Archtyrant Terevoth's Challenge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archtyrant Terevoth's Challenge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tempest Stormwind
03-22-05, 01:22 AM To keep this short and civil, I've been involved in a brief argument with one Archtyrant Terevoth on the psionics boards. Two quotes from his last message in particular hit me as relevant here:

...one on one. Psion beats the druid. Extended timeless body trumps all....

...Core only, the core cleric versus a core psion (XPH only) is no contest. Psion wins...

The essence of his argument was that a buff-psion can and will dominate over everything else.

Okay, then. Let's keep this short and sweet.

Rogue's Gallery: Four characters (one psion, one psychic warrior, one druid, one cleric). CORE ONLY. (Consider XPH core for this if you don't already, and assume that the default Psionics-Magic Transparency rules are in effect. That is, Dispel Magic works on psionics, and Detect Psionics works on magic. Playing without transparency destroys any semblance of balance the XPH had outright, and isn't an even playing ground as it's a variant rule.)

Power Level: 20th, although you can go lower if you want.

Conditions of Contest: Twofold:
1) Dungeoneering. Your DM has asked you to join the current game group of three people on an extended dungeon crawl. Assume the party has the "other three" iconic roles (which means for a psion, they've likely got a tank, healer, and skillmonkey (may vary a bit with the type of psion chosen), for the psywar you've got the healer, mage, and skillmonkey, while for the divine casters, they've got a fighter, mage, and skillmonkey), and that these characters are pulling their weight (i.e. they're optimal, if not optimized to the point of twinkery. It'll be YOUR character in the spotlight). Your goal is to reliably spend the entire week adventuring in a dungeon providing DMG-suggested encounters (i.e. 4-5 equal CR per day).

2) Duelling combat. As before, but now you're in a 1v1 setting rather than a party setting. You're allowed the standard 3 rounds of buffing, and you begin within "long range" of each other (or "close range" if a psychic warrior is involved). The setting is allowed to be a variable here if you wish (default to gladitorial arena). If you choose cleric or druid, you'll be pitted against a twinked-out psion, and vice versa.

QUESTIONS: Which of those four classes would you play, and why? What sort of options would you choose? If you chose Cleric or Druid, why would they trump the psionic ones, and vice versa?

In other words, can an optimized divine caster stomp an optimized psion in gameplay, or will the divine might be paltry compared to the power of the mind?

Not looking for builds here (unless you want to), just discussion and relevant math (if you want).

Bonus questions:
a) If this were expanded to allow the Completes, how and why would your choice change, if at all?
b) as A, but this time, expand it to standard "all WotC 3.5 books are go!" instead of Core+Complete. What changes, and why?

OPT OUT: You can choose to not answer the first case (dungeoneering) if you wish, since it does not directly address Terevoth's statements, despite being a better reflection of the game in general. (I included the psywar since his arguments often hinged on gish-type psions with access to lots of psywar powers.)

It is my intention with this thread to settle the "Psionics are overpowered" debate once and for all, one way or the other, at least with regard to buffing. No one knows the rules of the game, the ins and outs of the RAW, and the ways to get the most out of your characters than you, the dwellers on the CO board. Let's see what you've got.

I'll be joining you after this kicks off. I feel that my personal bias may shift the starting conditions a bit too much if I enter immediately.
FabulousRex
03-22-05, 10:02 AM :bump:
RadicalTaoist
03-22-05, 10:43 AM You will want to include, as part of the challenge, putting up each character against a high level monster or two (let's see: a giant, a dragon, an undead, and a swarm should be good choices) and seeing how they fare.
Xeraph
03-22-05, 01:26 PM I dont believe im competent to enter this challenge, though i would like to point out two things.

1. Never seen a broken Psion build. (Ok one, but King of Smack is nothing compared to whats below)
2. Seen atleast two broken Cleric builds. (Dweomercheater, Divine Drainer)

Conclusion... Cleric kills all. :D And why not, they are an extensions of the mighty gods above and below.

My 10 pints. :angel:
lostone
03-23-05, 10:27 AM Sorry if I missed it in the original post. Are you using Psionics are Different or Psionics are Same? If Psionics are Same than I predict Cheater of Mystra will stomp your psionic upstart backside. If Different then I can't decide which would be better.
Khazra Reborn
03-23-05, 10:39 AM You can't compare to a core cleric or druid because a psion is not core, which would make it unfair...
Tempest Stormwind
03-23-05, 06:39 PM You can't compare to a core cleric or druid because a psion is not core, which would make it unfair...

Did you read my post? "Consider XPH core for this if you don't already"? Besides, it's in the SRD.

Sorry if I missed it in the original post. Are you using Psionics are Different or Psionics are Same?

The 3.0 teminology would be Psionics Are Same. In 3.5 we call this "Psionics-Magic Transparency" and it is assumed to be on by default. But yes, I'll update the main post to make it clearer.
Ravashack
03-23-05, 09:02 PM Core Cleric/Druid vs. Core Psion?

Just how many HP can the Cleric/Druid buff up to? Or AC?

3 Turns buffing can extend to more like 6+ turns buffing for the Psion BTW.
Kuroi Kenshi
03-24-05, 12:43 AM I agree with RT's suggestion of having each character vs a tough creature for its CR. But rather, combine that with option one. As-is, option one is too abstract, since you have three other members to factor in (and those members aren't even precisely defined). By having 4 or 5 equal CR creatures to face in a day as a marathon match, you'll more easily gauge the party efficiency of the character. That is, unless you are dealing with spells/powers that buff the party (like, say, bards and their songs).

