Ardent Dillettante [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ardent Dillettante [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Votan
08-31-04, 03:54 PM Is this not a remarkable class? [the class is found in the Planar Handbook]

Now, I am not about to play one (unfortunately) but I thought for the sake of fun it might be nice to compare builds that use this class. Say at 5th, 10th and 20th level.

I will go first with my best suggestion:

Human
Bard 1 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Luck of Heroes)
Ranger 1 (Martial Weapons -- need this later)
Druid 1 (Quicken Spell)
Druid 2
Druid 3 (Spot is the 8 rank skill)
Ardant Dilletante 1-10 (increase Druid spell levels)
Loremaster 1-5

At fifth level you are still pretty weak but these three classes synergize well for a scout and so you can play this role for the party.

At 10th level you cast spells as a 7th level Druid and things only improve from here. Your reflex save is now officially amazing and the ardent dillentante abilities are beginning to kick in. In particular, skill selection continues to be amazing.

At 20th level you have managed to keep a decent spell casting ability and a great set of skills. It's possible that this might have worked better if one had emphasized Bard isntead of Druid. Still, the total number of skill points is amazing and this comes with decent casting.

Now, who can do better? :)
Snow Savant
08-31-04, 04:13 PM Yeah, I fiddled with this PrC quite a bit when it first came out. And I was a bit dissapointed with all my build structures for it.

Ultimately, I did post 1 or 2 builds (a search should find them) ... primarily adding the AD PrC to a Bard/Nar Demonbinder/Virtuoso type build that emphasized CHA. It got a bunch of Bard Song capabilities in addition to 8th level spells and Bard spells. More a spellcasting, skill-monkey "scout" type ... similar to what you are advocating as well.

Your Druid angle is interesting ... but without the advantages of wildshape, lacks quite a bit in the long run. If you can weedle at least 6 levels of Druid into the build, you can wildshape for 12 hours a day in a form where you can dump all your physical stats and crank high your WIS, CHA, and INT.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Votan
08-31-04, 04:22 PM Your Druid angle is interesting ... but without the advantages of wildshape, lacks quite a bit in the long run. If you can weedle at least 6 levels of Druid into the build, you can wildshape for 12 hours a day in a form where you can dump all your physical stats and crank high your WIS, CHA, and INT.

Well, I suppose that I could dump the Loremaster levels and go to Druid 6 before becoming an AD. That delays entry into the class but it would bring in wildshape around level 8.

My major reasons for going with Druid were:
a) Thematic -- bards, rangers and druids are all closely related in a lot of campaigns and so moving between these classes is natural (not an optimization reason but it looks nice)

b) Spellcasting. I'd rather have found a way to combine this with Arcane casting but I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that this does not work so well. Druid is the best core class to keep the high skill points and still have decent casting ability (especially with practiced spellcaster shaving off some of the rought edges).

Thank you for your reply.
Elgonn
08-31-04, 04:27 PM Personally I love the Ardent Dilettante. The ultimate skill monkey!

Gray Elf
Rogue 1
Wizard 1
Cleric 3
Ardent Dilettante 10
Dweomerkeeper 5
(mix DW and AD)

This is the current build I am playing. I really don't think the AD is bad at all.

EDIT: Wait had a house rule in there screwing up the norm.
Razorblade Smile
08-31-04, 08:12 PM I experimented with this class not too long ago. Here's what I came up with:

AMBRAN THE SEEKER
Brief Concept: Once a sheltered priest of Oghma, Brother Ambram received a vision one night that urged him to go out and travel the multiverse in order to gather more lore and knowledge for the church.

1st: Cloistered Cleric 1: Nymph's Kiss, Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion)
2nd: CC 2:
3rd: CC 3: Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)
4th: CC 4:
5th: CC 5:
6th: Divine Oracle 1: Feat of Choice
7th: DO 2:
8th: Ardent Dilettante 1:
9th: AD 2: Feat of Choice
10th: AD 3:
11th: AD 4: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice
12th: AD 5:
13th: AD 6:
14th: AD 7: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice
15th: AD 8:
16th: AD 9:
17th: AD 10: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice
18th: Contemplative 1:
19th: Cnt 2:
20th: Cnt 3:

Weapon Groups: Simple Weapons, Flails & Chains, Exotic Weapons.
Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor.
Hit Dice: 10d8+10d6+CON.
Base Saves: Fort +8, Reflexes +9, Will +13 plus the equivalence of Evasion.
Bardic Knowledge: 15 levels worth.
Spells: 19th-level Cleric.
Domains: Knowledge, Luck, Oracle, Travel, Trickery.

