Armor and Stealth Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor and Stealth Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zaei
03-16-06, 11:09 PM This is a build I've been working on for a few weeks, and am looking for any comments. The general idea is a heavily armored stealthy fighter type. Books allowed is pretty much anything, but references are nice =)

This build also uses the UA Weapon Groups Variant, and the UA Variant classes (All of the rogue levels are swapping sneak attack for feats). And we've got a house rule so that Keen and Improved Critical stack.

Elf - Str16/Dex16(14)/Con14(16)/Int14/Wis12/Cha13
Weapon Groups@lvl1: Bows(Elf), Light Blades(Elf), Heavy Blades(Rog), Exotic(Rog)*
Trait: Quick (+10ft move, -1hp/lvl)
1 Rog Expeditious Dodge(RoW), Guerilla Warrior(HoB)
2 Rog Combat Reflexes
3 Fgt Mobility, TWF, 4 more weapon groups
4 Fgt Combat Expertise
5 Rog
6 Fgt Mounted Combat
7 DCmd (HoB)
8 DCmd
9 CoCL (RoW) Improved Disarm, Karmic Strike
10 DCmd (**,***)
11 DCmd
12 CoCL Improved Critical
13 CoCL
14 CoCL Improved Expertise (CW)
15 CoCL ITWF
16 Rog OTWF (CAdv)
17 CoCL
18 CoCL GTWF
19 CoCL
20 CoCL

* I realize Exotic has a +1 BAB requirement that I'm ignoring. If it turns out to be a problem, I'll put it in at Fgt 1
**,*** Thinking about taking Rog 4 or CoCL 2 at Level 10 (or both, at 10 and 11, in either order)

At the end, +18BAB, 2d6 Sudden Attack, 0 ACP in Mithril FP with 6 or so Max Dex, using probably 2 thinblades by the end. I know I've got an odd fighter level in there, and I'm still wondering if I should change that Rog 4 to Fgt 4.

So, any suggestions?
Surreal
03-17-06, 12:49 AM Here's a similar thread from a while back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530017
zaei
03-17-06, 01:10 AM Here's a similar thread from a while back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530017
That does look a whole heck of a lot like mine. That might even give me an excuse to go out and buy Magic of Incarnum :D

Any comments on feat choices, etc?
Dnjscott
03-17-06, 01:19 AM I always thought COCL and Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) might work well, as the DC lowers armor penalties. Also, Armor OPtimization from Races of Stone may affect your max dex? I don't recall exactly how...
Kuroi Kenshi
03-17-06, 02:18 PM Drop that third fighter level for anything else...though barbarian or ranger seems most suitable.
zaei
03-17-06, 10:39 PM Drop that third fighter level for anything else...though barbarian or ranger seems most suitable.
It's there to avoid XP penalties. Going the route I've gone, I can do 3 Rog/4 Fgt or do it the other way around. The trade off is hitpoints vs Skills and Uncanny Dodge. Since I'm dropping SA for Feats for Rogue, either way I play it leaves me at a feat dead level for one of the two.

I also noticed that I calculated BAB incorrectly in my first post, and it should be +19 at Lvl 20.
FromTheShadows
03-18-06, 09:20 AM That does look a whole heck of a lot like mine. That might even give me an excuse to go out and buy Magic of Incarnum :D

Any comments on feat choices, etc?
I believe that the latest version of my build in that thread can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8608955&postcount=35). (The old version had multiclass XP penalties, you see.) The thread that I linked to should also have a few more ideas to help you along.

I'd help more, but I've been fighting a fever on and off for about a week now, and coherent thought isn't exactly one of my strong points at the moment.
Kuroi Kenshi
03-18-06, 10:23 AM It's there to avoid XP penalties. Going the route I've gone, I can do 3 Rog/4 Fgt or do it the other way around. The trade off is hitpoints vs Skills and Uncanny Dodge. Since I'm dropping SA for Feats for Rogue, either way I play it leaves me at a feat dead level for one of the two.

I also noticed that I calculated BAB incorrectly in my first post, and it should be +19 at Lvl 20.
Aw crap. I didn't realize you were an elf. Sorry. Well, you've got 7 non-PrC levels...maybe you could do Rog3/Ftr2/Ranger or Barbarian2? No penalties that way as long as you take the third Rogue level last.
zaei
03-18-06, 12:21 PM I believe that the latest version of my build in that thread can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8608955&postcount=35). (The old version had multiclass XP penalties, you see.) The thread that I linked to should also have a few more ideas to help you along.

