Archmage for Conjurers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archmage for Conjurers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pseudoephedrine
11-21-06, 01:13 AM Hi, I'm working on a 20th level build for a character who'll be starting at 4th level in an already established game. He's going to be a Conjurer specialist wizard (using the UA Rapid Summoning variant and specialising in summoning) who goes into Master Specialist and then Thaumaturge using Arcane Disciple or Extra Spell, whichever I can talk my DM into accepting. I'm trying to figure out whether it would be worth it to go into Archmage afterwards, or something else?

The build so far:

Neutral Human Conjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Thaumaturge 4 / ??? 3?

Str 9
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 17 (+1 to 18 at 4th level, +5 to 22 at 20th)
Wis 14
Cha 10

Feats:
Collegiate Wizard (1st)
Extend Spell (1st)
Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) (3rd)
Spell Focus (Conjuration)(6th)
Summon Elemental (9th)
Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) or Extra Spell (Lesser Planar Ally) (12th)
Repeat Spell (15th)
Quicken Spell (18th)

Banned Schools: Evocation / Illusion (Our game has lots of social stuff and many of the enemies are undead, so I need both enchantment and necromancy)

Special Rules: Rapid Summoning from UA

Would Archmage be a good addition to this build, and if so, which High Arcana should I take? Otherwise, what would be a good PrC with 3 levels I could take?

I can use any of the Complete X books (except CompPsi, but including CompMage) and PHB II. It's a homebrew world, so no setting-specific books allowed (including Oriental Adventures), no environment books (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) and there are no psionics. No Unearthed Arcana except for Rapid Summoning. Libris Mortis is allowed. Other books are on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks for the help.
fnord
11-21-06, 02:36 AM You'll want Augment Summoning earlier than you get it in this build, especially since summoning is your main trick. That's the inherent problem with Thaumaturgist; you can't qualify until late, but then you waste the bonus feat. It MIGHT still before worth it, depending on how your DM reads the Contingent Conjuration ability. If you're limited to one spell, forget it, but if you can do as many as you want, then it's very useful.

If it's a social campaign, I would presume you spend much of your time in urban areas, where you have access to spellbooks/scrolls to purchase, which significantly undermines the utility of Collegiate Wizard.
LordArkan
11-21-06, 05:51 AM Rapid Summoning is allowed, but you can't take the feat trade-out? That's too bad.

I hope those metamagic feats are for your conjuration attack spells, because they're certainly going to be worthless for your summons. ;)

I think Collegiate Wizard is still worth it in an urban game, because scribing new spells still takes significant time and money. Rather than the scribing opportunity, look at the Thousands of gold you can be saving on your spellbook.
GaffeR
11-21-06, 09:53 AM Arcane Fire - doesn't enhance summoning
Arcane Reach - as above
Mastery of Shaping - as above
Mastery of Elements - as above
Mastery of Counterspelling - as above
Spell Power - maybe, longer lasting summons
SLA - maybe, SLA summons might be ok

I think archmage would be worth it for the spells that aren't summoning spells. For someone only interested in summoning monsters, the requirements are way too steep.
Balkazar
11-21-06, 01:46 PM Im glad someone brought this up because I am in the same boat. Except Im going Strongheart halfling. But enough about my pains :) this is your thread not mine.

I think your Wrong Gaffer. Arcane Fire would have some use especially if the enemy is to close and your summoned pet isnt near by. Arcane fire also has its uses in finishing off an enemy whos running away?. Sense I like Versatility in my characters I think Mastery of shaping is useful specially when you can reshape that 20d6 fireball to go AROUND your party members and AROUND your summoned pet to hurt the bad guys and not you. So it has its uses. I think Arcane Fire and Mastery of Shaping could be very useful.

I think Summoning is also alot better then most people thing, it takes few feats to enhance your summoned pets. Not to mention Summoning a Thouqua is a good idea for those pesky doors that your rogue cant open :).

I suggest you go Mindbender at lvl 6 or 7. Just Dip into Mindbender for 1 lvl, to get Telepathy then you can communicate with your summoned animals. Not to mention talk to people up to 100ft away and scare them :).

I think Rapid summoning is good but I like the idea of a humming bird familiar. If get your init up as high as possible early on so you can cast summon spells before the party can react or the bad guys can react. Summon Swarm was used to great effect in one of my campaigns. Only way to kill the swarm is with an AOE :). So I dont think I would trade Rapid summoning out at all. But thats just me.

Colligiate wizard is good. Think about Dipping 4 lvls into MotAO, get spellpool 2, so you can get every wizard spell you want to cast from that pool then cast it, I think its a free-action to do that not sure. But its an idea ?.

