Are Dragons Min/Max able??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are Dragons Min/Max able??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wearer of Purple
10-25-04, 12:13 AM I have the Dragon Issue #320 and the Draconomicon.

I am playing a campaign that started in Halruaa (?), and I wanted to play a dragon.

We are 6th level, and my stats are good. I am wondering if (using the Dragon magazine's progression) the dragon class is worth it. I was thinking that the Silver dragon would be the best, as they are the ones most often found in human form.

Is it worth it? And, if so, what could make it even more worth it (feats, items, tactics)?

P.S. The DM does not allow the Dragon Cohort feat, so it is not like there will be a knight with a dragon mount that is more powerful than me :mad: .

Thanks in advance.
punkurself
10-25-04, 02:18 AM sorta on topic, does anyone know where i can buy or download dragon magazines, as i really dont want paper copy but want electronic ones for my growing online collection. And untill i can read the section on being a dragon in the magazine, i'll just say 'your a freak'n dragon, how much more min/max'n do you need?"
Ipsissimus
10-25-04, 12:48 PM IMO playing a dragon as a class/race is really as good as it's player. Remembering that you are indeed a dragon you can use that as leverage with a lot of encounters.

So, it might be a good to be a more social/finesse player. I don't have that issue of Dragon Mag so I can't really say, but I was always partial to Golden Dragons though Silver is more common...not that you being a dragon is "common" so any color within your alignment should be reasonable. Afterall it's Faerun.

As for optimizing, read the Draconomicon and see what you can come up with. I would go for a Caster class personally since Dragons are rather formidable with just their regular abilities...I hate it when we encounter one and they are wearing magical equipment and holding a staff/wand pointed in our general direction.

Fly around, strafe, breath weapon and make sure you don't hit your friends. If dragon cohort isn't available why not take Leadership and gain the servies of a mounted paladin.

Fly by attack, and a bunch of meta breath feats comes to mind.
charlesatan
10-25-04, 01:47 PM Personally, I don't find dragons to be really min/max in the normal sense. I mean caster-level wise, the level adjustment is already hurting your spellcasting no matter how else you see it. Combat-wise, you don't have enough hit points (and BAB) because of the level adjustment. Even the better point of dragons, such as the high Str and Con, are only available at higher levels.

As a player playing a dragon, I'd probably go for my special abilities, which involve either my breath weapon, or perhaps coordinate with the other party members if I have a fear aura or something. And of course, attack from above (i.e. Flyback attack). You'll be decent with melee combat, but in the long run probably not as effective as a character who didn't have your level adjustment (i.e. a 6th-level fighter), so if I were you, I'd probably only engage in melee when I've run out of options (i.e. breath weapon, spellcasting, no room for flyby attack and the like).

If your GM would allow it, perhaps one of the strongest dragons available is the Shadow Dragon (it's near the end of the Monsters section of Draconomicon). Sure, you're not as effective when fighting undead, but that breath weapon of yours that bestows negative levels is really devastating, even at low levels.

And if perhaps you can be persuaded to play a different race but more dragon-flavored, I'd probably go for the dragonkin (available in both Monsters of Faerun and Draconomicon). It's a good race actually with low level adjustment (only +2), but you'll only get to play it at mid-level to high-level range (because it has 7 monstrous HD total, making it an ECL 9 character). When I say a good race, it's a good race for combat-type characters because you get high Str (18 is the average for the race), and you actually get Monstrous HD (fighter BAB, d10 HD).

If not, you can also take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Some of the better builds I've seen involve something like Sorcerer 2/Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple X or Hexblade 5/Dragon Disciple X or Bard 4/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple X, etc.
Dracophile
10-26-04, 06:37 AM I think the best way to get the "dragon experience" is to not play one. :D The level adjustment keeps your character from packing the "oomph" that the dragon reputation suggests. So, unless you want to go the diplomacy angle with your Dragon (as suggested above), try playing a human:

Paladin X/CavalierX: Take the Draconic Cohort feat and you'll have a sidekick dragon more powerful than a PC could be.

Druid 20, Draconic Wildshape feat: Toss the level adjustment out the window and play dragons (up to medium) of your hit die.

Arcane or Psionic Gish, caster level 7: The spells Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph (or Metamorphosis) and, later, Shapechange, are your friends. Again, no LA to worry about.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries: Probably the least attractive option, but gets you Dragon Shapechange.

With these alternatives, not only are you eliminating LA, but you're also getting class abilities that dragons miss as they progress through the Savage Species breakdown.