I'd help more, but I've been fighting a fever on and off for about a week now, and coherent thought isn't exactly one of my strong points at the moment.
I saw the thread that spawned that one, and I think getting HiPS would be absolutely beautiful... I just need to get a look at MoI.

Aw crap. I didn't realize you were an elf. Sorry. Well, you've got 7 non-PrC levels...maybe you could do Rog3/Ftr2/Ranger or Barbarian2? No penalties that way as long as you take the third Rogue level last.
I'll have to think carefully about adding in a level of Barb; Ranger doesn't work, because Combat Style turns off in medium armor (Mithril FP), so most of the benefits from CoCL and Dread Commando don't work well there (This is also the reason there aren't any Scout levels, which thematically would have gone very nicely here). 2 Levels of Barb would give me fast movement to fuel Expeditious Dodge, so I could drop that trait (-1hp/lvl is gonna hurt). On the downside, Rog is still left at a feat dead level(Feats as Fighter instead of SA), and I lose a feat overall. And I'm just not sure that barbarian levels are thematically correct for this build.

Going FromTheShadow's Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple would solve some things (lose the trait for Midnight Dodge, gain HiPS), but I drop 3 levels off of CoCL (one less point of Max Dex, one fewer bonus feat, and Corellon's Wrath). At first glance, I don't think either of those are terribly big issues, especially since this isn't a Dex based build. The feat isn't a bother, since I haven't even decided what I'd take for it.

From looking at the above, leaving Fgt 3 and taking Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple gives me a lot more.

Thanks for all the input guys, it's been helpful, more is always welcome!

*wanders off to find MoI*
Neeek
03-18-06, 01:47 PM I'd probably just go Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/DC4/CoCL10/DC5

You don't get to use the Ranger fighting style, but you don't actually care either.
zaei
03-18-06, 02:46 PM I'd probably just go Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/DC4/CoCL10/DC5

You don't get to use the Ranger fighting style, but you don't actually care either.
That drops 3 feats (UA Rogue bonus) out of the build, and I lose trapfinding/disable device (I'm the party trap monkey (I probably should have mentioned that)). The feat's I'd have to drop would probably be ITWF, OTWF, and GTWF, and at that point, I'd be better off just going THF.

I went and took a peek at Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple; Midnight dodge seems to be almost the same as Dodge, but it does give that point of essentia needed for Umbral Disciple. It might just be worth it to pour all 3 points of essentia into the Miss Chance from UD, so put that at 30%, and get HiPS. An extra 10% chance to miss against all opponents seems quite a bit better than +1 AC vs one opponent. I'll have to find out if MoI is allowed.
FromTheShadows
03-18-06, 03:46 PM I went and took a peek at Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple; Midnight dodge seems to be almost the same as Dodge, but it does give that point of essentia needed for Umbral Disciple. It might just be worth it to pour all 3 points of essentia into the Miss Chance from UD, so put that at 30%, and get HiPS. An extra 10% chance to miss against all opponents seems quite a bit better than +1 AC vs one opponent. I'll have to find out if MoI is allowed.
Midnight Dodge was meant to take the place of Dodge in feat prereqs and gain that essential point of incarnum; the only reason that I had an essentia invested in it in the earlier build was due to the feat Elusive Target from CW. If you aren't using that feat and don't have any other abilities based on the effects/targets of the dodge feat, you should probably invest all 3 points into Embrace of Shadow, like you said.
zaei
03-18-06, 04:02 PM Midnight Dodge was meant to take the place of Dodge in feat prereqs and gain that essential point of incarnum; the only reason that I had an essentia invested in it in the earlier build was due to the feat Elusive Target from CW. If you aren't using that feat and don't have any other abilities based on the effects/targets of the dodge feat, you should probably invest all 3 points into Embrace of Shadow, like you said.
Yep, that's what I figured. Since the original build I posted was using Expeditious Dodge (which also can take the place of Dodge for prereqs), I wasn't taking Elusive Target, since two out of it's three abilities only affect the opponent designated by the Dodge feat, which isn't even applicable to Expeditious Dodge.

