Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FriendoftheDork 04-29-06, 02:14 PM	OK I have never played a druid past 2nd level so I thought I'd as a few pointers of you guys. I searched the CO library but unfortunately everything was based on all scources allowed and common sense not applying. So here are the limitations of the character: 1. PHB only allowed. No MotW, no FR, no XPH. Yet they say druid is the best class even plain core. 2. Permitted races: Goblin, Kobold, Orc, Half-Orc and Hobgoblin. I'm considering a small-sized one such as a goblin so I can ride my animal companion. 3. Starting level: ECL 2. Starting wealth is 900 gp. 4. Character must be part of a mercenary company. Monks are not allowed. This means I must serve some purpose from day 1. 5. Characters are made with 25 point-buy. Ok now I've heard some things already. I will take natural spell at 6th level, it's both fun and effective. I will probably wild shape alot when adventuring. However, I won't get that until 5th level so I need something to keep me going until then. I'm considering taking augment summoning so that despite lack of physical stats I can be effective even at low levels. This should work well with being a goblin wolfrider as well. I won't get it until 3rd level thought, because of the prerequsite of spell focus: conjuration. At the first levels I consider using Shillelagh if medium sized, or summon monster if small sized. Here's the stats I'm thinking of using as a goblin: str 9 dex 16 con 14 int 10 wis 15 cha 6. Thanks in advance for tips.
Taenia 04-29-06, 03:07 PM	Depending on how long you will play you may want to focus on Wis and Con for stats as once you start wild shaping you will get more benefit from them. I like small druids with riding dogs as animal companions. A riding dog can be a fairly effective combatant at the lower levels, dont forget to get him some armor too, studded leather barding isnt too bad. Also dont forget the animal handling skill since it is needed to help with your companion.
FriendoftheDork 04-29-06, 03:17 PM	Depending on how long you will play you may want to focus on Wis and Con for stats as once you start wild shaping you will get more benefit from them. I like small druids with riding dogs as animal companions. A riding dog can be a fairly effective combatant at the lower levels, dont forget to get him some armor too, studded leather barding isnt too bad. Also dont forget the animal handling skill since it is needed to help with your companion. Well atm I'm not even sure we will reach 5th level, but I certainly hope so. Anyway, 15 wis and 14 con is not bad, is it? As for my high dex.. well goblins get it anyway so why not take some advantage of it? +3 AC, Initative and ranged is not bad for 3 levels. And even after that I'll probably be travelling in goblin form on my animal companion or a purchased mount. The 50' speed of a wolf is great for a spellcaster wanting to stay out of melee. Spells: I see that produce flame is nice for a low str goblin, and I can even cast it 120' away some times. Magic stone is not so bad either, 1d6+1 per sling attack is decent at 2nd level for a goblin. I'm still wondering about feats: Should I go for augment summoming or rather mounted combat? Will improved initative be very important?
Gavinfoxx 04-29-06, 04:32 PM	Uhm, they aren't allowing normal races? Are the races you pick going to have racial hit dice and level adjustment or is the DM going to ignore those that do? Those races aren't balanced for PC use at ALL... except for half-orc, which is, of course, a PC race... Also, Core is "Monster Manual, Players Hand Book, Dungeon Master's Guide", not just Player's Handbook... When we say core, we generally mean the races in the PHB, and MAYBE a few from Monster Manual...
FriendoftheDork 04-29-06, 08:36 PM	Uhm, they aren't allowing normal races? Are the races you pick going to have racial hit dice and level adjustment or is the DM going to ignore those that do? Those races aren't balanced for PC use at ALL... except for half-orc, which is, of course, a PC race... Also, Core is "Monster Manual, Players Hand Book, Dungeon Master's Guide", not just Player's Handbook... When we say core, we generally mean the races in the PHB, and MAYBE a few from Monster Manual... That's right, when I said which races were allowed that means everyone else are disallowed. It's a campaign concept. Only PHB feats, skills and classes are allowed. Of course the races are from the MM. Only one of them has level adjustment, the hobgoblin. None of them has racial HDs. The goblin, kobolds, orc and half-orc races are all balanced for play. Some of them seem weak, and spellcasters will be almost unplayable with some of them, but kobold sorcerers, goblin wizards and half-orc clerics are all playable. And the goblin +2 dex, -2 str, -2 cha is suitable for druids anyway. The -2 cha is somewhat offset by +4 move silently and ride and 30' base speed. You may not like the options but I'm sure I can make a tough goblin druid... at least with the help of you optimizers. Now, if only a few more actually responds... cmon you can do better than this?
