Ardent Dilettante and more... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ardent Dilettante and more... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ryutsuba
03-11-05, 11:58 PM Ok, a little bit of background here. I've got a friend who's planning on running a Planescape campaign for D&D 3.5 this weekend, and I've got a character concept totally fleshed out in my mind already. Basically, he's a human Sensate (for those unfamiliar with PS, the Sensates are a huge membership organization, formerly one of Sigil's major factions, who believe that enlightenment and "truth" can only be found in exploring the far corners of the multiverse and seeing, tasting, smelling, and hearing it yourself) adventurer and travelling ne'er-do-well who somehow managed to miss the entire movement of the faction out of Sigil because he's been on extended leave from the City of Doors compiling a "Traveler's Guide to the Planes" (think Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) and has just arrived back in town. I'd like to lean towards more of an explorer and less of a fighter; I don't perceive him as being a bookworm, but I do see him favoring his wits over combat. I'm interested in taking the Ardent Dilettante PrC from the Planar Handbook because it largely fits his nature and has some interesting abilities, but from my initial examination, the PrC lacks a certain amount of... bang for the investment buck, so to speak. I know we'll be using a point buy system, but I can't remember exactly how many I'm supposed to spend so you can either pick a common medium power game number and go with it or simply give me general suggestions (i.e. "Cha 16+") at your discretion. Getting down to it:

1) Does anyone have any suggestions for how to maximize the potential of the Ardent Dilettante without departing from the concept of the character and the PrC too much? (i.e. no Hulking Hurler levels)

2) On a different angle, what would be the best way to approach a travelling Bard/Ranger-type character mechanically speaking? If Ardent Dilettante doesn't work out or I don't like my options with it, I've been considering Bard/Ranger... but I've never played a 3.5 Ranger or multiclassed a Bard into anything other than roughly Bardlike PrCs... so I'm not sure how such a character would play or how I should split my levels. Any suggestions for unique PrCs or feats along these lines would be fantastic too.
catharz
03-12-05, 12:30 AM Ardent dilettante fits great with the Able learner feat from RoD.
It also works pretty well with Chameleon, although the flavor text doesn't totally mesh.

If you are considering Bard/Ranger may I suggest that you look at some of the excellent melee Bard/Druid builds posted on this board instead?

I also have a Ranger/Wizard (or sorcerer) build which, while not that powerful, is quite fun: Ranger 1/Wizard 4/Nentyar hunter [UE] 2/Mystic theurge 3/Geomancer 10

And of course there are a number of good melee bards using such diverse tactics as Snowflake wardance [FB], levels in Soldier of light [D&DG] with Divine might [CW], and even Warchanter [CW] berserking.

I know that none of this is exactly what you asked for, but I hope something is helpful.
Ryutsuba
03-12-05, 12:36 AM I know that none of this is exactly what you asked for, but I hope something is helpful.

Everything is helpful. I'd considered Bard/Druid, too (let's face it: Druids are powerhouses), and the idea of a Ranger/Wizard is different but interesting. Truth be told, I'm not too sold to Bard/Ranger, I just think it's a fun little combination I haven't done before, though I'm not terribly partial to ranged weapons or archer-type characters in general and I realize ranged weapons are probably where it's at for Bard/Rangers.
PhoenixInferno
03-12-05, 12:53 AM If you're Human (and really, you should be), then you definitely want to take Able Learner (Races of Destiny) - you buy all cross-class skills on a 1-1 basis, which is HUGE for the Ardent Dilletante - all skills as class skills.

You really want to angle on the skills with the AD. Its very unfortunate that they only get 6+INT skill points/level.

