Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nastynate 12-27-06, 12:23 PM	This was just a fun little experiment I have been toying around with. Its a 20th level build, made with 32 point buy, and fairly standard equipment that doesn't exceed the normal wealth level guidlines. I'm sure there are already plenty of similar builds out there (I can't be the only one to have made a persistent sneak attacker), but I haven't seen a nice archer build in a while so here ya go. :) Starting Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 10 +4 levels (Intelligence) +1 levels (Strength) +4 inherent (Intelligence) +4 inherent (Wisdom) +5 inherent (Strength) +6 enhancement belt of magnificence (all) Adjusted Ability Scores Str 26, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 30, Wis 26, Cha 16 Human Archivist 14 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Shadowbane Stalker 3 CL 18, 9th level spells, and +20 BAB (with divine power) 01 Rogue: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 02 Archivist: Scribe Scroll 03 Archivist: Extend Spell 04 Archivist 05 Archivist 06 Archivist: Zen Archery 07 Archivist 08 Archivist 09 Sacred Exorcist: Craven 10 Fighter: Rapid Shot 11 Archivist 12 Archivist: Many Shot 13 Archivist: Persistent Spell 14 Archivist 15 Shadowbane Stalker: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell 16 Shadowbane Stalker 17 Shadowbane Stalker 18 Archivist: Greater Manyshot 19 Archivist 20 Archivist Nifty Items Nightsticks x3 (more if you need them, but 3 are sufficient to persist your three key spells) +5 Splitting, Collision, Composite Longbow (+8 Strength bonus) Greater Bracers of Archery Persistent Spells Divine Power Divine Favor Hunter's Eye (+1d6 sneak attack per 3 levels) gotta love those ranger spells. Key tactic: use Dark Knowledge (dark secret) to Stun the enemy (or enemies). Without even using custom items you can get a +35 modifier to your Knowledge checks (23 ranks, +2 lore mastery, +10 Intelligence) with this build, so stunning is all but assured. Stunned enemies are denied their Dex bonuses so they are now subject to sneak attacks (yay!) With Zen Archery, Persistent Divine Power, Divine Favor, & Hunter's Eye, greater bracers of archery, point blank shot, greater manyshot, a +2 bonus to hit from stunning, and the bow mentioned above, you get this. Greater Manyshot: +33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+33 Damage: 1d8+42 (+9d6 sneak attack) per arrow For an average of 624 points of damage per round. This doesn't even take into account spells like arrow storm, arrowsplit (sick, sick, sick!), polymorph, hunter's mercy, or other nifty swift action spells that make this even nastier. What makes this so sweet IMO is that dark knowledge requires a move action, and greater manyshot requires a standard action (and sneak attack applies to all the arrows fired!). Throwing in an arrowsplit spell as a swift action just makes it even more deadly. It just flows so smoothly. Peace Out Y'all -Nate-
Caelic 12-27-06, 12:30 PM	Since you're relying on sneak attack, you really should make room for Craven in the build. An extra +20 damage per shot would drastically kick up your potential.
FriendlyFrog 12-27-06, 12:30 PM	Hierophant actually doesn't progress your casting, it only stacks for determining your caster level, not spells per day.
nastynate 12-27-06, 12:50 PM	Since you're relying on sneak attack, you really should make room for Craven in the build. An extra +20 damage per shot would drastically kick up your potential. I really should. I simply forgot about it when I came up with this. Thanks for the tip. Hierophant actually doesn't progress your casting, it only stacks for determining your caster level, not spells per day. It doesn't make a huge difference in the effectiveness of the archery concept, but that would cut off a bunch of high level spells...I guess you have a very valid point. I'll just have to change it out for something better.
Rashomon 12-27-06, 01:00 PM	I think there was a rogue substitution level somewhere that lets you do half SA damage to SA immunes, but you have to flank the bugger, or something.
FriendlyFrog 12-27-06, 01:05 PM	I think there was a rogue substitution level somewhere that lets you do half SA damage to SA immunes, but you have to flank the bugger, or something. I remember reading about something like that, too. It was in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I believe.
nastynate 12-27-06, 03:28 PM	I remember reading about something like that, too. It was in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I believe. If anybody happens to know the specifics, please let me know. The updated build has a level of rogue, so presumably I can take this substitution level; does it replace trapfinding by any chance? -Peace- BTW: I'm up to an average of 704 points of damage w/o the arrowsplit spell. However, I'm not exactly sure how it stacks with the splitting enhancement or greater manyshot. How many arrows would that actually produce anyway?
Helmed Horror 12-27-06, 04:22 PM	sneak attack only applies to first arrow shot of multishot correct? Kinda like scorching ray... That is how I always thought it.. but i could be wrong.. grandmaster caelic didn't spot/take notice of this issue so i very well could be totally off base.
PhaedrusXY 12-27-06, 04:23 PM	sneak attack only applies to first arrow shot of multishot correct? you might have to revise your damage output...With Greater Manyshot, it applies to all of them. The feat is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and also can be found in the SRD. I think it is actually not a psionic feat.
Helmed Horror 12-27-06, 04:28 PM	sweet baby jesus what a feat.. never actually read it over before! i figured it was just some penalty reduction to manyshot when i hear of it... with that out of the way, the build seems legit. It just shows how amazing cleric archers can be, especially rogue/cleric ones!
HelloRaptor 12-27-06, 04:40 PM	Except it's not a Cleric, as Clerics wouldn't have access to the Ranger spell. ;)
Hyfigh 12-27-06, 04:43 PM	Would a splitting weapon help this at all? Edit: Forgot to add... Polymorph. Would the Arrow Demons special 2 for 1 ability work with this?
