Are MYSTIC THEURGEs still viable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are MYSTIC THEURGEs still viable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Azar_of_Faerun
01-13-07, 11:22 PM Have any new feats came out that compliment them nicely? And what two classes do you recommend?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
01-13-07, 11:50 PM A better question would be, were they ever viable? Most would say no.

Bottom line there is one formula for making mystic theurges viable and that's via acclerated casting progressions, for which there are two possible methods:

1. Early entry tricks
*Illumian words: grant heighten spell so that you meet the "able to cast 2nd level spells" requirement earlier.
*Earth spell + Earth Power: Another heighten trick for the same purpose as above.
*Precocious apprentice: Questionable. Many here adhere to the belief that it doesn't work, but I've heard compelling arguments both ways. This allows you to cast a 2nd level arcane spell at 1st level.

2. Fast progression classes:
*Sublime Chord gets 9th level spells 10 levels
*Ur-Priest does the same
*So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe.

And that's basically Mystic Theurge optimization in a nutshell.
Blade2718
01-13-07, 11:59 PM 2. Fast progression classes:
*So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe.Nar Demonbinder does not get 2nd level spells; it starts with 4th.
fnord
01-14-07, 12:02 AM A better question would be, were they ever viable? Most would say no.
I'd say they're more viable now than when it was first released. Practiced Spellcaster is a big help for anyone who loses caster levels.

At high levels (like 20th), they can be good, even with the tricks below. But playing through the middle is really tough.

1. Early entry tricks
Don't forget Sanctum Spell. Probably even more questionable, but a possibility.

2. Fast progression classes:
*Sublime Chord gets 9th level spells 10 levels
*Ur-Priest does the same
*So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe.
Nar-Demonbinder does not get 9th level spells in 10. It gets 8th in 7, or something like that.
Apostle of Peace is 9th in 10, and can get enormous CL, but the roleplaying restrictions are troublesome.
Divine Crusader gets 9th level spells in 10, but from a very limited list. If you spend some levels to add more domains, it can get better.
fnord
01-14-07, 12:05 AM Nar Demonbinder does not get 2nd level spells; it starts with 4th.

Sigh. There's a number of ways to get 2nd level spells with Nar Demonbinder. Arcane Preparation lets you prepare Corrupt or Exalted spells. Mother Cyst and Arcane Disciple get you more spells. I'm sure there are others.
Saturno
01-14-07, 12:39 AM Wizard 3
Druid 3
Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) 10
Mystic Theurge 4

Total stats:

Druid effective lvl : 17 (9th lvl spells)
Wizard effective lvl: 17 (9th lvl spells)

Other good things:

Can cast arcane spells with druid armors without risk of failure.
Combined Familiar and Animal companion for an intelligent combat pet
Advanced Wild shape progression
tiejaz
01-14-07, 01:34 AM Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Archmage 4.

Wizard casting 18 (9th level spells)
Ur-Priest casting 20 (9th level spells)
Archmage 4 levels rocks, as usual
Turn Undead
Telepathy
Endarire
01-14-07, 02:55 AM Nar demonbinders get L8 spells in 7 levels.

Also, beholder mages get L9 spells in 9 levels, though you must be a true beholder who put out his central antimagic eye to enter. See dirty trick 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) for details.

-EE
divide_by_zero
01-14-07, 03:51 AM Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Archmage 4.

Wizard casting 18 (9th level spells)
Ur-Priest casting 20 (9th level spells)
Archmage 4 levels rocks, as usual
Turn Undead
Telepathy

For the Ur-Priest caster level, adding your Ur-Priest's level to half the caster level from any other spellcasting class, wouldn't that be 10 (UP2 + MT8) plus 18/2 = 9. So 19 total CL for the Ur Priest side?
GoofsterStud
01-14-07, 04:11 AM For the Ur-Priest caster level, adding your Ur-Priest's level to half the caster level from any other spellcasting class, wouldn't that be 10 (UP2 + MT8) plus 18/2 = 9. So 19 total CL for the Ur Priest side?

That is correct.

So a kobold/Dragon Spawn White
Using the ritual and level buyback system

Could be:
Ur Priest: 2
Sorcerer: 5 + 2 levels in sorcer from dragon spawn and the ritual
Mindbender: 1
Mystic Theurge: 8
Archmage: 4

Spells as a 20th Level sorcer
Ur Priest Spells as a 10th Level UR Priest with a 21 caster level.
Ability to cast divine spells of any alignment
Telepathy
Turn/Rebuke Undead
Archmage goodies
stsword
01-14-07, 04:21 AM Or the southern magician feat from races of faerun, which would technically allow one to qualify for both spell casting requirements with only one class, since it allows you to cast your spells as either divine or arcane a couple of times per day.