Unfortunately, the AD doesn't get a lot of great abilities and the best one for the requirements is Seen it Before - its not worth dipping into so many different classes to get the later abilities, IMO.
Iaimeki
03-13-05, 02:28 PM When I look at the ardent dilettante, I notice several things: 1/2 BAB, 6 + Int skills with all skills as class skills, 9/10 spellcasting advancement, and weird requirements. 1/2 BAB means you won't be any good as a combat character, in most cases, but 9/10 spellcasting and all skills as class skills is a good combination for skill monkey/caster hybrid. However, with only 6 + Int skills, to exploit your great latitude with skills you need a high Int; therefore, it makes sense to take Int as your spell-casting stat, and as far as I know, wizards are the only class that use Int for spellcasting (except for wu jen, but they're basically a wizard variant anyways, and they probably aren't as in-flavor or good for this build anyways). So, I would play a wizard, max out Int (get an 18, no matter how much it costs you), and meet the other requirements in as minimal a fashion as possible.

This is, unfortunately, easiest to do with a non-human. Elves get four martial proficiencies for being elves, and if you take a level of cleric with the War domain from a deity with an exotic favored weapon, you can easily meet the other ardent dilettante requirements. Dwarves count their dwarvish exotic weapons as favored weapons, so long as you can find some way to get proficient in all martial weapons without losing a caster level, you're done. Some other races get odd weapon proficiencies you can use for this purpose.

However, you wanted to be human, so you have a couple of options:

Rogue 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 3/Ardent Dilettante 10

Rogue gives you a big boost in skills at 1st level and you're free to pick any two domains you want (since this build uses arcane spells, Divine Metamagic (Persistent) doesn't help you much, so I'd recommend Planning and Time for Extend Spell and Improved Initiative). Cloistered cleric (UA) instead of normal cleric is good option because it gets 6 + Int skills while trading off some of the cleric's combat abilities, which you don't intend to use. You can substitute bard for rogue, but I don't see that that gets you that much.

Another way to do this involves the old gish trick of using dragonslayer (Drc) to get martial weapon proficiency and then taking the War domain for an exotic proficiency; however, this requires a BAB of +5 and two feats (Iron Will and Dodge), which means you'll have to spend some time in other classes before taking ardent dilettante to 4th or higher. You can also use the Militia regional feat (PGtF) to become proficient with all martial weapons, if that's allowed. I suspect there are other classes that advance casting while also giving you martial weapon proficiency (dragonslayer is notable because it also gives you all armor proficiencies, but you already have that from cleric and probably won't use it in any event).

The problem with all of these builds is that they suck at lower levels, because without casting, you don't have much combat ability.

One of the amusing things about ardent dilettante is that it gives you a legitimate roleplaying excuse to dip tons of different PrCs. I'll give some suggestions as to decent ones:

1) Divine Oracle (CD). Dilettantes get Reflex favored, but without evasion, it's not very good. Divine oracle gives you a form of evasion that works in any armor, along with some other minor divination-related abilities, at the cost of taking Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)) and a goodly number of ranks in religion.

2) Loremaster. Perform in-class, 4 + Int skills, and the lore abilities; I'd probably only take it if I took divine oracle, to reclaim the Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)).

3) Incantatrix (PGtF). If you took dragonslayer, you already have Iron Will, and the other requirement is easy. Incantatrix synergizes well with your focus on Int and is just an awesome PrC.

4) Exemplar (CV). This is more for a skills-oriented character with casting added on than a caster with skills, because it costs you a caster level. However, a 1-level dip gets you 8 + Int skills, a +4 competence bonus to a skill of your choice, and skill mastery (take 10 under stress) for 1 + Int skills. It requires Skill Focus (something), but you can reclaim that with loremaster.

5) Spelldancer (MoF). A 2-level dip in this 3.0 class gets you evasion and the ability to spelldance Persistent spells without costing caster levels, but at the high of four otherwise-useless feats (though Dodge synergizes with dragonslayer).

6) Magelord (LEoF: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2). If you're taking rogue, and you take a 2nd rogue level or get evasion through some other means, you qualify for this PrC. Basically, it allows a wizard to spontaneously convert prepared spells like a cleric, but with a lot more flexibility.

