Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-06, 08:02 PM	Introduction: CO-board I would like you all to meet the Ardent. A new base class from Complete Psionics. This class single-handedly makes the construction of a psi-gish character so easy that it's sickening. Typically, a psi-gish finds themselves either too low on power points or too low on manifestor levels or too low on base attack at low levels. Since most people don't jump in at 20th level, it is practical to consider these problems. The Ardent class makes a lot of these problems simply go away, as you will see soon. Essentially, I find an ardent gish to be most optimal on the 1-10 scale, where as a psion gish squeeks ahead on the 10-20 scale. Either way, Ardent-gish are powerful 1-20. The Ardent Class Basics Full pp progression, that is you have as many pp as a psion of your level. "Medium" powers known progression, 1 more power known than the psychic warrior. Same progression (1 new power learned per level, except you start with 2). The mantle-list system. You don't pick your powers from a pre-defined list, so much as you pick and choose "mantles" which are like domains (having typically 9-11 powers ranging from 1-9 on each mantle. You begin with 2 mantles and eventually acquire 5 mantles. There are selection rules for choosing powers from a mantle: Your first two mantles are your "primary" mantles Powers learned from "secondary" mantles (gained later) cannot exceed powers known from primary mantles in any one mantle. Primary mantles can be re-chosen at 8th and 15th levels. Cleric Base Attack 1 good save (will). d6 hit dice 2+int skills with a bare-bones list. This is not an ardent's strong point by any stretch of the imagination. When thinking ardent, think cleric. Heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency, simple weapon proficiency. The Mantles Here I will go through what I believe to be essential mantles for a psi-gish. As mantle selection may be completely arbitrary (there is no alignment restrictions associated with them), I will probably suggest some rather bizzare combos from an RP standpoint. Also note that each mantle grants a special ability, which I will indicate. Conflict Mantle: This NEEDS to be one of a psi-gish's primary mantles. It contains powers like prescience offensive, psionic lion's charge, and metaphysical weapon. <<Granted Ability: Weapon Focus with a weapon of your choice!>> Physical Mantle: Contains such powers as vigor, animal affinity, oak body, and true metabolism. A good secondary mantle (gotten at 2nd level). <<+2 to strength, dex, or con for 1 round when you expend your focus>> Mantle of Light and Darkness: Contains a few useful powers, but contains the best one of them all for a psi-gish: claws of darkness. A 2nd level power, these claws are identical to claws of the beast in many ways (including damage levels and augmentations), it also can slow enemies as long as you are grappled. Downside: only rounds per level. I would take this mantle at 5th level. <<Gain low-light or darkvision, or double the range of your current low-light/darkvision>> Freedom Mantle: Contains hustle, dimension hop, the teleports (greater and lesser), evade burst, fly, and freedom of movement. A great mantle, I'd recommend making this a primary mantle. <<When focused you gain a +10 unnamed bonus to your speed.!! IF you expend your focus you get a +10 to escape a grapple check>> Time Mantle: Contains temporal acceleration and anticipatory strike (which is now 5th level). Grab this guy at later levels. <<Gives a +2 to initiative, or delay damage of one attack for one round once per day.>> Fate Mantle: Contains the precognition powers, remote viewing, and other nice seer powers. Obtain this mantle via a feat, if you desire it. <<expend focus 1/day to add your class level to a d20 roll>> Force Mantle: Contains force screen and deflection field, two 1st level AC boosting powers. Also has telekenetic force and telekentic maneuver, which are very good powers for a battle controller. <<while focused you have a +1 deflection bonus to AC>> Natural world Mantle: A fairly decent mantle containing metamorphosis, animal affinity, and metaphysical claw. <<You gain wild empathy, check = 1d20 + ML + cha>> Life Mantle: Contains healing spells galore. Good if you want to fill the role of a secondary healer as well. <<Expend your focus to gain +1 ML for use of powers in this mantle>> Race Analysis: What's the best race for an ardent psi-gish? Human. Hands down. Elan is cool too, but Humans get an extra feat and and extra skill point, which Ardents are hurting for. As with any gish build, Ardent psi-gishes suffer from too few feats. It also doesn't help that unlike psions, ardents don't gain bonus psionic feats. The Builds This is what is so great about ardent psi-gish: it's easy to make a great build, and difficult to mess it up. The Uber Tank: Base Attack Bonus: 18 Manifester Level: 18 Race: Human Ardent 6/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5 Feats (in order): Tap Mantle (Energy), (Overchannel), (Weapon Focus [Claws])*, EK(Claws of the Beast), Track, Practiced Manifester, Tap Mantle (Time), Iron will, Tap Mantle (Destruction) *From the conflict mantle Mantles: [Conflict], [Physical], <Natural World>, <Freedom>, <Energy>, <Time>, <Destruction> Powers known (#ed by ML): 1. Prescience offensive, 1. Vigor, 2. Metaphysical Claw, 3. Claws of the Beast, 3. Psionic Lion's Charge, 4. Animal Affinity, 5. Energy Burst, 6. Hustle, 7. Metamorphosis, 8. Psionic Fly, 9. Psychic Crush, 10. Dimension Slide, 11. Temporal Acceleration, 12. Anticipatory Strike, 13. Oak Body, 14. Immovability, 15. Spirit of War, 16. True Metabolism, 17. Intellect Bomb, 18. Ultrablast Mantle Abilities: Free weapon focus (claws), +10 move speed, Wild Empathy This guy is just a buffed fighter at low levels. He has the ability to make 2 attacks on a charge by third level and generally has great mobility. By 5th level he can use the energy burst power, which has an enormous area of effect (centered on him). He gains metamorphosis at 8th level (which is like polymorph) and from there on he can assume arse kicking melee forms. Mix in claws of the beast, psionic lion's charge, or hustle + dimension slide and this guy has the battle field covered. At higher levels he starts whipping out his apocalyptic 9th level powers with the rest of the casting crowd. He's got a little bit of everything, and not a whole lot more. Feats are extremely tight and most of them are taken up by tap mantle to gain access to more powers. If you want to have a good power selection you have to pay out the nose in this class, which reinforces the need to be a human. The Shock Trooper (For those of you who don't like RP reqs). Base Attack Bonus: 17 Manifester Level: 17 Ardent 1/Fighter 1/Ardent4/Sanctified Mind 6/Storm Disciple 4/Ardent 4 Feats: (Tap Mantle [Energy]), Overchannel, (Weapon Focus [Great Sword], (Power Attack), Iron Will, Leap Attack, Practiced Manifester, Expanded Knowledge (Intellect Fortress), Tap Mantle (Time), Expanded Knowledge (Form of Doom). Mantles: [Conflict], [Physical], <Energy>, <Freedom>, <Natural World>, <Time> Powers known (#ed by ML): 1. Prescience offensive, 1. Vigor, 2. Metaphysical Weapon, 3. Animal Affinity, 4. Hustle, 5. Energy Burst, 6. Dimension Slide, 7. Metamorphosis, 8. Psionic Fly, 9. Psychic Crush, 10. Oak Body, 11. Temporal Acceleration, 12. Anticipatory Strike, 12. Intellect Fortress, 13. Energy Wave, 14. Immovability, 15. Spirit of War, 15. Form of Doom, 16. True Metabolism, 17. Greater Teleport. Mantle Abilities: +10 to move while focused, Free Weapon Focus Feat, Wild Empathy. Despite the reduced BAB and ML when compared to the Uber Tank build, this build