Are druids viable without boosting wildshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are druids viable without boosting wildshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Errant
08-11-06, 08:56 AM I've seen heaps of threads and advice about how good druids are when they focus on wildshape, but are they one-trick wonders?

Can a druid stand out on the battlefield without relying on his wildshape?

If there's a build/thread out there that tells me how they can, I'd love for someone to point me toward it.
weblife
08-11-06, 09:11 AM I too would like to see that, but the truth is probably that the druid is a very able spellcaster already.

When the focus always seem to be on the wildshaping, it more due to the fact that its the hardest part to master.

There are several spells that boost Druid melee in humanoid form. Shillelagh and that other one giving mad bonuses.

In addition, most of the druid builds have summoning augmenting feats or persistent spell feats. Even the ones where wildshaping takes alot of the focus.

I suppose druids are good in their animal shape. And in spellcasting. Oh, and in melee in their original form. And the animal companion on top of that. :P

That aside, I would like to see a build focusing even more on spellcasting and the animal companion, or even several animal companions somehow. Minionmasterlike.
vogster
08-11-06, 09:11 AM Sure, druids can be built to focus on any one of there 3 primary functions(They might have more?). Using feats like greenbound summoning, augment summoning, ashbound and rashemi elemental summoning druids can focus on using summon natures ally and they could technically do nothing else once they have critters summoned except live. They can also take lots of metamagic feats, turn into a dire hawk and perform orbital bombardment and battlefield control.
Pinky's brain
08-11-06, 09:17 AM I think the OP wanted the druid to focus mostly on melee.

The problem with that is that if you play a druid who focuses on melee and is able to wild shape then you should not ignore the fact that you can, that's just bad roleplaying ... and despite this being the CO boards that still turns people off.

If you look at the Druid build thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81471) which can be reached from the stickys on top you will find plenty of builds for melee oriented druids which don't focus on wild shape ... because they have given it up for other abilities.
jameswilliamogle
08-11-06, 09:53 AM Druids that don't focus on wildshape / shapechange usually better serve combat by casting. Spells like Control Winds, Entangle, etc. really control the battlefield (my favorite trick: cast a maximized control winds to make a maximized tornado centered on yourself for "trash mob" death). Summon spells are useful, but they won't generally be able to dish out damage like an optimized druid and pet, imo, and are better served by doing crowd control effects which could've been generated by a spell effect (like the orglash's cone of cold, or the greenbound's grapple bonus). Anyway, that's my opinion.

edit: on another note, Arcane Hierophants (sp?) have some really interesting melee options available to them. Proper buffing could entail:
round 1: Shilelagh
2: Enlarge Self
3: Brambles
4: Tenser's Transformation
5: yell "I'm tired of these mother f'n BBEG's on the mother f'n Battlefield!!!"
(I know, lame, sry, its early for me)
Errant
08-11-06, 10:23 AM I too would like to see that, but the truth is probably that the druid is a very able spellcaster already.

Thats just it, I hear "the druid is a very able spellcaster already" a lot, and I recognise they have good battlefield control spells to tie up enemies while their allies (summoned or not) take them out, but that seems to be about it.

Ok, yes, I forgot the augmented summoning stream as well.

I think the OP wanted the druid to focus mostly on melee.

Actually, what I'd really like to see is a build that gives the druid the option to use spells and melee to pull his weight in battle without resorting to wildshape as a battle tactic and without sacrificing wildshape altogether.

I'm conflicted I guess. I can't imagine a (NG?) druid being happy sending in animals, summoned or not, to get carved up, and I'm fishing for some tactic other than wildshaping, which seems to be the only real tactic left.
Sisyfos
08-11-06, 11:12 AM Druids are not built for melee without wildshape and their best spellcasting role is probably summoning and healing. That is a severe handicap you place yourself in if you wont resort to any of those tactics.
Errant
08-11-06, 10:56 PM Druids are not built for melee without wildshape and their best spellcasting role is probably summoning and healing. That is a severe handicap you place yourself in if you wont resort to any of those tactics.

