Are Cleric's Lacking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are Cleric's Lacking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KieranBathgate
11-26-06, 06:10 PM I understand the ways of the Cleric and their awesome buffs but can you really customize them?

I am playing a LG Human Cleric of Heironeous with the War and Glory domains right now and I have no idea what PrC to go into. I know for sure that I want to become a Saint. The only PrC that appealed to me in the slightest was the Shadowbane Stalker. The problem with this one is that you lose 3 caster levels :mad:plus 2 for the saint. How can I make up for the lost level? Candle of Invocations and Beads of Karma is a start.

I want to play a combat oriented cleric like every other person but I don't want to do the whole Divine Metamagic/Persistent Spell garbage.

Does anybody have a suitable combat-cleric build that is not totally game breaking? Feat ideas and the like are also more than welcome.

Thanks for all of your help,
K.
Caelic
11-26-06, 06:17 PM Err...what's wrong with Cleric 20?

Seriously--a Cleric 20 with Extend Spell and maybe Quicken Spell will do just fine in combat. Anything you add...prestige classes, DMM, Persistent Spell...is just gravy.

What kind of stats are we looking at? If you have a high Charisma, you might want to invest in Divine Might. If your Dex is high, you might want to go weapon-and-shield and enhance them with Divine Favor, Spikes, and Greater Magic Weapon.
KieranBathgate
11-26-06, 06:28 PM Right now I am looking at:
Str 13
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 11
Wis 18
Cha 13

I plan on putting my strength up at 4th and then Con at 8th (not much planned from there).

What was DMM?

I have the Dex for Two-Weapon Fighting which I am very interested in doing. Animated Shield when I get the money.

As for feats: Disciple of the Sun (lots of undead), Extend Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Divine Justice (PHBII).

I thought the Saint was a great addition to the Cleric...good or bad?
ChristopherGroves
11-26-06, 06:31 PM You can become a saint after you die ... don't take the caster level loss. ;-) I say stick w/ Cleric (or its equivalent).

If you go to PrCs, dip for a better mix of abilities.

Divine Metamagic is nice, but as mentioned it's gravy. Quickened Spell works pretty well on its own and it's SRD. A few metamagic rods of extend and you're in serious business and you're not touching Nightsticks and Divine Metamagic.

You can do alot of flavor with simple spell selection. Want flavor? Take alot of the PHB2 immediate spells or the SpC swift-action spells.

Otherwise Divine Might, Divine Power, Brambles and Greater Magic Weapon can make your quarterstaff into a monstrosity. Add in Power Attack and the divine feats that you can stack and beat people into a pulp ... then heal your party afterwards.
Ikeren
11-26-06, 07:35 PM Dip contemplative for the bonus domain.
Two levels of divine orcale gives evasion in full-plate.
See if your DM will let you change Radiant Servant of Pelor to Radiant Servant of ________ and dip that. Or take 10 levels of it. It gives full martial weapon proficiencies. I don't know why, but it does, so...

And core-cleric 20 with nothing but buffing and meleeing stuff is still really strong.
KieranBathgate
11-26-06, 07:47 PM Ikeren, I was just considering the Contemplative as an option. I like the idea, because I love domains. I don't need the weapon proficiency because I am 2 wpn fighting with longswords (War domain- Heironeous).

I really like the Divine Oracle--best suggestion yet! That is exactly how I pictured my character to be...the very alert kind. Thanks a lot.

Would the Saint be a good idea (the AC is so good with it) for a fighting cleric. I could negate the -2 CL with a Candle of Invocations (only for 4 hours though)
Caelic
11-26-06, 07:51 PM It depends. If anything's worth the loss of two levels, Saint is; I'm just not sure anything's worth the loss of two levels.

Candle of Invocation will make up for the CL, but not the lost spells. You'll still be lagging behind the other caster levels in the party by a full level of spells, and that hurts.
KieranBathgate
11-26-06, 08:01 PM If you read the candle of invocations: "He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn."