DocBeard 04-29-06, 09:39 PM	As others have said, focus on wisdom and constitution, in that order. Wisdom for obvious reasons, constitution so you survive (and because your hit points don't change when wild-shaping changes your con modifier any more, so you'll want a high base score). A half-decent intelligence doesn't hurt either, since druids get a decent number of skill points and some nice skills. Charisma probably isn't a priority. Decent strength or dexterity never hurt anybody though, and of the two, I'd probably pick dexterity to focus on, since a druid's armor options (particularly at low levels) are pretty sad; you're not gonna get hold of that wild-enchanted dragonhide full plate +5 on a level 1 character's salary! Also, druids have poor reflex saves, so a bit of a bonus here would be helpful. Yeah, physical stats lose some of their importance to a druid once wild-shaping comes around, but you've got to survive to get there, right? Druids are *extremely* versatile, but you'll probably want to get really good at one thing. I played a very effective summoning-specialist for a while in a mostly-core game (so none of those crazy ALL YOUR SUMMONS GET 5 DIFFERENT TEMPLATES AND HAVE THREE TIMES THEIR USUAL HIT DICE AND OH YEAH THEY'RE IMMUNE TO EVERYTHING feats). Augmented Summoning as soon as possible is the key. (Sadly, its prerequisite, Spell Focus - Conjuration, is almost useless to druids, as there are very few core druid Conjuration spells that have a saving through in the first place. But Augmented Summoning more than makes up for that deficiency.) There's really something to be said for being able to bring a small army to bear (no pun intended, though my druid *did* often use bears :) ) against your foes. Mind you, you don't *need* Augmented Summoning to do this, but as I sad, pick something to specialize in. The beauty of a druid's ability to spontaneously summon is that it lets you prepare a loadout of primarily utility spells without sacrificing your combat capabilities, and druids get some very nice ones. Not that a druid's low-level combat spell options are too shabby, either.
FriendoftheDork 04-29-06, 11:29 PM	As others have said, focus on wisdom and constitution, in that order. Wisdom for obvious reasons, constitution so you survive (and because your hit points don't change when wild-shaping changes your con modifier any more, so you'll want a high base score). A half-decent intelligence doesn't hurt either, since druids get a decent number of skill points and some nice skills. Charisma probably isn't a priority. Decent strength or dexterity never hurt anybody though, and of the two, I'd probably pick dexterity to focus on, since a druid's armor options (particularly at low levels) are pretty sad; you're not gonna get hold of that wild-enchanted dragonhide full plate +5 on a level 1 character's salary! Also, druids have poor reflex saves, so a bit of a bonus here would be helpful. Yeah, physical stats lose some of their importance to a druid once wild-shaping comes around, but you've got to survive to get there, right? Druids are *extremely* versatile, but you'll probably want to get really good at one thing. I played a very effective summoning-specialist for a while in a mostly-core game (so none of those crazy ALL YOUR SUMMONS GET 5 DIFFERENT TEMPLATES AND HAVE THREE TIMES THEIR USUAL HIT DICE AND OH YEAH THEY'RE IMMUNE TO EVERYTHING feats). Augmented Summoning as soon as possible is the key. (Sadly, its prerequisite, Spell Focus - Conjuration, is almost useless to druids, as there are very few core druid Conjuration spells that have a saving through in the first place. But Augmented Summoning more than makes up for that deficiency.) There's really something to be said for being able to bring a small army to bear (no pun intended, though my druid *did* often