Thats probably what has kept me away from druids for so long, but let me clarify a bit.

I like the idea of druids as guardians of nature in the protector/nurturer sense. The idea of sending animals of any kind into battle as a routine battle tactic seems a little contrary to that protector/nurturer concept. The animals *are* going to get hacked, blasted, burnt and hurt in any number of nasty ways and you'd have to be a bit callous not to care about that wouldn't you?

That doesn't mean I think caring druids would *never* summon/command animals into battle, I just think of it as a last resort/necessary evil type tactic. Which makes it something you might prepare a few spells for 'just in case', but not a tactic you would dedicate your entire career (build) on.

At the same time, I think wildshape is the quintessential manifestation of a druid's connection to nature, so eliminating that entirely seems to gut the class. Plus, wildshape has numerous handy uses outside combat.

Does that mean a reluctant-summoner druid is only left with specialising in wildshape if he wants to have a notable presence on the battlefield?

Maybe this is the wrong board to be asking a roleplaying over pure power type question, but I figured if there was a powerful non-summoner/non-wildshaper spec druid build out there I thought someone here could point me towards it.

I have browsed the druids build thread (thanks for the link Pinky) and the druid handbook thread, but I'm still working my way through it. Most builds seem to involve a touch of druid and a lot of prestige classes which doesn't help me with my druid question much.

Thanks for the responses by the way, they were greatly appreciated.
PhoenixInferno
08-11-06, 11:17 PM I have browsed the druids build thread (thanks for the link Pinky) and the druid handbook thread, but I'm still working my way through it. Most builds seem to involve a touch of druid and a lot of prestige classes which doesn't help me with my druid question much.By leaving the Druid class they've given up Wildshape - hence, they are precisely the kinds of builds you should be examining.
Errant
08-11-06, 11:33 PM By leaving the Druid class they've given up Wildshape - hence, they are precisely the kinds of builds you should be examining.

... and if they stay druid long enough they still have *some* wildshape ability, of course, now I get it. :)
AvaronGansdell
08-11-06, 11:43 PM though not optimal you could summon elementals. mabye go for a elemental master type druid....you could even go into a few of the weather related classes from the enviorment books sandstorm, frost burn exc.
Surreal
08-11-06, 11:49 PM I like the idea of druids as guardians of nature in the protector/nurturer sense. The idea of sending animals of any kind into battle as a routine battle tactic seems a little contrary to that protector/nurturer concept. The animals *are* going to get hacked, blasted, burnt and hurt in any number of nasty ways and you'd have to be a bit callous not to care about that wouldn't you?
If someone invades your home, would you not defend yourself?

If someone invades your country, would you not send your soldiers out to fight?

Noblesse Oblige only goes so far, and there comes a point when you can't do everything yourself. For the greater good yadda yadda.

Regarding entering the fight yourself without wildshape, that's like telling a gish to stroll into the middle of a mob without buffs. Sure you can do it, but why?
JulesCARV
08-12-06, 12:49 AM I think that concerns over the fate of summoned animals would only make sense of Summon Nature's Ally spells were conjuration (calling) spells. They're not: they're conjuration (summoning) spells, and summoned creatures disappear from the battlefield and go back to living their lives 24 hours after they're killed in battle.
PhaedrusXY
08-12-06, 01:28 AM Don't druids get a spell that lets them make a full attack on a charge in some splat book or another? You could make an Ubercharger type of character with a druid. Take Power Attack + Shock Trooper, use a lance, and get an animal companion with Pounce + Rake + Improved Grab (Dire Lion).

