Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gavinfoxx 10-23-05, 10:29 PM	Hi, I have a 7th level archer-bard in a game with Ancestral Relic on my bow.. It seems that if I want to do the really good bow combo, there is an interesting combo with the spells True Strike (to make you more likely to hit), Hunter's Mercy (make your next shot that hits automatically threaten a critical), and Bless Weapon (make your next critical threaten automatically actually critical against an evil creature). Now, my party has neither a Ranger nor a Paladin... but I do have access to buy wands, and I might be able to get the DM to do some custom house-ruled stuff in my favor towards getting these abilities in some form. Now, as it exists, is there any hope of me getting access to some of these spells using standard 3.5, most any WotC books allowed? If I try and ask the DM for some houserule allowance.. what is a fairly balanced way to present the combo that is more likely to get me this in some fashion? And.... what stuff do I need to add to this post to get the most effective help, cause I'm sure I left something important out...
Tempest Stormwind 10-23-05, 10:51 PM	Well-known, and well-documented. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604) Bless Weapon can be gained from an oil, Hunter's Mercy from a potion, or all three spells can be achieved with Extra Spell (Complete Arcane). With them on your spells-known list, you can now use a wand with them on it. Note your spell targets, too.
Aramas 10-24-05, 12:38 AM	You don't need True Strike Re-read Hunter's Mercy.
jedrious 10-24-05, 01:07 AM	You don't need True Strike Re-read Hunter's Mercy. he really really wats that confirmation roll to hit
HraTaika 10-24-05, 10:07 AM	Hunter´s Mercy gives you a Natural 20, which always hits.
Aramas 10-24-05, 11:40 AM	he really really wats that confirmation roll to hit Actually, he was misinterpreting the spell, because he included bless weapon in his original post which automatically confirms criticals against evil targets. To the OP: Check the BoED for a weapon special ability called Blessed. It's a +1 enhancement that duplicates the effects of bless weapon.
Blas de Lezo 10-24-05, 11:59 AM	Where's Hunter's Mercy from?
jedrious 10-24-05, 12:57 PM	Where's Hunter's Mercy from? the autohit version was in magic of faerun, the updated one that does not autohit is in ghostwalk
Gavinfoxx 10-24-05, 07:22 PM	I would feel that the updated, non autohit version is more likely to be allowed by my game master. And its more balanced... and I have BoED, and i got stuff from it, but we both decided to tone down some of the stuff from it, seeing as how it doesnt have the same balance curve as some of the other stuff... But I'll consider that Blessed... sounds interesting... no, wait, sounds really powerful.. hmm.... Okay.. so I can make the bow Blessed, and get lots of potions of Hunter's mercy to place on the arrows one at a time (or potion? you drink those, right? how does this spell work again?), and just cast True Strike normally... Extra Spell will let me get a spell from the *ranger's* list? I dont have Complete Arcane. How does this work? I dont really have access to Greater Magic Weapon for casting on my arrows either... what would be the simplest way to do that? And what would be the argument that lets Blessed and Hunter's Mercy work together?
jedrious 10-24-05, 07:40 PM	also reread Bless Weapon, it speciically states that projetile weapons d not bestow this ability on their ammunition and te Blessed property does not override this, so you'd have to enchant your ammo with blessed instead of your bow, which gets expensive after awhile
Nazzareth 10-24-05, 07:45 PM	Extra Spell will let me get a spell from the *ranger's* list? I dont have Complete Arcane. How does this work? No it doesn't. It all depends on how you want to read the text in the feats description and warp it.
Tempest Stormwind 10-24-05, 08:20 PM	No it doesn't. It all depends on how you want to read the text in the feats description and warp it. There's nothing in that feat that restricts it to your list, or even your same class of spells (arcane, divine). It simply says "one additional spell." It even says that wizards can use it for those they are unable to research. This means one of exactly two things. 1) Arcane spells from a forbidden school (which they can't cast anyway) or from another arcane spellcaster's list (like, say, Wu Jen). 2) Divine spells. Draw your own conclusions, but it seems to work. For Gavinfoxx: See Expanded Knowledge in the psionics section of the SRD. It works exactly the same way (even the prerequisite, although that's a caster level one), except for spells, not powers, and it lacks any distinction between arcane, divine, or list in general.
Debug0x2a 10-24-05, 09:06 PM	I still personally belive that the distinction between Arcane and Divine is exactly the same as Arcane and Psionic...
