Are summoners useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are summoners useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HunterKillerX3M
08-25-05, 11:29 AM Ok Im playing a Sorcerer Spellsword in one of my friends campaign, and I based him on a summoner (specializes on summoning spells) but I recently bumped into a problem... my dm says i cant summon anything that doesnt speak any of the languages I dont know.... thats kind of hard since im Chaotic Good and the only extra language i know is Infernal and Abyssal I think... so if this is true... whats the purpose of summoning? and also does alignments matter when using summon monster spells? And I would also like to know how to make the best out of being a summoner since ive noticed that summoning isnt one of the strongest spellcasting options there are. any help would be greatly apreciated.

character: Sorc/7 Spellsword/4
solbergb
08-25-05, 11:40 AM Your subject line doesn't match your question.

In your houserule situation the solution is simple. Invest some skill points into Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran, Auran, Ignan and/or aquan, depending on what you want to summon. At 2 points/language it isn't *THAT* bad, esp for a wizard.

I wonder what druids summon in his game. Do they have to do speak with animals first?

Summoners can be effective, the combination of the conjuration-school battlefield control spells and the ability to put meat-shields on the table can make it very difficult for the opposition to do much to the party. It takes 3 feats to really do it well though (spell focus conjuration, augment summoning and rapid spell)
eudas
08-25-05, 11:41 AM You can summon it, you just can't order it about.

Whatever you summon will appear, and start attacking your enemies, but you can't tell the summoned fire elemental "burn their sails!" or "go for the wizard!" or whatever unless you speak its language.

eudas
solbergb
08-25-05, 11:42 AM Your subject line doesn't match your question.

In your houserule situation the solution is simple. Invest some skill points into Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran, Auran, Ignan and/or aquan, depending on what you want to summon. At 2 points/language it isn't *THAT* bad, esp for a wizard.

I wonder what druids summon in his game. Do they have to do speak with animals first?

Summoners can be effective, the combination of the conjuration-school battlefield control spells and the ability to put meat-shields on the table can make it very difficult for the opposition to do much to the party. It takes 3 feats to really do it well though (spell focus conjuration, augment summoning and rapid spell)

In your situation the spellsword also has the problem that he's not a primary caster - he's losing caster levels and higher tier spell slots to be better at fighting with a sword. (unless you just did a 1 level dip and somehow avoided losing a level getting the armor proficiencies). Summoners below max caster level tend to be weak mechanically, because the monsters summoned are only moderately useful if you get them ASAP. If you're 2 levels behind the curve, the monsters might not serve their purpose as blockers and damage sinks.
FarKadeNear
08-25-05, 11:56 AM add a level of mindbender and you won't have to worry about that anymore.

Telepathy 100ft
is a good ability for summoners
Eidolon Faer
08-26-05, 12:35 PM My group has an axiom:

"There is no problem so thorny that it cannot be solved with a sufficient number of Thoqquas."

...And I LIKE the Mindbender dodge BTW :)
Thespian
08-26-05, 01:31 PM Cast Tongues first.

BTW, I really like the summoner options listed in the Unearthed Arcana. Rapid summoning, augmented summoning and spontaneous summoning spells are three reasons to pick this up. Who needs a familiar, scribe scroll and and extra spell per level anyway!
Erudite
08-26-05, 01:57 PM I believe it was last year on this board that the ultility of summoned monsters was bandied about. The general idea is that summon monster is underutilized by players who think of the summons only as cannon fodder; plenty of creatures exist in the MM, MMII, MMIII, FF, MotP, and elsewhere who have spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that make them more valuable than one might think. Corrollax, Ether Scarab, Kaorti, Yochols, and others can save on valuable spells, especially for sorcerers and bards.

The big obstacle is your DM, who may object to you summoning such things. Really they shouldn't, but that is beside the point. UA and Dragon #302 both address this with the idea of customized summoning lists. In any game I run, we use those customized lists. We also use the idea that one summons a particular individual each time one summons.