The worst part is you're not going to be able to benefit from Share Spells with your mount, as you are not an animal and most of your buff spells affect animals. You could take Arcane Disciple to get access to some cleric buffs that would affect you both, though.
HeadofVecna
08-12-06, 02:45 AM Don't druids get a spell that lets them make a full attack on a charge in some splat book or another? You could make an Ubercharger type of character with a druid. Take Power Attack + Shock Trooper, use a lance, and get an animal companion with Pounce + Rake + Improved Grab (Dire Lion).

The pounce spell is Lion's Charge (3rd lvl, swift action). It's reprinted in the Spell Compendium.

If you go with a bludgeoning weapon rather than a lance, Spikes (even post nerf) is pretty good. Barkskin and stoneskin are also reasonable decent buffs. You could also craft your own stat enhancers.

Taking another look at the nature's guardian theme, using animals as cannon fodder might be ill fitting. But applying the monstrous plant-critter template of Greenbound Summoning has a bunch of thematic flavor as well as being wonderfully broken at low to mid levels.
Temjinstrife
08-12-06, 03:17 AM I've seen a druid build that went TWF with a quarterstaff and the Spikes spell. Quite nice in melee, regardless of wildshape.

My own personal favorite build (far from optimized, but w/e) was my talenta halfling who rode a dire hawk animal companion into battle. Spirited Charges with Spiked wooden weapons made for damage rolls that looked like 3d6+90, and at a nearly 200 foot charge range, too. The mobility afforded by the hawk allowed him to dart in and heal when needed, or step back and blast. I don't think I ever used wildshape with that character; didn't really need to.
Stickboy2323
08-12-06, 04:08 AM The worst part is you're not going to be able to benefit from Share Spells with your mount, as you are not an animal and most of your buff spells affect animals.
From the SRD:
At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. ... A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).
Seems to me that as long as you are on your mount any spell you cast on yourself or on your animal companion affects both of you as long as the spell doesn't only affect animals.

This is why you play a halfling druid with the 1st racial substitution level. You get some cool bonuses to ride checks plus a list of spontaneous buff spells. Combine this with the non-wildshaping druid variant from UA and you have yourself one heckuva neat little PC.
PhaedrusXY
08-12-06, 04:30 AM Seems to me that as long as you are on your mount any spell you cast on yourself or on your animal companion affects both of you as long as the spell doesn't only affect animals.

This is why you play a halfling druid with the 1st racial substitution level. You get some cool bonuses to ride checks plus a list of spontaneous buff spells. Combine this with the non-wildshaping druid variant from UA and you have yourself one heckuva neat little PC.Not quite. Read it again. It only goes one way (spells cast on the druid affect the companion). So unless you Wildshape, all of those Animal Growth type spells are going to affect your companion only, and not you. If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat.
Stickboy2323
08-12-06, 04:50 AM OK, you're right but there are still plenty of spells that can affect both of you. Just because you already have an animal companion doesn't mean that you can't have a bunch of trained pets that will take direction. Hmmm. That sounds like an idea worth pursuing.
FriendlyFrog
08-12-06, 07:14 AM If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat.
But with the nerf to the rules your type doesn't change even if you'd wild shape. Nothing to lose there.
AvaronGansdell
08-12-06, 10:36 AM if you dont plan on useing wildshape alot consider grabbing a wild feat or two. if you can wait till 9th you can grab elephants hide which gives you +7 natrual armor bonuse for 10 minutes.

