Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 05-28-06, 03:19 AM	There are so many spells I like to use with this ability of the Archmage. Id like to learn what others have found to be useful. One of my favorites is Maximized, Empowered, Arcane Thesis Disintegrate. :evillaugh
X-Codes 05-28-06, 03:32 AM	Waste a permanent 9th level spell slot on that? I'd say either Draconic Polymorph or Shapechange. That way you can cast these spells after casting Tenser's Transformation and go to town.
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 05-28-06, 03:46 AM	Waste a permanent 9th level spell slot on that? I knew some wise guy was going to make a comment like this.
X-Codes 05-28-06, 03:58 AM	I knew some wise guy was going to make a comment like this. At least I don't think that I have nothing better to do than turn things into small piles of dust. Besides, all your target has to do is make a save against a 6th level spell and he takes a mere 30 + 1/2 5d6 damage (which comes out to just under 40 damage on average). With Tenser's Transformation + Draconic Polymorph/Shapechange + Power Attack you could easily get more damage than that each round using much lower-level spell slots. If, at 17th level, you are using a spell slot higher than 7th level for a direct-damage spell, it had better be *damn* good. Even then, it's not always a good idea to have it there every day. (Seriously, what happens when your opposition hears of your famous Disintegrate spells and packs a Spellblade weapon just for you?)
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 05-28-06, 04:16 AM	Seriously man, lose the hostility. I just wanted to see what other peoples favorite options were and all you can do is be hung up on how much disintegrate sucks as a spell like ability and make implications of stupidity on my part. If you think Disintegrate is a bad option, great. Say that. Dont ridicule me and try to make me seem like an idiot just because you dissagree with an option I like.
Nightingale 05-28-06, 04:23 AM	Geez people, where is the love?
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 05-28-06, 04:26 AM	Geez people, where is the love? Not on the CO boards, obviously.
runestar 05-28-06, 05:09 AM	I would choose spells I would like to be able to cast without somatic/verbal components. Shapechange or teleport is nice if I am ever grappled. :)
Nightingale 05-28-06, 05:25 AM	Non somatic/verbal timestop sounds like it could be fun. :D
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 05-30-06, 05:43 PM	At least I don't think that I have nothing better to do than turn things into small piles of dust. Besides, all your target has to do is make a save against a 6th level spell and he takes a mere 30 + 1/2 5d6 damage (which comes out to just under 40 damage on average). With Tenser's Transformation + Draconic Polymorph/Shapechange + Power Attack you could easily get more damage than that each round using much lower-level spell slots. If, at 17th level, you are using a spell slot higher than 7th level for a direct-damage spell, it had better be *damn* good. Even then, it's not always a good idea to have it there every day. (Seriously, what happens when your opposition hears of your famous Disintegrate spells and packs a Spellblade weapon just for you?) Now that I have a cooler head Id like to defend my precious disintegrate. This is a MAXIMIZED, EMPOWERED Disintegrate. Thats 310 average damage on a failed save. That qualifies as "*dam good*" to me. If you focus on your INT like any good wizard should you should come out with at least 32 which is a +11 modifier (18 base +2 race +6 Headband of Intellect +5 level +at least 1 from Wish). This puts the save DC of this spell at 27 (10 base +6 lv spell +11 Int modifier). If you take Spell Focus, take a PrC that grants increased save DCs, cast extended or even persisted Fox's Cunning, and/or read a INT book, you can increase your DC even more. Im sure the hardcore optimizers can come up with int scores much higher then 32. Now, I know what your responses are going to be: "That save DC will be easily passed no matter what your INT is! All because this spell is a 6th lv spell! THREE lower then maximum!" "Everyone is going to be walking around with huge fort saves and monsters will always save against this spell because you should always be casting it against targets that have good fort saves!" "Everything you encounter everywhere and anywhere will always have the right counter to what ever you decide to do!" Well, I guess I shouldnt even play the game at this point. Whats the use when I will always be countered no matter what, ALWAYS, right? Of course you're going to say things like the hyperboly I stated above because you think you are right and there is nothing that anyone can say that can convince you otherwise. It doesnt matter to you that this spell is only taking a -3 save DC compared to a 9th level spell. What someone might think is fun doesnt matter to you because mathmaticly speaking that option is inferior, even if that inferiority is summed up with a simple -3. "Ive seen many spells fail by three or lower! It happens all the time! This is why it is inferior!" Dam, Im countered again. I guess I should just quit D&D because I will never suceed. [/end counterpoint] Ok, now that that is out of the way, does anyone else have any cool experiences with the Archmage's spell like ability option?
moto 05-30-06, 05:52 PM	I chose prismatic sphere simply because i cast it so much. It was a two for one deal basicly.