Still, Midnight Dodge/UD seem the way to go in my case... need to see if it'll be allowed =]

Now, does anyone know how I could make Search and Disable Device either class skills across the board, or only cost 1 rank even if they are cross class?
zaei
03-18-06, 07:15 PM Ok, here's a new build that I put together this afternoon:

1 Rog 1 Expeditious Dodge, Guerilla Warrior
2 Rog 2 TWF
3 Fgt 1 Mobility, OTWF
4 Fgt 2 Expertise
5 Rog 3
6 Fgt 3 Mounted Combat
7 Rog 4 Combat Reflexes
8 DCmd 1
9 DCmd 2 Improved Critical
10 CoCL 1 Karmic Strike
11 Fgt 4 Improved Disarm
12 CoCL 2 ITWF
13 CoCL 3
14 CoCL 4 Improved Expertise
15 CoCL 5 GTWF
16 DCmd 3
17 DCmd 4
18 ?
19 ?
20 ?

Mostly a change of order, but also adding in an extra level of Fighter. Not sure what I want to do with those last three levels (Perfect for Umbral Disciple if I switch Expeditious Dodge for Midnight Dodge at level 1), or that extra feat as of yet.
Xaxor
03-18-06, 07:37 PM Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana (pg 81) makes any two class skills into permanent class skills, but you'd have to give up Guerilla Warrior or something.
zaei
03-18-06, 08:43 PM Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana (pg 81) makes any two class skills into permanent class skills, but you'd have to give up Guerilla Warrior or something.
I'll have to ask the DM (since it sort of looks like that only applies if using one of those variants, but we shall see). If it's a yes, I should be able to just shift feats up 1, and still have all of the prereqs for everything at the proper levels.

I just finished up a skill matrix through lvl 17. Without Skill Knowledge I can take one of the follow routes:
Max H/MS every level:
MS 20, H 20, Listen 11, Spot 11, Disable Dev 16, Search 16, Tumble 20
Max Search/Disable Dev every level:
MS 17, H 17, Listen 10, Spot 10, Disable Dev 20, Search 20, Tumble 9

Tumble really takes a hit in the second scenario.

With Skill Knowledge, things look nicer:
MS 20, H 20, Listen 14, Spot 14, Disable Dev 20, Search 20, Tumble 13