isn't so "tight" on the feat end. Only one feat is required: Iron will. This guy focuses on charging and energy damage. The basic idea of this guy is that he charges in with an uber power attack and augmented psionic lion's charge. Finish it off with an energy burst or what have you. I also included a few select utility powers, like intellect fortress, which has personally saved my ass many a time while gaming. Note also that this guy has electricity resistance 15 and all his allies within 15 feat (plus him of course) deal an extra 1 point of electricity damage per attack. Not to mention all the fun goodies of the sanctified mind class (which includes PR!). As one can see this build again illustrates how an ardent gish is very powerful every level from 1-20. The Soul-infused Gish Base Attack Bonus: 15 Manifester Level: 17 Totemist2/Ardent 7/Storm Disciple 4/Ardent 7 Race: Azurin Feats (in order): (Expanded Soulmeld Capacity), Cobalt Charge, (WF: Claws), Practiced Manifestor, Bonus Essentia, Expanded Knowledge (Open Chakra), Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast), Expanded Knowledge (Incarnum fusion), Tap Mantle (Destruction) Mantles: [Natural World], [Conflict], <Freedom>, <Energy>, <Time>, <Destruction> Powers known (#ed by ML): 1. Prescience offensive, 1. Metaphysical Claw, 2. Psionic Lion's Charge, 3. Animal Affinity, 4. Hustle, 5. Energy Burst, 6. Dimension Slide, 7. Metamorphosis, 7. Open Chakra, 8. Psionic Fly, 9. Psychic Crush, 10. Oak Body 10. Claws of the Beast, 11. Teleport, 12. Immovability, 13. Energy Wave, 14. Freedom of Movement, 14. Incarnum Fusion, 15. Spirit of War, 16. True Metabolism, 17. Intellect Bomb. Mantle Abilities: +10 to move while focused, Free Weapon Focus Feat, +2 initiative, Wild Empathy, Expend Focus to gain energy resistance. Incarnum and Psionics meld quite nicely here. Totemist allows us to bind 1 soulmeld to our totem chakra and gives us 3 soulmelds to shape per day (along with 2 points of essentia). By 6th level this guy has a total of 6 points of essentia to spend, which is all he'll ever need from now until 20th level. At low levels he binds certain soulmelds to his totem to gain claw attacks. He augments the claws with metaphysical claw and other powers. Towards the mid-levels (9-14) he gains access to more chakras as he now knows the open chakra power. At 12th level he gets the claws of the beast power, which now offers better claws than he can get with totemist. I provide a level-by-level guide for claws and binds below: Level: 2. Bind Sphinx Claws to Totem and invest 3 essentia (your capacity is 3 because of the expanded soulmeld capacity feat and the totemist class ability which grants +1 on totem binds). These claws deal 1d8 and have a +3 enhancement bonus. Pretty nice for 2nd level eh? Since you can shape 2 other soulmelds, I recommend shaping Wormtail belt (bound to nothing) with 1 essentia invested to get a +3 natural armor bonus, and the Lammasu Mantle (bound to nothing) to get a +2 deflection bonus against evil creatures. 6. You get 2 more essentia and one more capacity on your sphinx claws. Invest 1 of this essentia into the sphinx claws and the other into the Wormtail belt. The effect is: 2 claws that deal 1d8 + 4 enhancement + STR, and a +4 natural armor bonus. Also continue shaping the Lammasu Mantle for another +2 deflection against evil creatures. 9. You get open chakra. Yay. Drop the Lammasu Mantle and bind either urskan greaves to your feet or the worg pelt to your feet. Worg pelt gives you an extra 5 feet of move speed (+ 5 per invested points), or the urskan greaves gives you an extra +1d4 pts to damage on a charge per invested essentia. 13. Finally you can use open chakra to open your arm chakra, where one should drop the worg pelt/urskan greaves in favor of girillon's arms bound to arms, granting you rend with your claws. You now can drop 5 essentia into one soulmeld (that is bound to the totem and has expanded essentia capacity). Drop these 5 essentia into a Heart of Fire bound to your totem chakra. Use Claws of the Beast (augmented fully, which will last you 13 hours) to shape 2 claws that deal 2d6 damage. Now use metaphysical claw to give your claws a +2 (for 13 hours) or +3 (for 13 mintues). The end result is your claws deal 2d6 + 2 (or 3) +5d4 fire +STR. Alternatively one could progress with the sphinx claws and have 1d8 + 5 + STR per claw, but have better chance to hit with them. Either way, you get a rend attack. 17. Same story as in 13th level, except the claws of the beast route can now pump out 3d6 per claw and has a +3 (or +4) enhancement, whereas the sphinx claws do not get any better. 18. Sphinx claws, if you are using them still are now capable of holding the last point of essentia you possess. Alternatively, if you're binding Heart of Fire and using claws of the beast you deal 4d6 + 6d4 + 3 per claw. You do the math. Claws of the beast will win, unless you're fighting someone with really high AC or high fire resistance. It is important to note that at 9th level you're able to metamorph into other creatures. Troll forms are the best for a build like this. Once you're able to assume cave troll form things get crazy as you have 2 rend attacks, 2 rake attacks, dazing blow, pounce, and a bite. You'll be a complete Haas on the battle field. Oh and don't forget, this guy can still pump out an energy burst if he ever feels like it. Or at 20th level he can bust out a intellect bomb and rip everything to shreds with the power of his mind. TG's Verdict on the Ardent: This class is incredible for focused gish builds. You can easily get a very high ML and BAB without even trying. Clearly the Ardent Psi-gish will lack the skill versatility and power diversity of a normal psion based psi-gish. However, the Ardent definately can excel in one area more easily than a psion can. When compared to a psychic warrior, we see that the psychic warrior has a lot more feats to work with, however he doesn't have the sheer number of pp that an ardent has. Also, an ardent can eventually gain access to 9th level powers, where a psychic warrior cannot. In the end the ardent is a very good mixture between psychic warrior and psion.
Richmud 04-20-06, 09:10 PM	Ardent 6/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5 Just out of couriosity why not ardent 5/slayer 10/ sanctified mind 5? The fact that the 4th mantle shows up at 5th level just before you want to go into a prestige class seems like great timing
pyro_cat 04-20-06, 09:16 PM	Just out of couriosity why not ardent 5/slayer 10/ sanctified mind 5? The fact that the 4th mantle shows up at 5th level just before you want to go into a prestige class seems like great timing BAB, I believe. Requirements and all that.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-06, 09:36 PM	Just out of couriosity why not ardent 5/slayer 10/ sanctified mind 5? The fact that the 4th mantle shows up at 5th level just before you want to go into a prestige class seems like great timing Three reasons: 1. I need 4 BAB to qualify for Slayer (6 * .75 = 4) 2. It allows me to take the worthless track feat at 6th level, leaving my much needed low level feats open for things that really matter. 3. 10th level of slayer sucks, so I only take up through the 9th level. Sanctified mind levels are vastly superior to slayer levels (two good saves instead of one with nifty class abilities). I'm currently working on a build that incorporates the energy mantle (or another direct damage mantle) as the first secondary mantle. I believe it is important to have solid area effect direct damage power in there, from gaming experience. You just can't say no to a fireball every once in a while, no matter how much this board belittles that spell.