Iry 12-27-06, 05:22 PM	If anybody happens to know the specifics, please let me know. The updated build has a level of rogue, so presumably I can take this substitution level; does it replace trapfinding by any chance? -Peace- BTW: I'm up to an average of 704 points of damage w/o the arrowsplit spell. However, I'm not exactly sure how it stacks with the splitting enhancement or greater manyshot. How many arrows would that actually produce anyway? Penetrating Attack requires Rogue level 3, and allows you to deal half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) to creatures otherwise immune to sneak attack dice. In exchange, you no longer have the Trapfinding ability. Presumedly, they chose level 3 because that is the first time you have a number of sneak attack dice that can be divided by two and still have a single dice when rounded down. You must be a member of the Lightbringers organization, which is nothing more than a group of likeminded fellows dedicated towards obliterating the undead. There is a one time gold piece entry fee, and you are required to kill a certain number of undead each year, plus a few other minor adventure hooks.
Helmed Horror 12-27-06, 06:19 PM	meh... cleric archer is a general term :D Either way I would like to see how much more damage people can crank out of this build...
TheOne 12-27-06, 09:33 PM	Penetrating Attack requires Rogue level 3, and allows you to deal half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) to creatures otherwise immune to sneak attack dice. In exchange, you no longer have the Trapfinding ability. Presumedly, they chose level 3 because that is the first time you have a number of sneak attack dice that can be divided by two and still have a single dice when rounded down. Actually I think it is trap sense, not trapfinding, which is at level 3.
noneedforagain 12-27-06, 09:38 PM	can you explain the Tactics used with this character ? ie: Dark Knowledge (Dark Secret) ?? Wher edo they come from ? also is there a more recent version of Archivist other then whats found in the Heroes of Horror manual ? thanks
nastynate 12-28-06, 12:38 AM	Would a splitting weapon help this at all? Edit: Forgot to add... Polymorph. Would the Arrow Demons special 2 for 1 ability work with this? The build is already using a splitting weapon, so yes it helps. Also, I can get polymorph off of the adept spell list, so yes I can use it, but I don't have any way to change into an arrow demon. If I were to make this character an assimar and buy-off the level adjustment, I think I could though. I don't normally use the LA buy-off option though, and polymorph gives me a headache. :) I'll still consider it an option with the build, just not one I want to pursue at the moment. can you explain the Tactics used with this character ? ie: Dark Knowledge (Dark Secret) ?? Wher edo they come from ? also is there a more recent version of Archivist other then whats found in the Heroes of Horror manual ? thanks The tactics are quite simple actually. You persist divine power, divine favor, and hunter's eye through divine metamagic. Then you use dark knowledege: dark secret ( a Knowledge check) as a move action to stun the enemy or enemies, and finish them off with 8 arrows with +12d6 sneak attack damage each. The archivist is only found in heroes of horror, and there is no newer version (the book is only about a year old). Dark Secret is the 11th level dark knowledge ability of the archivist class. If you want to read about it, they released it for free on the website in the heroes of horror excerpt. Here's a link. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3 It would be nice to squeeze the archivist of nature and draconic archivist feats into the build, but I haven't found any way to squeeze in enough to make that happen, barring flaws which I refuse to use on principle (they make optimizing too easy). I am open to suggestions on how to get in more feats if anyone has any good ideas. Penetrating Attack requires Rogue level 3, and allows you to deal half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) to creatures otherwise immune to sneak attack dice. In exchange, you no longer have the Trapfinding ability. Presumedly, they chose level 3 because that is the first time you have a number of sneak attack dice that can be divided by two and still have a single dice when rounded down. You must be a member of the Lightbringers organization, which is nothing more than a group of likeminded fellows dedicated towards obliterating the undead. There is a one time gold piece entry fee, and you are required to kill a certain number of undead each year, plus a few other minor adventure hooks. I assume you mean trapsense. Hmm...three levels of rogue is do-able, but it would be a shame to lose those 9th level spells. The way this is built right now, I can always fall back on my magic to handle things that aren't subject to the archery combo. I don't think I want to lose that option, and I'm not sure that half sneak attack damage is even worth the trouble, when I can just use miracle or something equally as powerful to tackle those elementals, constructs, and undead. Its something to think about though. Thanks for the tip. -Peace-
SageBahamut 12-28-06, 01:40 AM	9th level spells, while nice for things such as Miracle and Gate, aren't your primary focus here. If your main focus is to be a Sneak Attack happy archer, then focus on that. 8th is a high enough spell level to crank out the nasty, and this way you get to be like "look, mom, it shoots through dracoliches!" and what's not to love about that?
neceros 12-28-06, 01:51 AM	Dread Secret: By speaking aloud a dread secret of the target creature, an archivist of 11th level or higher can dazzle a target creature for 1 round. Unlike other dark knowledge, this ability can be used only against a single creature. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, then the target is dazed for 1 round. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, then the target is stunned for 1 round (if the target is immune to being stunned but not immune to being dazed, such as most undead, then the archivist can choose to daze the target instead of stunning it). Does that not apply?
nastynate 12-28-06, 02:06 AM	9th level spells, while nice for things such as Miracle and Gate, aren't your primary focus here. If your main focus is to be a Sneak Attack happy archer, then focus on that. 8th is a high enough spell level to crank out the nasty, and this way you get to be like "look, mom, it shoots through dracoliches!" and what's not to love about that? My main focus is indeed to be a sneak attack happy archer, but I certainly don't want to become a one-trick pony either. Sneak attack is great and all, but in order to effect everything with it, and increase the damage to absurd levels (I'm pretty sure I can get this build up to +18d6 sneak attack fairly easily) I would lose out on versatily. The fact that I can bust out teleport, gate, chain lightning, or shapechange with this build, more than makes up for the fact that my dark knowledge/sneak attack combo won't do squat against an iron golem. I like having alternative options when push comes to shove, instead of forcing a single strategy on every encounter. That's what is so great about the divine archer builds; they ain't just archers. -Peace- P.S. I could just turn this into a pure archery concept build, but then it would actually become less playable as a character than it already is. Perhaps somebody else would like to post an alternative configuration of the concept to exploit assassin's stance, and the rogue substitution level from Castle Ravenloft, with three levels of the sneak attack thug thrown in for good measure; its certainly possible, though I doubt it would actually be better (it would just deal more sneak attack damage). :)
SageBahamut 12-28-06, 02:11 AM	I'm not saying you have to be a one-trick pony. I'm just saying that that one level of spell won't make that big a difference. After all, an Iron Golem isn't something a primary caster should be toe-to-toeing anyway. Most constructs are going to be more the forte of the "run in and chop it up" members of your party. It's yours to do with as you will, but given the choice between one and the other, I would go with the Rog3. Especially because, of the spells you wanted as examples, only Gate is actually level 9, and that's a cheap Candle away whenever you need it.