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zaei 03-16-06, 11:09 PM	This is a build I've been working on for a few weeks, and am looking for any comments. The general idea is a heavily armored stealthy fighter type. Books allowed is pretty much anything, but references are nice =) This build also uses the UA Weapon Groups Variant, and the UA Variant classes (All of the rogue levels are swapping sneak attack for feats). And we've got a house rule so that Keen and Improved Critical stack. Elf - Str16/Dex16(14)/Con14(16)/Int14/Wis12/Cha13 Weapon Groups@lvl1: Bows(Elf), Light Blades(Elf), Heavy Blades(Rog), Exotic(Rog)* Trait: Quick (+10ft move, -1hp/lvl) 1 Rog Expeditious Dodge(RoW), Guerilla Warrior(HoB) 2 Rog Combat Reflexes 3 Fgt Mobility, TWF, 4 more weapon groups 4 Fgt Combat Expertise 5 Rog 6 Fgt Mounted Combat 7 DCmd (HoB) 8 DCmd 9 CoCL (RoW) Improved Disarm, Karmic Strike 10 DCmd (,) 11 DCmd 12 CoCL Improved Critical 13 CoCL 14 CoCL Improved Expertise (CW) 15 CoCL ITWF 16 Rog OTWF (CAdv) 17 CoCL 18 CoCL GTWF 19 CoCL 20 CoCL I realize Exotic has a +1 BAB requirement that I'm ignoring. If it turns out to be a problem, I'll put it in at Fgt 1 ,* Thinking about taking Rog 4 or CoCL 2 at Level 10 (or both, at 10 and 11, in either order) At the end, +18BAB, 2d6 Sudden Attack, 0 ACP in Mithril FP with 6 or so Max Dex, using probably 2 thinblades by the end. I know I've got an odd fighter level in there, and I'm still wondering if I should change that Rog 4 to Fgt 4. So, any suggestions?
Surreal 03-17-06, 12:49 AM	Here's a similar thread from a while back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530017
zaei 03-17-06, 01:10 AM	Here's a similar thread from a while back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530017 That does look a whole heck of a lot like mine. That might even give me an excuse to go out and buy Magic of Incarnum :D Any comments on feat choices, etc?
Dnjscott 03-17-06, 01:19 AM	I always thought COCL and Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) might work well, as the DC lowers armor penalties. Also, Armor OPtimization from Races of Stone may affect your max dex? I don't recall exactly how...
Kuroi Kenshi 03-17-06, 02:18 PM	Drop that third fighter level for anything else...though barbarian or ranger seems most suitable.
zaei 03-17-06, 10:39 PM	Drop that third fighter level for anything else...though barbarian or ranger seems most suitable. It's there to avoid XP penalties. Going the route I've gone, I can do 3 Rog/4 Fgt or do it the other way around. The trade off is hitpoints vs Skills and Uncanny Dodge. Since I'm dropping SA for Feats for Rogue, either way I play it leaves me at a feat dead level for one of the two. I also noticed that I calculated BAB incorrectly in my first post, and it should be +19 at Lvl 20.
FromTheShadows 03-18-06, 09:20 AM	That does look a whole heck of a lot like mine. That might even give me an excuse to go out and buy Magic of Incarnum :D Any comments on feat choices, etc? I believe that the latest version of my build in that thread can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8608955&postcount=35). (The old version had multiclass XP penalties, you see.) The thread that I linked to should also have a few more ideas to help you along. I'd help more, but I've been fighting a fever on and off for about a week now, and coherent thought isn't exactly one of my strong points at the moment.
Kuroi Kenshi 03-18-06, 10:23 AM	It's there to avoid XP penalties. Going the route I've gone, I can do 3 Rog/4 Fgt or do it the other way around. The trade off is hitpoints vs Skills and Uncanny Dodge. Since I'm dropping SA for Feats for Rogue, either way I play it leaves me at a feat dead level for one of the two. I also noticed that I calculated BAB incorrectly in my first post, and it should be +19 at Lvl 20. Aw crap. I didn't realize you were an elf. Sorry. Well, you've got 7 non-PrC levels...maybe you could do Rog3/Ftr2/Ranger or Barbarian2? No penalties that way as long as you take the third Rogue level last.
zaei 03-18-06, 12:21 PM	I believe that the latest version of my build in that thread can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8608955&postcount=35). (The old version had multiclass XP penalties, you see.) The thread that I linked to should also have a few more ideas to help you along. I'd help more, but I've been fighting a fever on and off for about a week now, and coherent thought isn't exactly one of my strong points at the moment. I saw the thread that spawned that one, and I think getting HiPS would be absolutely beautiful... I just need to get a look at MoI. Aw crap. I didn't realize you were an elf. Sorry. Well, you've got 7 non-PrC levels...maybe you could do Rog3/Ftr2/Ranger or Barbarian2? No penalties that way as long as you take the third Rogue level last. I'll have to think carefully about adding in a level of Barb; Ranger doesn't work, because Combat Style turns off in medium armor (Mithril FP), so most of the benefits from CoCL and Dread Commando don't work well there (This is also the reason there aren't any Scout levels, which thematically would have gone very nicely here). 2 Levels of Barb would give me fast movement to fuel Expeditious Dodge, so I could drop that trait (-1hp/lvl is gonna hurt). On the downside, Rog is still left at a feat dead level(Feats as Fighter instead of SA), and I lose a feat overall. And I'm just not sure that barbarian levels are thematically correct for this build. Going FromTheShadow's Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple would solve some things (lose the trait for Midnight Dodge, gain HiPS), but I drop 3 levels off of CoCL (one less point of Max Dex, one fewer bonus feat, and Corellon's Wrath). At first glance, I don't think either of those are terribly big issues, especially since this isn't a Dex based build. The feat isn't a bother, since I haven't even decided what I'd take for it. From looking at the above, leaving Fgt 3 and taking Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple gives me a lot more. Thanks for all the input guys, it's been helpful, more is always welcome! wanders off to find MoI