wonderful to help your poor druids AC.
Surreal
08-12-06, 12:10 PM If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat.
But with the nerf to the rules your type doesn't change even if you'd wild shape. Nothing to lose there.
And a dip into Primeval gives you a primal form which does change your type to animal... er, unless there was another errata of an update to an errata or something or other.
PhaedrusXY
08-12-06, 02:54 PM And a dip into Primeval gives you a primal form which does change your type to animal... er, unless there was another errata of an update to an errata or something or other.Yeah... I can't keep up with all the Polymorph erratas/FAQs/etc. I wish they'd just totally scrap those spells, and write alot more restricted spells to replace them. There are a few "fixes" that could actually work, but they would all involve very signifigant rule changes I think.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Errant 08-11-06, 08:56 AM	I've seen heaps of threads and advice about how good druids are when they focus on wildshape, but are they one-trick wonders? Can a druid stand out on the battlefield without relying on his wildshape? If there's a build/thread out there that tells me how they can, I'd love for someone to point me toward it.
weblife 08-11-06, 09:11 AM	I too would like to see that, but the truth is probably that the druid is a very able spellcaster already. When the focus always seem to be on the wildshaping, it more due to the fact that its the hardest part to master. There are several spells that boost Druid melee in humanoid form. Shillelagh and that other one giving mad bonuses. In addition, most of the druid builds have summoning augmenting feats or persistent spell feats. Even the ones where wildshaping takes alot of the focus. I suppose druids are good in their animal shape. And in spellcasting. Oh, and in melee in their original form. And the animal companion on top of that. :P That aside, I would like to see a build focusing even more on spellcasting and the animal companion, or even several animal companions somehow. Minionmasterlike.
vogster 08-11-06, 09:11 AM	Sure, druids can be built to focus on any one of there 3 primary functions(They might have more?). Using feats like greenbound summoning, augment summoning, ashbound and rashemi elemental summoning druids can focus on using summon natures ally and they could technically do nothing else once they have critters summoned except live. They can also take lots of metamagic feats, turn into a dire hawk and perform orbital bombardment and battlefield control.
Pinky's brain 08-11-06, 09:17 AM	I think the OP wanted the druid to focus mostly on melee. The problem with that is that if you play a druid who focuses on melee and is able to wild shape then you should not ignore the fact that you can, that's just bad roleplaying ... and despite this being the CO boards that still turns people off. If you look at the Druid build thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81471) which can be reached from the stickys on top you will find plenty of builds for melee oriented druids which don't focus on wild shape ... because they have given it up for other abilities.
jameswilliamogle 08-11-06, 09:53 AM	Druids that don't focus on wildshape / shapechange usually better serve combat by casting. Spells like Control Winds, Entangle, etc. really control the battlefield (my favorite trick: cast a maximized control winds to make a maximized tornado centered on yourself for "trash mob" death). Summon spells are useful, but they won't generally be able to dish out damage like an optimized druid and pet, imo, and are better served by doing crowd control effects which could've been generated by a spell effect (like the orglash's cone of cold, or the greenbound's grapple bonus). Anyway, that's my opinion. edit: on another note, Arcane Hierophants (sp?) have some really interesting melee options available to them. Proper buffing could entail: round 1: Shilelagh 2: Enlarge Self 3: Brambles 4: Tenser's Transformation 5: yell "I'm tired of these mother f'n BBEG's on the mother f'n Battlefield!!!" (I know, lame, sry, its early for me)
Errant 08-11-06, 10:23 AM	I too would like to see that, but the truth is probably that the druid is a very able spellcaster already. Thats just it, I hear "the druid is a very able spellcaster already" a lot, and I recognise they have good battlefield control spells to tie up enemies while their allies (summoned or not) take them out, but that seems to be about it. Ok, yes, I forgot the augmented summoning stream as well. I think the OP wanted the druid to focus mostly on melee. Actually, what I'd really like to see is a build that gives the druid the option to use spells and melee to pull his weight in battle without resorting to wildshape as a battle tactic and without sacrificing wildshape altogether. I'm conflicted I guess. I can't imagine a (NG?) druid being happy sending in animals, summoned or not, to get carved up, and I'm fishing for some tactic other than wildshaping, which seems to be the only real tactic left.
