Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noobi 11-26-03, 11:21 AM	I want to create an archer class. The following prc archers seem to have gotten alot of reccomendation: Arcane Archer Deepwoods Sniper Order of the Bow Initiate Peerless Archer I have a knack for missing the obvious (which is why I stay away from spell-casting classes) so would someone please point out why Peerless Archer and Deep Woods Sniper seem to be more commonly chosen than OOBI? I am considering taking 10 levels of OOBI once I make the prerequisites for the class, but have seen alot of people who throw in 2 or 3 levels of DWS AA or PA into the mix. Thanx
ksbsnowowl 11-26-03, 12:36 PM	Reasons for taking various archer PrC's: Arcane Archer- -enhanced arrows -not much else Order of the Bow Initiate- -Ranged Sneak Attack -Close Combat shot (no AoO for firing in melee) -Superior Weapon focus/spec. -Free Attack (free shot on any foe hit by an AoO from an ally) -Zen Archery (x2) -Dex bonus and Wis bonus STACK for attack rolls w/in 30 ft. Deepwood Sniper- First 2 levels -Keen Arrows (stacks with Imp. Crit. in 3.0) -Projectile Improved Critical (your crits with a bow now do x4 damage) -Concealment reduction 10% Later levels -Safe Poison Use -Greater concealment reducers -Consistent Aim (reroll bad attack rolls) -Projectile Imp. Crit. (your crits now do x5 damage) Peerless Archer- First 3 levels -Ranged Sneak Attack -Ability to craft magic arrows (free but limited use of the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat) -Power Shot (power attack with a bow) -Sharp Shooting (ingnore degrees of concealment AND cover - by 5th level allies in melee no longer provide cover to the baddies) Later levels -more sneak attack -craft better magic arrows -ignore more cover -Threaten (treat your bow as a 10' reach weapon for threatening area - Allows AoO and possibly flanking - combine with combat reflexes) Now, several of these abilities are very powerful in their own right, but combine some of them and you can do some really sick things with an archer. Combine levels of peerless archer and OotBI and at higher levels you can fire upwards of 18 arrows a round (11 at one foe, one each at other foes). Doesn't provoke AoO for firing in melee and can make several AoO's with his bow. Great combatant that can hold his own when bad guys get close. For a look at a level-by-level build look here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129327&highlight=%2Aarcher%2A) Combine levels of Peerless Archer with DWS, and by level 10 the character can do triple digit damage with a single bow shot. By 20th level that number can rise above 500 with a single shot. Have a look at it here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131826&highlight=%2Aarcher%2A) As you can see, these PrC's can be very powerful. I prefer the build in the first link, but many other people suggest adding 2 DWS levels and 3 PA levels to an OotBI build. Not a bad suggestion, just not the one I would recommend.
Neonsamurai 11-26-03, 12:58 PM	When playing with 3.0 rules i would also consider the cleric archer (http://minmax.neonsamurai.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=33&mode=flat&order=0&thold=0) which is still useful in 3.5 but not as insanely strong as in 3.0
Funny Slaughter 11-26-03, 01:02 PM	in dont have the exact build online, look at the min/max vault (http://minmax.neonsamurai.de) or search a bit, the first one was made by chris' imo. the base of a 3.5 fighter/archer is, of course, ranger. i see skillpoints as a very important point for an archer, thus tending to take ranger as a base. since you need WF for the deepwood sniper anyhow and get endurance from ranger3 templar1 is a nice option if you want to spend points into knowledge(religion) somehow. i take this option by spending a feat on education early on, its a good trade for weapon specialisation, mettle and a minor spell. and since OotBI requires WS i think its a good way to avoid additional levels of fighter and the loss of many skillpoints. race: elf (eventually wood elf) follows solonor thelandira 1 ranger1 education 2 ranger2 (rapid shot) 3 fighter1 PBS, weapon focus(longbow) 4 fighter2 far shot 5 ranger3 (endurance) 6 templar1 (WS) precise shot 7 deepwood sniper1 8 DS2 9 DS3 quickdraw 10 peerless archer1 11 PA2 12 PA3 *feat* 13 OotBI1 - *feat* *feat* 20 OotBI8 what do you think? gs Funny
Frosty The Snowman 11-26-03, 01:45 PM	Unfortunately Complete Warrior has changed the Order of the Bow Initiate significantly. Free Attack - Gone Zen Archery - Gone (though the feat still exists) Superior Weapon Specialization - Gone Banked Shot - Gone Ranged Sneak Attack - Gone Close Combat Shot - Still there Greater Weapon Focus - Still there Ranged Precision - New (as a standard action) Extended Precision - New Sharp Shooting - New The class seems significantly weaker to me, unless you can use Ranged precision with Shot on the Run.