Wouldn't this mean that I am effectively two level higher for those 4 hours?
Ikeren
11-26-06, 10:01 PM I don't need the weapon proficiency because I am 2 wpn fighting with longswords (War domain- Heironeous).

2 weapon fighting with longswords makes very, very little sense from an optimization standpoint. Greatsword wins hands down. Or sword and shield.

But even if you have your main proficiency covered, you never know when your weapon will get sundered and the nearest thing is a +4 Greatclub.

Also, usually having a single basic ranged weapon as backup makes sense. What works better: A light crossbow, a sling, or a composite longbow +x

Trust me. Adding a few martial weapons proficiencies is always optimal. Make the extra domain sun, dip RSo(Deity).
Caelic
11-26-06, 10:24 PM If you read the candle of invocations: "He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn."

Wouldn't this mean that I am effectively two level higher for those 4 hours?

Hmm. So it does. Even so, 8,400 gp per day to negate your CL penalty is going to get awfully expensive awfully quickly.
Hanniball
11-26-06, 10:26 PM I know for sure that I want to become a Saint. The only PrC that appealed to me in the slightest was the Shadowbane Stalker. The problem with this one is that you lose 3 caster levels

If you decide to go Saint, definitely don't lose any more caster levels. You'll want access to 9th level spells for sure, and if you want to dip Heirophant for Divine Reach you'll still get 9th level spells at CL 18. Just be sure to keep in mind the Saint's 3 exalted feat requirement. Intuitive Attack seems useful here.

I want to play a combat oriented cleric like every other person but I don't want to do the whole Divine Metamagic/Persistent Spell garbage.

What about Divine Metamagic: Quicken?

As for feats: Disciple of the Sun (lots of undead), Extend Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Divine Justice (PHBII).

I see that you are currently playing this character. Can these feats be altered at all? What level are you currently? Oversized TWF is a fairly sub-optimal choice and could easily be replaced with Divine Spell Power for a possible +4 caster level.

It depends. If anything's worth the loss of two levels, Saint is; I'm just not sure anything's worth the loss of two levels.

I'd say Saint is one of the very few options that are worth the CL loss, especially with LA buyoff (a fairly commonly used optional rule). Of course, it's on a case-for-case basis that I would agree it's definitely worth it.

Either way...just my 2 cp
nittanytbone
11-27-06, 10:26 AM TWF is usually quite poor for most clerics.

It is feat-intensive: Clerics don't have many extra feats to throw around on the expensive TWF chain or on the sword & shield feats from PHB2.
It is DEX-intensive: Clerics are stat dependent, and dex is one of their few dump stats. To qualify for Greater and Improved TWF, you need even higher dex. Also, unless you get it via a domain, clerics don't get access to the Cat's Grace buff.
It is Reliant on Bonus Damage: The only bonus damage clerics get is Divine Favor (+1/3 levels), Divine Might (with high charisma), and greater magic weapon. Without sneak attack dice, ranger favored enemy, etc. the damage output is subpar.

If you can mix your stats up, I'd swap dex and str. You use STR to hit, for damage, and to carry. In full plate mail, you won't notice the difference between 13 and 15 dex -- its just +1 to initiative to you.

Be a cleric of Kord with a greatsword for maximum damage (use power attack, too).

If you want the LG Heironious thing, sword & shield is still not bad. Get Armbands of Might (+2 damage when you power attack for -2 or more) and your power attack is still quite efficient. Damage is a bit less, but you have the option to pick up a buckler if needed to boost AC. Improved Buckler Defense might be handy here.

There's a PrC in Complete Divine for warriors of Heironious with longsword buffs, but as I recall its 1/2 casting, so that sucks. If you go for that, think of yourself as a paladin-martial warrior, NOT a primary caster. Practiced Spellcaster (feat) can help with lost caster levels, but not spell levels.