Random Hero 04-20-06, 10:15 PM	Just curious - Where can I find the Slayer PrC?
rilem 04-20-06, 10:25 PM	Slayer is the SRD (open content) version of illithid slayer.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-06, 10:25 PM	Slayer is the OGL name for illithid slayer which is found in the expanded psionics hand book. Here is a link to the OGL version: Slayer (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) Curses, beaten to the punch... well at least I provided a link.
amalcon 04-20-06, 10:29 PM	Don't forget that the Ardent's "maximum power level known" is based on what they have the ML to manifest. That means that Practiced Manifester is an amazing feat for them if taken early; by missing a level of manifesting (like from Slayer) they pretty much only miss 1 power known and some power points. Their maximum power level continues to advance without skipping a beat. Though the endurance and versatility losses would be a setback for a true manifester, they are not a big deal for someone with warrior aspects. The warrior aspects greatly increase a character's endurance, more than enough to compensate for the lost PP's. The versatility loss is similarly mitigated by the presence of other skills. (In fact, I could see this working remarkably well for a Cerebremancer (or, better yet, a Psychic Theurge) as well...hmm...). This is very spiffy for a lot of dual- or triple-threat psychics. Plus, an Ardent makes a wonderfully flavored Jedi base ;)
Tenken 04-20-06, 10:37 PM	Another good tactic, if you have a reasonable DM, is to take the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat from Complete Adventurer, and use Null Psionic Field from the Magic mantle. Now you have insane claws, insane buffs, and your opponent has only a masterwork armor to protect him.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-20-06, 10:48 PM	Don't forget that the Ardent's "maximum power level known" is based on what they have the ML to manifest. That means that Practiced Manifester is an amazing feat for them if taken early; by missing a level of manifesting (like from Slayer) they pretty much only miss 1 power known and some power points. Their maximum power level continues to advance without skipping a beat. Though the endurance and versatility losses would be a setback for a true manifester, they are not a big deal for someone with warrior aspects. The warrior aspects greatly increase a character's endurance, more than enough to compensate for the lost PP's. The versatility loss is similarly mitigated by the presence of other skills. (In fact, I could see this working remarkably well for a Cerebremancer (or, better yet, a Psychic Theurge) as well...hmm...). This is very spiffy for a lot of dual- or triple-threat psychics. Plus, an Ardent makes a wonderfully flavored Jedi base ;) I pretty much despise theurgic characters, due to their inviability at low levels. (There are a few exceptions of course, like anima mage). I see Ardent as a good "focused" class, not so much a triple threat class. At best, and Ardent would be a threat and a half (1 part gish, half part mage). Anyways, you're absolutely right about practiced manifestor. That's the sweetest thing I've ever seen, and is a tad broken IMO. I'll be sure to add that to my current and future ardent builds. EDIT: I updated the uber tank build. I dropped the MoI stuff (which would have granted him rend on his claws) in favor of Practiced Manifestor and Tap Mantle (Energy). At fifth level he is able to bust out energy burst, at the same time a wizard would be getting fire ball. Given that he likes to wade into combat anyways, energy burst is perfect for the job. Nothing like a 40' radius energy effect that deals d6+1 damage per manifester level (don't forget you can overchannel!). This guy will take down bosses and their hordes of minions all by himself. It's so beautiful I want to cry.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-21-06, 03:03 AM	Added in another build: "the shock trooper." The only weakness I can see is the lack of any "apocalyptic" 9th level powers. I *could* add the destruction mantle with his 18th level feat, but I thought that form of doom would be more optimal, given his ability to make leap attacks.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-21-06, 04:54 PM	I added in the Soul-infused Gish build. Very powerful at all levels except... oddly enough... FIRST LEVEL! I just don't know how to make it work at that level. If you play this build 1-20 you're just gonna have to suck it up for a level and beat 'em down with your simple weapons. On the plus side you can get a whopping +4 natural armor at first level and +3 deflection bonus to Armor vs. Evil creatures. So, if you don't damage them, you at least won't get hit. Any other suggestions/requests? I'm running out of gish build ideas here...
khayce 04-21-06, 06:16 PM	Hi! This is my first post here, so please be gentle. I don't have any exceedingly creative build. I do, however, have one suggestion. For the Uber Tank build, instead of doing Ardent 6/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5, why not Ranger 1/Ardent 4/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 6? I ask because the Conflict Domain gives weapon focus in a weapon you are already proficient in. If you take Ranger as your first level (and it will pass quite quickly), you are proficient in a martial weapon right from the point you become an Ardent. Greatsword wielder anyone? The 1 level of Ranger means you can enter the +4 BaB prestiege classes sooner, which is always a good reason. Since you're human, the extra base class should not bother you. You don't sacrifice THAT much either. You gain the Track feat, lose one mantle from being a level 5 Ardent, which you can make up for now that you don't have to take Track at level 6. You lose 1 known power and a bit of PP, but you gain the nasty Sanctified Mind Power Resistance at level 6 equal to 5 + your character level (not class level!). Your manifester level is still at 20, thanks to Practised Manifester. You gain 1 BaB overall as well. Otherwise, a very solid build. I might just spring this on my GM one day.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-21-06, 06:30 PM	That's a classic combo to be sure, and is what I use in all my psion-based psi-gish builds. However, I wanted to show the real power of the Ardent by making a build with 18 BAB and 18 ML. My previous record for a psi-gish was 17 BAB and 17 ML (Ranger1/Psion6/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 4). As you can see, getting 18 BAB and 18 ML is quite costly on the feat end of things, which is why I've provided some alternative builds. The shock trooper build has only one required feat (Iron Will), where as the soul-infused gish has no required feats. So it's a trade off, do you want more feat freedom or do you want more BAB and ML? If you're happy with the uber tank's feat selection, I stronly recommend it. The uber tank has the broadest powers known and is quite capable of dealing significant damage. If you like, one can modify the uber tank by removing the claws of the beast power and replacing it with a weapon-related feat. Either way you'll have weapon focus for that weapon. My personal favorite build is the soul-infused gish, who preforms exceptionally well at low levels up through 10th level.
Mucknuggle 04-21-06, 07:57 PM	I'm really liking the uber tank and the shock trooper. Makes me want to play one in a future campaign. GJ on the builds. You should get back to updating your psi-rogue thread though :P
smrtgmp 04-21-06, 09:45 PM	I was thinking an ardent 8/soulknife 2/soulbow 1/slayer 9 could make for an interesting archer psi-gish. You end up with +16 BAB and a 16 ML (20 with practiced manifestor, which meshes oh so well with the ardent) and some great wisdom synergy. For something like this I would go for the conflict, fate and freedom mantles. Creation would be a good choice in a game that ignores the limit on astral constructs. An archer has to love disposable blockers.
Mucknuggle 04-21-06, 09:59 PM	Wouldn't you suffer from lack of enhancements on your soul weapon?
smrtgmp 04-21-06, 10:04 PM	you could add enhancement bonuses via metaphysical weapons, but yeah, you wouldnt be able to pick up things like collission and the like. But when you have your wis mod to hit and damage in addition to the extra hit and damage bonuses from metaphysical weapon and offensive precognition/prescience, you could dish out quite a bit of damage per arrow with a high rate of success. Dont get me wrong. I'm not saying its the worlds most powerful build. I just think it would be fun.