Wizu 05-30-06, 06:02 PM	If your campaing uses partial saves and bab I see it as a no brainer to start on the assumption that one day you end up as wizard 5/ardent savant 5/thatonelevelfiveprestigeclassformmtoo/archmage 5 and get mm as spellike ability. And arcane thesis. Even though youre hurting in feats, damn you got a one trick pony that can go nova. Now consider using all your spellslots to gain that much more uses for it. Use your five archmage abilities for different substitued magic missiles. Its like playing DDO sorc, with the exception that you never run our of magic missile. :P
Sci 05-30-06, 06:05 PM	insert "generic flame comment, using unknowledgable references to your parontage, grooming, personal habits, and everything else that has nothing to do with d&d, as well as general disapproval of your build, your methods of optimization, and frankly, your entire concept" here
Wizu 05-30-06, 06:15 PM	insert "generic flame comment, using unknowledgable references to your parontage, grooming, personal habits, and everything else that has nothing to do with d&d, as well as general disapproval of your build, your methods of optimization, and frankly, your entire concept" here ... that bad, huh?
Sci 05-30-06, 06:17 PM	... that bad, huh? I was referring to the random flaming that occured earlier in the thread. It's amazing how inevitable it is that when you come up with a concept, someone else shows up and says "That's stupid. You're stupid for choosing that." Instead of creatively consulting them on a better idea, they just flame.
Wizu 05-30-06, 06:25 PM	Oh, yeah. Seems it has grown to be habit once again in our beloved CO boards. I say we need to do something about it. Now there are two ways to approach it, either give a pm to WizO or then put up a public thread questioning the state of the CO boards (once again, we've been here previously). Seeing this is one of the biggest forums on the internet, we can just pray for civility. And on the subject of the thread, I'd argue that a shadow specced gnome archmage could find loads of usefulness from silent image as a spellike ability for 6/day. Couldnt it?
nbhs275 05-30-06, 06:35 PM	disintegrate wont get you 310 damage. no way. meteor swarm maximized with arcane thesis cheese, does 192,384 twined, so disintegrate isn't coming close. Don't flame up, just except the fact your horribly horribly wrong. Us spells that don't have saves and are better to cast silent/still, and have more use then "Deal xdx". My suggestions shades time stop shapechange mages disjunction
temillion 05-30-06, 07:09 PM	Time Stop all the way. Arguably the strongest of the 9th level spells, is there any time when you wouldn't want to be able to cast it? Even if you only roll for 2 extra rounds, it's still time for an Archmage to cast two spells.
Subedei 05-30-06, 07:22 PM	More like six spells.
majorfloppy 05-30-06, 07:32 PM	im not sure i follow quite how you intend to cast meteor storm maximised twinned. with expanded spell capasity epic feat?
nbhs275 05-30-06, 09:55 PM	i don't, i was just saying that there is no way he was getting that kind o0f damage with disint.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 05-30-06, 10:22 PM	disintegrate wont get you 310 damage. no way. meteor swarm maximized with arcane thesis cheese, does 192,384 twined, so disintegrate isn't coming close. Don't flame up, just except the fact your horribly horribly wrong. Us spells that don't have saves and are better to cast silent/still, and have more use then "Deal xdx". My suggestions shades time stop shapechange mages disjunction Um, I hope you made a typo with your numbers because a maximized Meteor Swarm can at most do 192 damage ;)
elfink 05-30-06, 10:28 PM	I think he meant 192 damage, or 384 if it was twinned (192 from each)
aelryinth 05-30-06, 10:28 PM	His comma is in a bad spot. He posted it does 192 dmg, it does 384 twinned. ==Aelryinth
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 05-30-06, 10:46 PM	Ah, I see now. My misreading :)
Book 05-30-06, 10:55 PM	To borrow an old Snow Savant trick, the best Archmage spell-like ability to take is: Fabricate Not only do you get to use it for its normal awesomeness for when you and your party need something made for whatever utilitarian or economic reason ... but you also can use the spell in combat. The casting time as a spell-like ability gets reduced from multiple rounds to 1 standard action. You can now "fabricate" a stone tomb around your enemies when underground or in a dungeon. You know, combat stuff like that. Targets will have to roll stuff like reflex saves, but they won't get any SR. DM ajudications is needed here.
