarrior
08-27-06, 09:41 PM Does the elf have a great substitute level that allows for ranged smite?
Istarion
08-27-06, 10:07 PM Say, Jules, I know this isn't quite on-topic, but.... :thinks:

....if I were to examine the character sheet of this would-be paladin archer, would I find anything resembling "Kikkyo" written/typed in the space intended for the character's name?

Just a passing thought. :D

more OoT yet: I always imagined kikkyo as a cleric archer, more than as a paladin... at least in her pre-death period... Afterwards... I don't know... I see her like a not-so-creepy Necrocarnate (style points for using serpents to gather essentia)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 08-25-06, 04:33 PM	I was looking at this thread on why there are no ranged paladins (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690574). I figured that they're mechanically a somewhat difficult to build class/style, since dexterity is one of the few stats paladins can afford to leave low, and smiting evil at range requires either being an elf or taking a scarce feat. I'm just wondering about your thoughts on how to build an archer paladin. I don't think you could make one as effective as the classical power attack/cleave/great cleaving greatsword paladin, but I'm wondering if you can make one that's at least somewhat viable. My thoughts were something like this: 30 point buy Race: Human Strength: 14 (6) Dexterity: 13 (5) Constitution: 14 (6) Intelligence: 8 Wisdom: 17 (13) Charisma: 8 Feats: 1. Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery 3. Serenity 6. Ranged Smite Evil 9. Precise Shot 12. Rapid Shot 15. Mounted Combat 18. Mounted Archery Wisdom is to be maxed out, of course. Skills... only two per level. I'm thinking that keeping sense motive maxed out would be good (along with lots of detect evil) to keep an eye on who's messin' around with us. A bit of concentration, ride, and knowledge (religion) would be good. Thoughts? UPDATE: The positions of Zen Archery and Serenity are switched from being serenity 1, zen archery 3 to the other way around, because serenity requires divine grace.
fansy 08-25-06, 05:28 PM	Why did you gimp Cha and add points into Dex if you have Zen Archery? Cha is soo much better for you, as a paladin, and Dex is doing no work... Edit: NM, missed the Rapid Shot in there...but still...
JulesCARV 08-25-06, 05:32 PM	Serenity means that wisdom "powers" all of the paladin abilities (divine grace, smite evil, lay on hands, turn undead), and dexterity 13 is a prerequisite of Rapid Shot. In addition, dexterity lower than 12 would be kinda bad anyway, what with even full plate having a maximum dexterity AC bonus of +1.
fansy 08-25-06, 05:36 PM	Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score. But, if the feat is ok with your GM, then the build looks pretty good.
JulesCARV 08-25-06, 05:53 PM	Yeah... I reached a bit with the Serenity feat. I think it's strictly a 3.0 feat, since it's from Dragon #306 or something... but I figured, "this is a rather weak fighting style for a rather weak class. I'll stretch things a bit to try to make it halfway decent."
PhoenixInferno 08-25-06, 05:54 PM	Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score.You mean like Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor)?
ninjarabbit 08-25-06, 06:10 PM	paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon) required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization)
ORC_Tao 08-25-06, 06:29 PM	paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon) required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization) In general, I like it... although it actually has to be a diety that favors shortbow. Unfortunately, I can't find a Greyhawk or Eberron diety that fits the bill. Both the Silver Flame and Ehlonna favor the longbow, but that's not viable for a mounted archer. I even checked the pantheons from Deities and Demigods and couldn't come up with a single god that favored the shortbow. Ugh. Personally, I would suggest Paladin 5/Ranger4/Wild Plains Outrider 3/Beastmaster 1/Ranger 5-11. Probably not "optimal", but it should just about get the job done.
PhaedrusXY 08-25-06, 06:32 PM	In general, I like it... although it actually has to be a diety that favors shortbow. Unfortunately, I can't find a Greyhawk or Eberron diety that fits the bill. Both the Silver Flame and Ehlonna favor the longbow, but that's not viable for a mounted archer. I even checked the pantheons from Deities and Demigods and couldn't come up with a single god that favored the shortbow. Ugh.Edit: Looked it up. ;) You can use composite longbows while mounted, and longbow proficiency = composite longbow proficiency, etc. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. <SNIP> For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
ORC_Tao 08-25-06, 06:41 PM	You can use composite longbows while mounted. I don't remember if longbow proficiency and composite longbow proficiency are the same, though... Good catch. They are. Ehlonna or Silver Flame it is. :D
Slyver 08-25-06, 07:02 PM	Wow, I love to optimize/min-max, but Serenity is a feat not even I would take. Seems a bit suspect that a mere feat can just reassign important abilities to a new ability score. But, if the feat is ok with your GM, then the build looks pretty good. Umm, ok. So I guess weapon finesse, zen archery, power throw, carmadine monk, kung fu genius, asthetic mage, blah, blah, blah ad naseum are all off limits to you. That's really too bad. It's one of the most common type's of feats in the game. OP, If I were going to try to actually play this, I might try to convince my DM that some of the ranger archery spells should be divinely granted to my paladin archer. Paladins just aren't made to be archers. That little extra push might make them viable. Slyver
PhoenixInferno 08-25-06, 07:04 PM	Better yet, I might try some crazy stunt with Archivist and Prestige Paladin...