The only ways to truely screw up your cleric are:
-Lost caster levels (and thus being behind on spells)
-Level Adjust (EXCEPT maybe with Saint, maybe)
-WIS less than 15

So you're in good shape :)
PonTelon
11-27-06, 12:32 PM Just so you know, to get the Candles to go 24 hours it would cost you 50,400 gold a day. Not worth it in my opinion.
Timespike
11-27-06, 12:46 PM And you're not looking at Fist of Raziel why?
Endarire
11-27-06, 04:34 PM Can you wish for feats? You can call an efreet with that candle.

-EE
KieranBathgate
11-27-06, 05:36 PM Okay...a lot to comment on here.

Firstly, I misread the Candle of Invocations; I was under the impression that it wasn't destroyed after the 4 hours. My bad.

Right now, I have great ability scores so I do have the option to through them around a bit. I have started playing and right now I am Human Cleric 4 of Heironeous. My DM allowed me to completely change my character around, that is why I came here. Human, Heironeous, and Saint is a must. Other than that...I am up for anything.

I was very partial to the TWF but if somebody as some other great idea then that would be awesome.

I do plan on paying off the LA of the Saint.

I like the idea of getting Divine Metamagic: Quicken but I doubt that I have enough Turn uses per day. I have a 13 in CHA right now and will be getting +4 for Saint. Any suggestions besides Nightsticks?

Any other combat ideas would be great; what do other people go that have been good in the past?
nittanytbone
11-27-06, 08:13 PM Well, you're pretty much stuck with a longsword, unless your DM will let you swap the War Domain power for MWP: Greatsword.

So, stick with Sword and Shield (well, buckler). Power Attack with Armbands of Might is quite effective, and Improved Buckler Defense will let you retain your defense when you do need to put both hands on that bad boy for nice damage output.

With your buffed charisma at Saint time you'll get nice mileage out of Divine Feats -- whether it be Divine Metamagic (Persistent, Quicken, Extend always favorites); Divine Might, Shield, and Vigor could also be useful.