use bears :) ) against your foes. Mind you, you don't *need* Augmented Summoning to do this, but as I sad, pick something to specialize in. The beauty of a druid's ability to spontaneously summon is that it lets you prepare a loadout of primarily utility spells without sacrificing your combat capabilities, and druids get some very nice ones. Not that a druid's low-level combat spell options are too shabby, either. Well in order to focus more on wis or con I'd need to lower str obviously - my charisma is already dumped to 6. So If I have str 7 dex 16 con 14 int 12 wis 15 cha 6 that is 25 PB. I could go as high as con 15 but that means I would go from dex 16 to 14 without any real benefit. And as you said, 12 int is almost required when I need concentration, handle animal, survival, spot, ride, listen and knowledge nature. And the difference between wis 15 and wis 16 at 2nd level is nothing compared to dex 14 and 16 - which can save my life. I see that wisdom is very important at mid-high level but at low levels I won't be using much spells with saves anyway. I'll use stat gains so I will have 19 wis at 16th level without magic. As for feats I will probably go for augment summuming. Items will be hard though. Leather armors are cheap and not worth having mw (no check penalty). I'll probably want a large shield as well for protection, giving me ac 18 at 2nd level without buffs. Because of my small size my best weapon (scimitar) will be no better than +1 to hit and 1d4-2 (18-20) damage so masterwork is a waste. I'll get a cudgel for shillelagh (club) and a sling, then rely on produce flame for damage (touch attack1d6+2 no str). Then most of my gold go to a wand of cure light wounds (25 charges), some choise scrolls and perhaps a potion or two.
beaver1024 04-30-06, 02:06 AM	Emphasizing on dexterity is not optimal as AC can be obtained other ways through armour and spells. You should optimise wis first then con. When you reach wildshape, your dex will be supplanted anyway.
Gavinfoxx 04-30-06, 03:17 AM	Yea, druids are wisdom then con then int, then (big difference here) everything else... seriously, even core...
FiestFan 04-30-06, 07:19 AM	There's no reason your Druid can't be Medium-sized and still ride his Animal Companion. Horse is a viable Companion, capable at low levels of contributing to combat as much as a generic Fighter. By the time the horse is no longer useful in combat, you'll be able to upgrade to a better Companion.
UMiskatonic 04-30-06, 11:18 AM	Goblins ride wolves, everyone knows that. Take a dog until you can get an offical wolf. One option for goblin druid is to be a ranged combatant. You have a good dex as a goblin, and if you take the archery feats, you'll be in great shape. Point blank and precise are also good with produce flame and magic stone, as you've already noticed. From there, I would focus less on wildshaping, and focus more on mounted combat. You'll be able to qualify for Hospitaler fairly easily. As for feats, Track is a good choice for a druid to take.
FriendoftheDork 04-30-06, 01:34 PM	Ok I know you say dex is more important than con, but what purpose is served by lowering dex to 10 and increasing con from 14 to 16? Will it really matter that much as +3 to ac for 3 levels? Remember I won't sleep in animal form, only use it for combat and travel through dangerous areas. The reason why medium size is bad is that a: half orc is the only option, with penalty to int and b: That we might have to fight underground where the horse is too big. Archers are ok, but if I wanted one I'd go ranger I think, and hobgoblin. Arrows won't help me in bear form, and my lack of str and low bow damage means that archery is not that effective. Hospitaler is not core, besides it's phb only. I tihnk I'll go for summing. Why should I get a riding dog when I can get a wolf?