Alratan 04-22-06, 07:25 AM	I suppose the temporal reiteration power makes a warforged psi-gish build possible, using the Magic mantle's UMD skill to cast divine power and heroics from wands combined with metamind to infintely extend them
Alratan 04-22-06, 09:56 AM	Another thought. Would a Ardent with two levels of Chameleon be able to learn powers from any mantle (as a secondary mantle) by choosing tap mantle as its bonus feat on the day it learnt the new power. In all the descriptions of mantles it only says that a mantle is required to learn a new power, not to cast it (otherwise Expanded Knowledge wouldn't work). This frees up loads of feats for a Ardent, but at the cost of two non-manifesting levels, a feat, and some quite tough cross-skill requirements.
midaro 04-22-06, 10:05 AM	Just some more skeletons...defining Psi-Gish as BAB 16, ML 17 (at minimum). Warning: Obviously these characters are not all organised in optimal class order! PRE-COMPLETE PSIONIC: 1. Psion 8/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 3: BAB 16, ML 18 (now inferior to option 8). 2. Ranger 1/Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 4: BAB 17, ML 17 (still comparable to option 9). POST-COMPLETE PSIONIC (ARDENT BASED): 3. Ardent 10/Illithid Slayer 10: BAB 17, ML 19 (niece and neat, my favourite). 4. Ranger 1/Ardent 10/Illithid Slayer 9: BAB 17, ML 18 (compromise for low level Gish playability). 5. Ardent 6/Illithid Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4: BAB 17, ML 19 (awkward skill reqs.). 6. Ardent 6/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5: BAB 18, ML 18 (Tleilaxu_Ghola's build) 7. Ranger 1/Ardent 5/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5: BAB 18, ML 17 (compromise for low level Gish playability). POST-COMPLETE PSIONIC(PSION BASED): 8. Psion (or Erudite) 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10: BAB 16, ML 19 (a good option if you prefer the Psion power list to Ardent mantles). 9. Ranger 1/Psion (or Erudite) 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10: BAB 17, ML 17 (a little inelegant, but quite playable 1-20).
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-22-06, 02:35 PM	Great input midaro! It wasn't until just last night that I noticed anarchic initiate had cleric base attack. Now, as for your chameleon question: That would only help if you used the chamaeleon feat for EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE, not tap mantle. Expanded Knowledge would let you learn a new power every day, where as tap mantle would only work if you were just about to level up. Either way, it's a bit fishy for me. As a DM I would argue that the power you learn via EK is lost unless you have the feat to power it... kind of like losing a pre-req for a feat. I would also argue the same for Tap Mantle. If you don't have the mantle to "tap" why should you have the power? I can see one taking the argument elsewhere, but that's my stand on it. I would never condone that abuse. Ranger 1/Psion (or Erudite) 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10: BAB 17, ML 17 (a little inelegant, but quite playable 1-20) This has 16 BAB (you lose 3 in psion and 1 in Anarchic Initiate.) 7. Ranger 1/Ardent 5/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 5: BAB 18, ML 17 (compromise for low level Gish playability). I don't think that comprimise is necessary, unless you're dying for a feat. Ardent, like cleric, is a very playable class from 1-20. The prestige classes just give it some extra "umph." 8. Psion (or Erudite) 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10: BAB 16, ML 19 (a good option if you prefer the Psion power list to Ardent mantles). This is an excellent build. Good class abilities, good ML, decent BAB. Can't ask for much more than that. Low levels on that build are going to suck a little, but you'd be no worse off than the party wizard. The next build you presented (with the ranger) is probably more playable 1-20. I should add these suggested builds to my "optimal psi-gish" thread (linked in my signature).
smrtgmp 04-22-06, 08:05 PM	defining Psi-Gish as BAB 16, ML 17 (at minimum).Basing the ML on class levels alone seems somewhat outdated when concidering the ardent, given the way they determine the max level of the powers they can know.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-22-06, 08:18 PM	Basing the ML on class levels alone seems somewhat outdated when concidering the ardent, given the way they determine the max level of the powers they can know. It's still useful to know, as their power points are based off of class level ML.
smrtgmp 04-22-06, 08:28 PM	I'm not disputing that. I was just pointing out that they can get 9th level powers without having 17 levels in a manifesting class, which opens up a lot of possibilities.
midaro 04-23-06, 03:57 AM	I'm not disputing that. I was just pointing out that they can get 9th level powers without having 17 levels in a manifesting class, which opens up a lot of possibilities. I've heard this alluded to a few times, but I don't know if I properly understand. Is it because the Ardent table doesn't have a "Maximum Power Level Known" column? Thus allowing the "Practiced Manifester" and "Overchannel" feats, or even "Wild Surge" obtained via Anarchic Initiate to increase your manifester level and therefore the maximum level of your power selection? Is this right? Is there a consensus on this? I've read and reread page 7 and I still can't get a handle on it ;)
Fargren 04-23-06, 09:19 AM	I've heard this alluded to a few times, but I don't know if I properly understand. Is it because the Ardent table doesn't have a "Maximum Power Level Known" column? Thus allowing the "Practiced Manifester" and "Overchannel" feats, or even "Wild Surge" obtained via Anarchic Initiate to increase your manifester level and therefore the maximum level of your power selection? Is this right? Is there a consensus on this? I've read and reread page 7 and I still can't get a handle on it ;) Overchanel an wild surge would not work, because they don't give you a higher manifester level, they increse it for the purpose of a particular power. But Practised manifester does work by RAW.
Tsalael 04-24-06, 08:23 AM	This may be a bit much to ask, but can anyone think of a way to fit Binder into the Soul-Infused Gish? Its to serve a concept of mine for a game Ill be in soon.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-24-06, 01:21 PM	That would depend on what you want out of binder. There are no classes that advance both psionics and binding. You'd be best with anima mage. I don't think that more than two levels of binder would be prudent in a psi-gish build. Just replace totemist with binder in the soul infused gish build and replace expanded soulmeld capacity with improved binder (you can take or leave cobalt charge). That'll give you access to 2nd level vestiges.
Tsalael 04-24-06, 03:10 PM	Never mind the binder thing. Decided to go with the build as you wrote it. That said, what eq and feats from flaws would you recommend?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-24-06, 04:42 PM	Flaws give feats only at first level, so your choices are pretty limited. You won't be able to take any psionic feats using the build I have presented at first level, as you won't have any pp. You could throw another incarnum feat in there (like cobalt critical) to get an extra point of essentia to throw around. I'd recommend taking the murky eyed flaw (-2 to ranged attacks) in exchange for something helpful like improved initiative or perhaps track. The later choice would enable you to drop storm disciple in favor of the slayer prestige class. This would allow you to get 17 base attack (totemist2/ardent 5/Slayer 10/ardent 3).
PhoenixInferno 04-24-06, 10:08 PM	Why doesn't your "Shock Trooper" build have Shock Trooper in it...? Get it?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-24-06, 10:52 PM	Probably because I don't have enough open feats... It's a question of whether you want powers or combat feats... usually the powers win out.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-25-06, 12:21 AM	Just a heads up... I can't believe I didn't notice this before: ardents with the time mantle have access to time regression!! (Then only reason I got excited is it might make for a more elegant Terminator build...)
Tsalael 04-27-06, 06:17 PM	Hmm...any ideas on equipment? Thats an essential part of any build, and definitely not my area of expertise.
AngelLemmingThief 04-28-06, 11:47 AM	Just gleaning info from the thread. It seems like an Ardent with Time & Freedom mantles would make a half-decent dip for a Scout or other mobility based character?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-28-06, 01:14 PM	Equipment for an ardent psi-gish is pretty simple... depending on the role you wan to play. I suggest grabbing the heaviest armor you can (so that you can dump your dex stat), get more armor through amulets, rings, etc, and get a good sword. Treat it like you would a fighter. If you want powers with higher DC saves pick up a psionatrix of the school of the power you want to bump up. It will increase the DC save by 1 for the low cost of 8000 gp. To answer your thought about scout/mobility + freedom + time, I would say yes to freedom and no to time. Time has only one good power on it: temporal acceleration. It'd be better to pick up chaos and freedom, because chaos has inconsitant location on it, which kicks arse.