Noobi 11-26-03, 04:27 PM	First, My group (or I at least) won't be using the Complete Warrior book. Ok i still don't see why people would want to mix up levels of DWS, PA, or AA with OOBI. Arcane Archer- "enhanced arrows" doesn't seem like much of a reason to strive for one level of that class. By the time you reach minimum requirements for that PrC, you should already have a +1 bow if not higher. Unless you have one of those stingy DM's. Granted an additional +1 is nice to have, but again, next time you're in town, have your magic bow kicked up a notch, or buy some magic arrows. Deepwood Sniper- keen and the improved crit are nice, but again, its 2 levels used up in the hope of rolling 18, 19, and 20 on a regular basis. I do like the concealment reduction though. To me, to take only a couple levels of this class would be a waste. It looks as though the later levels make the lower ones more powerful than when you first receive them. Peerless Archer- Again, the effort to get to the minimum requirements for this level seem a waste. A +7 BAB, 10 ranks of craft (bowmaking) [there's a useful skill]. In return you get skill focus (bowyer) for free. Yippee! and range sneak attack (this IS good). Again the cover/concealment reductionis a decent ability. But, making magic arrows? let's break down costs: one +1 arrow = 20gp, 1 xp. Not bad. half the price of baought arrows of the same quantity, but it takes you 2 days to make 50. So, if you keep progressing, by the time you can make +3 arrows, it will take you 9,000gp, 720 xp and almost 2 and a half weeks of making arrows to get 50. For my buck, I'll pay double and spend that 16 days dungeon crawling, making my money back. Power shot is nice. Threaten is awesome. to bad it come so late in the levels. This is something I think OOBI should have had to agument close combat shot. From what people had said about PA, I was diappointed when I saw it. Thanx all for your input. I think I will go 5 levels of fighter/ 10 Order of the BI and see what happens after that.
ksbsnowowl 11-27-03, 04:40 AM	Originally posted by Noobi Arcane Archer- "enhanced arrows" doesn't seem like much of a reason to strive for one level of that class.I agree. I wasn't suggesting you take it, merely that that is why others may take it. Deepwood Sniper- keen and the improved crit are nice, but again, its 2 levels used up in the hope of rolling 18, 19, and 20 on a regular basis. Who needs to roll when you can let Hunter's Mercy auto hit and threaten for you? Not that you should do it all the time, but it can be a very effective tactic when you need it. Really, look at the build I linked if you haven't done so already. Peerless Archer- Again, the effort to get to the minimum requirements for this level seem a waste. A +7 BAB, 10 ranks of craft (bowmaking) [there's a useful skill]. How does a +7 BAB make it an effort to attain the prereq's? Yeah, you can't take it at level 6, but you can take it at level 8 after having stuck in a few levels of OotBI first. I would say the requirements pale in comparison to what you get from this class. Bow making may not be the most useful skill in the world, but it sure is useful when you're stuck in the middle of the wilderness and you start to run out of arrows. Towns aren't always nearby, you know. Same thing with magic arrows; no, you probably don't want to make a ton of them, but they're useful to have after the BBEG dispell magiced your GMW arrows. As you stated, Power Shot and Threaten are good. Not to sound smug or gloating, but an OotBI/PA combo build like mine will be much more effective in combat than an archer that takes OotBI all the way to 10. The only advantage the OotBI will have is slightly different base saves, and the banked shot ability (which is generally agreed to not be that great). The combo build gives you so much more in return. The combo build even increases the Sneak Attack damage over an OotBI 10. Thanx all for your input. I think I will go 5 levels of fighter/ 10 Order of the BI and see what happens after that. This was the main reason for this quote - response post. Do NOT take a fifth level of fighter (unless your DM won't allow multiclassing). The 5th level of fighter grants you virtually nothing. You get a grand total of +1 BAB and 2 + int mod skill points. That's it. No feats, no abilities, nothing! Aside from the d8 hit die, you might as well take that level in the Warrior NPC class. It would net you the exact same result. Instead, take your first level as a ranger, followed by 4 of fighter, and look at what you gain over the fighter level: 3.0 - 8 more skill points - a better skill list (including hide, listen, spot, move silently, wildlore) - an overall +2 bonus on your fort save - a favored enemy - Track - Virtual Ambidex and TWF - The ability to use wands of ranger spells (don't believe me? Look on p. 175 of the 3.0 DMG under 'spell trigger,' or search for other archery posts by me - I've posted it several times in the last month) *there is absolutely no disadvantage 3.5 - 12 more skill points - a far superior skill list - a favored enemy - Track - an overall +2 to your Fort and Ref saves - the ability to use wands of Ranger spells - Wild Empathy * But you do start with 2 fewer hit points That ability to use wands is extremely powerful. It allows you to use wands of Hunter's Mercy, CLW, Forest Fold, and many other useful spells.