What is Meta Magic School focus ?
GaffeR
11-21-06, 01:55 PM First off, I hate Arcane fire. A 9th level spell for some piddley d6s and no save/SR? Wooo hoo. I'm sure glad I cast that instead of.. oh.. Shapechange, Timestop, Gate, Wish, MDJ again.

Also, I never said those high arcanas weren't good. I said they didn't enhance summoning. For the rest of your spells they're quite nice. I also like versatility.

Finally, I think a Druid makes a far better dedicated summoner than an arcanist. I really love Conjuration for the non-summoning spells, though.
Phoenix00
11-21-06, 02:00 PM Archmage doesn't add anything to being a good summoner conjurer.

It does though add versatility to your belt, giving you more options at the expense of 1 feat, how ever many levels you want, and the spell slots you sacrifice for high arcana abilities.
Asciiman
11-21-06, 02:02 PM Archmage is only worth it if you are also going to Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil, so that you can synergize the feats.

This is a prestige class with just TOO high requirements, and THEN you have to give up spell slots to get the abilities. If it were one or the other sure, go for it, but as it is, don't bother. And in this particular case, GaffeR stated the truth pretty clearly.
Balkazar
11-21-06, 02:53 PM I was just thinking that it could be possible for you use go Mage of the Arcane order for the last few lvl's, you wont loose spell casting and you get some good stuff with it.

But I am going to have to insist that you need to get Mindbender, atleast 1 lvl should suffice.
Pseudoephedrine
11-22-06, 08:27 PM Thanks for the advice everyone. :)

I took Collegiate Wizard because our group tends to be feast-or-famine when it comes to treasure, and I can't rely on my DM to provide me with arcane scrolls (even for purchase) at every level. He also tends to roll for our treasure just using the DMG tables. I want to ensure I can get Summon Undead X and some other SpC goodies without much hassle.

So, if I'm understanding everyone correctly, I should scrap the Archmage/Thaumaturgist idea and instead go with Mage of the Arcane Order, with a 1 lvl dip into Mindbender?