Sisyfos 08-11-06, 11:12 AM	Druids are not built for melee without wildshape and their best spellcasting role is probably summoning and healing. That is a severe handicap you place yourself in if you wont resort to any of those tactics.
Errant 08-11-06, 10:56 PM	Druids are not built for melee without wildshape and their best spellcasting role is probably summoning and healing. That is a severe handicap you place yourself in if you wont resort to any of those tactics. Thats probably what has kept me away from druids for so long, but let me clarify a bit. I like the idea of druids as guardians of nature in the protector/nurturer sense. The idea of sending animals of any kind into battle as a routine battle tactic seems a little contrary to that protector/nurturer concept. The animals are going to get hacked, blasted, burnt and hurt in any number of nasty ways and you'd have to be a bit callous not to care about that wouldn't you? That doesn't mean I think caring druids would never summon/command animals into battle, I just think of it as a last resort/necessary evil type tactic. Which makes it something you might prepare a few spells for 'just in case', but not a tactic you would dedicate your entire career (build) on. At the same time, I think wildshape is the quintessential manifestation of a druid's connection to nature, so eliminating that entirely seems to gut the class. Plus, wildshape has numerous handy uses outside combat. Does that mean a reluctant-summoner druid is only left with specialising in wildshape if he wants to have a notable presence on the battlefield? Maybe this is the wrong board to be asking a roleplaying over pure power type question, but I figured if there was a powerful non-summoner/non-wildshaper spec druid build out there I thought someone here could point me towards it. I have browsed the druids build thread (thanks for the link Pinky) and the druid handbook thread, but I'm still working my way through it. Most builds seem to involve a touch of druid and a lot of prestige classes which doesn't help me with my druid question much. Thanks for the responses by the way, they were greatly appreciated.
PhoenixInferno 08-11-06, 11:17 PM	I have browsed the druids build thread (thanks for the link Pinky) and the druid handbook thread, but I'm still working my way through it. Most builds seem to involve a touch of druid and a lot of prestige classes which doesn't help me with my druid question much.By leaving the Druid class they've given up Wildshape - hence, they are precisely the kinds of builds you should be examining.
Errant 08-11-06, 11:33 PM	By leaving the Druid class they've given up Wildshape - hence, they are precisely the kinds of builds you should be examining. ... and if they stay druid long enough they still have some wildshape ability, of course, now I get it. :)
AvaronGansdell 08-11-06, 11:43 PM	though not optimal you could summon elementals. mabye go for a elemental master type druid....you could even go into a few of the weather related classes from the enviorment books sandstorm, frost burn exc.
Surreal 08-11-06, 11:49 PM	I like the idea of druids as guardians of nature in the protector/nurturer sense. The idea of sending animals of any kind into battle as a routine battle tactic seems a little contrary to that protector/nurturer concept. The animals are going to get hacked, blasted, burnt and hurt in any number of nasty ways and you'd have to be a bit callous not to care about that wouldn't you? If someone invades your home, would you not defend yourself? If someone invades your country, would you not send your soldiers out to fight? Noblesse Oblige only goes so far, and there comes a point when you can't do everything yourself. For the greater good yadda yadda. Regarding entering the fight yourself without wildshape, that's like telling a gish to stroll into the middle of a mob without buffs. Sure you can do it, but why?
JulesCARV 08-12-06, 12:49 AM	I think that concerns over the fate of summoned animals would only make sense of Summon Nature's Ally spells were conjuration (calling) spells. They're not: they're conjuration (summoning) spells, and summoned creatures disappear from the battlefield and go back to living their lives 24 hours after they're killed in battle.
PhaedrusXY 08-12-06, 01:28 AM	Don't druids get a spell that lets them make a full attack on a charge in some splat book or another? You could make an Ubercharger type of character with a druid. Take Power Attack + Shock Trooper, use a lance, and get an animal companion with Pounce + Rake + Improved Grab (Dire Lion). The worst part is you're not going to be able to benefit from Share Spells with your mount, as you are not an animal and most of your buff spells affect animals. You could take Arcane Disciple to get access to some cleric buffs that would affect you both, though.
