Archivist or Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archivist or Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenken
04-14-06, 11:10 AM NOTE: I can't seem to post a msg with a lot of words, so I have to break this up into several posts. I'm not sure why :(

Which build is better:
Archivist 20, which allows me to cast basically any divine spells, including: Quillblast, Fire Seeds, Divine Power, Persistant Divine Favor, Lion's Charge, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Summon Nature's ally

Possible feats for the Archivist includes:Greenbound Summoning, Power Attack, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper

or

Wizard8/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 (or even Fighter1/Wizard7/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10), which allows me to cast wizard and cleric spells, and by default have MUCH more spells per day, including: Persistant Divine Power, Persistant Divine Favor, Persistant Sign, Persistant Wraithstrike, Persistant Expeditious Retreat, Extended Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, False Life, Magic Vestment

Possible feats for the Ur-Priest includes: Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Practiced Spellcaster
Tenken
04-14-06, 11:15 AM CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST:

The character's preference is to fight in melee, unless he's going up against some major brute. He'll use Antimagic Field + Extraordinary Spell Aim against some creatures, or if it's the Ur-Priest build, he'll use an array of the Ray attacks as well. The Ur-Priest has less hit points, but makes up for it a little bit with the persistent spells that he can cast that gives him temporary hit points I think.

What do you guys think?
Zemyla
04-14-06, 12:32 PM Go Archivist 19/Sacred Exorcist 1, going into Sacred Exorcist as soon as possible (8th level, I believe). This gives you turn undead for persistent divine metamagic.

Also, your ur-priest build isn't legal. You have to go Wizard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10.
Kirby179
04-14-06, 01:53 PM don't forget to snag mindsight if you go mindbender (under grell entry in Lords of Madness)
karthos
04-14-06, 02:17 PM Also, your ur-priest build isn't legal. You have to go Wizard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10

Actually couldn't he go Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/MT 10/something else 2?
Tenken
04-14-06, 07:40 PM I could be wrong, but Ur-Priest requirements are pretty easy to meet, I'm not seeing what's causing the problem? If it's one of the skills that's required, I'm sure the Educated feat will take care of it.

Also, Divine Metamagic isn't that big of a deal. I mean, I'm not seeing it as a deal breaker, since I don't plan on loading up on Nightsticks regardless, but it's great to know :)

I'm just wondering if the arcane spells (in addition to cleric spells) would be better when compared to the druid/ranger/other divine spells (in addition to cleric spells). The first option is the ur-priest/mt build, and the second option is the Archivist build.
Seeker of Truth
04-14-06, 07:48 PM I don't own the book, but from my reading of these boards I've gathered that ur-priest requires a certain base fortitude save, thuse the mind-bender splashing.
Tenken
04-14-06, 07:52 PM Ahhhh, yeah, it does. I totally missed that, that's why I mentioned putting Fighter1 in parentheses up there. I guess I should've just listed my original idea, hehe. So yeah, Fighter1/Wizard7/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 or Archivist20?

Again, essentially it boils down to this: wiz + clr spells, or, a build that can use any divine spells?

I'm worried that the wiz/clr build won't be able to dish out nearly as much damage as the divine build, even if it gets Arcane Strike.
Tenken
04-15-06, 01:28 AM don't forget to snag mindsight if you go mindbender (under grell entry in Lords of Madness)

Wow, that's a really cool and flavorful feat. Gotta ask my DM about that one if I go the arcane route.
Tenken
04-17-06, 12:57 PM Anyone?
RuneLordAsmodeus
04-17-06, 01:27 PM Why not be a dwarf for and for one of those two unallocated levels take RuneSmith. This gives you access to cast wizards spells in full platemail. I currently am playing a Fighter 1/Wizard 4/RuneSmith 1/Ur-priest 2/MT10.
Ur-priest has harse prequestisits. Fort +3!!! so need fighter, Will +3, Plus some skills that are not normally on your class list do need educated. Plus RuneSmith requires Heavy Armour profiency so which fighter gives you for free plus it allows you to make the Fort +3 preq. Also need a max Int to handle all the craft + Ur priest skills. Only made the requirements by 2 skills points at each prestige class divide..fhew...
I recommend taking Practised Spellcaster Wiz becasue Ur-priest takes 1/2 your wiz caster levels and adds it to Ur-priest caster lvl. I have already megged this one out myself... Whe it comes to feats.. the divine metamagic blag is good... plus take sudden maximize and empower for wiz spells.