7) Chameleon (RoD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1). This class would work better in a build that mostly ignores ardent dilettante's casting advancement and focuses on the dilettante's other abilities. The Able Learner/all skills as class skills combination is still good.

8) Archmage. As always, good for high-level arcane casters to dip, and the dilettante's random bonus feats make it easier.

9) Human paragon (UA). This costs you a level of casting, but advances your casting while also giving you better skill points and hit dice, and also gives you a bonus feat and a +2 permanent stat boost (which should go to Int).

There are some alternate builds that don't work off Int synergy. If you go cleric first, take the War domain, take Magical Training (regional PGtF) or dip an arcane caster, then dip a class that gives martial proficiency, and you can build off cleric casting rather than wizard casting; unfortunately, this requires both high Int and high Wis. For bard, you could go straight bard, but it's probably more fruitful to do something like bard 4/cleric 1/ardent dilettante 1-5/sublime chord 2/ardent dilettante 6-10/arcane casting PrC 3; this build requires high Int and high Cha.

Feats:

Able Learner (RoD) is good if you intend to dip dilettante and move on to something else; if you intend to stick with dilettante, it doesn't help you that much. Nymph's Kiss (BoED) grants you an extra skill rank/level, plus some other benefits, and is obviously amazing for this build.

Skills:

My rule of thumb is that you get to max about 2/3 of your ranks/level in skills (with synergy skills and PrC prereqs soaking up the rest). Dilettantes get about 6 (base) + 4 (Int) + 1 (Int stat boosts--you get more later, but not early enough to do much good; besides, this overestimates given the number of early levels you'll have fewer skills with) + 1 (human) = 12 ranks/level, or about 8 maxed skills. You can fill two or three skill monkey roles with that many skills.

