Ardent Dilletant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ardent Dilletant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PhoenixInferno
08-12-04, 12:36 AM I just got my grubby little hands on the Planar Handbook and the Ardent Dilletant looks really really cool. I'm trying to explore its mechanics vis a vis its advancement requirements (role-playing ones aside). I was thinking Bard 5/Memory Smith 5/Ardent Dilletant X/ Loremaster 10-X.

Edit: Then I realize that Ardent Dilletant doesn't advance bardic music, making it quasi-useless as a bard PrC. Still a good Rogue class and good if you don't care about Bardic Music ( but who doesn't care about it?).
Thanks a bunch.
Ithilorien
08-12-04, 03:50 AM I'd like to second the request for Memory Smith info, or at least an explanation of where/how to backorder Dragon 311
catharz
08-12-04, 04:53 AM I would really reccomend back ordering the issue. I have it, and its a good one. One of the best D&D purchases I have made is back ordering Dungeon 100. For $10, it was almost as good a deal as the Planescape boxed set.

For review purposes I'll outline the PrC:
Full BAB, full (bardic) spellcasting, gains a new spell known each level (IIRC they are all Cleric spells), and gains one or two other abilities.

Slightly OT, but looking over Ardent Dilletant I decided it needed a few changes. As the requirements become more difficult, the rewards shold be greater. Otherwise you're forcing players to use it as a dip-class.

So, requirements change to "Ability to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells, or manifest 1st level psionic powers," and "Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, or cast 1st level spells and manifest 1st level psionic powers."

Benefits change to "+1 level of an existing spellcasting or psionically manifesting class," and (at 7th level) "+1 level of an existing spellcasting class, and +1 level of a different existing spellcasting or psionically manifesting class."

Does that sound too unbalanced?
PhoenixInferno
08-12-04, 10:06 AM Using psionics sounds perfectly acceptable to me. But advancing two spellcasting (or 1 spellcasting/1 manifesting) classes Mystic Thurge style after 7th level is a little borderline. I'm more concerned with the abilities - particularly the "See It Again" and "Death Holds No Interest" abilities. For the back end of a PrC, they're pretty weak I think, making an ideal drop point at level 6 to get "Seen It Before"

Actually, now that I look at it again, it may be more of a Rogue class, particuarly because it doesn't advance Bardic Music...CURSES!
catharz
08-12-04, 05:59 PM Originally posted by PhoenixInferno
Using psionics sounds perfectly acceptable to me. But advancing two spellcasting (or 1 spellcasting/1 manifesting) classes Mystic Thurge style after 7th level is a little borderline.

Borderline how? I'm concerned that the PrC pointlessly requires that you pick up 1st level spellcasting that will never be advanced again!
I mean, it isn't difficult for a Bard: Just take a level of Green whisperer.
PrC 'flavor' requirements that aren't built upon with class abilities are one of the worst ideas in D&D.

Originally posted by PhoenixInferno
I'm more concerned with the abilities - particularly the "See It Again" and "Death Holds No Interest" abilities. For the back end of a PrC, they're pretty weak I think, making an ideal drop point at level 6 to get "Seen It Before"

"See it again" is awesome. Think of it this way: Wish. There is a free +1 inherent bonus.
Here is another good one: Cleric casts Divine metamagic Persistant Divine power - Wohoo, now you have full BAB!

Death holds no interest is a nice flavor ability, but little else.

Originally posted by PhoenixInferno
Actually, now that I look at it again, it may be more of a Rogue class, particuarly because it doesn't advance Bardic Music...CURSES!

Hmm. Maybe it should advance 1/2 Bardic music, or grant its own music abilities. A PrC requiring this much dilution is hard to overpower.
Snow Savant
08-12-04, 06:48 PM I see a strong use of Ardent Dilettante in one of my Bard/Nar Demonbinder/Virtuoso builds. Specifally, replacing some levels of Virtuoso. With an emphasis on making this CHA-friendly build more tuned-in to becoming an expert scout (due to Bard Hide/Move Silently, Scent, Heightened Senses, & the awesome Sense Link).

Bard12 / ND2 / ArdDil6

Your BAB sucks like a hoover at +13. But you still get 8th level ND spells and you get 12 Bard Spellcaster Levels (4th level Bard spells) and Bard Song levels (including Song of Freedom). Not to mention, you get 18 levels of Bard Lore.