Plus if you wannu go super gross for your levels after MT take two levels of Tainted Scholar from Heros of Horror. get yourself 65 taints and have a spellcasting Intelligence and Wisdom score for both class of 75!!!! Outgoing DC base of 42 + spell lvl. hehehehe.
DeimoZz
04-17-06, 01:58 PM If you want to build a melee theuge, how about this build?

Wizard 3/ Archivist 3/ Theuge 10/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ "X" 3

As a race pick ?Necropolitan? (the zero level adjustment undead race) and if you can convince your DM let yourself be created on Desecrated site by someone with some undead craft feats. Combine this with the feat that let's you add your Int bonus to HP instead of Con from one of the Dragon Magazines (?Faerie Mysteries Initiate?)
You'll have more Hp then any fighter would ever have and absolutely no MaD problems :)
Tenken
04-17-06, 05:41 PM I was hoping to get 9th level in both ur-priest and wiz, so Enlightened Fist wouldn't work. I'm also inclined to go with human, but I'll definitely look into dwarf. I'm not familiar with the Runesmith class, but if it's only good for casting while armored, I'll be skipping it, as this character would be more of a stealth based melee combatant, and not a tank that can take massive hits.

From the responses, it seems like people think the ur-priest/mt build is better than the Archivist build?
Rhaynin
04-17-06, 06:10 PM Personally, I really think its depends on your campaign/dm. If he's allowing you access to all these divine spells (via scrolls or whatnot) then go ahead and take the archivist. If not, I would stick with the Ur-Theurge build.
Tenken
04-17-06, 08:55 PM He'll definitely allow access to all divine spells. But what makes you think the Archivist build is better? That's what I'm trying to find out, why one build might be better than the other.
Thaumaturgist
04-18-06, 05:59 AM I do have a question regarding the ur-priest/mystic theurge thingie. And I don't know if it has been discussed before.

What does Ur-priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 equal?

A lvl 12 Ur-priest in terms of spellcasting ability and caster lvl?
Or just a heightened casterlevel?
Rhaynin
04-18-06, 06:46 AM @Tenken

Archivist definitly offers a lot. You have more hp on average, better skills, better armor class, less mad, and the possibility to get important arcane spells from scrolls. Two good saves don't hurt either.

Compare that to the Ur-Theurge, who, while getting a lot more spells per day is also more fragile (no armor, unless you take a 1 level monk dip for wis to ac) You do get the chance to take divine metamagic: persistant spell though, for all those nice 24 hour buffs like divine power and divine favor. These will turn you a formidable melee combatant, even though you will still lack the hp to take hits.

If I would get the chance to start at higher levels I would play the Ur-Theurge.
At lower and mid levels, the Archivist has more potential will be more survivable imho.
Tenken
04-18-06, 08:40 AM I didn't realize that an Archivist could learn arcane spells...? From what I read, they're able to learn only divine spells. Did I miss something?