Tempest Stormwind 10-24-05, 09:48 PM	I still personally belive that the distinction between Arcane and Divine is exactly the same as Arcane and Psionic... And yet that is entirely unsupported by the rules. Spellcraft/Psicraft, Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device, any Metamagic or Item Creation feat... hell, even counterspells (a wizard can counter a cleric's Summon Monster)! Sure looks distinct, doesn't it? Now, do I support splitting Arcane and Divine? Yes. Either that or a complete integration, but I'd support splitting first. Whenever I DM, my houserules are either one or the other of the above, depending on how the players feel (transparency is always fully in place between all three). However, is that the case with the current rules? No. Arcane and divine are one, psionics is not. Conclusion: We have no RAW basis to conclude that Extra Spell denies wizards Cure Light Wounds, clerics Magic Missile, or bards Hunter's Mercy.
R2Keen2 10-24-05, 10:38 PM	Characters with spellcasting in their abilitly list may use wands of spells on their list even if they are not yet able to cast it. While a level 1 Ranger has no spells per day, if a wand of Cure Serious wounds fell into his hands get could use it. Bless Weapon is an Autocrit.. you must still roll to meet your weapons crit range (19-20 for a Crossbow.. etc), and as an added note the book says that weapons with additional crit effects do not work. So no affect on a vorpal or keen weapons. If Hunter's Mercy is an auto threaten than its use with true strike is great, and since its a ranger spell you could use a wand of hunter's mercy without a UMD check. A Ranger nor bard aquire the True Strike spell in the course of their spellcasting so using the wand would require a UMD check. Also Bless Weapon is a Paladin only spell so you'd require a wand and check for that too. Also theres an item from Dragon Magazine you might be interested in if you insist on this path... Gnomish Bracers of something (It was believed to be in #291), It was a set of Bracers with room on each to hold a wand or two and thus they would always be treated as if you were wielding them. I think they held 3-4 wands so you could have your True Strike, Hunter's Mercy and two others ready. A Wand of Bless Weapon and Hunter's Mercy is a strong combo but your enemy must be evil to work. Hunter's Mercy and True Strike however is a bit more dependible and less limited. Personally I'd go for these wands Cure Critical Wounds(Bard), True Strike, Hunter's Mercy(Ranger) and maybe a wand of greater invisiblity.. It still takes the time to activate each one but you don't have to waste time pulling them out and putting them away.
Nazzareth 10-24-05, 10:49 PM	Conclusion: We have no RAW basis to conclude that Extra Spell denies wizards Cure Light Wounds, clerics Magic Missile, or bards Hunter's Mercy. There also is no RAW basis to conclude that Extra spell that allows spells out the caster's class list. You are using one of those it doesn't say I can't arguements. But I think we should agree to disagree and not highjack this thread.
Tempest Stormwind 10-24-05, 11:02 PM	There also is no RAW basis to conclude that Extra spell that allows spells out the caster's class list. You are using one of those it doesn't say I can't arguements. But I think we should agree to disagree and not highjack this thread. On a tangent note: Not really. It says an additional SPELL. It even says one that a wizard could not normally research. Which tells us something about the spells, since wizards can already research arcane spells that aren't on the wizard spell list. The fact that they don't call divine spells "miracles" or arcane spells "dwoemers" or related things shows that, once again, they are equivalent here. And as to those bracers: There's a non-dragon equivalent if you play a warforged, in the Wand Sheath bracer component. They even have a repeating crossbow without a maximum magazine size (armbow component) that can be dual-weilded.
Nazzareth 10-24-05, 11:13 PM	A bow of true arrows might be an answer if you go for a non-arcane caster. UMD skill and wands (wand sheaths) plus the bow of true arrows might solve some of the problems.
Gavinfoxx 10-25-05, 03:11 PM	Okay. So if I get my UMD really high, a wand of Bless Weapon can Bless individual Arrows, or the oil could do the same thing. My charisma is really high, so getting UMD up there isnt going to be a problem, i think it already is up there... And my DM will have to rule whether Bless Weapon and Hunters Mercy work together. If I had to choose between Bless Weapon/True Strike and Hunters Mercy/True Strike, I would choose Hunters Mercy... and try and go for the Greater Magic Weapon/Hunters Mercy/True Strike combo. Or, I could just buy a few +whatever Blessed arrows... And I could use potions of hunter's mercy, or use UMD and get a wand of that. And I could use UMD with a wand of Greater Magic Weapon, yes? So I end up with a wand of greater magic weapon for use with UMD, a wand of hunters mercy for use with UMD, just cast true strike normally, and a wand of Bless Weapon for use with UMD. Damn, thats gonna get expensive..
ksbsnowowl 10-25-05, 04:13 PM	And my DM will have to rule whether Bless Weapon and Hunters Mercy work together.Why would he have to make a special ruling on it? Are you refering to the "weapon may have no other crit effects" line of Bless Weapon? If so, note that the target of Hunter's Mercy is neither the arrow nor the bow. It is a personal range spell with a target of "you". Ergo, it and Bless Weapon do work together. And I could use potions of hunter's mercy, or use UMD and get a wand of that.By RAW you cannot make potions of personal range spells, such as True Strike and Hunter's Mercy. And as another noted, a mere one-level dip into ranger would grant you the ability to use wands of ranger spells.