Edit: Balkazar> Metamagic School Focus is from Complete Mage. It reduces the level adjustment of any metamagic feat applied to a spell from a single school. It only works on three spells per day though. Basically, it'll let me Extend three of my highest level summons for free.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pseudoephedrine 11-21-06, 01:13 AM	Hi, I'm working on a 20th level build for a character who'll be starting at 4th level in an already established game. He's going to be a Conjurer specialist wizard (using the UA Rapid Summoning variant and specialising in summoning) who goes into Master Specialist and then Thaumaturge using Arcane Disciple or Extra Spell, whichever I can talk my DM into accepting. I'm trying to figure out whether it would be worth it to go into Archmage afterwards, or something else? The build so far: Neutral Human Conjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Thaumaturge 4 / ??? 3? Str 9 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 17 (+1 to 18 at 4th level, +5 to 22 at 20th) Wis 14 Cha 10 Feats: Collegiate Wizard (1st) Extend Spell (1st) Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration) (3rd) Spell Focus (Conjuration)(6th) Summon Elemental (9th) Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) or Extra Spell (Lesser Planar Ally) (12th) Repeat Spell (15th) Quicken Spell (18th) Banned Schools: Evocation / Illusion (Our game has lots of social stuff and many of the enemies are undead, so I need both enchantment and necromancy) Special Rules: Rapid Summoning from UA Would Archmage be a good addition to this build, and if so, which High Arcana should I take? Otherwise, what would be a good PrC with 3 levels I could take? I can use any of the Complete X books (except CompPsi, but including CompMage) and PHB II. It's a homebrew world, so no setting-specific books allowed (including Oriental Adventures), no environment books (Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.) and there are no psionics. No Unearthed Arcana except for Rapid Summoning. Libris Mortis is allowed. Other books are on a case-by-case basis. Thanks for the help.
fnord 11-21-06, 02:36 AM	You'll want Augment Summoning earlier than you get it in this build, especially since summoning is your main trick. That's the inherent problem with Thaumaturgist; you can't qualify until late, but then you waste the bonus feat. It MIGHT still before worth it, depending on how your DM reads the Contingent Conjuration ability. If you're limited to one spell, forget it, but if you can do as many as you want, then it's very useful. If it's a social campaign, I would presume you spend much of your time in urban areas, where you have access to spellbooks/scrolls to purchase, which significantly undermines the utility of Collegiate Wizard.
LordArkan 11-21-06, 05:51 AM	Rapid Summoning is allowed, but you can't take the feat trade-out? That's too bad. I hope those metamagic feats are for your conjuration attack spells, because they're certainly going to be worthless for your summons. ;) I think Collegiate Wizard is still worth it in an urban game, because scribing new spells still takes significant time and money. Rather than the scribing opportunity, look at the Thousands of gold you can be saving on your spellbook.
GaffeR 11-21-06, 09:53 AM	Arcane Fire - doesn't enhance summoning Arcane Reach - as above Mastery of Shaping - as above Mastery of Elements - as above Mastery of Counterspelling - as above Spell Power - maybe, longer lasting summons SLA - maybe, SLA summons might be ok I think archmage would be worth it for the spells that aren't summoning spells. For someone only interested in summoning monsters, the requirements are way too steep.
Balkazar 11-21-06, 01:46 PM	Im glad someone brought this up because I am in the same boat. Except Im going Strongheart halfling. But enough about my pains :) this is your thread not mine. I think your Wrong Gaffer. Arcane Fire would have some use especially if the enemy is to close and your summoned pet isnt near by. Arcane fire also has its uses in finishing off an enemy whos running away?. Sense I like Versatility in my characters I think Mastery of shaping is useful specially when you can reshape that 20d6 fireball to go AROUND your party members and AROUND your summoned pet to hurt the bad guys and not you. So it has its uses. I think Arcane Fire and Mastery of Shaping could be very useful. I think Summoning is also alot better then most people thing, it takes few feats to enhance your summoned pets. Not to mention Summoning a Thouqua is a good idea for those pesky doors that your rogue cant open :). I suggest you go Mindbender at lvl 6 or 7. Just Dip into Mindbender for 1 lvl, to get Telepathy then you can communicate with your summoned animals. Not to mention talk to people up to 100ft away and scare them :). I think Rapid summoning is good but I like the idea of a humming bird familiar. If get your init up as high as possible early on so you can cast summon spells before the party can react or the bad guys can react. Summon Swarm was used to great effect in one of my campaigns. Only way to kill the swarm is with an AOE :). So I dont think I would trade Rapid summoning out at all. But thats just me. Colligiate wizard is good. Think about Dipping 4 lvls into MotAO, get spellpool 2, so you can get every wizard spell you want to cast from that pool then cast it, I think its a free-action to do that not sure. But its an idea ?. What is Meta Magic School focus ?
GaffeR 11-21-06, 01:55 PM	First off, I hate Arcane fire. A 9th level spell for some piddley d6s and no save/SR? Wooo hoo. I'm sure glad I cast that instead of.. oh.. Shapechange, Timestop, Gate, Wish, MDJ again. Also, I never said those high arcanas weren't good. I said they didn't enhance summoning. For the rest of your spells they're quite nice. I also like versatility. Finally, I think a Druid makes a far better dedicated summoner than an arcanist. I really love Conjuration for the non-summoning spells, though.
Phoenix00 11-21-06, 02:00 PM	Archmage doesn't add anything to being a good summoner conjurer. It does though add versatility to your belt, giving you more options at the expense of 1 feat, how ever many levels you want, and the spell slots you sacrifice for high arcana abilities.
Asciiman 11-21-06, 02:02 PM	Archmage is only worth it if you are also going to Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil, so that you can synergize the feats. This is a prestige class with just TOO high requirements, and THEN you have to give up spell slots to get the abilities. If it were one or the other sure, go for it, but as it is, don't bother. And in this particular case, GaffeR stated the truth pretty clearly.
Balkazar 11-21-06, 02:53 PM	I was just thinking that it could be possible for you use go Mage of the Arcane order for the last few lvl's, you wont loose spell casting and you get some good stuff with it. But I am going to have to insist that you need to get Mindbender, atleast 1 lvl should suffice.
Pseudoephedrine 11-22-06, 08:27 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone. :) I took Collegiate Wizard because our group tends to be feast-or-famine when it comes to treasure, and I can't rely on my DM to provide me with arcane scrolls (even for purchase) at every level. He also tends to roll for our treasure just using the DMG tables. I want to ensure I can get Summon Undead X and some other SpC goodies without much hassle. So, if I'm understanding everyone correctly, I should scrap the Archmage/Thaumaturgist idea and instead go with Mage of the Arcane Order, with a 1 lvl dip into Mindbender? Edit: Balkazar> Metamagic School Focus is from Complete Mage. It reduces the level adjustment of any metamagic feat applied to a spell from a single school. It only works on three spells per day though. Basically, it'll let me Extend three of my highest level summons for free.