nittanytbone 04-30-06, 04:07 PM	Race -- Goblin is good. No LA, no penalties to important druid stats (wis, con), and the skill bonuses aren't bad. Good choice. Ability scores -- 25 point buy is pretty rough. Given this low limit, I'd focus on being a wildshaping druid. This makes your natural str and dex pretty much irrelevant once you hit level 5. Thus, the rest of my advice will center on being the best wildshaper that you possibly can. Str 8 (0) -2 = 6 (You won't need str -- you can't use good armor anyways and you'll be relying on your mount/companion to do the heavy lifting) Dex 8 (0) +2 = 10 Con 14 (6) +0 = 14 (Hit Points = Good) Int 14 (6) +0 = 14 (Druids have a good skill list. Might as well use it.) Wis 16 (10) +0 = 16 (Primary casting stat.) Cha 8 (0) -2 = 6 (Would be nice to have good cha, but a luxury.) That uses 22 points. With the remaining three, I'd probably boost Cha +2 (wild empathy isn't totally useless...) and Str +1 (increased carrying capacity). Stat boosts would go into Wisdom and con. Feats The only essential feat is Natural Spell at level 6. There are many other attractive feats. Of note are the SF Conjuration + Augment Summoning path, Craft Wondrous Item (make stuff for your party at 15% off, ***** out your XP, and pocket a lot of cash -- sounds about right for an evil type game), or even Mounted Combat. If I went the Mounted Combat route then I'd be sure to pick out forms that were capable of riding mounts, such as baboons, apes, etc when wildshaping.
FriendoftheDork 04-30-06, 05:37 PM	Race -- Goblin is good. No LA, no penalties to important druid stats (wis, con), and the skill bonuses aren't bad. Good choice. Ability scores -- 25 point buy is pretty rough. Given this low limit, I'd focus on being a wildshaping druid. This makes your natural str and dex pretty much irrelevant once you hit level 5. Thus, the rest of my advice will center on being the best wildshaper that you possibly can. Str 8 (0) -2 = 6 (You won't need str -- you can't use good armor anyways and you'll be relying on your mount/companion to do the heavy lifting) Dex 8 (0) +2 = 10 Con 14 (6) +0 = 14 (Hit Points = Good) Int 14 (6) +0 = 14 (Druids have a good skill list. Might as well use it.) Wis 16 (10) +0 = 16 (Primary casting stat.) Cha 8 (0) -2 = 6 (Would be nice to have good cha, but a luxury.) That uses 22 points. With the remaining three, I'd probably boost Cha +2 (wild empathy isn't totally useless...) and Str +1 (increased carrying capacity). Stat boosts would go into Wisdom and con. Feats The only essential feat is Natural Spell at level 6. There are many other attractive feats. Of note are the SF Conjuration + Augment Summoning path, Craft Wondrous Item (make stuff for your party at 15% off, ***** out your XP, and pocket a lot of cash -- sounds about right for an evil type game), or even Mounted Combat. If I went the Mounted Combat route then I'd be sure to pick out forms that were capable of riding mounts, such as baboons, apes, etc when wildshaping. Ok thank for your tips people. Nice coherent post too. I made my goblin druid with more dex and less int and wis. The difference of 15 and 16 is not that much in the long run, the bonus spell won't matter until 5th level (and by that time I have the stat boost), and 1 less skill point per level, although it meant I have somewhat low survival and heal, I get by. 16 dex has already helped me a great deal for initative, touch attacks, and AC. I did take mounted combat at first, as I think I will get pretty tough summoned monsters at high level even without the augmentation, and will take improved initative at 3rd level, natural spell 6th level. At 9th level I'm considering some metamagic or craft feat, but any suggestions here are welcome. I have used the spell produce flame to good effect against a black bear and zombies we encountered, as it deals ok damage without str mod.
catharz 04-30-06, 06:42 PM	Monster summoning is fairly awful at 1st level unless you have some serious mojo. A full round of casting cor a little critter which only sticks around 1 round is, simply put, bad. Using your animal companion as a mount is much better. If you can have a horse as a companion (I don't recall), a mounted half-orc with a base strength of 14, hide armor, a large shield, and a shillelagh is deadly. With a 25 point buy, S:14=>16, D:10, C:14, I:8=>6, W:14, C:8=>6 is quite doable, leaving you with 5 points to mess around with (Dex or Wis, probably). Yes, you won't be as powerful at high level, but the power difference is slight. You'll really pull your weight at low levels.
Subedei 04-30-06, 06:46 PM	And 2 skillpoints /level? That halfling kid from Riverview could make you do anything.
catharz 04-30-06, 06:54 PM	And 2 skillpoints /level? That halfling kid from Riverview could make you do anything. Who is that halfling kid from Riverview, and what does 2 skillpoints /level have to do with making me do anything?