nastynate 12-28-06, 02:14 AM	Does that not apply? It still applies. You can only kill one creature at a time with the dark knowledge stun. You can also use greater invisibility, or win initiative, and simply unleash an arrow storm (the swift ranger spell) to nail a bunch of creatures at once. There are plenty of ways to make use of the sneak attack damage. The dark knowledge stunning is just the easiest; no save, seven times per day, move action...its tough to beat. You could also use dark knowledge (foe), to gain a bonus of +3d6 damage on all attacks against enemies too. This one even applies to your allies' attacks.
nastynate 12-28-06, 02:23 AM	I'm not saying you have to be a one-trick pony. I'm just saying that that one level of spell won't make that big a difference. After all, an Iron Golem isn't something a primary caster should be toe-to-toeing anyway. Most constructs are going to be more the forte of the "run in and chop it up" members of your party. It's yours to do with as you will, but given the choice between one and the other, I would go with the Rog3. Especially because, of the spells you wanted as examples, only Gate is actually level 9, and that's a cheap Candle away whenever you need it. True enough. I suppose the loss of 9th level spells isn't all that bad...but just the same (have you seen the 9th level spells available to archivists?), I intend to keep them. If you can propose a way to maintain an 18th level CL (+10d6 sneak attack with hunter's eye), the key feats needed, 9th level spells, and squeeze in the 3 levels of rogue, I'm all ears. I haven't been able to figure it out though.
The Mailman 12-28-06, 09:11 AM	Nice work, Nate. I've been running a more rogue-focused version of this for a few months now and it really is great. You're right that the beauty of this type of build is its flexibility. Instead of archivist, I just went with the more boring cleric/rogue/shadowbane stalker (with Seeker of the Misty Isle thrown in for fun) but I'm still the dedicated trap-springer/skill monkey of the party, as good an archer as the fighters thanks to divine metamagic persistant, and the healer/raise dead-er. Archivist is a nice touch. If you're not worried about the loss of skill points (and evasion), you end up with a substantially better CL, at 18, to my 15 (just missing 9th level spells). Also, I had to use maxxed UMD to get access to things like ranger spells. As for sneak attack damage, you're forgetting the tried-and-true ring of blinking. When you've absolutely, positively, gotta sneak attack every @#$%# in the room, accept no substitute.
nastynate 12-28-06, 10:09 AM	Nice work, Nate. I've been running a more rogue-focused version of this for a few months now and it really is great. You're right that the beauty of this type of build is its flexibility. Instead of archivist, I just went with the more boring cleric/rogue/shadowbane stalker (with Seeker of the Misty Isle thrown in for fun) but I'm still the dedicated trap-springer/skill monkey of the party, as good an archer as the fighters thanks to divine metamagic persistant, and the healer/raise dead-er. Archivist is a nice touch. If you're not worried about the loss of skill points (and evasion), you end up with a substantially better CL, at 18, to my 15 (just missing 9th level spells). Also, I had to use maxxed UMD to get access to things like ranger spells. As for sneak attack damage, you're forgetting the tried-and-true ring of blinking. When you've absolutely, positively, gotta sneak attack every @#$%# in the room, accept no substitute. Ah yes, the wonderful ring of blinking. That is indeed an item worth investing in. I had completely forgotten about it until you brought it up. I wonder how much coin I have left...
frasmage 12-28-06, 07:04 PM	If you want more sneak attack, you may be able to swap one level of archivist for assassin's stance, which grants +2d6 SA. It seems to me your higher archivist levels aren't really doing you much, so a one level dip may be easy
PhaedrusXY 12-28-06, 07:16 PM	It's yours to do with as you will, but given the choice between one and the other, I would go with the Rog3. Especially because, of the spells you wanted as examples, only Gate is actually level 9, and that's a cheap Candle away whenever you need it.9th level spells >> all the sneak attack dice in the world, especially if you're an Archivist, because you can potentially get just about any 9th level spell in the game.
Forged_Fury 12-29-06, 12:28 AM	As for sneak attack damage, you're forgetting the tried-and-true ring of blinking. When you've absolutely, positively, gotta sneak attack every @#$%# in the room, accept no substitute. Not a COer here but... While the flatfooted part is nice, is it worth the 20% miss chance? -Forged_Fury
PhoenixInferno 12-29-06, 12:40 AM	I think, ultimately, if you were totally desperate for SA dice, you would use Nightstalker's Transformation.
skydragonknight 12-29-06, 01:26 AM	Also, I can get polymorph off of the adept spell list, so yes I can use it, but I don't have any way to change into an arrow demon. If I were to make this character an assimar and buy-off the level adjustment, I think I could though. I don't normally use the LA buy-off option though, and polymorph gives me a headache. :) I'll still consider it an option with the build, just not one I want to pursue at the moment. Persistent Shapechange, my friend. Accept no substitute. Your attack form is Arrow Demon and you are the ultimate in utility. There is a thread somewhere that has a list of supernatural and spell-like abilities. It was for assume supernatural ability, but it also applies here. Off the top of my head, Ghaele Eladrin has Cure Light Wounds at will, Blink Dog has Dimension Door 1/rnd as a free action and don't get me started on choker. You keep your HD while shapechanged, so Divine Power is still awesome.
aelryinth 12-29-06, 01:52 AM	9th level spells >> all the sneak attack dice in the world, especially if you're an Archivist, because you can potentially get just about any 9th level spell in the game. he can't get Domain spells if he doesn't blow a feat on the domain. He can get it from other actual spell lists. ===Aelryinth
SageBahamut 12-29-06, 02:02 AM	An interesting question, could he claim domain spells as the divine class spells of the Divine Crusader?