So you could get into mystic theurge with only giving up one caster level in your favored spellcasting class.

So one could go Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10, and for giving up one 7th level spell you would have the spellcasting abilities of an eleventh level wizard, or vice versa.

Or for more of a gish take there is a feat Sword of the Arcane Order that would make an 8th level Ranger or Paladin qualify because it allows them to cast wizard spells. Paladin 8/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Eldritch Knight 10 would give you a base attack of 18, 6th level wizard spells, and 4th level paladin spells.
Caelic
01-14-07, 10:14 AM I must point out once again...despite the insistence of some that the two terms are synonymous...that the Ur-Priest does not use your caster level in another spellcasting class to calculate its own caster level. It uses your level in that class, which is significantly different.
VoxPVoxD
01-14-07, 10:39 AM I guess it really comes down to how you define "Mystic Theurge"

If you're referring to the principle of a dual-progression caster, then yeah there are lots of ways to make the most of that. Mystic Theurge is generally the least optimal way to do so.

It's sort of the same as equating an Eldritch Knight with a gish. The core principle is there, and it's the most obvious route, but its proper role in an optimized build is as filler when nothing else is available
Valdrax
01-14-07, 11:33 AM Everyone seems to forget that Apostles of Peace also get 9th level spells in 9-10 levels, though I can understand why considering the limitations the required Exalted feats put on a character.
Caelic
01-14-07, 04:25 PM Oh, no, Valdrax--I don't forget that for a second. Particularly considering that the Apostle of Peace DOES work the way people mistakenly believe the Ur-Priest works...that is, it calculates its caster level by using your caster level in other classes.

It's quite possible to get a truly obscene caster level as an Apostle of Peace.
FeceMan
01-14-07, 05:00 PM "Are MYSTIC THEURGEs still viable?"

When were MYSTIC THEURGEs viable in the first place? Maybe in a campaign in which the role of primary arcanist and primary healbot are filled and you have at least a 32 point buy...

(Not that having 8th/8th casting is horrible, but the mystic theurge just takes way too long to get not-sucking.)

Otherwise, just be a cleric with the Spell and Magic domains.
VoxPVoxD
01-14-07, 05:28 PM Oh, no, Valdrax--I don't forget that for a second. Particularly considering that the Apostle of Peace DOES work the way people mistakenly believe the Ur-Priest works...that is, it calculates its caster level by using your caster level in other classes.

It's quite possible to get a truly obscene caster level as an Apostle of Peace.

Bah!

Nothing's obscene when you're Exalted :angel:
Phoenix00
01-14-07, 06:51 PM Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Take Precocious Apprentice as your 1st lvl feat.

Note due to the creeping darkness text box on page 115 of Tome of Magic you can do a Wizard 3, and once you multiclass into the shadowcaster on your 4th lvl you can exchange your lvls of Wizard 2 and 3 for Shadowcaster 2 and 3. You then take Noctumancer as your 5th lvl.
MikeN
01-14-07, 11:55 PM Your simple, easy "evil bard" build:

Bard8/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheurge8

There are more optimized versions, but this one gets you 9th level arcane and divine, BAB=12, and a decent skill set. Playable through all levels, and the only power drop is levels 9 and 10.

The "good" version just uses Apostle of Peace instead of Ur-Priest.
_____

Mystic Theurge never was truly viable from an optimization standpoint. It seems like the class was put in as an intelligence test for DM's and/or players. Likewise the Fochlucan Lyrist and a few others that people on other boards insist is incredibly strong but actually is not...
Bengal
01-15-07, 12:12 AM I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS.

Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on.
MikeN
01-15-07, 12:26 AM I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS.

Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on.

I was the first one back in the day to put that build on this board, back when people would come here and say how "broken" mystic theurge was.

I played one, and even starting from level 10, it was irritating. Decent at supporting the other characters, but BAB was terrible and I was far behind any other character in casting, so all I could really do decently was buff, secondary heal, and some battlefield control. But casting level 3 spells at level 10 is really annoying even if you have a lot of them...everyone else who casts is using level 5's. It's an interesting character to play and fun, but not terribly optimized.
Bengal
01-15-07, 12:29 AM I'll admit that we only played levels 1-7 and 18-20 with that party, so we missed the levels that you suggest as awkward.
FeceMan
01-15-07, 01:13 AM I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS.

Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on.
Having two crappy character classes in one makes for an awesome character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azar_of_Faerun 01-13-07, 11:22 PM	Have any new feats came out that compliment them nicely? And what two classes do you recommend?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-13-07, 11:50 PM	A better question would be, were they ever viable? Most would say no. Bottom line there is one formula for making mystic theurges viable and that's via acclerated casting progressions, for which there are two possible methods: 1. Early entry tricks Illumian words: grant heighten spell so that you meet the "able to cast 2nd level spells" requirement earlier. Earth spell + Earth Power: Another heighten trick for the same purpose as above. Precocious apprentice: Questionable. Many here adhere to the belief that it doesn't work, but I've heard compelling arguments both ways. This allows you to cast a 2nd level arcane spell at 1st level. 2. Fast progression classes: Sublime Chord gets 9th level spells 10 levels Ur-Priest does the same So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe. And that's basically Mystic Theurge optimization in a nutshell.
Blade2718 01-13-07, 11:59 PM	2. Fast progression classes: *So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe.Nar Demonbinder does not get 2nd level spells; it starts with 4th.
fnord 01-14-07, 12:02 AM	A better question would be, were they ever viable? Most would say no. I'd say they're more viable now than when it was first released. Practiced Spellcaster is a big help for anyone who loses caster levels. At high levels (like 20th), they can be good, even with the tricks below. But playing through the middle is really tough. 1. Early entry tricks Don't forget Sanctum Spell. Probably even more questionable, but a possibility. 2. Fast progression classes: Sublime Chord gets 9th level spells 10 levels Ur-Priest does the same *So does Nar-Demon Binder, I believe. Nar-Demonbinder does not get 9th level spells in 10. It gets 8th in 7, or something like that. Apostle of Peace is 9th in 10, and can get enormous CL, but the roleplaying restrictions are troublesome. Divine Crusader gets 9th level spells in 10, but from a very limited list. If you spend some levels to add more domains, it can get better.
fnord 01-14-07, 12:05 AM	Nar Demonbinder does not get 2nd level spells; it starts with 4th. Sigh. There's a number of ways to get 2nd level spells with Nar Demonbinder. Arcane Preparation lets you prepare Corrupt or Exalted spells. Mother Cyst and Arcane Disciple get you more spells. I'm sure there are others.
Saturno 01-14-07, 12:39 AM	Wizard 3 Druid 3 Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) 10 Mystic Theurge 4 Total stats: Druid effective lvl : 17 (9th lvl spells) Wizard effective lvl: 17 (9th lvl spells) Other good things: Can cast arcane spells with druid armors without risk of failure. Combined Familiar and Animal companion for an intelligent combat pet Advanced Wild shape progression
tiejaz 01-14-07, 01:34 AM	Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Archmage 4. Wizard casting 18 (9th level spells) Ur-Priest casting 20 (9th level spells) Archmage 4 levels rocks, as usual Turn Undead Telepathy
Endarire 01-14-07, 02:55 AM	Nar demonbinders get L8 spells in 7 levels. Also, beholder mages get L9 spells in 9 levels, though you must be a true beholder who put out his central antimagic eye to enter. See dirty trick 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) for details. -EE
divide_by_zero 01-14-07, 03:51 AM	Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Archmage 4. Wizard casting 18 (9th level spells) Ur-Priest casting 20 (9th level spells) Archmage 4 levels rocks, as usual Turn Undead Telepathy For the Ur-Priest caster level, adding your Ur-Priest's level to half the caster level from any other spellcasting class, wouldn't that be 10 (UP2 + MT8) plus 18/2 = 9. So 19 total CL for the Ur Priest side?
GoofsterStud 01-14-07, 04:11 AM	For the Ur-Priest caster level, adding your Ur-Priest's level to half the caster level from any other spellcasting class, wouldn't that be 10 (UP2 + MT8) plus 18/2 = 9. So 19 total CL for the Ur Priest side? That is correct. So a kobold/Dragon Spawn White Using the ritual and level buyback system Could be: Ur Priest: 2 Sorcerer: 5 + 2 levels in sorcer from dragon spawn and the ritual Mindbender: 1 Mystic Theurge: 8 Archmage: 4 Spells as a 20th Level sorcer Ur Priest Spells as a 10th Level UR Priest with a 21 caster level. Ability to cast divine spells of any alignment Telepathy Turn/Rebuke Undead Archmage goodies
stsword 01-14-07, 04:21 AM	Or the southern magician feat from races of faerun, which would technically allow one to qualify for both spell casting requirements with only one class, since it allows you to cast your spells as either divine or arcane a couple of times per day. So you could get into mystic theurge with only giving up one caster level in your favored spellcasting class. So one could go Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10, and for giving up one 7th level spell you would have the spellcasting abilities of an eleventh level wizard, or vice versa. Or for more of a gish take there is a feat Sword of the Arcane Order that would make an 8th level Ranger or Paladin qualify because it allows them to cast wizard spells. Paladin 8/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Eldritch Knight 10 would give you a base attack of 18, 6th level wizard spells, and 4th level paladin spells.