Votan 04-30-06, 06:57 PM	Monster summoning is fairly awful at 1st level unless you have some serious mojo. A full round of casting cor a little critter which only sticks around 1 round is, simply put, bad. Using your animal companion as a mount is much better. If you can have a horse as a companion (I don't recall), a mounted half-orc with a base strength of 14, hide armor, a large shield, and a shillelagh is deadly. With a 25 point buy, S:14=>16, D:10, C:14, I:8=>6, W:14, C:8=>6 is quite doable, leaving you with 5 points to mess around with (Dex or Wis, probably). Yes, you won't be as powerful at high level, but the power difference is slight. You'll really pull your weight at low levels. Two thoughts: 1) A wolf or a trained riding dog can attempt a free trip after hitting things. At low levels this can make such a creature extremely effective at dropping humanoid opponents. This is a rather nice ability for the creature to have and it enables any Druid to contribute to low level combat. 2) I have to argue with 6 INT. The Druid skill list is very solid and it seems painful to neglect this aspect of the character. One thing that I do admit that I would consider with a goblin is a level of rogue. It seems like it hurts alot (and, to some extent it does) but if taken at first level you get a LOT of skill points plus trapfinding. In animal form at medium levels you'd make the perfect scout with high wisdom, good spot and search maxed out. [if you had complete adventurer available and if rogue was not the favored class for goblin, Ninja would be worth looking at as well but, in this thread, that's obviously only a footnote]
Subedei 04-30-06, 07:40 PM	Try to convince your DM to let you use a Worg as an animal companion. On the one hand it's not technically legal, on the other you're a goblin. Goblins ride Worgs! If your DM's a reasonable person he should be able to see the infallible logic in this argument.
FriendoftheDork 05-01-06, 01:43 AM	Try to convince your DM to let you use a Worg as an animal companion. On the one hand it's not technically legal, on the other you're a goblin. Goblins ride Worgs! If your DM's a reasonable person he should be able to see the infallible logic in this argument. Yeah I've mentioned It. After playing an all-nighter I've realized a major weakness with my wolf animal companion: The lack of darkvision. Being the races we are, we all have darkvision yet my wolf is blind underground so I need light anway, even if it spoils suprise. What would the effective druid level of a worg be? -3? More? Yet even at 3rd level my wolf is pretty tough otherwise, and I use trip to great effect. Summoning wolves at this level means 1d3 extra attacks and trips attempts for 3 rounds, well worth the casting time. A Black bear won't hurt either. As for the half-orc druid... ah it's pretty good at low levels (but if I want that I would go barb/fighter orc with 22 str), but at higher levels that 14 str is wasted when I bear form, and the lack of int is horrible. Even with 12 int I still don't think I have enough skill points.
nittanytbone 05-01-06, 01:15 PM	Simple solution to the wolf-vision problem: As your animal companion gains hit dice, just have it take the Blind Fight feat. Now it should be able to function just fine with you directing it. The speed penalty is significant but it still moves faster than the party most likely and the miss chance isn't so bad.
Tweedledope 05-01-06, 02:43 PM	If you have any access to the Races of... series, a Half-Orc druid summoner wouldn't be so bad. -=TD=-
neilthrun 05-01-06, 05:11 PM	I'd suggest toughness for that 1st level feat. Seriously, even with a +3 con bonus we're talking 13-18 hp. That can be a little rough. And what better would you have to spend it on? 3rd level is deffinately improved iniative, He who starts the battle, often finishes it. Natural spell at 6th level. 9th could be endurance, maybe run. Power attack might be an okay option as well.
Subedei 05-01-06, 05:21 PM	I think toughness remains an entirely bad idea at all levels. Just about anything will improve your chances of survival more than that. If it's so difficult to survive 1st level you should just try to stay out of fights.
catharz 05-01-06, 06:03 PM	If it's so difficult to survive 1st level you should just try to stay out of fights. This is one of the more entertaining 'optimization' tactics. Have you ever been in a combat encounter where everyone in the party tried to stay out of the fight because they hadn't hit full power yet? It doesn't last long, but it's funny while it does.