Good general skills to max include Concentration (all casters should max this), Escape Artist (it's a nice skill for casters), Tumble (battlefield maneuverability for a caster, without taking feats), Use Magic Device (if you're taking a bigger hit to caster level, for devices too high level for you, and/or for using devices off your class list). Autohypnosis (XPH) is a fun skill to dip, especially since to take it otherwise you have to be taking levels in a psionic class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryutsuba 03-11-05, 11:58 PM	Ok, a little bit of background here. I've got a friend who's planning on running a Planescape campaign for D&D 3.5 this weekend, and I've got a character concept totally fleshed out in my mind already. Basically, he's a human Sensate (for those unfamiliar with PS, the Sensates are a huge membership organization, formerly one of Sigil's major factions, who believe that enlightenment and "truth" can only be found in exploring the far corners of the multiverse and seeing, tasting, smelling, and hearing it yourself) adventurer and travelling ne'er-do-well who somehow managed to miss the entire movement of the faction out of Sigil because he's been on extended leave from the City of Doors compiling a "Traveler's Guide to the Planes" (think Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) and has just arrived back in town. I'd like to lean towards more of an explorer and less of a fighter; I don't perceive him as being a bookworm, but I do see him favoring his wits over combat. I'm interested in taking the Ardent Dilettante PrC from the Planar Handbook because it largely fits his nature and has some interesting abilities, but from my initial examination, the PrC lacks a certain amount of... bang for the investment buck, so to speak. I know we'll be using a point buy system, but I can't remember exactly how many I'm supposed to spend so you can either pick a common medium power game number and go with it or simply give me general suggestions (i.e. "Cha 16+") at your discretion. Getting down to it: 1) Does anyone have any suggestions for how to maximize the potential of the Ardent Dilettante without departing from the concept of the character and the PrC too much? (i.e. no Hulking Hurler levels) 2) On a different angle, what would be the best way to approach a travelling Bard/Ranger-type character mechanically speaking? If Ardent Dilettante doesn't work out or I don't like my options with it, I've been considering Bard/Ranger... but I've never played a 3.5 Ranger or multiclassed a Bard into anything other than roughly Bardlike PrCs... so I'm not sure how such a character would play or how I should split my levels. Any suggestions for unique PrCs or feats along these lines would be fantastic too.
catharz 03-12-05, 12:30 AM	Ardent dilettante fits great with the Able learner feat from RoD. It also works pretty well with Chameleon, although the flavor text doesn't totally mesh. If you are considering Bard/Ranger may I suggest that you look at some of the excellent melee Bard/Druid builds posted on this board instead? I also have a Ranger/Wizard (or sorcerer) build which, while not that powerful, is quite fun: Ranger 1/Wizard 4/Nentyar hunter [UE] 2/Mystic theurge 3/Geomancer 10 And of course there are a number of good melee bards using such diverse tactics as Snowflake wardance [FB], levels in Soldier of light [D&DG] with Divine might [CW], and even Warchanter [CW] berserking. I know that none of this is exactly what you asked for, but I hope something is helpful.
Ryutsuba 03-12-05, 12:36 AM	I know that none of this is exactly what you asked for, but I hope something is helpful. Everything is helpful. I'd considered Bard/Druid, too (let's face it: Druids are powerhouses), and the idea of a Ranger/Wizard is different but interesting. Truth be told, I'm not too sold to Bard/Ranger, I just think it's a fun little combination I haven't done before, though I'm not terribly partial to ranged weapons or archer-type characters in general and I realize ranged weapons are probably where it's at for Bard/Rangers.
PhoenixInferno 03-12-05, 12:53 AM	If you're Human (and really, you should be), then you definitely want to take Able Learner (Races of Destiny) - you buy all cross-class skills on a 1-1 basis, which is HUGE for the Ardent Dilletante - all skills as class skills. You really want to angle on the skills with the AD. Its very unfortunate that they only get 6+INT skill points/level. Unfortunately, the AD doesn't get a lot of great abilities and the best one for the requirements is Seen it Before - its not worth dipping into so many different classes to get the later abilities, IMO.
Iaimeki 03-13-05, 02:28 PM	When I look at the ardent dilettante, I notice several things: 1/2 BAB, 6 + Int skills with all skills as class skills, 9/10 spellcasting advancement, and weird requirements. 1/2 BAB means you won't be any good as a combat character, in most cases, but 9/10 spellcasting and all skills as class skills is a good combination for skill monkey/caster hybrid. However, with only 6 + Int skills, to exploit your great latitude with skills you need a high Int; therefore, it makes sense to take Int as your spell-casting stat, and as far as I know, wizards are the only class that use Int for spellcasting (except for wu jen, but they're basically a wizard variant anyways, and they probably aren't as in-flavor or good for this build anyways). So, I would play a wizard, max out Int (get an 18, no matter how much it costs you), and meet the other requirements in as minimal a fashion as possible. This is, unfortunately, easiest to do with a non-human. Elves get four martial proficiencies for being elves, and if you take a level of cleric with the War domain from a deity with an exotic favored weapon, you can easily meet the other ardent dilettante requirements. Dwarves count their dwarvish exotic weapons as favored weapons, so long as you can find some way to get proficient in