Notes: The Auspician is another option in lieu of Contemplative, but its a little too feat intensive for my tastes. Fits in really well nonetheless, though. Bard was skipped altogether as you can snag Perform 8 cross-class by the time you need it.
Vanigo
08-31-04, 09:05 PM Seems to me that it could work for any caster, but that the wizard's high int gives him an extra edge. He doesn't have the best skill list, but that's what the first three levels of AD are for. With nine or ten skill points a level, it shouldn't be hard to squeeze eight ranks of perform into three levels, and no problem at all to get 5 ranks in a strength-based skill and a dex-based skill over the next six.
Of course, you do lose a minimum of three caster levels (or two caster levels and three feats for martial weapon proficiencies; the druid's scimitar proficiency being the fourth), so it's a fairly expensive path to take.
PhoenixInferno
08-31-04, 09:25 PM I was also very intrigued by the Ardent Dilletant when I first saw it, but having thought harder on it, I realized that for Druids and Bards, its not really worth it because you give up so much of your natural class' abilities, and you have to take so much to advance it completely. The higher level abilities are also not awe-inspiring so there's no reason to take it all the way to 10. I think a good stopping point was 6.
Razorblade Smile
09-01-04, 12:20 AM I was also very intrigued by the Ardent Dilletant when I first saw it, but having thought harder on it, I realized that for Druids and Bards, its not really worth it because you give up so much of your natural class' abilities, and you have to take so much to advance it completely.
I managed to build a pretty decent one without using Bard or Druid. The Cloistered Cleric variant from UA is a woefully underestimated class.

Basically all you lose is your attack bonus progression (which doesn't mean much once you score Persistant Spell and Divine Power) and access to armor and shields heavier than Light Armor. In exchange you get bardic knowledge, a bonus domain, an improved spell list, and tons of skill points.

Edit: Oh, and your hit die drops to d6 (an average of -1 per level). Still a pretty decent trade in my opinion.
Snicker-Snack
09-01-04, 01:04 AM Hey, Razorblade, just a question:

I might be blind, but where did you get the 1st level Arcane spells for qualifying to Ardent Dilettante level 7?
Razorblade Smile
09-01-04, 01:09 AM Hey, Razorblade, just a question:

I might be blind, but where did you get the 1st level Arcane spells for qualifying to Ardent Dilettante level 7?
Well kiss my grits. I totally missed that requirement when I first designed that. Oops! Hmm, did I miss anything else? Wouldn't be the first time.

In any case, I guess giving up Contemplative 3 (Divine Health is overrated) and delaying Ardent Dilettante 7 an extra level to pick up Bard (I'd prefer Wizard I think -- more versatility and a bonus feat to boot) would still make for a decent build with a CL 18 cleric equivalence.
catharz
09-01-04, 01:37 AM Ardent dilettante has a huge hole in it. Up until 7th level, every major requirement is compensated by a class benefit. At 7th level, you suddenly need a second spellcasting class, but can still only advance one. Which makes little sense from either a design or RP perspective.