PhaedrusXY 12-29-06, 02:40 AM	he can't get Domain spells if he doesn't blow a feat on the domain. He can get it from other actual spell lists.And where is this spelled out?
nastynate 12-29-06, 08:12 AM	I'm not going to side with either end of the spectrum regarding archivists and domain spells, and luckily that really doesn't matter from the standpoint of this build, given that it relies on spells from the ranger and core cleric spell lists (thankfully). However, even if you don't permit archivists to draw from domain lists, they still have access to the 9th level spells of the druid, spirit shaman, and cleric. There are some really good spells on those lists, and I am reluctant to sacrifice 9th level spells for just about any class feature. I doubt many would disagree with that stance. I have stuck with the assumption that I can't use domain spells, since I like to play things safe. The Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Spirit Shaman, Divine Bard, and Adept spell lists (forgive me if I missed anything else obvious) still offer plenty of good options though...more than enough for me. -Peace- P.S. I am aware of assassin's stance, and had even considered using sword sage and ruby knight vindicator, but nothing I came up actually seemed better than what I have so far. If anyone has ideas about how to make that happen without compromising this feat hungry build, or the potency of 9th level spells, I'm all ears. P.S.S. I just noticed this... ...and don't get me started on choker. Hmmm...this makes me want to consider polymorph. Two greater many shots, or a potent spell and a greater manyshot is tough to beat. Granted arrow demons are pretty darned potent too, but polymorph and chokers are easier to accomplish within the framework I have already. I need to think about this a little more...how nasty do I really want to make this build?
FriendlyFrog 12-29-06, 09:01 AM	Shugenjas also have nice spells.
Pinky's brain 12-29-06, 09:30 AM	If you posit (which I do not) that the reach spell + chain spell combo works then you can do obnoxious things with arrow split. If you have some planar ring gates you can pull tricks with smiting arrow and a plane with flowing time. Splitting arrow + arrow split + imbue arrow is nasty.
PEXE 01-06-07, 03:28 PM	well, i really loke this build and i think im going give it a try....but just 2 questions: whats the reason for the Sacred Exorcist 1 / Shadowbane Stalker 3?? and isnīt the requirement for the feat Craven be a evil alignment? because the requirement for the Sacred Exorcist is any good alignment. thanks
fricot_1 01-06-07, 03:37 PM	Just leave the world of high powered spells behind for this one. Make a character who is proficient with the Composite Longbow. Give him enough BAB to get four attacks. Then give him a "Flaming Shocking Freezing Double Bow of Speed/Splitting". You will easily fire enough arrows to clear 500 Damage. Make him a Dragon Stalker (Draconomicon) and give him 'Leadership' with a follower who is a Sorcerer with a level of Arcane Archer. The tactics go as follows, starting with you hidden using a suprise round. The follower fires one arrow, imbueing some spell from Races of The Dragon to give your enemy the Draconic Subtype (Or, as I now see, my build had no follower and your character doing the spell/imbue using a wand/Use Magic Device). Now your character shoots 24 arrows, all doing +10d6 vs. Creatures with the Dragon subtype. then there is the 24 x3d6 elemental, 24 x1d8 for the bow's damage, and 24 x your strength, and 24 x your dex (CoCL). Hell, give your follower (If your using one) a couple levels of ranger for the PHBII ability to make the enemy flanked after being hit by his arrow. Now your bites alot worse than your bark, you don't need the surprise round for him to be flat footed. Now there is a massive number of ranged attacked in mid combat, followed by a five foot step. I made a much clearer version of this on an older thread, it was something along the lines of crossbowers vs. bows. or something. Edit: at level 20 you have enough gold to permanency the spells from Complete Adventurer that give you the ability to SA undead and SA constucts. Surprise your DM some more when he throws a horde of zombies at you.
Master_of_Dhara 01-06-07, 03:45 PM	+5 Splitting, Collision, Composite Longbow (+8 Strength bonus) What book is Splitting from?
fricot_1 01-06-07, 03:52 PM	Splitting is from Champions of Ruin, Page 42. Here is my archer idea.. Quote// level 4 elf fighter, with 1 level of rogue and a 1 of sorc/wiz, 2 arcane archer, two champion of correllon, and 10 dragonstalker. +1 double bow of speed splitting, have imrpoved rapid shot, and you shoot... +18, +13, +8, +3, +18 (Speed), +18 (improved Rapid Shot), +18 (Double) Now every arrow that came out right there ^^^ is split, creating alot more... +18, +18, +13, +13, +8, +8, +3, +3, +18 (Speed), +18 (Speed that was split), +18 (Imp. Rap. Shot), +18 (Imp. Rap. Shot that was split), +18 (Double), +18 (Double that was split) So, all in all you have +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +13, +13, +8, +8, +3, +3. Thats alot of arrows. need I mention all doing +11d6 Sneak because your enemy now has the dragonblood subtype? //Quote Speed is +3, Splitting is +3, there is a +1 already, now add in Flaming, Shock and Freezing. They all do 1d8 +1d6 Fire +1d6 Cold +1d6 Electricity +11d6 Sneak + Str + Dex.