I'd switch Str and Dex as I mentioned above as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KieranBathgate 11-26-06, 06:10 PM	I understand the ways of the Cleric and their awesome buffs but can you really customize them? I am playing a LG Human Cleric of Heironeous with the War and Glory domains right now and I have no idea what PrC to go into. I know for sure that I want to become a Saint. The only PrC that appealed to me in the slightest was the Shadowbane Stalker. The problem with this one is that you lose 3 caster levels :mad:plus 2 for the saint. How can I make up for the lost level? Candle of Invocations and Beads of Karma is a start. I want to play a combat oriented cleric like every other person but I don't want to do the whole Divine Metamagic/Persistent Spell garbage. Does anybody have a suitable combat-cleric build that is not totally game breaking? Feat ideas and the like are also more than welcome. Thanks for all of your help, K.
Caelic 11-26-06, 06:17 PM	Err...what's wrong with Cleric 20? Seriously--a Cleric 20 with Extend Spell and maybe Quicken Spell will do just fine in combat. Anything you add...prestige classes, DMM, Persistent Spell...is just gravy. What kind of stats are we looking at? If you have a high Charisma, you might want to invest in Divine Might. If your Dex is high, you might want to go weapon-and-shield and enhance them with Divine Favor, Spikes, and Greater Magic Weapon.
KieranBathgate 11-26-06, 06:28 PM	Right now I am looking at: Str 13 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 11 Wis 18 Cha 13 I plan on putting my strength up at 4th and then Con at 8th (not much planned from there). What was DMM? I have the Dex for Two-Weapon Fighting which I am very interested in doing. Animated Shield when I get the money. As for feats: Disciple of the Sun (lots of undead), Extend Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Divine Justice (PHBII). I thought the Saint was a great addition to the Cleric...good or bad?
ChristopherGroves 11-26-06, 06:31 PM	You can become a saint after you die ... don't take the caster level loss. ;-) I say stick w/ Cleric (or its equivalent). If you go to PrCs, dip for a better mix of abilities. Divine Metamagic is nice, but as mentioned it's gravy. Quickened Spell works pretty well on its own and it's SRD. A few metamagic rods of extend and you're in serious business and you're not touching Nightsticks and Divine Metamagic. You can do alot of flavor with simple spell selection. Want flavor? Take alot of the PHB2 immediate spells or the SpC swift-action spells. Otherwise Divine Might, Divine Power, Brambles and Greater Magic Weapon can make your quarterstaff into a monstrosity. Add in Power Attack and the divine feats that you can stack and beat people into a pulp ... then heal your party afterwards.
Ikeren 11-26-06, 07:35 PM	Dip contemplative for the bonus domain. Two levels of divine orcale gives evasion in full-plate. See if your DM will let you change Radiant Servant of Pelor to Radiant Servant of ________ and dip that. Or take 10 levels of it. It gives full martial weapon proficiencies. I don't know why, but it does, so... And core-cleric 20 with nothing but buffing and meleeing stuff is still really strong.
KieranBathgate 11-26-06, 07:47 PM	Ikeren, I was just considering the Contemplative as an option. I like the idea, because I love domains. I don't need the weapon proficiency because I am 2 wpn fighting with longswords (War domain- Heironeous). I really like the Divine Oracle--best suggestion yet! That is exactly how I pictured my character to be...the very alert kind. Thanks a lot. Would the Saint be a good idea (the AC is so good with it) for a fighting cleric. I could negate the -2 CL with a Candle of Invocations (only for 4 hours though)
Caelic 11-26-06, 07:51 PM	It depends. If anything's worth the loss of two levels, Saint is; I'm just not sure anything's worth the loss of two levels. Candle of Invocation will make up for the CL, but not the lost spells. You'll still be lagging behind the other caster levels in the party by a full level of spells, and that hurts.
KieranBathgate 11-26-06, 08:01 PM	If you read the candle of invocations: "He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn." Wouldn't this mean that I am effectively two level higher for those 4 hours?
Ikeren 11-26-06, 10:01 PM	I don't need the weapon proficiency because I am 2 wpn fighting with longswords (War domain- Heironeous). 2 weapon fighting with longswords makes very, very little sense from an optimization standpoint. Greatsword wins hands down. Or sword and shield. But even if you have your main proficiency covered, you never know when your weapon will get sundered and the nearest thing is a +4 Greatclub. Also, usually having a single basic ranged weapon as backup makes sense. What works better: A light crossbow, a sling, or a composite longbow +x Trust me. Adding a few martial weapons proficiencies is always optimal. Make the extra domain sun, dip RSo(Deity).
Caelic 11-26-06, 10:24 PM	If you read the candle of invocations: "He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn." Wouldn't this mean that I am effectively two level higher for those 4 hours? Hmm. So it does. Even so, 8,400 gp per day to negate your CL penalty is going to get awfully expensive awfully quickly.