Thaumaturgist:
A Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 is just the same a Ur-Priest 10. You can't advance it beyond 10 until you're epic, so taking those last 2 levels of Theurge will only advance your other caster class.
Rhaynin
04-18-06, 09:17 AM Yes, they can learn any divine spell. Take a look at the adept spell list in the dmg. You can find some interesting divine spells like Scorching Ray, Invisibility, etc. There are many more classes that offer arcane spells on divine spell lists. Take your time and go shopping! ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 04-14-06, 11:10 AM	NOTE: I can't seem to post a msg with a lot of words, so I have to break this up into several posts. I'm not sure why :( Which build is better: Archivist 20, which allows me to cast basically any divine spells, including: Quillblast, Fire Seeds, Divine Power, Persistant Divine Favor, Lion's Charge, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Summon Nature's ally Possible feats for the Archivist includes:Greenbound Summoning, Power Attack, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper or Wizard8/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 (or even Fighter1/Wizard7/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10), which allows me to cast wizard and cleric spells, and by default have MUCH more spells per day, including: Persistant Divine Power, Persistant Divine Favor, Persistant Sign, Persistant Wraithstrike, Persistant Expeditious Retreat, Extended Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, False Life, Magic Vestment Possible feats for the Ur-Priest includes: Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Practiced Spellcaster
Tenken 04-14-06, 11:15 AM	CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST: The character's preference is to fight in melee, unless he's going up against some major brute. He'll use Antimagic Field + Extraordinary Spell Aim against some creatures, or if it's the Ur-Priest build, he'll use an array of the Ray attacks as well. The Ur-Priest has less hit points, but makes up for it a little bit with the persistent spells that he can cast that gives him temporary hit points I think. What do you guys think?
Zemyla 04-14-06, 12:32 PM	Go Archivist 19/Sacred Exorcist 1, going into Sacred Exorcist as soon as possible (8th level, I believe). This gives you turn undead for persistent divine metamagic. Also, your ur-priest build isn't legal. You have to go Wizard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10.
Kirby179 04-14-06, 01:53 PM	don't forget to snag mindsight if you go mindbender (under grell entry in Lords of Madness)
karthos 04-14-06, 02:17 PM	Also, your ur-priest build isn't legal. You have to go Wizard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 Actually couldn't he go Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/MT 10/something else 2?
Tenken 04-14-06, 07:40 PM	I could be wrong, but Ur-Priest requirements are pretty easy to meet, I'm not seeing what's causing the problem? If it's one of the skills that's required, I'm sure the Educated feat will take care of it. Also, Divine Metamagic isn't that big of a deal. I mean, I'm not seeing it as a deal breaker, since I don't plan on loading up on Nightsticks regardless, but it's great to know :) I'm just wondering if the arcane spells (in addition to cleric spells) would be better when compared to the druid/ranger/other divine spells (in addition to cleric spells). The first option is the ur-priest/mt build, and the second option is the Archivist build.
Seeker of Truth 04-14-06, 07:48 PM	I don't own the book, but from my reading of these boards I've gathered that ur-priest requires a certain base fortitude save, thuse the mind-bender splashing.
Tenken 04-14-06, 07:52 PM	Ahhhh, yeah, it does. I totally missed that, that's why I mentioned putting Fighter1 in parentheses up there. I guess I should've just listed my original idea, hehe. So yeah, Fighter1/Wizard7/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 or Archivist20? Again, essentially it boils down to this: wiz + clr spells, or, a build that can use any divine spells? I'm worried that the wiz/clr build won't be able to dish out nearly as much damage as the divine build, even if it gets Arcane Strike.
Tenken 04-15-06, 01:28 AM	don't forget to snag mindsight if you go mindbender (under grell entry in Lords of Madness) Wow, that's a really cool and flavorful feat. Gotta ask my DM about that one if I go the arcane route.
Tenken 04-17-06, 12:57 PM	Anyone?