fricot_1 01-06-07, 04:03 PM	but does my basic build for an archer help at all? i thought it was pretty clever if you catch them in the surprise round, since they have not acted in combat yet they are flat footed, and you have used the deft strike feat (it lets you ignore Armor bonus to AC), its safe to assume you will hit with all your attacks... their AC being around 10. (Assuming a dex of 26 and a str of 18 [you can use a belt of giant str or somehting], even though a level 20 archer could have much higher abilities, this one would be) dealing: 14* 1d8+Str+Dex+11d6+1d6F+1d6C+1d6E So: 14* 1d8 + 14*4 + 14*8 + 14*11d6 + 14*1d6F + 14*1d6C + 14*1d6E Giving: 14d8 (Bow Damage) + 168 (Str and Dex) + 154d6 (Sneak Attack) + 14d6 Fire + 14d6 Cold + 14d6 Electricity On average: 56 (Bow Damage) + 168 (Str and Dex) + 462 (Sneak Attack) + 42 Fire + 42 Cold + 42 Electricity = 812 damage. Min damage = 378 Avg damage = 812 Max damage = 1456
fricot_1 01-06-07, 04:05 PM	The thing is, a character who has not acted in combat is considered flatfooted. And they are flat footed until they do. Sneak Attack damage is applied WHENEVER the enemy is flatfooted, which would be your entire turn. But who cares, with a follower who has the ranger ability from PHBII instead of a animal companion, you dont need a surprise round for the sneak attack, or to turn him into the subtype. just delay your action until after your follower, have him imbue/hit your enemy (now a drogon subtype who is flanked). When it's your turn, unleash the fury I guess.. I hope I helped.
Gildnao 01-06-07, 04:59 PM	where does one find all the material to run this build? specificly the classes and feats and spells and magic enhancements on the bow? im VERY interested in building this character but i have to be able to prove it came from said books.
fricot_1 01-06-07, 05:24 PM	Weapon: Elven Double Bow, Arms and Equipment Guide Weapon Properties: Splitting, Champions of Ruin Speed, DMG Freezing, DMG Shock, DMG Flaming, DMG Feats: Rapid Shot, PHB Precise Shot, PHB Improved Rapid Shot, PHB Deft Strike, Complete Adventurer Quick Reconnoiter, Complete Adventurer Classes: Fighter, PHB Ranger, PHB Sorcerer, PHB Wizards, PHB Champion of Correlon Larethian, Races of the Wild Dragon Stalker, Draconomicon Arcane Archer, DMG Spells: Essence of the Dragon (Level 2 Sor/Wiz), Races of the Dragon Items: Belt of Giant Strength, DMG Boots of Dexterity, DMG *Retributive Amulet, Book of Exalted Deeds *Starmantle Cloack, Book of Exalted Deeds *X of Wrathful Healing, ??? *Arrows of Briliant Energy, DMG *X-Ray Goggles, DMG *Retributive Amulet: Found in the Book of Exalted Deeds, this amulet makes all damage from hand held (meelee) weapons, and natural weapons, cut in half. The attacker also takes 1/4 damage in return. Ex. I hit your character for 100 with my greataxe wielding barbarian. You only take 50 damage, and I take 25 damage. *Starmantle Cloack: It gives some protection from spells, also found in the BoED. I forget the exact stats, so you might have to check it out yourself. *X of Wrathful Healing: I don't know very much about this magical ability, but does it ever come in handy. If it can be put on any item, augment something that will not be targeted very ofter (like a belt). If it can only be put on weapons, it might be worth putting it on your bow and taking off the elemental damage. What it does is, when you deal damage you heal half your damage. Ex. You deal 812 damage to my greataxe wielding barbarian. You heal 406 Hp. It's an easy way to stay at full health. NOTE: Look this up, I don't know the book, or exactly what it does. It may only function for meelee weapons or some other restriction. All im saying is research it, and consider it. *Arrows of Brillant Energy: Costly, but worth it. Don't use them all the time (thats why you have the Deft Strike/Quick Recconoiter combo). But when stuff flees around corners, these babies will fly through non-living non-magical matter. Like a wall. They also ignore armor bonus, an added benifit. *X-Ray Goggles: With the arrows noted above you can shoot through walls, but you can't see through them. This piece of eyewear will let you see through 30ft. of non-magical, non-living? matter. Check them out in the DMG, but just picture sitting in a dungeon crawl shooting every creature in a 30ft. radius through the walls! BEFORE they know you are there. Those are just suggestions, if there is something I missed just post. I'll do my best to find it. EDIT: I forgot these... (Additional) Spells: (Permanencied?) Grave Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Undead (Permanencied?) Golem Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Constructs (Permanencied?) Vine Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Plant Creatures If these ____ Strike spells can't be permanencied, consider making your follower more of a spellcaster than a martial character. Put as many levels into Sorcerer/Wizard, and 2 levels into Arcane Archer (and maybe 4 into Ranger if you want the ability in Players Handbook 2 that makes the enemy hit become flanked). This Character is infinately weaker against Rogues - They cannot be Sneak Attacked. You still however have 14 arrows doing tons of damage (1d8+3d6+Str+Dex) hurling at them, and since they have a low HP picking them off should not be too much of a problem. Especially with the Arrows of Brilliant Energy and X-Ray Goggles making their 'Hit 'n Hide' strategies useless.
JiCi 01-06-07, 06:51 PM	This Character is infinately weaker against Rogues - They cannot be Sneak Attacked. You still however have 24 arrows doing tons of damage (1d8+3d6+Str+Dex) hurling at them, and since they have a low HP picking them off should not be too much of a problem. Especially with the Arrows of Brilliant Energy and X-Ray Goggles making their 'Hit 'n Hide' strategies useless.Hate to burst your bubble, but the elven double bow allows only one additional arrow per round. Nocking two arrows takes a move-equivalent action, so you cannot shoot 2 arrows per attack. Technically, you should take 2 move actions (1 to nock and 1 to move) and then shoot. So your fomula works more like this: +18, +18 (second arrow), +18 (Speed), +18 (improved Rapid Shot), +13, +8, +3 times 2 (from Splitting): +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +13, +13, +8, +8, +3, +3 = 14 arrows Sorry, but rules are rules :weep: What you could do is to use the Extra Limbs (arms) unique trait from DMG II and carry 2 equally-enhanced elven double bows and thus doubling your attacks, making 28 shots. (Hope you brought quivers of Elhonna or quivers of infinite arrows) You could develop a more powerful ability, something like Greater Splitting, that could create 4 more arrows per regular arrow. As a +5 bonus, it would fit nicely.