Funny Slaughter 11-27-03, 05:44 AM	DS and PA have both good abilities at low levels. the PA gets power shot, increadible powerful with the high to-hits you can get using a bow, concealment reduction is also not bad to have. the better crit-multiplyer, safe poison use and again concealment reduction of the DS is also nothing to sneeze at. all three PrCs have similar requirements, all feats are taken anyhow if you focus on archery. OotBI is not a bad class (i dont have complete so no opinion about the new one) but you get only 2+int skillpoints per level, thats really not much if you started out as ranger. mixing a few levels of other PrCs give you the opportunity to up a few skills again. since you have about 14 (15) levels to play with i dont see a reason why one should take only one PrC if you are not limited within your campaign. arcane archer, on the other hand, is imo useless. its a nice dip for an arcane caster or a good class to take into epic since GMW does not cover epic weapons. since you need very different things to qualify there is no synergy by taking AA while the other three archer PrCs blend into eachother really well. gs Funny
Ranthanas 11-27-03, 07:06 AM	3.0 OOBI is rarer than the others because you must take 4 levels of fighter for weapon specialisation to qualify for (gone in 3.5) On the other hand, 2 levels of it are wonderful- Close Combat Shot is effectively an epic feat (although one of last resort) and it has high will saves, which are going to be your bad save. Arcane Archer is only worth it for a mage taking a 2 level dip for Imbue Arrow (the other abilities are poor). The 3.5 Improved Precise Shot treads on the toes of most of the archery PrCs by removing cover modifiers in one blow. Fighter 5 is a waste of space (or rather the 5th level of fighter is). In 3.5 my base for an archer would be Ranger 6. You might be 2 feats and 7hp behind a fighter, but you are 36 skillpoints up, 4 points of Reflex Save up and gain a lot of extra abilities (Endurance, Track, 2 favoured enemies, Animal Empathy and an Animal Companion, along with a much, much better skill list). Other than that, mix and match the abilities you want.
Noobi 12-01-03, 03:48 PM	Thanx all for the various input. ksbsnowowl - I've read alot of your posts, and I must say I see alot of good ideas and information in them. As regards the build you are suggesting, there a couple "problems" I foresee 1. I can't justify taking the 4 fighter/1 ranger combo. I am not going to play a human or a half-elf as a race. Taking the build you suggested would penalize me a -20% XP loss as soon as I take the single level of ranger, and wouldn't go away until I gain 2 more levels of ranger. So, while my companions are getting ready to move on to Epic adventures, I'd still be trying to attain 18th level. Not a very appealing sitution. My math may be off a bit. 2. While I, unlike some other people, know about rangers & paladins being able to use wands, our DM has already stated that Hunter's Mercy is too powerful for a 1st level spell, and won't allow it in his campaign. Essentially, we all (in our group) agreed to this. In our games, anything a PC can take (for classes, feats, etc.,) an NPC is also allowed to take. So imagine if you will four drow archers, 2 with bows and 2 with wands of Hunter's Mercy at the end of a 50 foot hallway. Essentially one round, maybe 2 later, we all need to roll up new characters. Not a very appealing situation for being a PC. I am not by any means telling you, or anyone else who has been kind enough to post a reply, that your information is of no use to me. I have gotten a fair amount of useful information and ideas. I plan on using alot of them as well. Once more, thank you all, and Happy Adventuring
ksbsnowowl 12-01-03, 06:45 PM	Just to bring to your attention, you would still be able to take the single ranger level without penalty if you were to play as a Wood Elf. Don't know if you were leaning toward elf, or even if your DM would allow it, just letting you know it's another possible option. If the build doesn't fit for you, that's alright. I just offer my opinion, which should be no better than anyone else's.