So, Ardent dilettante is really just a 6-level PrC. If you want to play a multiclass Druid/Bard, Green whisperer is probably a far better option.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Votan 08-31-04, 03:54 PM	Is this not a remarkable class? [the class is found in the Planar Handbook] Now, I am not about to play one (unfortunately) but I thought for the sake of fun it might be nice to compare builds that use this class. Say at 5th, 10th and 20th level. I will go first with my best suggestion: Human Bard 1 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Luck of Heroes) Ranger 1 (Martial Weapons -- need this later) Druid 1 (Quicken Spell) Druid 2 Druid 3 (Spot is the 8 rank skill) Ardant Dilletante 1-10 (increase Druid spell levels) Loremaster 1-5 At fifth level you are still pretty weak but these three classes synergize well for a scout and so you can play this role for the party. At 10th level you cast spells as a 7th level Druid and things only improve from here. Your reflex save is now officially amazing and the ardent dillentante abilities are beginning to kick in. In particular, skill selection continues to be amazing. At 20th level you have managed to keep a decent spell casting ability and a great set of skills. It's possible that this might have worked better if one had emphasized Bard isntead of Druid. Still, the total number of skill points is amazing and this comes with decent casting. Now, who can do better? :)
Snow Savant 08-31-04, 04:13 PM	Yeah, I fiddled with this PrC quite a bit when it first came out. And I was a bit dissapointed with all my build structures for it. Ultimately, I did post 1 or 2 builds (a search should find them) ... primarily adding the AD PrC to a Bard/Nar Demonbinder/Virtuoso type build that emphasized CHA. It got a bunch of Bard Song capabilities in addition to 8th level spells and Bard spells. More a spellcasting, skill-monkey "scout" type ... similar to what you are advocating as well. Your Druid angle is interesting ... but without the advantages of wildshape, lacks quite a bit in the long run. If you can weedle at least 6 levels of Druid into the build, you can wildshape for 12 hours a day in a form where you can dump all your physical stats and crank high your WIS, CHA, and INT. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Votan 08-31-04, 04:22 PM	Your Druid angle is interesting ... but without the advantages of wildshape, lacks quite a bit in the long run. If you can weedle at least 6 levels of Druid into the build, you can wildshape for 12 hours a day in a form where you can dump all your physical stats and crank high your WIS, CHA, and INT. Well, I suppose that I could dump the Loremaster levels and go to Druid 6 before becoming an AD. That delays entry into the class but it would bring in wildshape around level 8. My major reasons for going with Druid were: a) Thematic -- bards, rangers and druids are all closely related in a lot of campaigns and so moving between these classes is natural (not an optimization reason but it looks nice) b) Spellcasting. I'd rather have found a way to combine this with Arcane casting but I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that this does not work so well. Druid is the best core class to keep the high skill points and still have decent casting ability (especially with practiced spellcaster shaving off some of the rought edges). Thank you for your reply.
Elgonn 08-31-04, 04:27 PM	Personally I love the Ardent Dilettante. The ultimate skill monkey! Gray Elf Rogue 1 Wizard 1 Cleric 3 Ardent Dilettante 10 Dweomerkeeper 5 (mix DW and AD) This is the current build I am playing. I really don't think the AD is bad at all. EDIT: Wait had a house rule in there screwing up the norm.
Razorblade Smile 08-31-04, 08:12 PM	I experimented with this class not too long ago. Here's what I came up with: AMBRAN THE SEEKER Brief Concept: Once a sheltered priest of Oghma, Brother Ambram received a vision one night that urged him to go out and travel the multiverse in order to gather more lore and knowledge for the church. 1st: Cloistered Cleric 1: Nymph's Kiss, Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion) 2nd: CC 2: 3rd: CC 3: Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell) 4th: CC 4: 5th: CC 5: 6th: Divine Oracle 1: Feat of Choice 7th: DO 2: 8th: Ardent Dilettante 1: 9th: AD 2: Feat of Choice 10th: AD 3: 11th: AD 4: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice 12th: AD 5: 13th: AD 6: 14th: AD 7: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice 15th: AD 8: 16th: AD 9: 17th: AD 10: Feat of Choice, Feat of Choice 18th: Contemplative 1: 19th: Cnt 2: 20th: Cnt 3: Weapon Groups: Simple Weapons, Flails & Chains, Exotic Weapons. Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor. Hit Dice: 10d8+10d6+CON. Base Saves: Fort +8, Reflexes +9, Will +13 plus the equivalence of Evasion. Bardic Knowledge: 15 levels worth. Spells: 19th-level Cleric. Domains: Knowledge, Luck, Oracle, Travel, Trickery. Notes: The Auspician is another option in lieu of Contemplative, but its a little too feat intensive for my tastes. Fits in really well nonetheless, though. Bard was skipped altogether as you can snag Perform 8 cross-class by the time you need it.
Vanigo 08-31-04, 09:05 PM	Seems to me that it could work for any caster, but that the wizard's high int gives him an extra edge. He doesn't have the best skill list, but that's what the first three levels of AD are for. With nine or ten skill points a level, it shouldn't be hard to squeeze eight ranks of perform into three levels, and no problem at all to get 5 ranks in a strength-based skill and a dex-based skill over the next six. Of course, you do lose a minimum of three caster levels (or two caster levels and three feats for martial weapon proficiencies; the druid's scimitar proficiency being the fourth), so it's a fairly expensive path to take.
PhoenixInferno 08-31-04, 09:25 PM	I was also very intrigued by the Ardent Dilletant when I first saw it, but having thought harder on it, I realized that for Druids and Bards, its not really worth it because you give up so much of your natural class' abilities, and you have to take so much to advance it completely. The higher level abilities are also not awe-inspiring so there's no reason to take it all the way to 10. I think a good stopping point was 6.
Razorblade Smile 09-01-04, 12:20 AM	I was also very intrigued by the Ardent Dilletant when I first saw it, but having thought harder on it, I realized that for Druids and Bards, its not really worth it because you give up so much of your natural class' abilities, and you have to take so much to advance it completely. I managed to build a pretty decent one without using Bard or Druid. The Cloistered Cleric variant from UA is a woefully underestimated class. Basically all you lose is your attack bonus progression (which doesn't mean much once you score Persistant Spell and Divine Power) and access to armor and shields heavier than Light Armor. In exchange you get bardic knowledge, a bonus domain, an improved spell list, and tons of skill points. Edit: Oh, and your hit die drops to d6 (an average of -1 per level). Still a pretty decent trade in my opinion.
Snicker-Snack 09-01-04, 01:04 AM	Hey, Razorblade, just a question: I might be blind, but where did you get the 1st level Arcane spells for qualifying to Ardent Dilettante level 7?
Razorblade Smile 09-01-04, 01:09 AM	Hey, Razorblade, just a question: I might be blind, but where did you get the 1st level Arcane spells for qualifying to Ardent Dilettante level 7? Well kiss my grits. I totally missed that requirement when I first designed that. Oops! Hmm, did I miss anything else? Wouldn't be the first time. In any case, I guess giving up Contemplative 3 (Divine Health is overrated) and delaying Ardent Dilettante 7 an extra level to pick up Bard (I'd prefer Wizard I think -- more versatility and a bonus feat to boot) would still make for a decent build with a CL 18 cleric equivalence.
catharz 09-01-04, 01:37 AM	Ardent dilettante has a huge hole in it. Up until 7th level, every major requirement is compensated by a class benefit. At 7th level, you suddenly need a second spellcasting class, but can still only advance one. Which makes little sense from either a design or RP perspective. So, Ardent dilettante is really just a 6-level PrC. If you want to play a multiclass Druid/Bard, Green whisperer is probably a far better option.