Subedei 05-01-06, 06:23 PM	Yes, it's called picking your fights carefully. It's a product of good information and planning.
catharz 05-01-06, 06:31 PM	Yes, it's called picking your fights carefully. It's a product of good information and planning. Picking your fights carefully will only get you so far. If you pick never to fight (or engage in diplomacy, or whatever), you'll never get the the point at which your character shines. If you carefully pick a fight and then refuse to fight in it, you'll still loose.
Subedei 05-01-06, 07:32 PM	I find at 3rd level you're usually tough enough to engage in battle with confidence, I've gotten to that point plenty of times from 1st level without resorting to short term gains and boring feats like toughness. Take a Wizard, for example. Should wizards be taking toughness all the time so they can survive 1st level combat? Of course not, that'd be utterly usefuless. No, you use your spells to cast things like Mage Armor on your friends and hang back with a ranged weapon. Wizards seem to survive just fine at low levels playing quite defensively and the druid is in a substantially better boat than the wizard at that point. By picking your fights carefully I mean to say one should only pick fights they can win before the enemy has a chance to hurt them, if you're thrown into a fight that poses a serious threat then the best option is usually retreat. If retreat is more dangerous then you're just going to need to fight. All in all, most 1st level challenges a DM will throw at you are incredibly easy to resolve with no threat to yourself whatsoever. I've been in a few situations where this was not the case at all and survived. A Fighter, Sorcerer and Ranger stuck in a relatively small cave system with around 200 skeletons for several days for instance. That was incredibly difficult and required a great deal of planning on our part but we did manage to survive and I really don't think 3 HP would have helped any of us.
Banaticus 05-01-06, 09:49 PM	Remember I won't sleep in animal form...Why not?
catharz 05-01-06, 10:08 PM	I find at 3rd level you're usually tough enough to engage in battle with confidence, I've gotten to that point plenty of times from 1st level without resorting to short term gains and boring feats like toughness. Take a Wizard, for example. Should wizards be taking toughness all the time so they can survive 1st level combat? Of course not, that'd be utterly usefuless. No, you use your spells to cast things like Mage Armor on your friends and hang back with a ranged weapon. Wizards seem to survive just fine at low levels playing quite defensively and the druid is in a substantially better boat than the wizard at that point. By picking your fights carefully I mean to say one should only pick fights they can win before the enemy has a chance to hurt them, if you're thrown into a fight that poses a serious threat then the best option is usually retreat. If retreat is more dangerous then you're just going to need to fight. All in all, most 1st level challenges a DM will throw at you are incredibly easy to resolve with no threat to yourself whatsoever. I've been in a few situations where this was not the case at all and survived. A Fighter, Sorcerer and Ranger stuck in a relatively small cave system with around 200 skeletons for several days for instance. That was incredibly difficult and required a great deal of planning on our part but we did manage to survive and I really don't think 3 HP would have helped any of us. Well said. In that case I completely agree. If you aren't fighting closet trolls, tactics and luck. If you are fighting closet trolls you're dead anyway.
nittanytbone 05-02-06, 12:54 AM	I'd suggest toughness for that 1st level feat. Seriously, even with a +3 con bonus we're talking 13-18 hp. That can be a little rough. And what better would you have to spend it on? 3rd level is deffinately improved iniative, He who starts the battle, often finishes it. Natural spell at 6th level. 9th could be endurance, maybe run. Power attack might be an okay option as well. The most precious "commodity" a core druid has are his feats. He never gets any bonus feats from anywhere, so spending each one wisely is of utmost importance. Toughness, skill boosting feats, endurance, and even power attack (as you'll often be using natural weapons) are all BAD ideas for such a character. Look at the feats that druids benefit greatly from: SF Conjuration --> Augment Summoning Craft Wondrous Item Metamagic (esp. Extend) Imp. Initiative Improved Unarmed Strike-->Improved Grapple (very nice wildshape options) Natural Spell That's a full 20 levels of feats right there. Which one of those would be worth losing for 3 paltry hitpoints, or +4 to a check that you'll rarely make (forced march, for example -- who cares about drowning when you can shift into a shark?).