Psyrus 04-28-06, 01:30 PM	To answer your thought about scout/mobility + freedom + time, I would say yes to freedom and no to time. Time has only one good power on it: temporal acceleration. It'd be better to pick up chaos and freedom, because chaos has inconsitant location on it, which kicks arse. Hmm, but Dimension Hop and Inconsistant Location do pretty much the same thing. IL does have more range and costs less if you're jumping more than 10', but if you're only taking a one level dip, the +2 initiative is nice from the Time Mantle. I do like Time Hop and Anticipatory Strike from the Time Mantle, there's nothing like taking two turns in a row when the enemy is getting low on hp.
fendrin 04-28-06, 03:45 PM	AngelLemmingThief was talking about a dip, so the powers available from the mantles are less important than the granted powers. A good dipping mantle's ability will be useful all day long, but the powers can only be used while the char has pp left. From that standpoint, Freedom and Time would make good choices, though I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs, for a scout anyhow. Another mobility build, maybe. Other good dipping mantles are: Conflict (weap. focus) Destruction (Imp. Sunder) Death(expend focus to 'cast' death knell) Elements (great versatility, from extra damage, to fall protection, to swim speed...) Force (like having a Ring of protection +1 whenever you are focused) Light and Darkness (gain or improve lowlight or darkvision) Magic (UMD as a class skill)
psly4mne 04-28-06, 05:18 PM	The problem with the Ardent is that the power list is dependent on class level. If you take PrCs that advance manifesting instead of plain old Ardent levels, you do not continue to gain the class ability Assume Psionic Mantle. Aside from the Tap Mantle feat, you don't gain any more mantles. You do not seem to have taken this into account in you sample builds. If the ability to gain extra mantles at the appropriate levels had been written under the Powers Known heading, your builds would be correct. As is, Assume Psionic Mantle is a separate class feature.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-28-06, 05:38 PM	Please re-read the builds, psly4mne. Most builds only have 4 mantles + 1 or 2 I got via tap mantle. One gets 2 mantles to start, 1 at second level, and 1 at 5th level. This is the reason I always have 5 levels of Ardent in my builds. For example, the Uber tank: Mantles: [Conflict], [Physical], <Natural World>, <Freedom>, <Energy>, <Time>, <Destruction> The square brackets denote primary mantles, the angled brackets denote secondary mantles. The mantles shown are in the order that they were received. Conflict, Physical, Natural World, and Freedom are the four mantles I get from 5 levels of Ardent. Energy, Time, and Destruction are mangles I took the tap mantle feat to get: Feats (in order): Tap Mantle (Energy), (Overchannel), (Weapon Focus [Claws])*, EK(Claws of the Beast), Track, Practiced Manifester, Tap Mantle (Time), Iron will, Tap Mantle (Destruction) *From the conflict mantle Low and behold, there are the culprit feats, which give me more mantles. I believe all the other builds are correct, as I spent a good deal of time pouring over which mantles to choose. Mantle selection is the hardest part of making an Ardent psi-gish.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-28-06, 05:54 PM	Hmm... I re-read your post psly4mne. I think I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure if it is correct. Under the assume psionic mantle section it says: "An ardent chooses a pair of mpsionic mantles at 1st level and assumes one additional mantle at 2nd, 5th, 10th and 15th level. Each mantle provides a list of powers (usually 6 or more) that an ardent can learn as she increases in level." It would seem that your interpretation is supported by this. However, we turn to the powers known section and we find: "At each additional level, and ardent learns one new power from her avilable mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it." While it does say that an ardent must increase in level to learn new powers, this statement is more or less superceded by the section that actually discusses learning new powers. So long as the mantles are "available" for access, one needn't worry about whether they're multiclassing or not... they need only worry that their ML is high enough. You can try to argue the definition of availability, but I doubt you'll get very far. Basically, the ardent uses mantle to make a custom list of powers. I've yet to see good evidence against this claim.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 06:03 PM	I misread the builds. When you wrote "Ardent 1/Fighter 1/Ardent4/Sanctified Mind 6/Storm Disciple 4/Ardent 4," I didn't see a number above 4 next to Ardent and thought you only had 4 levels of Ardent, not noticing that Ardent was written 3 times. I usually write something more like "Ardent 1/Fighter 1/Ardent +4/Sanctified Mind 6/Storm Disciple 4/Ardent +4." I definitely agree with you. The mantle counts in your builds all look good. Sorry for the confusion. :embarrass
Endar45 04-28-06, 08:25 PM	Goodness what a tempting option for a gish this thread makes the Ardent seem... the über tank would be mighty fun to play with if a group needed a primary tank and I was the one who had to fill it (I do so love being able to "cast" something). <sigh> Shame on you, TG. I'm going to have to go out and buy the two psionics books, so it's your fault my fiancée's engagement ring is going to be $100 cheaper now.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-28-06, 08:50 PM	<sigh> Shame on you, TG. I'm going to have to go out and buy the two psionics books, so it's your fault my fiancée's engagement ring is going to be $100 cheaper now. You can get CPsi on Amazon for $18, and almost all the stuff from the XPH is on the SRD. There are some serious downsides to the Ardent Psi-Gish, however. Namely an acute lack of feats and power versatility. They do have a much better access to psywarrior powers than a psion-based gish does, but they lack access to the really nice powers of a psion. It's often times very difficult to get the powers you want. More often then not you'll end up bleeding feats for those nifty powers, and as a result don't have enough feats left over for combat abilities. It's certainly a delicate balance.
midaro 04-29-06, 01:04 AM	There are some serious downsides to the Ardent Psi-Gish, however. Namely an acute lack of feats and power versatility. They do have a much better access to psywarrior powers than a psion-based gish does, but they lack access to the really nice powers of a psion. It's often times very difficult to get the powers you want. More often then not you'll end up bleeding feats for those nifty powers, and as a result don't have enough feats left over for combat abilities. It's certainly a delicate balance. You are absolutely correct. ;) I've been playing with the Psi-Gish concept for a while now, and there is certainly no obvious 'best' option (read: unbalanced ;) ). My attempts seem to tend strongly towards the extremes of "Warrior with lots of PP, but little to do with them" and "Manifester who happens to wear full-plate". Category 1 Ranger 1/Ardent 4/Sanctified Mind 6/Illithid Slayer 9 BAB +19, ML 17, HP 90, Saves 11-8-15. This would be a pleasure to play from Level 1, but ultimately the mantle system is going to prevent this guy really breaking out. (Optimal mantle selection gives me a headache. I think I've got it, then realise I've missed Vigor - for a Gish!). The feat crunch, is probably going to limit the non-psionic combat tactics of this character, to Power Attack with a Greatsword. :) Category 2 Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10 BAB +16, ML 19, HP 75, Saves 6-6-16. Until you take Illithid Slayer (level 9 at earliest) this character is a simple manifester. Afterwards, he's a manifester who looks like a knight, but really can't go toe-to-toe without spending big PPs. Still, he does have big PPs and ultimately I think he's much more powerful that the first build. Very nice for campaigns starting at Level 10+.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-29-06, 01:21 AM	Making a psi-gish, like any gish build is an EXTREMELY delicate balancing act. When I say ardent makes it easier I'm not kidding. An ardent has cleric BAB and full ML progression + full armor proficiencies right out of the can (hence the name of the thread). Power selection for an ardent sucks pretty hard core, but as long as you have these mantles you're on the path to a good gish: *Conflict *Natural World *Freedom *Energy *Physical Those are the ONLY mantles a true combat gish needs. Now to add some actual versatility to the build... well then it becomes rapidly more difficult. In my opinion, an ardent psi-gish will never ever outshine a psion at higher levels, but from levels 1-10 people will wonder why anyone would ever consider using psion as the base class for a gish build. For the gish contest I will submit a psion-based gish, however I hope to ameliorate the low-level problems that are typical of psion-based psi-gishes. Feats are the only thing that's holding me back from submitting it. Trying to cram them all in is maddening.