ninjarabbit 08-25-06, 07:06 PM	paladin5/ranger11(archery combat style obviously)/pioustemplar4 (try to find a diety that uses a bowas the favored weapon) required and recommended feats: devoted tracker, true believer, weapon focus: bow, ranged smite, extra smite, improved critcal (since you already have weapon focus and weapon specialization) And oddly enough this is the same build I use for a twf paladin, of course subbing the archery feats for twf feats, oversized twf fighting, and finding a diety with a longsword or other one handed weapon as a favored weapon (much easier to find a diety for this one).
Slyver 08-25-06, 07:17 PM	Better yet, I might try some crazy stunt with Archivist and Prestige Paladin... Now that has potential. Only problem is getting turn undead in there. The standard trick is to use sacred exorcist (or of course take one level of cleric), neither of which is overly appealing. SE takes too long and cleric is mostly a wasted level (although it could net two useful feats, weapon focus (or improved init) and point blank shot). Come to think of it, it also provides 2 fort and will, the only thing it loses is BAB. Maybe something like: Cleric 1/Archivist 4/Prestige Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 10 Feats 1) Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Weapon focus longbow 3) Mounted Combat 6) Power attack 9) Servant of the Heavens 12) Ranged Smite 15) ... Hmm, I'm not liking it. Way too MAD. Archivist may not be the best choice. Might be better off going with a more traditional prestige paladin build, despite not having access to the spells. Maybe something in place of fist of raziel, since it requires two completely useless feats. Slyver
PhoenixInferno 08-25-06, 07:21 PM	Master of Radiance (Libris Mortis) gets Turn Undead a little faster than Sacred Exorcist, I believe.
JulesCARV 08-25-06, 07:28 PM	One possibility would be to skip the mounted combat feats, then go for Monk 4/Paladin 16, replacing Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery with Improved Initiative and Ascetic Knight. The wisdom modifier will end up being better than full plate anyway, even leaving aside the potential to boost AC. Maybe to elevate dexterity and maybe intelligence a bit at the expense of wisdom... like, wisdom 16, dexterity 14, and intelligence 10.
Surreal 08-25-06, 07:37 PM	Could I do a ranged smite with the splitting enhancement and/or Greater Manyshot?
runestar 08-25-06, 10:50 PM	Could I do a ranged smite with the splitting enhancement and/or Greater Manyshot? I think it would work for the splitting enhancement but not on manyshot.:P Because of the way they were worded...
Ganbor 08-25-06, 11:28 PM	Feats: 1. Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery 3. Serenity 6. Ranged Smite Evil 9. Precise Shot Nitpick: I would swap Precise Shot and Zen Archery... Effective +4 in most cases (IMO) vs +2.
JulesCARV 08-26-06, 01:14 AM	Cleric 1/Archivist 4/Prestige Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 10 BTW, Prestige Paladin has a prerequisite of +4 BAB, whereas this build gets +2 BAB by level 5.
wallaceclenchfist 08-26-06, 01:18 AM	Why is it that I always see these "great builds" that don't use the standard 25 point buy? I remember bringing this up before and getting blasted. I then checked on a lot of the builds in the library and found out I was pretty justified in my observation. I fail to see the relevence of a build which doesn't use normal build rules. Sure, it's a fun exercise, but then again, building a 20th level commoner with 60 point buy could be considered fun too, but ultimately of little use to the majority of people reading this forum. Not a huge criticism. Just a note.
PhoenixInferno 08-26-06, 01:53 AM	Why is it that I always see these "great builds" that don't use the standard 25 point buy? I remember bringing this up before and getting blasted. I then checked on a lot of the builds in the library and found out I was pretty justified in my observation. I fail to see the relevence of a build which doesn't use normal build rules. Sure, it's a fun exercise, but then again, building a 20th level commoner with 60 point buy could be considered fun too, but ultimately of little use to the majority of people reading this forum. Not a huge criticism. Just a note. I would also point you to JosephKell's Gish Thread where builds were presented with a variety of point buys.
runestar 08-26-06, 01:54 AM	Is 25 point buy that standard?:confused:
Slyver 08-26-06, 10:36 AM	BTW, Prestige Paladin has a prerequisite of +4 BAB, whereas this build gets +2 BAB by level 5. A good point. I didn't like the build anyways. I was just throwing out ideas. It is something I will have to think on. Is 25 point buy that standard? I very, VERY rarely see anyone asking for help with a character using 25 point buy on this board. I have also never known a group to use it. From my experience, it is the rarest possible stat production method. Maybe you're just playing with the wrong group... Slyver
JulesCARV 08-26-06, 11:09 PM	For a 25 point buy version, simply change wisdom from 17 to 15, I suppose.
Keevo_Darkwood 08-27-06, 08:47 PM	Say, Jules, I know this isn't quite on-topic, but.... :thinks: ....if I were to examine the character sheet of this would-be paladin archer, would I find anything resembling "Kikkyo" written/typed in the space intended for the character's name? Just a passing thought. :D
legowarrior 08-27-06, 09:41 PM	Does the elf have a great substitute level that allows for ranged smite?
Istarion 08-27-06, 10:07 PM	Say, Jules, I know this isn't quite on-topic, but.... :thinks: ....if I were to examine the character sheet of this would-be paladin archer, would I find anything resembling "Kikkyo" written/typed in the space intended for the character's name? Just a passing thought. :D more OoT yet: I always imagined kikkyo as a cleric archer, more than as a paladin... at least in her pre-death period... Afterwards... I don't know... I see her like a not-so-creepy Necrocarnate (style points for using serpents to gather essentia)