HeadofVecna 08-12-06, 02:45 AM	Don't druids get a spell that lets them make a full attack on a charge in some splat book or another? You could make an Ubercharger type of character with a druid. Take Power Attack + Shock Trooper, use a lance, and get an animal companion with Pounce + Rake + Improved Grab (Dire Lion). The pounce spell is Lion's Charge (3rd lvl, swift action). It's reprinted in the Spell Compendium. If you go with a bludgeoning weapon rather than a lance, Spikes (even post nerf) is pretty good. Barkskin and stoneskin are also reasonable decent buffs. You could also craft your own stat enhancers. Taking another look at the nature's guardian theme, using animals as cannon fodder might be ill fitting. But applying the monstrous plant-critter template of Greenbound Summoning has a bunch of thematic flavor as well as being wonderfully broken at low to mid levels.
Temjinstrife 08-12-06, 03:17 AM	I've seen a druid build that went TWF with a quarterstaff and the Spikes spell. Quite nice in melee, regardless of wildshape. My own personal favorite build (far from optimized, but w/e) was my talenta halfling who rode a dire hawk animal companion into battle. Spirited Charges with Spiked wooden weapons made for damage rolls that looked like 3d6+90, and at a nearly 200 foot charge range, too. The mobility afforded by the hawk allowed him to dart in and heal when needed, or step back and blast. I don't think I ever used wildshape with that character; didn't really need to.
Stickboy2323 08-12-06, 04:08 AM	The worst part is you're not going to be able to benefit from Share Spells with your mount, as you are not an animal and most of your buff spells affect animals. From the SRD: At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. ... A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal). Seems to me that as long as you are on your mount any spell you cast on yourself or on your animal companion affects both of you as long as the spell doesn't only affect animals. This is why you play a halfling druid with the 1st racial substitution level. You get some cool bonuses to ride checks plus a list of spontaneous buff spells. Combine this with the non-wildshaping druid variant from UA and you have yourself one heckuva neat little PC.
PhaedrusXY 08-12-06, 04:30 AM	Seems to me that as long as you are on your mount any spell you cast on yourself or on your animal companion affects both of you as long as the spell doesn't only affect animals. This is why you play a halfling druid with the 1st racial substitution level. You get some cool bonuses to ride checks plus a list of spontaneous buff spells. Combine this with the non-wildshaping druid variant from UA and you have yourself one heckuva neat little PC.Not quite. Read it again. It only goes one way (spells cast on the druid affect the companion). So unless you Wildshape, all of those Animal Growth type spells are going to affect your companion only, and not you. If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat.
Stickboy2323 08-12-06, 04:50 AM	OK, you're right but there are still plenty of spells that can affect both of you. Just because you already have an animal companion doesn't mean that you can't have a bunch of trained pets that will take direction. Hmmm. That sounds like an idea worth pursuing.
FriendlyFrog 08-12-06, 07:14 AM	If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat. But with the nerf to the rules your type doesn't change even if you'd wild shape. Nothing to lose there.
AvaronGansdell 08-12-06, 10:36 AM	if you dont plan on useing wildshape alot consider grabbing a wild feat or two. if you can wait till 9th you can grab elephants hide which gives you +7 natrual armor bonuse for 10 minutes. wonderful to help your poor druids AC.
Surreal 08-12-06, 12:10 PM	If you wildshape into a monkey or ape, you can share them and still focus on mounted combat. But with the nerf to the rules your type doesn't change even if you'd wild shape. Nothing to lose there. And a dip into Primeval gives you a primal form which does change your type to animal... er, unless there was another errata of an update to an errata or something or other.
PhaedrusXY 08-12-06, 02:54 PM	And a dip into Primeval gives you a primal form which does change your type to animal... er, unless there was another errata of an update to an errata or something or other.Yeah... I can't keep up with all the Polymorph erratas/FAQs/etc. I wish they'd just totally scrap those spells, and write alot more restricted spells to replace them. There are a few "fixes" that could actually work, but they would all involve very signifigant rule changes I think.