Caelic 01-14-07, 10:14 AM	I must point out once again...despite the insistence of some that the two terms are synonymous...that the Ur-Priest does not use your caster level in another spellcasting class to calculate its own caster level. It uses your level in that class, which is significantly different.
VoxPVoxD 01-14-07, 10:39 AM	I guess it really comes down to how you define "Mystic Theurge" If you're referring to the principle of a dual-progression caster, then yeah there are lots of ways to make the most of that. Mystic Theurge is generally the least optimal way to do so. It's sort of the same as equating an Eldritch Knight with a gish. The core principle is there, and it's the most obvious route, but its proper role in an optimized build is as filler when nothing else is available
Valdrax 01-14-07, 11:33 AM	Everyone seems to forget that Apostles of Peace also get 9th level spells in 9-10 levels, though I can understand why considering the limitations the required Exalted feats put on a character.
Caelic 01-14-07, 04:25 PM	Oh, no, Valdrax--I don't forget that for a second. Particularly considering that the Apostle of Peace DOES work the way people mistakenly believe the Ur-Priest works...that is, it calculates its caster level by using your caster level in other classes. It's quite possible to get a truly obscene caster level as an Apostle of Peace.
FeceMan 01-14-07, 05:00 PM	"Are MYSTIC THEURGEs still viable?" When were MYSTIC THEURGEs viable in the first place? Maybe in a campaign in which the role of primary arcanist and primary healbot are filled and you have at least a 32 point buy... (Not that having 8th/8th casting is horrible, but the mystic theurge just takes way too long to get not-sucking.) Otherwise, just be a cleric with the Spell and Magic domains.
VoxPVoxD 01-14-07, 05:28 PM	Oh, no, Valdrax--I don't forget that for a second. Particularly considering that the Apostle of Peace DOES work the way people mistakenly believe the Ur-Priest works...that is, it calculates its caster level by using your caster level in other classes. It's quite possible to get a truly obscene caster level as an Apostle of Peace. Bah! Nothing's obscene when you're Exalted :angel:
Phoenix00 01-14-07, 06:51 PM	Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6 Take Precocious Apprentice as your 1st lvl feat. Note due to the creeping darkness text box on page 115 of Tome of Magic you can do a Wizard 3, and once you multiclass into the shadowcaster on your 4th lvl you can exchange your lvls of Wizard 2 and 3 for Shadowcaster 2 and 3. You then take Noctumancer as your 5th lvl.
MikeN 01-14-07, 11:55 PM	Your simple, easy "evil bard" build: Bard8/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheurge8 There are more optimized versions, but this one gets you 9th level arcane and divine, BAB=12, and a decent skill set. Playable through all levels, and the only power drop is levels 9 and 10. The "good" version just uses Apostle of Peace instead of Ur-Priest. _____ Mystic Theurge never was truly viable from an optimization standpoint. It seems like the class was put in as an intelligence test for DM's and/or players. Likewise the Fochlucan Lyrist and a few others that people on other boards insist is incredibly strong but actually is not...
Bengal 01-15-07, 12:12 AM	I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS. Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on.
MikeN 01-15-07, 12:26 AM	I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS. Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on. I was the first one back in the day to put that build on this board, back when people would come here and say how "broken" mystic theurge was. I played one, and even starting from level 10, it was irritating. Decent at supporting the other characters, but BAB was terrible and I was far behind any other character in casting, so all I could really do decently was buff, secondary heal, and some battlefield control. But casting level 3 spells at level 10 is really annoying even if you have a lot of them...everyone else who casts is using level 5's. It's an interesting character to play and fun, but not terribly optimized.
Bengal 01-15-07, 12:29 AM	I'll admit that we only played levels 1-7 and 18-20 with that party, so we missed the levels that you suggest as awkward.
FeceMan 01-15-07, 01:13 AM	I've seen a lot of effect from a sorceror/Shugenja mystic theurge. Spell slots for DAYS. Certainly not perfect, barely even optimized, but at least they both focus on charisma and are frontloaded enough to be fully supported by taking as much of prestige classes as you can get your hands on. Having two crappy character classes in one makes for an awesome character.