Skill-wise, you rock pretty hard. And you get all the ArdDil benefits up to and including "Seen It Before".

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
PhoenixInferno
08-13-04, 01:52 AM Originally posted by catharz
Borderline how? I'm concerned that the PrC pointlessly requires that you pick up 1st level spellcasting that will never be advanced again!
I mean, it isn't difficult for a Bard: Just take a level of Green whisperer.
Green Whisperer gives you divine spells? I thought it was a Bard PrC from the same Dragon issue as Memory Smith. Yeah, its true that you have to take a class(es) to get spellcasting and that does suck. It may be reasonable, as long as it only happens once the requirements changes to requiring both Arcane and Divine.

Although thinking about it a little more, the Hammer of Moradin also requires a little dilution. Fortunately in that case there are good solutions to the problem. Its not so much the dilution with the AD, so much as what you have to put into the mix. Its pretty easy to get a divine class with desirable properties and its own spell list - MUCH harder to do with secondary/tertiary arcane casters. Only 2 come to mind immediately - the Everskan Tomb Guardian and the Celebrant of Sharess, both in the PGtF.

"See it again" is awesome. Think of it this way: Wish. There is a free +1 inherent bonus.
Here is another good one: Cleric casts Divine metamagic Persistant Divine power - Wohoo, now you have full BAB!

See It Again only works for spells that have been targeted against you or spells that you are in the area of effect in. Unless someone casts those spells on you, then you don't get to see them. Typically, that means targetted offensive spells. Maybe if you get targeted with a Disintigrate by an enemy mage and you get to throw it back at him, but <shrug>.

Hmm. Maybe it should advance 1/2 Bardic music, or grant its own music abilities. A PrC requiring this much dilution is hard to overpower.

Agreed.
catharz
08-13-04, 02:01 AM Originally posted by PhoenixInferno

See It Again only works for spells that have been targeted against you or spells that you are in the area of effect in. Unless someone casts those spells on you, then you don't get to see them. Typically, that means targetted offensive spells. Maybe if you get targeted with a Disintigrate by an enemy mage and you get to throw it back at him, but <shrug>.