So use that leadership or wildshape or polymorph and enjoy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wearer of Purple 10-25-04, 12:13 AM	I have the Dragon Issue #320 and the Draconomicon. I am playing a campaign that started in Halruaa (?), and I wanted to play a dragon. We are 6th level, and my stats are good. I am wondering if (using the Dragon magazine's progression) the dragon class is worth it. I was thinking that the Silver dragon would be the best, as they are the ones most often found in human form. Is it worth it? And, if so, what could make it even more worth it (feats, items, tactics)? P.S. The DM does not allow the Dragon Cohort feat, so it is not like there will be a knight with a dragon mount that is more powerful than me :mad: . Thanks in advance.
punkurself 10-25-04, 02:18 AM	sorta on topic, does anyone know where i can buy or download dragon magazines, as i really dont want paper copy but want electronic ones for my growing online collection. And untill i can read the section on being a dragon in the magazine, i'll just say 'your a freak'n dragon, how much more min/max'n do you need?"
Ipsissimus 10-25-04, 12:48 PM	IMO playing a dragon as a class/race is really as good as it's player. Remembering that you are indeed a dragon you can use that as leverage with a lot of encounters. So, it might be a good to be a more social/finesse player. I don't have that issue of Dragon Mag so I can't really say, but I was always partial to Golden Dragons though Silver is more common...not that you being a dragon is "common" so any color within your alignment should be reasonable. Afterall it's Faerun. As for optimizing, read the Draconomicon and see what you can come up with. I would go for a Caster class personally since Dragons are rather formidable with just their regular abilities...I hate it when we encounter one and they are wearing magical equipment and holding a staff/wand pointed in our general direction. Fly around, strafe, breath weapon and make sure you don't hit your friends. If dragon cohort isn't available why not take Leadership and gain the servies of a mounted paladin. Fly by attack, and a bunch of meta breath feats comes to mind.
charlesatan 10-25-04, 01:47 PM	Personally, I don't find dragons to be really min/max in the normal sense. I mean caster-level wise, the level adjustment is already hurting your spellcasting no matter how else you see it. Combat-wise, you don't have enough hit points (and BAB) because of the level adjustment. Even the better point of dragons, such as the high Str and Con, are only available at higher levels. As a player playing a dragon, I'd probably go for my special abilities, which involve either my breath weapon, or perhaps coordinate with the other party members if I have a fear aura or something. And of course, attack from above (i.e. Flyback attack). You'll be decent with melee combat, but in the long run probably not as effective as a character who didn't have your level adjustment (i.e. a 6th-level fighter), so if I were you, I'd probably only engage in melee when I've run out of options (i.e. breath weapon, spellcasting, no room for flyby attack and the like). If your GM would allow it, perhaps one of the strongest dragons available is the Shadow Dragon (it's near the end of the Monsters section of Draconomicon). Sure, you're not as effective when fighting undead, but that breath weapon of yours that bestows negative levels is really devastating, even at low levels. And if perhaps you can be persuaded to play a different race but more dragon-flavored, I'd probably go for the dragonkin (available in both Monsters of Faerun and Draconomicon). It's a good race actually with low level adjustment (only +2), but you'll only get to play it at mid-level to high-level range (because it has 7 monstrous HD total, making it an ECL 9 character). When I say a good race, it's a good race for combat-type characters because you get high Str (18 is the average for the race), and you actually get Monstrous HD (fighter BAB, d10 HD). If not, you can also take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Some of the better builds I've seen involve something like Sorcerer 2/Paladin 4/Dragon Disciple X or Hexblade 5/Dragon Disciple X or Bard 4/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple X, etc.
Dracophile 10-26-04, 06:37 AM	I think the best way to get the "dragon experience" is to not play one. :D The level adjustment keeps your character from packing the "oomph" that the dragon reputation suggests. So, unless you want to go the diplomacy angle with your Dragon (as suggested above), try playing a human: Paladin X/CavalierX: Take the Draconic Cohort feat and you'll have a sidekick dragon more powerful than a PC could be. Druid 20, Draconic Wildshape feat: Toss the level adjustment out the window and play dragons (up to medium) of your hit die. Arcane or Psionic Gish, caster level 7: The spells Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph (or Metamorphosis) and, later, Shapechange, are your friends. Again, no LA to worry about. Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries: Probably the least attractive option, but gets you Dragon Shapechange. With these alternatives, not only are you eliminating LA, but you're also getting class abilities that dragons miss as they progress through the Savage Species breakdown. So use that leadership or wildshape or polymorph and enjoy.