Hanniball 11-26-06, 10:26 PM	I know for sure that I want to become a Saint. The only PrC that appealed to me in the slightest was the Shadowbane Stalker. The problem with this one is that you lose 3 caster levels If you decide to go Saint, definitely don't lose any more caster levels. You'll want access to 9th level spells for sure, and if you want to dip Heirophant for Divine Reach you'll still get 9th level spells at CL 18. Just be sure to keep in mind the Saint's 3 exalted feat requirement. Intuitive Attack seems useful here. I want to play a combat oriented cleric like every other person but I don't want to do the whole Divine Metamagic/Persistent Spell garbage. What about Divine Metamagic: Quicken? As for feats: Disciple of the Sun (lots of undead), Extend Spell, Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and Divine Justice (PHBII). I see that you are currently playing this character. Can these feats be altered at all? What level are you currently? Oversized TWF is a fairly sub-optimal choice and could easily be replaced with Divine Spell Power for a possible +4 caster level. It depends. If anything's worth the loss of two levels, Saint is; I'm just not sure anything's worth the loss of two levels. I'd say Saint is one of the very few options that are worth the CL loss, especially with LA buyoff (a fairly commonly used optional rule). Of course, it's on a case-for-case basis that I would agree it's definitely worth it. Either way...just my 2 cp
nittanytbone 11-27-06, 10:26 AM	TWF is usually quite poor for most clerics. It is feat-intensive: Clerics don't have many extra feats to throw around on the expensive TWF chain or on the sword & shield feats from PHB2. It is DEX-intensive: Clerics are stat dependent, and dex is one of their few dump stats. To qualify for Greater and Improved TWF, you need even higher dex. Also, unless you get it via a domain, clerics don't get access to the Cat's Grace buff. It is Reliant on Bonus Damage: The only bonus damage clerics get is Divine Favor (+1/3 levels), Divine Might (with high charisma), and greater magic weapon. Without sneak attack dice, ranger favored enemy, etc. the damage output is subpar. If you can mix your stats up, I'd swap dex and str. You use STR to hit, for damage, and to carry. In full plate mail, you won't notice the difference between 13 and 15 dex -- its just +1 to initiative to you. Be a cleric of Kord with a greatsword for maximum damage (use power attack, too). If you want the LG Heironious thing, sword & shield is still not bad. Get Armbands of Might (+2 damage when you power attack for -2 or more) and your power attack is still quite efficient. Damage is a bit less, but you have the option to pick up a buckler if needed to boost AC. Improved Buckler Defense might be handy here. There's a PrC in Complete Divine for warriors of Heironious with longsword buffs, but as I recall its 1/2 casting, so that sucks. If you go for that, think of yourself as a paladin-martial warrior, NOT a primary caster. Practiced Spellcaster (feat) can help with lost caster levels, but not spell levels. The only ways to truely screw up your cleric are: -Lost caster levels (and thus being behind on spells) -Level Adjust (EXCEPT maybe with Saint, maybe) -WIS less than 15 So you're in good shape :)
PonTelon 11-27-06, 12:32 PM	Just so you know, to get the Candles to go 24 hours it would cost you 50,400 gold a day. Not worth it in my opinion.
Timespike 11-27-06, 12:46 PM	And you're not looking at Fist of Raziel why?
Endarire 11-27-06, 04:34 PM	Can you wish for feats? You can call an efreet with that candle. -EE
KieranBathgate 11-27-06, 05:36 PM	Okay...a lot to comment on here. Firstly, I misread the Candle of Invocations; I was under the impression that it wasn't destroyed after the 4 hours. My bad. Right now, I have great ability scores so I do have the option to through them around a bit. I have started playing and right now I am Human Cleric 4 of Heironeous. My DM allowed me to completely change my character around, that is why I came here. Human, Heironeous, and Saint is a must. Other than that...I am up for anything. I was very partial to the TWF but if somebody as some other great idea then that would be awesome. I do plan on paying off the LA of the Saint. I like the idea of getting Divine Metamagic: Quicken but I doubt that I have enough Turn uses per day. I have a 13 in CHA right now and will be getting +4 for Saint. Any suggestions besides Nightsticks? Any other combat ideas would be great; what do other people go that have been good in the past?
nittanytbone 11-27-06, 08:13 PM	Well, you're pretty much stuck with a longsword, unless your DM will let you swap the War Domain power for MWP: Greatsword. So, stick with Sword and Shield (well, buckler). Power Attack with Armbands of Might is quite effective, and Improved Buckler Defense will let you retain your defense when you do need to put both hands on that bad boy for nice damage output. With your buffed charisma at Saint time you'll get nice mileage out of Divine Feats -- whether it be Divine Metamagic (Persistent, Quicken, Extend always favorites); Divine Might, Shield, and Vigor could also be useful. I'd switch Str and Dex as I mentioned above as well.