R2Keen2 10-25-05, 05:15 PM	You could get a bow of true arrows for 4,000gp.. +1 Mighty Composite Longbow, which you can active true strike from as if it was a wand (without the UMD Check?). The true strike will only effect the arrow fired from the bow. (This is a decent option if indeed it doesn't require a UMD check... which if you have the crafter teach you how to active the spell i think thats good enough) SnowOwl is right, Bless/Hunter's Mercy is an automatic critical against evil characters, where as True Strike/Hunter's Mercy is almost always a crit verses anything subject to crits. If I confused you i was just saying that Bless/True Strike is not an AutoCrit/AutoThreat. I guess i'll restate the wand rules again.. If you have a wand and even 1 level in a class that could cast it eventually, you can use the wand without a UMD check even if your too low to cast the spell. ex: 1st Level Wizard with a Wand of Fireball could use it without making a UMD check..
Gavinfoxx 10-25-05, 08:13 PM	Alright, this is a social game, so my character is a high charisma star elf -- cha 20, int 18, dex 16, str 12 (well, 12 by next level). i'm going for bard 20, and he is not proficient with lonbgows (star elves arent). And his bow is his ANCESTRAL RELIC. So it is the bow he wants to keep on using for the rest of the game. It is, so far, a +1 Composite Darkwood Short Bow with a +1 strength mod. Items that increase stats are difficult to find in this game... I read the updated version of hunter's mercy in Ghostwalk, and it does not do an autohit... and it only lasts one round. Now how do I cast or invoke or do both true strike and hunter's mercy in the same round? Also... generally, to use a scroll of the non-bard spells (bless weapon, hunter's mercy, greater magic weapon), what would my DC for the UMD check generally be? If I do some things right, my bonus to UMD could be, by next level... +16 total. Oh, and in this game, Extra Spell wont give me access to Paladin, Wizard, or Ranger spells...
Gavinfoxx 10-25-05, 09:42 PM	bump!
R2Keen2 10-25-05, 09:49 PM	Oh i see.. you've never taken a level of ranger.. archer is the ideal to build on. You'll never be able to active more than one wand per round because its a standard action. The duration of true strike is untill your next attack roll, at which point it is consumed(this is the very reason you can't create a continuous true strike item). So obviously you activate True Strike, move action(probably putting the wand away if you don't have bracers), activate other wand, move action(pocket other wand) and at the begining of round 3 you can make a standard attack or full attack, of which your first arrow will have the benefit of both spells. The only way around that situation would be a swift scroll (not sure if other items can be quickened in the same manor).. but thats a costly option. Also the DC for activating a wand is always 20 before whatever modifies your DM throws in.. reguardless of what it casts. Honestly extra spell never would from the view point of most players...
X-Codes 10-25-05, 09:52 PM	Instead of using Bless Weapon why not use Exacting Shot and then take levels in either Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharash? A Celestial Bard 8/Harper Paragon 10 using a Bow of Songs with Hunter's Mercy and Exacting Shot can be quite the vicious hunter of evil. In all honesty, you don't need any feats to be a decent archer so long as you have a +1 precise bow (which costs a simple 8k, available to most schmoes near level 8). EDIT: Don't bump until 24 hours go by. It's rude and... dang whats the word...
ksbsnowowl 10-25-05, 10:22 PM	The duration of true strike is untill your next attack roll, at which point it is consumed(this is the very reason you can't create a continuous true strike item).Actually, the duration of True Strike is 1 round... it just happens to also end once you make your attack. Gavinfoxx - the easiest answer to your problem is to just get a wand of Extended True Strike. TS now lasts two rounds, and in round 2 you cast HM, round 3 you attack.