fricot_1 01-06-07, 08:40 PM	Your right. I shouldn't have jumped the gun on that. Its been edited. Even with ONLY fourteen shots a round, an average of 812 damage is good enough for me. The extra limbs idea has been debated before, using Thri Kreen though (not your Extra Limbs trait), and its generally accepted that the Base Attack will get depleted too much from using Multiattack. Your free to if you want, but ill stick with my elf thank you very much ;) You make the fourteen shots a round sound bad :S
JiCi 01-06-07, 09:20 PM	The extra limbs idea has been debated before, using Thri Kreen though (not your Extra Limbs trait), and its generally accepted that the Base Attack will get depleted too much from using Multiattack. Your free to if you want, but ill stick with my elf thank you very much ;) You make the fourteen shots a round sound bad :SI only proposed that because you were aiming at 24 arrows, and 28 in a round is close enough. Don't worry. 14 arrows, which are technically only 7 arrows, are good enough, but there are still other ways to increase the numbers of arrow shots, if it's what you're looking for: - A greater splitting enhancement (4 more arrows per regular arrow) could give you 35 attacks (7 x 5). - The Time Stands Still maneuver from Tome of Battle effectively doubles your shots, as you are entitled with 2 full-attack actions, whether melee or ranged (warblade with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven double bow) anyone ?). (35 x 2 = 70) - The Extra Limb (arms) unique trait from DMG II is a +1 CR/+2 LA that also grants you Multiweapon Fighting as a bonus feat. Then just combine it with a human. ([35 x 2] x 2 = 140 ! assuming you're holding 2 equally-enhanced bows in each pair of arms) You see ? There is still plenty of ways to get more arrows, and 14 is still a good option, propably the simpliest and easiest to get.
draco1119 01-07-07, 05:21 AM	meh... cleric archer is a general term :D Either way I would like to see how much more damage people can crank out of this build... Easy. Attack from ambush and cast the Ranger spell Hunter's Mercy in the final surprise round. Automatically makes your next hit a critical.
Master_of_Dhara 01-07-07, 02:16 PM	Fricot, your build needs Precise Shot or the splitting enhancement will not work.
fricot_1 01-07-07, 06:50 PM	Right. The Splitting property needs Precise Shot. It's in there. On the "Greater Splitting" front, I really want to avoid creating custom magical abilities for weapons for the sake of the complications involved with RAW/guidelines when creating custom magic items.. as well as keeping out as many "It's up to the DM" comments when someone uses this build. If your DM lets you, drop two elemental +1d6ers and make it 'Greater Splitting'. You will lose 2d6 with each arrow, but shoot twice as many. It would be worth it. The extra limbs will give you more arrows, correct, but the attack bonus will be lower now that you're incorporating Multiweapon Fighting. It's a trade off between fewer attacks at a high bonus, or tons of attacks at a crap bonus. Statisticly you should critical enough times to do some hurt, but everybody has hit a bad streak now and again. Also, the newly developed level adjustment makes it impossible to be able to get all the levels in necessary to cast "Essence of the Dragon" as well as the +11d6 Sneak Attack. You could shoot more arrows, but you can't turn your enemy into the draconic subtype. Or keep the spellcasting levels, and you will end up doing less SA dice. PS: What page is "The Extra Limb (arms) unique trait from DMG II" on? I couldn't find it. For the Tome of Battle rout, it's a level nine maneuver. I don't know how high a level you have to be to use it but think of it this way. If your a level 20 warblade, you get two full attacks - so 28 arrows if your not using extra limbs. But now you don't have 10 levels in Dragonstalker/ 1 level in rogue so you arn't doing 11d6 on each arrow, and you don't add your dex to damage because you have no levels in CoCL. Basically its this: 28 arrows each doing 1d8 + str bonus +1d6 Fire +1d6 Electricity +1d6 Cold or 14 arrows each doing 1d8 + str bonus + dex bonus + 1d6 Electricity +1d6 Cold +1d6 Fire +11d6 Sneak Attack? so in other words... 28d8 (bow damage) + 84d6 (elemental) + 28*str or 14d8 (bow damage) + 42d6 (elemental) + 14*str + 14*dex + 154d6 (sneak attack)? If we add in the new ways to get more arrows we lose the ability to turn our enemys into draconic creatures, or lose the sneak attack dice. Maybe there is a better way to incorporate the two than what I have here. Any suggestions?
Master_of_Dhara 01-07-07, 10:57 PM	Boy, I really need to read more careful. I swear I read your post three times before I posted myself and skipped over Precise Shot every time. Sorry :) Or did you just edit it in?
aelryinth 01-08-07, 12:44 AM	And where is this spelled out? They just covered this precise question on the Class Acts where they reviewed the Archivist. He can only access spells on Divine Class Lists. Domain Spells are on Domain Lists, and are thus inaccessible. It takes a LOT of the broken-ness out of the Archivist, although being able to play level games with spells is still pretty nice (level 5 Adept Heal FTW, people!) ===Aelryinth
aelryinth 01-08-07, 12:48 AM	I think most of the guys using Uber Archer builds with multi arms use Arrow Demons... Note that any Sane DM is probably not going to let SPlitting fly through. Since it straight up doubles your dmg, you'd probably have to rate this at least equal to a Speed Enchantment...except it's even better. So probably a +7 enhancement, maybe even a +9. +3? That's just ridiculous. ===Aelryinth
Seerow 01-08-07, 01:10 AM	Yeah, Arrow Demon is really a must here. It turns your 600 damage into 1200, easily.