all martial weapons without losing a caster level, you're done. Some other races get odd weapon proficiencies you can use for this purpose. However, you wanted to be human, so you have a couple of options: Rogue 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 3/Ardent Dilettante 10 Rogue gives you a big boost in skills at 1st level and you're free to pick any two domains you want (since this build uses arcane spells, Divine Metamagic (Persistent) doesn't help you much, so I'd recommend Planning and Time for Extend Spell and Improved Initiative). Cloistered cleric (UA) instead of normal cleric is good option because it gets 6 + Int skills while trading off some of the cleric's combat abilities, which you don't intend to use. You can substitute bard for rogue, but I don't see that that gets you that much. Another way to do this involves the old gish trick of using dragonslayer (Drc) to get martial weapon proficiency and then taking the War domain for an exotic proficiency; however, this requires a BAB of +5 and two feats (Iron Will and Dodge), which means you'll have to spend some time in other classes before taking ardent dilettante to 4th or higher. You can also use the Militia regional feat (PGtF) to become proficient with all martial weapons, if that's allowed. I suspect there are other classes that advance casting while also giving you martial weapon proficiency (dragonslayer is notable because it also gives you all armor proficiencies, but you already have that from cleric and probably won't use it in any event). The problem with all of these builds is that they suck at lower levels, because without casting, you don't have much combat ability. One of the amusing things about ardent dilettante is that it gives you a legitimate roleplaying excuse to dip tons of different PrCs. I'll give some suggestions as to decent ones: 1) Divine Oracle (CD). Dilettantes get Reflex favored, but without evasion, it's not very good. Divine oracle gives you a form of evasion that works in any armor, along with some other minor divination-related abilities, at the cost of taking Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)) and a goodly number of ranks in religion. 2) Loremaster. Perform in-class, 4 + Int skills, and the lore abilities; I'd probably only take it if I took divine oracle, to reclaim the Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)). 3) Incantatrix (PGtF). If you took dragonslayer, you already have Iron Will, and the other requirement is easy. Incantatrix synergizes well with your focus on Int and is just an awesome PrC. 4) Exemplar (CV). This is more for a skills-oriented character with casting added on than a caster with skills, because it costs you a caster level. However, a 1-level dip gets you 8 + Int skills, a +4 competence bonus to a skill of your choice, and skill mastery (take 10 under stress) for 1 + Int skills. It requires Skill Focus (something), but you can reclaim that with loremaster. 5) Spelldancer (MoF). A 2-level dip in this 3.0 class gets you evasion and the ability to spelldance Persistent spells without costing caster levels, but at the high of four otherwise-useless feats (though Dodge synergizes with dragonslayer). 6) Magelord (LEoF: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2). If you're taking rogue, and you take a 2nd rogue level or get evasion through some other means, you qualify for this PrC. Basically, it allows a wizard to spontaneously convert prepared spells like a cleric, but with a lot more flexibility. 7) Chameleon (RoD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1). This class would work better in a build that mostly ignores ardent dilettante's casting advancement and focuses on the dilettante's other abilities. The Able Learner/all skills as class skills combination is still good. 8) Archmage. As always, good for high-level arcane casters to dip, and the dilettante's random bonus feats make it easier. 9) Human paragon (UA). This costs you a level of casting, but advances your casting while also giving you better skill points and hit dice, and also gives you a bonus feat and a +2 permanent stat boost (which should go to Int). There are some alternate builds that don't work off Int synergy. If you go cleric first, take the War domain, take Magical Training (regional PGtF) or dip an arcane caster, then dip a class that gives martial proficiency, and you can build off cleric casting rather than wizard casting; unfortunately, this requires both high Int and high Wis. For bard, you could go straight bard, but it's probably more fruitful to do something like bard 4/cleric 1/ardent dilettante 1-5/sublime chord 2/ardent dilettante 6-10/arcane casting PrC 3; this build requires high Int and high Cha. Feats: Able Learner (RoD) is good if you intend to dip dilettante and move on to something else; if you intend to stick with dilettante, it doesn't help you that much. Nymph's Kiss (BoED) grants you an extra skill rank/level, plus some other benefits, and is obviously amazing for this build. Skills: My rule of thumb is that you get to max about 2/3 of your ranks/level in skills (with synergy skills and PrC prereqs soaking up the rest). Dilettantes get about 6 (base) + 4 (Int) + 1 (Int stat boosts--you get more later, but not early enough to do much good; besides, this overestimates given the number of early levels you'll have fewer skills with) + 1 (human) = 12 ranks/level, or about 8 maxed skills. You can fill two or three skill monkey roles with that many skills. Good general skills to max include Concentration (all casters should max this), Escape Artist (it's a nice skill for casters), Tumble (battlefield maneuverability for a caster, without taking feats), Use Magic Device (if you're taking a bigger hit to caster level, for devices too high level for you, and/or for using devices off your class list). Autohypnosis (XPH) is a fun skill to dip, especially since to take it otherwise you have to be taking levels in a psionic class.