Gavinfoxx 10-26-05, 12:45 AM	*thinks for a bit* okay... Lets say next level I manage to upgrade my bow to a bow of songs... with the only difference being that it is made out of Darkwood, it's composite, and it has a pull of +1 str. Anyway. I'm 8th level... My to hit is +6 bab on the all-important first shot, +3 from dex, +2 from the bow, +1 from masterwork arrows. Then, it's +4 from bardsong (base: 2, +1 from song of the heart, +1 from inspirational boost), then its +5 from the bow of songs ability (ahhh, Star Elf with a 20 CHA...) so that's +21 to hit, which autothreatens, and thats my modifier before rolling to see if the critical hit confirms, from the bard's abilities alone... Anyway, I dont need to take a level of Ranger to quaff Hunter's Mercy potions in one round and have them work on me, right? That spell can be turned into a potion, right? So, combat... lets go "one uber combat a day" as is the DM's pattern of combat.. R1: Cast Inspirational Boost (2/3 first level spells left) R2: Sing a Lingering version of Inspire Courage for +4 (7/8 bardic music left) R3: Use bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (6/8 bardic music left) (10/10 rounds of Courage left) R4: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (9/10 Cour) R5: Fire an autothreat shot at +21 to hit for 1d6 +12 damage, probably x3, and a negligable second shot (8/10 cour) R6: Use bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (5/8 bardic music left) (7/10 Courage left) R7: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (6/10 Courage) R8: Fire another uber shot (5/10 Courage) R9: Use Bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (4/8 Bardic Music left) (4/10 courage left) R10: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (3/10 Courage left) R11: Fire another uber shot (2/10 Courage) R12: get out my masterwork horn (1/10 courage) R13: cast Inspirational Boost (1/3 first level spells left) (no inspire courage active) R14: give everyone a +5 to hit and damage for the rest of the combat by playing my horn (3/8 bardic music left) Yay! If I do this, I will finally be able to keep up with the DAMN PSION at burning through my abilities to inflict massive damage on really big things! It only takes a bunch of money that I DONT HAVE... woohoo...
Lorimo the Disbeliever 10-26-05, 01:59 AM	That spell can be turned into a potion, right? No.
jedrious 10-26-05, 02:30 AM	*thinks for a bit* okay... Lets say next level I manage to upgrade my bow to a bow of songs... with the only difference being that it is made out of Darkwood, it's composite, and it has a pull of +1 str. Anyway. I'm 8th level... My to hit is +6 bab on the all-important first shot, +3 from dex, +2 from the bow, +1 from masterwork arrows. Then, it's +4 from bardsong (base: 2, +1 from song of the heart, +1 from inspirational boost), then its +5 from the bow of songs ability (ahhh, Star Elf with a 20 CHA...) so that's +21 to hit, which autothreatens, and thats my modifier before rolling to see if the critical hit confirms, from the bard's abilities alone... Anyway, I dont need to take a level of Ranger to quaff Hunter's Mercy potions in one round and have them work on me, right? That spell can be turned into a potion, right? So, combat... lets go "one uber combat a day" as is the DM's pattern of combat.. R1: Cast Inspirational Boost (2/3 first level spells left) R2: Sing a Lingering version of Inspire Courage for +4 (7/8 bardic music left) R3: Use bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (6/8 bardic music left) (10/10 rounds of Courage left) R4: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (9/10 Cour) R5: Fire an autothreat shot at +21 to hit for 1d6 +12 damage, probably x3, and a negligable second shot (8/10 cour) R6: Use bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (5/8 bardic music left) (7/10 Courage left) R7: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (6/10 Courage) R8: Fire another uber shot (5/10 Courage) R9: Use Bardic music to enable Bow of Songs (4/8 Bardic Music left) (4/10 courage left) R10: Quaff a potion of Hunter's Mercy (3/10 Courage left) R11: Fire another uber shot (2/10 Courage) R12: get out my masterwork horn (1/10 courage) R13: cast Inspirational Boost (1/3 first level spells left) (no inspire courage active) R14: give everyone a +5 to hit and damage for the rest of the combat by playing my horn (3/8 bardic music left) Yay! If I do this, I will finally be able to keep up with the DAMN PSION at burning through my abilities to inflict massive damage on really big things! It only takes a bunch of money that I DONT HAVE... woohoo...I'd slap a player that bragged about dealing a maximum of 162 points of damage over a period of 14 rounds, that's less hat a 12 point per round maximum, and I think Psions would be insulted by comparing it to their Novas
Gavinfoxx 10-26-05, 02:44 AM	*sighs* back to the drawing board... :( :( I guess I wasnt doing the math right. But thats better than the damage im doing right now -- none... as I mostly am playing in the background with the masterwork trumpet to get the +4 to hit and damage... I just want to feel like I'm doing more than just stand there and play.
R2Keen2 10-26-05, 07:47 AM	Actually, the duration of True Strike is 1 round... it just happens to also end once you make your attack. Gavinfoxx - the easiest answer to your problem is to just get a wand of Extended True Strike. TS now lasts two rounds, and in round 2 you cast HM, round 3 you attack. Ack.. your right, i didn't read between the ()'s A Bards strength lies in his bluff/diplomacy. You can aid in combat but you'll never be a really strong offencive archer. Or atleast not with such a highly bardic... bard.
Gavinfoxx 10-26-05, 03:15 PM	Yea, I'm slowly working out the whole bluff/diplomacy angle... the problem is, we have a whole bunch of diplomacy characters in this game, so I cant really shine there unless I figure out how to do some better roleplaying..