NinjaBartender 01-08-07, 03:09 AM	Fricot, one major problem with your build that i've seen, CoCL's Elegant Strike ability doesn't work with Bows or ranged weapons of any kind for that matter. It only works with Longswords, Rapiers, Scimitars, Elven Thinblades, Elven Lightblades, and Elven Courtblades. So taking those 2 levels is wasteful. Same with Swashbuckler as you mentioned, also doesn't work with bows. You'd be far better off from a playability and damage standpoint taking Deepwood Sniper with those 2 levels, gaining both Keen arrows for free and upping your bow's critical multiplier from 3x to 4x, which means even more damage from elemental bursts especially. Ohh, and someone asked earlier about the Craven feat...no, you don't have to be Evil to take it. Just need to not be immune to fear and have SA as a class feature. BTW, on NastyNate's original build of this thread that was focused on SA damage, don't forget to get the Telling Blow feat from PHB2, it will further boost your high end damage potential. Furthermore, i'd say drop Collision from your bow and instead add Deadly Precision from Complete Adventurer, which for the same +2 enhancement bonus will give you an additional +2d6 SA damage. Or you could go with Explosive to really have fun, it's also a +2 enhancement...there are 2 versions though, the one in Complete Warrior and Heroes of Battle. With the one from CW dealing 2d4 to the target and everyone within 5' (damage halved with a Reflex save, DC15), and HoB's dealing 1d6 to target and an additional 1d6 to anyone within 10' (damage negated with a Reflex save, DC14).
JiCi 01-08-07, 08:36 AM	Right. The Splitting property needs Precise Shot. It's in there.Exactly. Even if it wasn't a prerequisite, it's still a good feat to have. :) On the "Greater Splitting" front, I really want to avoid creating custom magical abilities for weapons for the sake of the complications involved with RAW/guidelines when creating custom magic items.. as well as keeping out as many "It's up to the DM" comments when someone uses this build. If your DM lets you, drop two elemental +1d6ers and make it 'Greater Splitting'. You will lose 2d6 with each arrow, but shoot twice as many. It would be worth it.That's debatable, no elemental damage means that you don't have to worry about resistance, immunity or energy healing. Solely piercing weapons mean that you only have to worry about DR. The extra limbs will give you more arrows, correct, but the attack bonus will be lower now that you're incorporating Multiweapon Fighting. It's a trade off between fewer attacks at a high bonus, or tons of attacks at a crap bonus. Statisticly you should critical enough times to do some hurt, but everybody has hit a bad streak now and again. Also, the newly developed level adjustment makes it impossible to be able to get all the levels in necessary to cast "Essence of the Dragon" as well as the +11d6 Sneak Attack. You could shoot more arrows, but you can't turn your enemy into the draconic subtype. Or keep the spellcasting levels, and you will end up doing less SA dice.The thing is that you can do extra damage on your own; if your caster gets killed, you're screwed. PS: What page is "The Extra Limb (arms) unique trait from DMG II" on? I couldn't find it.Page 157 for the CR/LA table, top left colum on page 158 for the description. For the Tome of Battle rout, it's a level nine maneuver. I don't know how high a level you have to be to use it but think of it this way. If your a level 20 warblade, you get two full attacks - so 28 arrows if your not using extra limbs. But now you don't have 10 levels in Dragonstalker/ 1 level in rogue so you arn't doing 11d6 on each arrow, and you don't add your dex to damage because you have no levels in CoCL.You need to be a 17th warblade and must have 4 (or 5) Diamond Mind maneuvers to take this 9th-level maneuver. And elegant strike does not apply to bows, only to certain swords. Basically its this: 28 arrows each doing 1d8 + str bonus +1d6 Fire +1d6 Electricity +1d6 Cold or 14 arrows each doing 1d8 + str bonus + dex bonus + 1d6 Electricity +1d6 Cold +1d6 Fire +11d6 Sneak Attack? so in other words... 28d8 (bow damage) + 84d6 (elemental) + 28*str or 14d8 (bow damage) + 42d6 (elemental) + 14*str + 14*dex + 154d6 (sneak attack)?The main problem with sneak attacks is that you must flank or have your target denied of its Dex modifier to AC. There's also a handful of creatures immune to sneak attacks. Without it, you can deal lots of damage without having to move around your foe to sneak it. If we add in the new ways to get more arrows we lose the ability to turn our enemys into draconic creatures, or lose the sneak attack dice. Maybe there is a better way to incorporate the two than what I have here. Any suggestions?Gimme a few minutes and I'll get back to you.