Prominence 05-30-06, 10:59 PM	*skims over flames and useless posts* The best one I've seen has been Limited Wish as an SLA, simply due to sheer versatility for relatively small cost. Why pick a spell when you can pick -several- spells? That said, making a spell into an SLA should involve something other than blasting. If you are going to blast something, you're generally in a safe position anyway. No reason to make it an SLA when you can cast it normally anyway. Furthermore, generally you want to be able to slap effects on your blasting if you know what you're going into. Heighten to raise DC's, maximize, or empower seasoned to occassion. SLA should be your 'get out of jail. Now." card. That said, after limited wish if you're XP wary, here's some options: -Beneign Transposition (hilarious, make the BBEG grapple your thri-keen or frenzied berserker, bear warrior, woopsie!) -Dimension Door -Teleport -Freedom of Movement The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This makes fabricate iffy to me, as it can cost very little or an amazingly, stupidly high amount. It's awesome for stuff like Dweomerkeeper though. Oh, and it doesn't reduce spell casting time, unless you take Quicken SLA feat. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 06-01-06, 12:45 AM	i don't, i was just saying that there is no way he was getting that kind o0f damage with disint. Really? Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). At level 20 you deal 40d6. Maximize Spell [Metamagic] Benefit All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level. An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. Maximized Disintegrate at level 20 is 240 damage on a failed save. Empower Spell [Metamagic] Benefit All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Average damage of 40d6 = 140 Empowered cuts this value in half (70 average damage) and adds it to the Maximized Disintegrate (240 damage). 240 + 70 = 310 As you can see, the average damage for a Maximized, Empowered Disintegrate on a failed save is 310.
Book 06-01-06, 01:47 AM	This makes fabricate iffy to me, as it can cost very little or an amazingly, stupidly high amount. It's awesome for stuff like Dweomerkeeper though. Oh, and it doesn't reduce spell casting time, unless you take Quicken SLA feat. If it's a (Sp), its a 1 standard action casting time. Period. Fabricate as I used in my example is meant to use pre-existing material that's already around you and that does not need to be purchased. For example, the stone prison/cage I mentioned earlier doesn't cost anything, because the substance is already there if you are in an underground cavern or dungeon.
EldonG 06-01-06, 01:59 AM	Just a thought, but in the campaign I've been in for about 2 years, now, I've seen Disintegrate take out 2 major spellcasters and a number of monsters we were quite worried about. Just a normal one. Saves *do* get failed. Casters have a bad habit of failing Fort saves.
Harliquinn 06-01-06, 08:56 AM	If it's a (Sp), its a 1 standard action casting time. Period. No, it's not. As posted earlier: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Therefore, if you are turning an existing spell into a spell-like ability, it maintains the same casting time.
X-Codes 06-01-06, 09:44 AM	Now that I have a cooler head Id like to defend my precious disintegrate. This is a MAXIMIZED, EMPOWERED Disintegrate. Thats 310 average damage on a failed save. That qualifies as "*dam good*" to me. If you focus on your INT like any good wizard should you should come out with at least 32 which is a +11 modifier (18 base +2 race +6 Headband of Intellect +5 level +at least 1 from Wish). This puts the save DC of this spell at 27 (10 base +6 lv spell +11 Int modifier). If you take Spell Focus, take a PrC that grants increased save DCs, cast extended or even persisted Fox's Cunning, and/or read a INT book, you can increase your DC even more. Im sure the hardcore optimizers can come up with int scores much higher then 32. 36 if you don't cheese Age (which I think is a bad idea anyway, -6 Con is a hard hit). Fox's Cunning does not stack with headband. PrC's that increase saves are not that common anymore (mostly Fatespinner and Mage Slayer, thats about all I remember). 36 Int = +13, so DC 29. Uber-save build with Cha to Saves + Mettle + Evasion etc. etc: Base 12, +5 Con (14 base, +6 item), +11 Cha (16 base, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 item), +5 resistance (Vest of Resistance) = +33 Fortitude save (to start), 5% failure chance Tank Fighter Build: Base 12, +7 Con (16 Base, +6 Item, +2 Tome), +5 resistance (Vest of Resistance) = +24 Fortitude save, 20% failure chance Misc Melee: Base ~9 (Clerics usually a little higher), +5 Con (14 Base, +6 item), +5 Resistance = +19 Fortitude save, 45% failure chance Everything Else: Base 6, +4 Con (12 Base, +6 item), +5 Resistance = +15 Bonus, 65% failure chance A little bit of tweaking with an item I discovered today (Spellstrike Weapon, +1 makes it defending