RuneLordAsmodeus 04-17-06, 01:27 PM	Why not be a dwarf for and for one of those two unallocated levels take RuneSmith. This gives you access to cast wizards spells in full platemail. I currently am playing a Fighter 1/Wizard 4/RuneSmith 1/Ur-priest 2/MT10. Ur-priest has harse prequestisits. Fort +3!!! so need fighter, Will +3, Plus some skills that are not normally on your class list do need educated. Plus RuneSmith requires Heavy Armour profiency so which fighter gives you for free plus it allows you to make the Fort +3 preq. Also need a max Int to handle all the craft + Ur priest skills. Only made the requirements by 2 skills points at each prestige class divide..fhew... I recommend taking Practised Spellcaster Wiz becasue Ur-priest takes 1/2 your wiz caster levels and adds it to Ur-priest caster lvl. I have already megged this one out myself... Whe it comes to feats.. the divine metamagic blag is good... plus take sudden maximize and empower for wiz spells. Plus if you wannu go super gross for your levels after MT take two levels of Tainted Scholar from Heros of Horror. get yourself 65 taints and have a spellcasting Intelligence and Wisdom score for both class of 75!!!! Outgoing DC base of 42 + spell lvl. hehehehe.
DeimoZz 04-17-06, 01:58 PM	If you want to build a melee theuge, how about this build? Wizard 3/ Archivist 3/ Theuge 10/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ "X" 3 As a race pick ?Necropolitan? (the zero level adjustment undead race) and if you can convince your DM let yourself be created on Desecrated site by someone with some undead craft feats. Combine this with the feat that let's you add your Int bonus to HP instead of Con from one of the Dragon Magazines (?Faerie Mysteries Initiate?) You'll have more Hp then any fighter would ever have and absolutely no MaD problems :)
Tenken 04-17-06, 05:41 PM	I was hoping to get 9th level in both ur-priest and wiz, so Enlightened Fist wouldn't work. I'm also inclined to go with human, but I'll definitely look into dwarf. I'm not familiar with the Runesmith class, but if it's only good for casting while armored, I'll be skipping it, as this character would be more of a stealth based melee combatant, and not a tank that can take massive hits. From the responses, it seems like people think the ur-priest/mt build is better than the Archivist build?
Rhaynin 04-17-06, 06:10 PM	Personally, I really think its depends on your campaign/dm. If he's allowing you access to all these divine spells (via scrolls or whatnot) then go ahead and take the archivist. If not, I would stick with the Ur-Theurge build.
Tenken 04-17-06, 08:55 PM	He'll definitely allow access to all divine spells. But what makes you think the Archivist build is better? That's what I'm trying to find out, why one build might be better than the other.
Thaumaturgist 04-18-06, 05:59 AM	I do have a question regarding the ur-priest/mystic theurge thingie. And I don't know if it has been discussed before. What does Ur-priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 equal? A lvl 12 Ur-priest in terms of spellcasting ability and caster lvl? Or just a heightened casterlevel?
Rhaynin 04-18-06, 06:46 AM	@Tenken Archivist definitly offers a lot. You have more hp on average, better skills, better armor class, less mad, and the possibility to get important arcane spells from scrolls. Two good saves don't hurt either. Compare that to the Ur-Theurge, who, while getting a lot more spells per day is also more fragile (no armor, unless you take a 1 level monk dip for wis to ac) You do get the chance to take divine metamagic: persistant spell though, for all those nice 24 hour buffs like divine power and divine favor. These will turn you a formidable melee combatant, even though you will still lack the hp to take hits. If I would get the chance to start at higher levels I would play the Ur-Theurge. At lower and mid levels, the Archivist has more potential will be more survivable imho.
Tenken 04-18-06, 08:40 AM	I didn't realize that an Archivist could learn arcane spells...? From what I read, they're able to learn only divine spells. Did I miss something? Thaumaturgist: A Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge10 is just the same a Ur-Priest 10. You can't advance it beyond 10 until you're epic, so taking those last 2 levels of Theurge will only advance your other caster class.
Rhaynin 04-18-06, 09:17 AM	Yes, they can learn any divine spell. Take a look at the adept spell list in the dmg. You can find some interesting divine spells like Scorching Ray, Invisibility, etc. There are many more classes that offer arcane spells on divine spell lists. Take your time and go shopping! ;)