Any summoner needs to go through the creatures in the DND books with a fine toothed comb, looking for creatures that compliment their style of play and needs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HunterKillerX3M 08-25-05, 11:29 AM	Ok Im playing a Sorcerer Spellsword in one of my friends campaign, and I based him on a summoner (specializes on summoning spells) but I recently bumped into a problem... my dm says i cant summon anything that doesnt speak any of the languages I dont know.... thats kind of hard since im Chaotic Good and the only extra language i know is Infernal and Abyssal I think... so if this is true... whats the purpose of summoning? and also does alignments matter when using summon monster spells? And I would also like to know how to make the best out of being a summoner since ive noticed that summoning isnt one of the strongest spellcasting options there are. any help would be greatly apreciated. character: Sorc/7 Spellsword/4
solbergb 08-25-05, 11:40 AM	Your subject line doesn't match your question. In your houserule situation the solution is simple. Invest some skill points into Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran, Auran, Ignan and/or aquan, depending on what you want to summon. At 2 points/language it isn't THAT bad, esp for a wizard. I wonder what druids summon in his game. Do they have to do speak with animals first? Summoners can be effective, the combination of the conjuration-school battlefield control spells and the ability to put meat-shields on the table can make it very difficult for the opposition to do much to the party. It takes 3 feats to really do it well though (spell focus conjuration, augment summoning and rapid spell)
eudas 08-25-05, 11:41 AM	You can summon it, you just can't order it about. Whatever you summon will appear, and start attacking your enemies, but you can't tell the summoned fire elemental "burn their sails!" or "go for the wizard!" or whatever unless you speak its language. eudas
solbergb 08-25-05, 11:42 AM	Your subject line doesn't match your question. In your houserule situation the solution is simple. Invest some skill points into Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Terran, Auran, Ignan and/or aquan, depending on what you want to summon. At 2 points/language it isn't THAT bad, esp for a wizard. I wonder what druids summon in his game. Do they have to do speak with animals first? Summoners can be effective, the combination of the conjuration-school battlefield control spells and the ability to put meat-shields on the table can make it very difficult for the opposition to do much to the party. It takes 3 feats to really do it well though (spell focus conjuration, augment summoning and rapid spell) In your situation the spellsword also has the problem that he's not a primary caster - he's losing caster levels and higher tier spell slots to be better at fighting with a sword. (unless you just did a 1 level dip and somehow avoided losing a level getting the armor proficiencies). Summoners below max caster level tend to be weak mechanically, because the monsters summoned are only moderately useful if you get them ASAP. If you're 2 levels behind the curve, the monsters might not serve their purpose as blockers and damage sinks.
FarKadeNear 08-25-05, 11:56 AM	add a level of mindbender and you won't have to worry about that anymore. Telepathy 100ft is a good ability for summoners
Eidolon Faer 08-26-05, 12:35 PM	My group has an axiom: "There is no problem so thorny that it cannot be solved with a sufficient number of Thoqquas." ...And I LIKE the Mindbender dodge BTW :)
Thespian 08-26-05, 01:31 PM	Cast Tongues first. BTW, I really like the summoner options listed in the Unearthed Arcana. Rapid summoning, augmented summoning and spontaneous summoning spells are three reasons to pick this up. Who needs a familiar, scribe scroll and and extra spell per level anyway!
Erudite 08-26-05, 01:57 PM	I believe it was last year on this board that the ultility of summoned monsters was bandied about. The general idea is that summon monster is underutilized by players who think of the summons only as cannon fodder; plenty of creatures exist in the MM, MMII, MMIII, FF, MotP, and elsewhere who have spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that make them more valuable than one might think. Corrollax, Ether Scarab, Kaorti, Yochols, and others can save on valuable spells, especially for sorcerers and bards. The big obstacle is your DM, who may object to you summoning such things. Really they shouldn't, but that is beside the point. UA and Dragon #302 both address this with the idea of customized summoning lists. In any game I run, we use those customized lists. We also use the idea that one summons a particular individual each time one summons. Any summoner needs to go through the creatures in the DND books with a fine toothed comb, looking for creatures that compliment their style of play and needs.