fricot_1 01-08-07, 05:18 PM	Your right - Elegant Strike is out. I wasn't sure about the Swashbuckler ability (I think I wrote that somewhere?) but I was convinced the CoCL added it to bows. Thats my bad. Now I've got... Elf Rogue 1/ Fighter 4/ 3 Wizard/ 2 Arcane Archer/ 10 Dragonstalker HP: 6 + 4d10 + 3d4 + 2d8 + 10d8 + 20*Con Modifier Giving.. BAB: +17 (+4 Ftr, +1 Wiz, +2 AA, +10 Drgnstlkr) Base Fort: +12 (+4 Ftr, +1 Wiz, +3 AA, +4 Drgnstlkr) Base Reflex: +14 (+2 Rog, +1 Ftr, +1 Wiz, +3 AA, +7 Drgnstlkr) Base Will: +11 (+1 Ftr, +3 Wiz, +7 Drgnstlkr) Abilities: Sneak Attack +1d6 Trapfinding Fighter Bonus Feat (x3) Summon Familiar Scribe Scroll Level 2 Spells Enhance Arrow (+1) Imbue Arrow Hunting Bonus Sneak Attack (Dragon) +10d6 Ignore Natural Armor 2/Day Hide Scent Foil Blindsense Dragonstrike Feats (2 left): Point Blank Shot, PHB Far Shot, PHB Rapid Shot, PHB Precise Shot, PHB Improved Rapid Shot, PHB Improved Rapid Shot, PHB Deft Strike, Complete Adventurer Quick Reconnoiter, Complete Adventurer Weapon (with appropriate book notation): +1 Freezing (DMG) Flaming (DMG) Splitting (Champions of Ruin) Elven Double Bow (Arms and Equipment Guide) of Shocking (DMG) Speed (DMG) Other Important Items (with appropriate book notation): Belt of Giant Strength (DMG) Boots of Dexterity (DMG) Retributive Amulet (Book of Exalted Deeds) Starmantle Cloack (Book of Exalted Deeds) X of Wrathful Healing, ??? Arrows of Briliant Energy (DMG) X-Ray Goggles (DMG) Spells Needed: Essence of the Dragon (Level 2/ Races of the Dragon) (Permanencied) Grave Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Undead (Permanencied) Golem Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Constructs (Permanencied) Vine Strike, Complete Adventurer - Sneak Attack Plant Creatures
fricot_1 01-08-07, 05:23 PM	Now this build would be nice and dandy, but after reading through the classes to find their saves I realized something. The "Imbue Arrow" ability from Arcane Archer does not let you imbue spells without a radius, like Essence of the Dragon. The fact that I realize this now is somewhat depressing.. Lol. Oh well - it was a neat idea though. Turning your enemy into a draconic creature, which seemingly increases their power, but being a character who is built wholely around destroying draconinc creatures you gain the upper hand. Oh well. Back to square one. Or.. take the leadership feat and use a kamakazi spellcaster who is willing to run close enough to your enemy to touch him as a follower? Now that I read that - Back to square one. We can still use the bow though, since we've calculated all these darn attacks - as well as the Craven? feat. on another character... I want to still try and create this archer though. BTW: Whats "Arrow Demon"?
JiCi 01-08-07, 06:02 PM	BTW: Whats "Arrow Demon"?A new demon creature in the MMIII. This four-armed outsider has a limited powerful build ability that only applies to bows. Anyway, what's the attack routine break down ? How many arrows can be shot and how much damage can you deal ? Here is my Greater Splitting enhancement: Greater Splitting: Effect: As the splitting enhancement, except each arrow is split into 5 identical projectiles. The arrows share the nonsplitting properties, and all arrows hit the same target. Each arrow requires a separate attack roll; however, each arrow after the original suffers a cumulative +2 to attack rolls. For example, the second split arrow suffers a -2 to attack rolls, the third arrow -4, the fourth arrow -6 and the fifth arrow -8. Aura/Caster level Moderate conjuration (creation), CL 9th Construction Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Precise Shot, Maximize Spell, arrowsplit, +25,000 gp, +2,000 xp, 50 days Weight -- Price +5 bonus Enjoy !
NinjaBartender 01-08-07, 10:57 PM	Now this build would be nice and dandy, but after reading through the classes to find their saves I realized something. The "Imbue Arrow" ability from Arcane Archer does not let you imbue spells without a radius, like Essence of the Dragon. The fact that I realize this now is somewhat depressing.. Lol. Oh well - it was a neat idea though. Turning your enemy into a draconic creature, which seemingly increases their power, but being a character who is built wholely around destroying draconinc creatures you gain the upper hand. Oh well. Back to square one. Or.. take the leadership feat and use a kamakazi spellcaster who is willing to run close enough to your enemy to touch him as a follower? Now that I read that - Back to square one. We can still use the bow though, since we've calculated all these darn attacks - as well as the Craven? feat. on another character... I want to still try and create this archer though. BTW: Whats "Arrow Demon"? It's a touch spell, simply use Spectral Hand to deliever it at range before you start your opening barrage. It's range is equal to, or better than the range of your bow in most cases anyways...so you would have no problem with it. And since you won't be Imbuing anything, you can ditch AA and focus more on the outright task at hand for the build. I think i'd switch things up to this: Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Dragonstalker 10 Since you need Track and Blind-Fight as a prereq for Dragonstalker, it makes sense to go Ranger, as then you get Rapid Shot and Manyshot for free anyways...along with a +6 damage bonus from having Dragons as your 1st Favored Enemy, with 2 boosts along the way. As for your bow, i would definetely suggest having Dragon Bane on it, as it stacks perfectly with the Dragonstrike ability from 10th level Dragonstalker. Which means with them both you'll have a +5 overall enhanced bow vs. Dragons, along with a +4d6 damage, all for a meager +1 enhancement. Though even better is the Fiercebane enhancement from DMG2, which has it's own "burst" type of ability built in to Bane, all for a +2 enhancement. To make things even easier, just pick up the Bow of Mighty Dragon Hunter also from the Draconomicon, but alter it as such: +1 Dragon Fiercebane, Splitting, Acidic Burst, and Shocking Burst Mighty Composite Longbow That way not only are you dealing massive amounts of damage (the Fiercebane and Burst's will have a +4d10 on any crit thanks to the improved x5 multiplier of the bow), but you'll also be dealing 1pt of STR damage with each hit. So even if your target has some sort of DR or Fast Healing, you can potentially drop them in no time with only a couple shots anyways. Making it like shooting fish in a barrel. Then you just pick up Bracers of the Blinding Strike from FR: Magic of Faerun to gain your extra attack per round as if the bow was a Speed weapon. It's easier to do that way, plus gives more damage. You can even use the pricebreak rules for item creation to roll the Bracers of the Blinding Strike together with Greater Bracers of Archery for a touch more damage. Plus you gain the Improved Initiative feat for free while wearing them. Hope that gives you some better ideas on how to break things a bit more.
JiCi 01-09-07, 05:03 PM	What I don't like about this build is that you must flank a dragon-type creature to get maximum damage. Getting a good amount of damage should at least apply to most creature types, don't you think ? It's a good build if dragons are frequent is your game, but it's a waste if no such creature exist. Don't get me wrong: your ideas are really good and impressive. I'm just saying that we should look for non-sneaking builds in order to satisfy the lust for power buried inside normal archers. I'll try to make a build using a warblade and the Time Stands Still maneuver.