Oops. Well, I guess it works with party buffs like GMW at least =/

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PhoenixInferno 08-12-04, 12:36 AM	I just got my grubby little hands on the Planar Handbook and the Ardent Dilletant looks really really cool. I'm trying to explore its mechanics vis a vis its advancement requirements (role-playing ones aside). I was thinking Bard 5/Memory Smith 5/Ardent Dilletant X/ Loremaster 10-X. Edit: Then I realize that Ardent Dilletant doesn't advance bardic music, making it quasi-useless as a bard PrC. Still a good Rogue class and good if you don't care about Bardic Music ( but who doesn't care about it?). Thanks a bunch.
Ithilorien 08-12-04, 03:50 AM	I'd like to second the request for Memory Smith info, or at least an explanation of where/how to backorder Dragon 311
catharz 08-12-04, 04:53 AM	I would really reccomend back ordering the issue. I have it, and its a good one. One of the best D&D purchases I have made is back ordering Dungeon 100. For $10, it was almost as good a deal as the Planescape boxed set. For review purposes I'll outline the PrC: Full BAB, full (bardic) spellcasting, gains a new spell known each level (IIRC they are all Cleric spells), and gains one or two other abilities. Slightly OT, but looking over Ardent Dilletant I decided it needed a few changes. As the requirements become more difficult, the rewards shold be greater. Otherwise you're forcing players to use it as a dip-class. So, requirements change to "Ability to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells, or manifest 1st level psionic powers," and "Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, or cast 1st level spells and manifest 1st level psionic powers." Benefits change to "+1 level of an existing spellcasting or psionically manifesting class," and (at 7th level) "+1 level of an existing spellcasting class, and +1 level of a different existing spellcasting or psionically manifesting class." Does that sound too unbalanced?
PhoenixInferno 08-12-04, 10:06 AM	Using psionics sounds perfectly acceptable to me. But advancing two spellcasting (or 1 spellcasting/1 manifesting) classes Mystic Thurge style after 7th level is a little borderline. I'm more concerned with the abilities - particularly the "See It Again" and "Death Holds No Interest" abilities. For the back end of a PrC, they're pretty weak I think, making an ideal drop point at level 6 to get "Seen It Before" Actually, now that I look at it again, it may be more of a Rogue class, particuarly because it doesn't advance Bardic Music...CURSES!
catharz 08-12-04, 05:59 PM	Originally posted by PhoenixInferno Using psionics sounds perfectly acceptable to me. But advancing two spellcasting (or 1 spellcasting/1 manifesting) classes Mystic Thurge style after 7th level is a little borderline. Borderline how? I'm concerned that the PrC pointlessly requires that you pick up 1st level spellcasting that will never be advanced again! I mean, it isn't difficult for a Bard: Just take a level of Green whisperer. PrC 'flavor' requirements that aren't built upon with class abilities are one of the worst ideas in D&D. Originally posted by PhoenixInferno I'm more concerned with the abilities - particularly the "See It Again" and "Death Holds No Interest" abilities. For the back end of a PrC, they're pretty weak I think, making an ideal drop point at level 6 to get "Seen It Before" "See it again" is awesome. Think of it this way: Wish. There is a free +1 inherent bonus. Here is another good one: Cleric casts Divine metamagic Persistant Divine power - Wohoo, now you have full BAB! Death holds no interest is a nice flavor ability, but little else. Originally posted by PhoenixInferno Actually, now that I look at it again, it may be more of a Rogue class, particuarly because it doesn't advance Bardic Music...CURSES! Hmm. Maybe it should advance 1/2 Bardic music, or grant its own music abilities. A PrC requiring this much dilution is hard to overpower.
Snow Savant 08-12-04, 06:48 PM	I see a strong use of Ardent Dilettante in one of my Bard/Nar Demonbinder/Virtuoso builds. Specifally, replacing some levels of Virtuoso. With an emphasis on making this CHA-friendly build more tuned-in to becoming an expert scout (due to Bard Hide/Move Silently, Scent, Heightened Senses, & the awesome Sense Link). Bard12 / ND2 / ArdDil6 Your BAB sucks like a hoover at +13. But you still get 8th level ND spells and you get 12 Bard Spellcaster Levels (4th level Bard spells) and Bard Song levels (including Song of Freedom). Not to mention, you get 18 levels of Bard Lore. Skill-wise, you rock pretty hard. And you get all the ArdDil benefits up to and including "Seen It Before". XO, Snow :cloud9:
PhoenixInferno 08-13-04, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by catharz Borderline how? I'm concerned that the PrC pointlessly requires that you pick up 1st level spellcasting that will never be advanced again! I mean, it isn't difficult for a Bard: Just take a level of Green whisperer. Green Whisperer gives you divine spells? I thought it was a Bard PrC from the same Dragon issue as Memory Smith. Yeah, its true that you have to take a class(es) to get spellcasting and that does suck. It may be reasonable, as long as it only happens once the requirements changes to requiring both Arcane and Divine. Although thinking about it a little more, the Hammer of Moradin also requires a little dilution. Fortunately in that case there are good solutions to the problem. Its not so much the dilution with the AD, so much as what you have to put into the mix. Its pretty easy to get a divine class with desirable properties and its own spell list - MUCH harder to do with secondary/tertiary arcane casters. Only 2 come to mind immediately - the Everskan Tomb Guardian and the Celebrant of Sharess, both in the PGtF. "See it again" is awesome. Think of it this way: Wish. There is a free +1 inherent bonus. Here is another good one: Cleric casts Divine metamagic Persistant Divine power - Wohoo, now you have full BAB! See It Again only works for spells that have been targeted against you or spells that you are in the area of effect in. Unless someone casts those spells on you, then you don't get to see them. Typically, that means targetted offensive spells. Maybe if you get targeted with a Disintigrate by an enemy mage and you get to throw it back at him, but <shrug>. Hmm. Maybe it should advance 1/2 Bardic music, or grant its own music abilities. A PrC requiring this much dilution is hard to overpower. Agreed.
catharz 08-13-04, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by PhoenixInferno See It Again only works for spells that have been targeted against you or spells that you are in the area of effect in. Unless someone casts those spells on you, then you don't get to see them. Typically, that means targetted offensive spells. Maybe if you get targeted with a Disintigrate by an enemy mage and you get to throw it back at him, but <shrug>. Oops. Well, I guess it works with party buffs like GMW at least =/