I predict that while the psions might more or less match up in 1v1 for their ability to augment their powers out the wazoo, they're almost certainly going to fall behind in a marathon match.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-05, 01:22 AM	To keep this short and civil, I've been involved in a brief argument with one Archtyrant Terevoth on the psionics boards. Two quotes from his last message in particular hit me as relevant here: ...one on one. Psion beats the druid. Extended timeless body trumps all.... ...Core only, the core cleric versus a core psion (XPH only) is no contest. Psion wins... The essence of his argument was that a buff-psion can and will dominate over everything else. Okay, then. Let's keep this short and sweet. Rogue's Gallery: Four characters (one psion, one psychic warrior, one druid, one cleric). CORE ONLY. (Consider XPH core for this if you don't already, and assume that the default Psionics-Magic Transparency rules are in effect. That is, Dispel Magic works on psionics, and Detect Psionics works on magic. Playing without transparency destroys any semblance of balance the XPH had outright, and isn't an even playing ground as it's a variant rule.) Power Level: 20th, although you can go lower if you want. Conditions of Contest: Twofold: 1) Dungeoneering. Your DM has asked you to join the current game group of three people on an extended dungeon crawl. Assume the party has the "other three" iconic roles (which means for a psion, they've likely got a tank, healer, and skillmonkey (may vary a bit with the type of psion chosen), for the psywar you've got the healer, mage, and skillmonkey, while for the divine casters, they've got a fighter, mage, and skillmonkey), and that these characters are pulling their weight (i.e. they're optimal, if not optimized to the point of twinkery. It'll be YOUR character in the spotlight). Your goal is to reliably spend the entire week adventuring in a dungeon providing DMG-suggested encounters (i.e. 4-5 equal CR per day). 2) Duelling combat. As before, but now you're in a 1v1 setting rather than a party setting. You're allowed the standard 3 rounds of buffing, and you begin within "long range" of each other (or "close range" if a psychic warrior is involved). The setting is allowed to be a variable here if you wish (default to gladitorial arena). If you choose cleric or druid, you'll be pitted against a twinked-out psion, and vice versa. QUESTIONS: Which of those four classes would you play, and why? What sort of options would you choose? If you chose Cleric or Druid, why would they trump the psionic ones, and vice versa? In other words, can an optimized divine caster stomp an optimized psion in gameplay, or will the divine might be paltry compared to the power of the mind? Not looking for builds here (unless you want to), just discussion and relevant math (if you want). Bonus questions: a) If this were expanded to allow the Completes, how and why would your choice change, if at all? b) as A, but this time, expand it to standard "all WotC 3.5 books are go!" instead of Core+Complete. What changes, and why? OPT OUT: You can choose to not answer the first case (dungeoneering) if you wish, since it does not directly address Terevoth's statements, despite being a better reflection of the game in general. (I included the psywar since his arguments often hinged on gish-type psions with access to lots of psywar powers.) It is my intention with this thread to settle the "Psionics are overpowered" debate once and for all, one way or the other, at least with regard to buffing. No one knows the rules of the game, the ins and outs of the RAW, and the ways to get the most out of your characters than you, the dwellers on the CO board. Let's see what you've got. I'll be joining you after this kicks off. I feel that my personal bias may shift the starting conditions a bit too much if I enter immediately.
FabulousRex 03-22-05, 10:02 AM	:bump:
RadicalTaoist 03-22-05, 10:43 AM	You will want to include, as part of the challenge, putting up each character against a high level monster or two (let's see: a giant, a dragon, an undead, and a swarm should be good choices) and seeing how they fare.
Xeraph 03-22-05, 01:26 PM	I dont believe im competent to enter this challenge, though i would like to point out two things. 1. Never seen a broken Psion build. (Ok one, but King of Smack is nothing compared to whats below) 2. Seen atleast two broken Cleric builds. (Dweomercheater, Divine Drainer) Conclusion... Cleric kills all. :D And why not, they are an extensions of the mighty gods above and below. My 10 pints. :angel:
lostone 03-23-05, 10:27 AM	Sorry if I missed it in the original post. Are you using Psionics are Different or Psionics are Same? If Psionics are Same than I predict Cheater of Mystra will stomp your psionic upstart backside. If Different then I can't decide which would be better.
Khazra Reborn 03-23-05, 10:39 AM	You can't compare to a core cleric or druid because a psion is not core, which would make it unfair...
Tempest Stormwind 03-23-05, 06:39 PM	You can't compare to a core cleric or druid because a psion is not core, which would make it unfair... Did you read my post? "Consider XPH core for this if you don't already"? Besides, it's in the SRD. Sorry if I missed it in the original post. Are you using Psionics are Different or Psionics are Same? The 3.0 teminology would be Psionics Are Same. In 3.5 we call this "Psionics-Magic Transparency" and it is assumed to be on by default. But yes, I'll update the main post to make it clearer.
Ravashack 03-23-05, 09:02 PM	Core Cleric/Druid vs. Core Psion? Just how many HP can the Cleric/Druid buff up to? Or AC? 3 Turns buffing can extend to more like 6+ turns buffing for the Psion BTW.
Kuroi Kenshi 03-24-05, 12:43 AM	I agree with RT's suggestion of having each character vs a tough creature for its CR. But rather, combine that with option one. As-is, option one is too abstract, since you have three other members to factor in (and those members aren't even precisely defined). By having 4 or 5 equal CR creatures to face in a day as a marathon match, you'll more easily gauge the party efficiency of the character. That is, unless you are dealing with spells/powers that buff the party (like, say, bards and their songs). I predict that while the psions might more or less match up in 1v1 for their ability to augment their powers out the wazoo, they're almost certainly going to fall behind in a marathon match.