midaro 04-29-06, 09:53 AM	*Conflict *Natural World *Freedom *Energy *Physical Why Energy ahead of say Destruction (or Time [mid-late lvl] or Fate [low-mid])? I'm very open to persuasion. :D
khayce 04-29-06, 05:11 PM	Category 1 Ranger 1/Ardent 4/Sanctified Mind 6/Illithid Slayer 9 BAB +19, ML 17, HP 90, Saves 11-8-15. This would be a pleasure to play from Level 1, but ultimately the mantle system is going to prevent this guy really breaking out. (Optimal mantle selection gives me a headache. I think I've got it, then realise I've missed Vigor - for a Gish!). The feat crunch, is probably going to limit the non-psionic combat tactics of this character, to Power Attack with a Greatsword. :) Actually, Midaro, I don't think this particular formulation of gish needs that many mantles. Physical Power, Natural World, and Conflict are the ones you'll probably need, plus whatever else you want to throw into the mix. My DM bans shapechanging abilities, so I substitute Natural World for Freedom. Coincidentally, 3 mantles are exactly what this gish gives you off the bat. You can take Force for the Force Screen through a feat, or Energy if you just want to blast, or both if you feel that way inclined. I think the difficulty of an Ardent build is the temptation to want to do everything. It's easier to prioritise what you want done before building the character than after.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-29-06, 05:45 PM	Why Energy ahead of say Destruction (or Time [mid-late lvl] or Fate [low-mid])? I'm very open to persuasion. :D Destruction doesn't really excite me until 11th level (when you get disintegrate), Fate I could take or leave it's only good for the precognition powers, and Time has only one really valuable power: temporal acceleration. Temporal acceleration is so worth it that one should take Expanded Knowledge (Temporal Acceleration) instead of tap mantle time. Why? Because EK actually gives you an extra power known... not the ability to select more powers. Of course, if you're unwilling to wait until 15th level to get the power... then you have to take tap mantle (Time) at 12th level. Energy is the shiznit, because contrary to what so many people on these boards say, direct damage area effect powers are simply nice to have. Especially when you're using psionics. You can specify the energy type, get 1d6+1 damage per ML over a huge area (if you use energy burst). Nothing lays the smack-down quite like energy burst. You can also bump the DC save with the electrical version up by 2. Best of all, you can get this by 5th level! Same time the party wizard gets fireball. With overchannel you should be better at area effect damage than a straight wizard. Now that's what I'm talking about.
Thanatos42 04-29-06, 06:22 PM	Just wanted to point out that since almost all ardent builds end up going into Illithid Slayer (which requires track), 1 ranger/4 ardent is probably better than 5 ardent. The extra feat saved by going ranger can be spent on an extra mantle. Just my 2 cents. I might have to try playing one of these builds sometime!
AngelLemmingThief 05-02-06, 11:06 AM	AngelLemmingThief was talking about a dip, so the powers available from the mantles are less important than the granted powers. A good dipping mantle's ability will be useful all day long, but the powers can only be used while the char has pp left. From that standpoint, Freedom and Time would make good choices, though I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs, for a scout anyhow. Another mobility build, maybe. Other good dipping mantles are: Conflict (weap. focus) Destruction (Imp. Sunder) Death(expend focus to 'cast' death knell) Elements (great versatility, from extra damage, to fall protection, to swim speed...) Force (like having a Ring of protection +1 whenever you are focused) Light and Darkness (gain or improve lowlight or darkvision) Magic (UMD as a class skill) Yeah, I was basically thinking of a 1 or 2 level dip to get the Mantle extras and to qualify for psionic feats. I suppose in theory you could use the dip to help towards Elocater too. Anyway my own shiny copy of CompPsi should be with me soon and I can check for myself :)
Favored Enemy 05-02-06, 02:29 PM	I've heard this alluded to a few times, but I don't know if I properly understand. Is it because the Ardent table doesn't have a "Maximum Power Level Known" column? Thus allowing the "Practiced Manifester" and "Overchannel" feats, or even "Wild Surge" obtained via Anarchic Initiate to increase your manifester level and therefore the maximum level of your power selection? Is this right? Is there a consensus on this? I've read and reread page 7 and I still can't get a handle on it ;) No, I don't think they can use those 9th level powers. 9th level powers have a cost of 17pp. An ardent can use powers that cost equal to or less than his Manifestor Level (his class level if he's a pure ardent.) Practiced Manifestor cannot increase your Manifestor level past your character level. This all boils down to no using 9th level powers without being 17th level.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-02-06, 03:37 PM	Just wanted to point out that since almost all ardent builds end up going into Illithid Slayer (which requires track), 1 ranger/4 ardent is probably better than 5 ardent. The extra feat saved by going ranger can be spent on an extra mantle. Just my 2 cents. I might have to try playing one of these builds sometime! There's the rub Thanatos, Ardent 5 gets you an extra mantle, and you have it for real. Unlike tap mantle, you actually gain the benefits of the mantle (other than the power selection). Maybe Ardent 5/Ranger1 would be better, but you'd lose out on a precious ML.
smrtgmp 05-03-06, 04:02 AM	No, I don't think they can use those 9th level powers. 9th level powers have a cost of 17pp. An ardent can use powers that cost equal to or less than his Manifestor Level (his class level if he's a pure ardent.) Practiced Manifestor cannot increase your Manifestor level past your character level. This all boils down to no using 9th level powers without being 17th level.Your character level has to be 17th or higher. If you add practiced manifestor to an ardent 16/x4, he has a ML of 20, which would allow him to spend up to 20pps on any given power. Hence, you dont actually need 17 levels in a class to get access to 9th level powers via the ardent. If you really want to get down to it, all you really need is 13 levels of ardent (or its equivalent), so long as you have practiced manifestor and 17 or more character levels.
RendakorRahn 05-03-06, 04:14 PM	GAH! Why does this class rock so hard!? I thought i finally had my build for the competition done, then I go buy CompPsi and now i just have to have this class in there.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-03-06, 04:52 PM	Just try going through the whole build process. I tried to make an Ardent psi-gish for the contest, but it just didn't stand up to the psion version that I made. Maybe I didn't give it a good enough effort... the thing that really held me back was the lack of power diversity. Other than that the Ardent is really solid. In a real campaign I'd play an ardent psi-gish over a psion psi-gish any day, simply because it's so much better a low levels. But if I started off at 10th level, the psion wins hands down. I'd love to see you prove me wrong though. I just haven't had the time to pour over the Ardent mantles and feat combos to make an uber build worthy of the contest.
primetimekiller 05-10-06, 08:27 AM	i got a question: Powers learned from "secondary" mantles (gained later) cannot exceed powers known from primary mantles in any one mantle. does this mean both of my mantles count together or are they separate? example powers from first primary mantle: 8 powers from second primary mantle: 1 powers from first secondary mantle: 1 <- can i tale another power from secondary mantels or what? whats the limit for secondary mantles powers at this point? 1? 8? or even 9? could someone explain this to me?