but for saves against spells & spell-likes) and pretty much everything gets a 5% failure chance against your attack (exception being people with no Fortitude save to speak of... at all, really). Now, I know what your responses are going to be: "That save DC will be easily passed no matter what your INT is! All because this spell is a 6th lv spell! THREE lower then maximum!" Yep. A wizard with a Spellstrike weapon (8k), Greater Magic Weapon (3rd-level slot), item of +6 Con (36k), and a solid cloak of resistance (25k), he has pretty much a 60% chance to make the save against your Disentegrate spell. If you heighten it instead, he has a 45% chance to make the save. Plus, since he will likely only have about 114 base HP (throw in another 20-30 temporary, give or take) then failing the save makes him just about as dead as he would have been if he failed the maximized empowered one (barring a terrible roll, but on a good one he'll be dust no matter how many temporary HP he has). "Everyone is going to be walking around with huge fort saves and monsters will always save against this spell because you should always be casting it against targets that have good fort saves!" Everything you need 310 HP of damage to kill *does* have a huge Fort save barring Undead or Constructs. You shouldn't be using this spell against things with good Fort saves, but against things with bad Fort saves. "Everything you encounter everywhere and anywhere will always have the right counter to what ever you decide to do!" If your signature spell is Disintegrate and your level 20, you will be famous for your Disintegrate spells. If then an enemy gets wind of your intent to kill them, then they can go to the nearest Wizard, have them cook up a +1 spellblade [disintegrate] weapon for them in a week and *bam*, you are so toast if you try to hit him with disintegrate. Well, I guess I shouldnt even play the game at this point. Whats the use when I will always be countered no matter what, ALWAYS, right? If you keep resorting to one-trick-ponies, yes. You will always be countered if you keep using one-trick-ponies and are fighting enemies with 10 intelligence. Of course you're going to say things like the hyperboly I stated above because you think you are right and there is nothing that anyone can say that can convince you otherwise. It doesnt matter to you that this spell is only taking a -3 save DC compared to a 9th level spell. What someone might think is fun doesnt matter to you because mathmaticly speaking that option is inferior, even if that inferiority is summed up with a simple -3. "Ive seen many spells fail by three or lower! It happens all the time! This is why it is inferior!" See above. Lots of things have good Fortitude saves, including 7 of the 11 base classes in the PHB. That makes this tactic mostly ineffective against 65% of the world, and the other 35% will almost certainly be smart enough to prepare against it if they have any warning whatsoever. Dam, Im countered again. I guess I should just quit D&D because I will never suceed. You said it. Can't say I'd miss you. Ok, now that that is out of the way, does anyone else have any cool experiences with the Archmage's spell like ability option? Any spell you might want to cast while Tenser's Transformation is in effect, since Tenser's Transformation does not impede SLA's. Short list: Dimensional Anchor/Lock (keep the opposition from running) Greater Teleport (run away if things get bad) Maze/Imprison/Banish (In case something comes along that you'd rather not fight, but want to finish off the rest of your enemies, anyway) P.S. Great job at being cool-headed.
Yavathol 06-01-06, 09:52 AM	Just a thought, but in the campaign I've been in for about 2 years, now, I've seen Disintegrate take out 2 major spellcasters and a number of monsters we were quite worried about. Just a normal one. Saves *do* get failed. Casters have a bad habit of failing Fort saves. One tactic I quite like is to use a Ring of Counterspells, only 4000gp. Cast Disintegrate or Feeblemind into it, to protect your wizard. Unfortunately, though my PC just got hold of one in my campaign, I'm not yet powerful enough to cast either of those; while the enemies are! Fortunately Disintegrate requires a ranged touch and most mages will use Mage Armour/Bracers of Armour to have a decent touch AC. (I just stuck Dispel Magic in the ring for the moment, BTW). Another tactic is the Headband of Conscious Effort from RoS - use Conc in place of Fort 1/day. How many Fort. saves are you likely to need each day? :rolleyes:
nbhs275 06-01-06, 06:37 PM	dispel magic, greater might work well. either have four uses a day or two quickened ones. Antimagic field also does well, especially with the shapable ability(shaped antimagic around you, tenser's and then shapechange as a Sp).
ninjarabbit 06-01-06, 07:23 PM	I'll vote for limited wish too, it's such a flexible spell since it can be a teleport, a heal (since it's a 5th level adept spell), or more.