Psyrus 05-15-06, 08:05 PM	i got a question: does this mean both of my mantles count together or are they separate? example powers from first primary mantle: 8 powers from second primary mantle: 1 powers from first secondary mantle: 1 <- can i tale another power from secondary mantels or what? whats the limit for secondary mantles powers at this point? 1? 8? or even 9? could someone explain this to me? If your second primary mantle only has one power selected, then you can only have one power in any of your secondary mantles. The Ardent does need a few more powers known...
Psyrus 05-15-06, 08:11 PM	Just try going through the whole build process. I tried to make an Ardent psi-gish for the contest, but it just didn't stand up to the psion version that I made. I had the same problem. I made several attempts, but every Ardent character I made was outdone by a Psion/Arachic Initiate. The psion base will generally give you two extra feats and many more powers known. The only character that I was able to make better as an Ardent in one the heavily multiclassed. With Practiced Manifester allowing you to select higher level powers comes in handy. It looks like a Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge might not be a bad build. Being able to cast 9th level cleric spells and manifesting 9th level powers. :schemes: Hmm, maybe Cleric 3/Ardent3/Theurge10/Cleric PrC4. Now I just have to find the right PrC.
Meek 06-02-06, 10:02 AM	What would be a good stat array for an Ardent psi-gish, though? I want something akin to one, using 32 Point Buy at Level 2. So far, I have 14 Str, 12 Dex, 16 Con, 08 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Cha (I'd like a cohort sometime :plotting: ). I'm also a bit confused on what starting powers I should choose. My mantles are Freedom, Physical Power and Mental Power, mix of roleplay/power choices. I also have Tap Mantle for energy. However, since the party only has 1 blaster (a Psion) and already has two combat guys (Soulknives), I thought I could do a mix of both right off the bat, which sounds more useful. Suboptimal probably, but I've never been a spotlight hog ;)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-03-06, 01:00 AM	I prefer having only one 16 stat (in the mental stat) and the rest at 14 or below for 32 point buy in a gish build. So, STR 14, CON 14, DEX 14, Wis 16, INT 12, CHA 8 As for powers to choose... I've listed the powers that I think are important for an ardent psi-gish in the Original Post of this thread. Each build has their powers listed in the order that they were received. If I were you, I'd drop physical in favor of conflict, which seems to be the most powerful gish mantle IMO.
josephk 06-03-06, 07:31 AM	It's pretty hard for sure, to go without psionic lion's charge as a gish, when it is available (conflict mantle). I really like the guardian mantle as well. Decent powers all the way up, and more importantly access to dampen power. Turning a that horrible 16d10 red dragon breath(or fireball or whatever) into a weak 16 points of damage is solid gold (and for only 4 more pps, you can help out anyone in the area of effect). It's not a bad granted power either, in case you need to save a injured friend from certain death (although it probably wont be useful -that- often).
Zerieon 06-03-06, 05:56 PM	Uhm... Maybe a stupid question but... why a sanctified mind? You lose another ML and you already have immunity to mind affecting from Slayer's levels... Edit: Btw, wouldn't Expanded Knowledge: Fission would be a great addition for these builds? I mean... You can flank an enemy on your own hehe :D And maybe Pain and Suffering Mantle instead Destruction? (Emp Transfer Hostile to heal a bit and Empathic Feedback ain't bad right ?...)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-03-06, 08:47 PM	Uhm... Maybe a stupid question but... why a sanctified mind? You lose another ML and you already have immunity to mind affecting from Slayer's levels... Edit: Btw, wouldn't Expanded Knowledge: Fission would be a great addition for these builds? I mean... You can flank an enemy on your own hehe :D And maybe Pain and Suffering Mantle instead Destruction? (Emp Transfer Hostile to heal a bit and Empathic Feedback ain't bad right ?...) Sanctified Mind has fighter base attack progression, which I think merits another loss of ML. You just can't beat 18 ML & 18 BAB. I've yet to see a 19/19 build, which would be quite impressive. Fission is ok, but I'm not a big fan of it. Pain & Suffering would be a pretty solid choice, especially since pain-affinity field is on the list IIRC.
Zerieon 06-03-06, 09:59 PM	uhm what does IIRC mean?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-03-06, 10:20 PM	If I Remember Correctly = IIRC.
Zerieon 06-04-06, 03:29 AM	yup it is. And Affinity Field, Pain combined with, let's say... Improved Overchannel (epic) while casting Empathic Transfer Hostile would be a great combo in your epic levels... And Psychofeedback could really hurt...
AngelWings 06-18-06, 11:39 AM	I've heard this alluded to a few times, but I don't know if I properly understand. Is it because the Ardent table doesn't have a "Maximum Power Level Known" column? Thus allowing the "Practiced Manifester" and "Overchannel" feats, or even "Wild Surge" obtained via Anarchic Initiate to increase your manifester level and therefore the maximum level of your power selection? Is this right? Is there a consensus on this? I've read and reread page 7 and I still can't get a handle on it ;) Nope...nope nope nope. There isn't any Maximum power level known column ;) However, in the Ardent text, it is clearly written on page 7 that you can't cast a power which has more power than your ARDENT level (they state a 5th level Ardent for example). So .... sorry guys :(
josephk 06-18-06, 11:53 AM	The text doesnt say anything about your ARDENT level. It simply says that you must be able to manifest a power, to chose it. The example is a 5th level ardent, but examplifies the point about chosing powers regardless of class. On the contrary the only rule that is explicited is that she must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it then an example with th 5th level ardent, ardent level is never mentioned. Without the "maximum power known" the only thing that determines which power you can manifest, is your manifester level.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-18-06, 03:42 PM	I don't know what's so confusing about the ardent. Here's how it works: 1. All psionic powers have a listed power point cost. This cost is known as the "base" cost. 2. An ardent can add a power to his power known if and only if he is able to manifest a power of that base cost. 3. Any psionic class, ardent included, may not spend more pp than they have manifester levels. So if you have an Ardent 1/Fighter 4/Ardent 1, and he took practiced manifester at first level (or third level), he would be able to acquire a 3rd level power for his 2nd power known, despite the fact that he only has 2 ardent levels. This is somewhat unsettling for some people, but given the limited scope of an Ardent's power selection and the limited pp that a 2nd level ardent would have I don't think this is problematic. Now, I do hold the opinion that overchannel would not work with this. Sure you can use overchannel to manifest a power at a higher ML, but I would not allow this ti give you access to higher level powers. This is more a practical designation than anything else. It may be RAW to use overchannel and the ardent to gain quick access to higher level powers faster, but as a DM I would never allow such cheese.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 06-18-06, 04:00 PM	I don't know what's so confusing about the ardent. Here's how it works: 1. All psionic powers have a listed power point cost. This cost is known as the "base" cost. 2. An ardent can add a power to his power known if and only if he is able to manifest a power of that base cost. 3. Any psionic class, ardent included, may not spend more pp than they have manifester levels. So if you have an Ardent 1/Fighter 4/Ardent 1, and he took practiced manifester at first level (or third level), he would be able to acquire a 3rd level power for his 2nd power known, despite the fact that he only has 2 ardent levels. This is somewhat unsettling for some people, but given the limited scope of an Ardent's power selection and the limited pp that a 2nd level ardent would have I don't think this is problematic. Now, I do hold the opinion that overchannel would not work with this. Sure you can use overchannel to manifest a power at a higher ML, but I would not allow this ti give you access to higher level powers. This is more a practical designation than anything else. It may be RAW to use overchannel and the ardent to gain quick access to higher level powers faster, but as a DM I would never allow such cheese.
Surreal 12-20-06, 03:51 AM	So it's late and I'm well past my bedtime and the brain is all into the fuzziness again; what better time to venture into territory that I don't fully understand? I was reading the Ardent/Uncarnate build by HaikenEdge in the Ardent build compendium (link) and was thinking why stop with the incorporeality? All we'd have to do is slap on the Necropolitan template and we're halfway to being a true ghost (plus both Str and Con are dump stats). This opens up a couple feats and prestige classes from Libris Mortis that require being undead and incorporeal... but unfortunately I just can't think about how to use that effectively. The Empowered Ability Damage looks nice, but where to get a (Su) ability drain/damage? The Lurking Terror and Ephemeral Examplar are ok... but have wasted abilities. With Practiced Manifester, this lets us juggle something in with Ardent for those first 5 levels. I was looking towards Incarnum (w/undead meldshaper for Wisdom synergy of course), but nothing there really stood out aside from maybe snagging Shedu Crown or Soulspeaker Circlet for telepathy (and then Mindsight (LoM)). Maybe some levels of Swordsage? I still don't have ToB, but I hear that stuff is pretty popular, plus I believe the Swordsage lets you add Wis to AC. I'm sure there has to be something that can be done with the whole undead thing, but I'm at a loss. Anyone? Aw heck, maybe just throw on Pyrokineticist 5 at the end, so I can be a flaming undead ghost :) Hmm, though maybe the Incarnum soulmeld could do that too. Argh, rambling, bedtime now.
TimeDaemon 12-20-06, 02:37 PM	So I have been thinking about this a little bit lately, and this is what I have come up with. Ardent has the whole practiced manifestor thing that lets you fudge your ardent level and add in other classes without much loss. Swordsage has the whole ss level + 1/2 all other levels to determine initiator level. Plus both of these classes depend on wis for their class abilities. If you took this progression Ard4/SS1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1 you get Ard14/SS6 and with practiced manifestor ML=18, IL13, which gets you 9th level powers and 7th level maneuvers. This build only has +15 BAB, but without any prestige classes. And with the SS manuevers, you get one at each level of SS and you can take one of each level from 2rd to 7th. This progressioncan be improved by taking lv 17 as Ard before SS at lv 18. This gets you 9th lv powers at the same time any other caster/manifestor/initiator can. If only there was a prestige class that allows you to gain full initiator level and near full manifestor level, similar to ruby knight vindicator or jade pheonix mage but for manifestors. Then you could make the build even better. As it stands, a 20 level build without prestige classes that gives you 9th level powers and 7th level maneuvers is perty great.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-20-06, 03:51 PM	So it's late and I'm well past my bedtime and the brain is all into the fuzziness again; what better time to venture into territory that I don't fully understand? I was reading the Ardent/Uncarnate build by HaikenEdge in the Ardent build compendium (link) and was thinking why stop with the incorporeality? All we'd have to do is slap on the Necropolitan template and we're halfway to being a true ghost (plus both Str and Con are dump stats). This opens up a couple feats and prestige classes from Libris Mortis that require being undead and incorporeal... but unfortunately I just can't think about how to use that effectively. The Empowered Ability Damage looks nice, but where to get a (Su) ability drain/damage? The Lurking Terror and Ephemeral Examplar are ok... but have wasted abilities. With Practiced Manifester, this lets us juggle something in with Ardent for those first 5 levels. I was looking towards Incarnum (w/undead meldshaper for Wisdom synergy of course), but nothing there really stood out aside from maybe snagging Shedu Crown or Soulspeaker Circlet for telepathy (and then Mindsight (LoM)). Maybe some levels of Swordsage? I still don't have ToB, but I hear that stuff is pretty popular, plus I believe the Swordsage lets you add Wis to AC. I'm sure there has to be something that can be done with the whole undead thing, but I'm at a loss. Anyone? Aw heck, maybe just throw on Pyrokineticist 5 at the end, so I can be a flaming undead ghost :) Hmm, though maybe the Incarnum soulmeld could do that too. Argh, rambling, bedtime now. You know... isn't there a psionic item which grants one powers known? Some kalashtar only thing from eberron, if memory serves. Anyways, think of the implications that has for an ardent! The problem with Uncarnate is the fact that you lose so many ML. Ardent allows you max power level known be tied solely to your ML, which opens up practiced manifester abuse. Now, the only downside is Ardents only get 1 power known per level, so even if they are able to buy powers of a level equal to a psion of their level, they're still not getting new powers known when they miss a level. Add in those mysterious items, whose name escapes me, and you may just have a winner!
Surreal 12-20-06, 04:24 PM	If only there were something like the Heirophant (for spell power) or Green Star Adept for psionics. Added stuff like that to the Ardent that would be pretty nice. I still can't think of anything to do with an undead uncarnate ardent though. I'll have to sift through some Kalashtar stuff. I do like the idea of Totemist though, just to be some ghostly beastly thing.
Surreal 12-21-06, 02:07 AM	I still can't think of anything to do with an undead uncarnate ardent though. I'll have to sift through some Kalashtar stuff. I do like the idea of Totemist though, just to be some ghostly beastly thing. Ooh, just found the perfect PrC: Quori Nightmare (Races of Eberron). It might not be the most powerful option, but a Necropolitan Ardent/Uncarnate/Quori Nightmare makes you basically a ghost who induces nightmares and kills with a touch.
FallFromGrace 12-21-06, 05:38 AM	So I have been thinking about this a little bit lately, and this is what I have come up with. Ardent has the whole practiced manifestor thing that lets you fudge your ardent level and add in other classes without much loss. Swordsage has the whole ss level + 1/2 all other levels to determine initiator level. Plus both of these classes depend on wis for their class abilities. If you took this progression Ard4/SS1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1/Ard+2/SS+1 you get Ard14/SS6 and with practiced manifestor ML=18, IL13, which gets you 9th level powers and 7th level maneuvers. This build only has +15 BAB, but without any prestige classes. And with the SS manuevers, you get one at each level of SS and you can take one of each level from 2rd to 7th. This progressioncan be improved by taking lv 17 as Ard before SS at lv 18. This gets you 9th lv powers at the same time any other caster/manifestor/initiator can. How interesting, I was just pondering the idea of an ardent/swordsage build today! I want to throw Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) in. My question is, can Ardent 1 / Swordsage 4 / Ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester learn the 3rd level power that is needed for PWM? Any suggestions on padding for an Ardent 2 / Swordsage 4 / ??? 4 / Psychic Weapon Master 10 build? :)
TimeDaemon 12-25-06, 12:29 PM	See, as far as I know, this is the beauty of Ardent/Practiced Manifetsor. Those levels of swordsage with the practiced manifestor actuall count toward ML, so yes you get 3rd level powers! This is what makes the Ardent/Martial Adept combination so great. They both have "virtual levels" that you can use to make excellent psi-gish characters.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-25-06, 12:44 PM	How interesting, I was just pondering the idea of an ardent/swordsage build today! I want to throw Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) in. My question is, can Ardent 1 / Swordsage 4 / Ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester learn the 3rd level power that is needed for PWM? Any suggestions on padding for an Ardent 2 / Swordsage 4 / ??? 4 / Psychic Weapon Master 10 build? :) Practiced Manifester only counts for maximum level of power you can learn, but you only learn new powers with Ardent levels. So you'd need to go Ardent 1 / Swordsage 4 / Ardent +1, taking Practiced Manifester at level 6 (or earlier) and then using the power you learn at Ardent 2 to learn a 4rd level power.
FallFromGrace 12-25-06, 02:17 PM	Thanks for the advice, TimeDaemon and Dave. Have you got any ideas on what prestige classes can complement such an ardent/swordsage psi-gish build nicely? Is it worth progressing past level 4 in Swordsage? :)