Hesparex 06-01-06, 07:47 PM	Using a quickened true strike prior to firing that disintegrate largely makes to hit roll issues somewhat minimal. Counterspelling via item or spell is a legitimate counter. However this could be said about any spell chosen as an SLA
runestar 06-01-06, 11:31 PM	One tactic I quite like is to use a Ring of Counterspells, only 4000gp. Cast Disintegrate or Feeblemind into it, to protect your wizard. Actually, Ring of counterspells will not work with disintegrate, for the same reason it is not reflected by spell turning. ;) You don't so much cast disintegrate on someone as you shoot a ray and catch whoever is unlucky enough to be standing in its path. :D
Warmage_Smurf 06-02-06, 12:49 AM	Well, this is kind of cheesy, but... The description of Spell-Like Ability states: Spell-Like Ability An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot. And the description of Arcane Disciple states that you can choose a domain and "...learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells". So, if you take Arcane Disciple (Luck), you now have Miracle that can be a 9th arcane spell, which can be made into a spell-like ability... Admitadly, you can only cast it twice, but that's still once more than you would've before you took this ability...
Shadow_Fox_Deepwood_Arche 06-02-06, 02:37 AM	36 if you don't cheese Age (which I think is a bad idea anyway, -6 Con is a hard hit). Fox's Cunning does not stack with headband. PrC's that increase saves are not that common anymore (mostly Fatespinner and Mage Slayer, thats about all I remember). 36 Int = +13, so DC 29. Uber-save build with Cha to Saves + Mettle + Evasion etc. etc: Base 12, +5 Con (14 base, +6 item), +11 Cha (16 base, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 item), +5 resistance (Vest of Resistance) = +33 Fortitude save (to start), 5% failure chance Tank Fighter Build: Base 12, +7 Con (16 Base, +6 Item, +2 Tome), +5 resistance (Vest of Resistance) = +24 Fortitude save, 20% failure chance Misc Melee: Base ~9 (Clerics usually a little higher), +5 Con (14 Base, +6 item), +5 Resistance = +19 Fortitude save, 45% failure chance Everything Else: Base 6, +4 Con (12 Base, +6 item), +5 Resistance = +15 Bonus, 65% failure chance A little bit of tweaking with an item I discovered today (Spellstrike Weapon, +1 makes it defending but for saves against spells & spell-likes) and pretty much everything gets a 5% failure chance against your attack (exception being people with no Fortitude save to speak of... at all, really). Yep. A wizard with a Spellstrike weapon (8k), Greater Magic Weapon (3rd-level slot), item of +6 Con (36k), and a solid cloak of resistance (25k), he has pretty much a 60% chance to make the save against your Disentegrate spell. If you heighten it instead, he has a 45% chance to make the save. Plus, since he will likely only have about 114 base HP (throw in another 20-30 temporary, give or take) then failing the save makes him just about as dead as he would have been if he failed the maximized empowered one (barring a terrible roll, but on a good one he'll be dust no matter how many temporary HP he has). Everything you need 310 HP of damage to kill *does* have a huge Fort save barring Undead or Constructs. You shouldn't be using this spell against things with good Fort saves, but against things with bad Fort saves. If your signature spell is Disintegrate and your level 20, you will be famous for your Disintegrate spells. If then an enemy gets wind of your intent to kill them, then they can go to the nearest Wizard, have them cook up a +1 spellblade [disintegrate] weapon for them in a week and *bam*, you are so toast if you try to hit him with disintegrate. If you keep resorting to one-trick-ponies, yes. You will always be countered if you keep using one-trick-ponies and are fighting enemies with 10 intelligence. See above. Lots of things have good Fortitude saves, including 7 of the 11 base classes in the PHB. That makes this tactic mostly ineffective against 65% of the world, and the other 35% will almost certainly be smart enough to prepare against it if they have any warning whatsoever. Listen, you have somehow got it into your head that I stated that Disintegrate is the greatest, most uber uncounterable thing ever created and it will always succeed. I never said that. All I said is that I like it. I didnt dare anyone to find something better thinking that they couldnt succeed. I didnt say it is the best option and you should always take it. I didnt say Disintegrate is my signature spell and that I cast it as many times per day as I could. I didnt say I relied on 2 castings per day of Disintegrate to win every single battle I would ever be involved in which would result in being a one trick pony. Just because you have 2 uses of Distegrate as a spell like ability DOES NOT mean it is your signature spell. It DOES NOT mean you are relying on just those two castings to win every single fight for you. It just means you have two uses of Disntegrate per day without preparing it. Statements I made about casting on high Fort beings were sarcasm. Obviously you use it on things with a weak fort save. So, in conclusion: I like it. X-Codes hates it. Case closed on the disintegrate issue.