Neeek 03-18-06, 01:47 PM	I'd probably just go Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/DC4/CoCL10/DC5 You don't get to use the Ranger fighting style, but you don't actually care either.
zaei 03-18-06, 02:46 PM	I'd probably just go Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/DC4/CoCL10/DC5 You don't get to use the Ranger fighting style, but you don't actually care either. That drops 3 feats (UA Rogue bonus) out of the build, and I lose trapfinding/disable device (I'm the party trap monkey (I probably should have mentioned that)). The feat's I'd have to drop would probably be ITWF, OTWF, and GTWF, and at that point, I'd be better off just going THF. I went and took a peek at Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple; Midnight dodge seems to be almost the same as Dodge, but it does give that point of essentia needed for Umbral Disciple. It might just be worth it to pour all 3 points of essentia into the Miss Chance from UD, so put that at 30%, and get HiPS. An extra 10% chance to miss against all opponents seems quite a bit better than +1 AC vs one opponent. I'll have to find out if MoI is allowed.
FromTheShadows 03-18-06, 03:46 PM	I went and took a peek at Midnight Dodge/Umbral Disciple; Midnight dodge seems to be almost the same as Dodge, but it does give that point of essentia needed for Umbral Disciple. It might just be worth it to pour all 3 points of essentia into the Miss Chance from UD, so put that at 30%, and get HiPS. An extra 10% chance to miss against all opponents seems quite a bit better than +1 AC vs one opponent. I'll have to find out if MoI is allowed. Midnight Dodge was meant to take the place of Dodge in feat prereqs and gain that essential point of incarnum; the only reason that I had an essentia invested in it in the earlier build was due to the feat Elusive Target from CW. If you aren't using that feat and don't have any other abilities based on the effects/targets of the dodge feat, you should probably invest all 3 points into Embrace of Shadow, like you said.
zaei 03-18-06, 04:02 PM	Midnight Dodge was meant to take the place of Dodge in feat prereqs and gain that essential point of incarnum; the only reason that I had an essentia invested in it in the earlier build was due to the feat Elusive Target from CW. If you aren't using that feat and don't have any other abilities based on the effects/targets of the dodge feat, you should probably invest all 3 points into Embrace of Shadow, like you said. Yep, that's what I figured. Since the original build I posted was using Expeditious Dodge (which also can take the place of Dodge for prereqs), I wasn't taking Elusive Target, since two out of it's three abilities only affect the opponent designated by the Dodge feat, which isn't even applicable to Expeditious Dodge. Still, Midnight Dodge/UD seem the way to go in my case... need to see if it'll be allowed =] Now, does anyone know how I could make Search and Disable Device either class skills across the board, or only cost 1 rank even if they are cross class?
zaei 03-18-06, 07:15 PM	Ok, here's a new build that I put together this afternoon: 1 Rog 1 Expeditious Dodge, Guerilla Warrior 2 Rog 2 TWF 3 Fgt 1 Mobility, OTWF 4 Fgt 2 Expertise 5 Rog 3 6 Fgt 3 Mounted Combat 7 Rog 4 Combat Reflexes 8 DCmd 1 9 DCmd 2 Improved Critical 10 CoCL 1 Karmic Strike 11 Fgt 4 Improved Disarm 12 CoCL 2 ITWF 13 CoCL 3 14 CoCL 4 Improved Expertise 15 CoCL 5 GTWF 16 DCmd 3 17 DCmd 4 18 ? 19 ? 20 ? Mostly a change of order, but also adding in an extra level of Fighter. Not sure what I want to do with those last three levels (Perfect for Umbral Disciple if I switch Expeditious Dodge for Midnight Dodge at level 1), or that extra feat as of yet.
Xaxor 03-18-06, 07:37 PM	Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana (pg 81) makes any two class skills into permanent class skills, but you'd have to give up Guerilla Warrior or something.
zaei 03-18-06, 08:43 PM	Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana (pg 81) makes any two class skills into permanent class skills, but you'd have to give up Guerilla Warrior or something. I'll have to ask the DM (since it sort of looks like that only applies if using one of those variants, but we shall see). If it's a yes, I should be able to just shift feats up 1, and still have all of the prereqs for everything at the proper levels. I just finished up a skill matrix through lvl 17. Without Skill Knowledge I can take one of the follow routes: Max H/MS every level: MS 20, H 20, Listen 11, Spot 11, Disable Dev 16, Search 16, Tumble 20 Max Search/Disable Dev every level: MS 17, H 17, Listen 10, Spot 10, Disable Dev 20, Search 20, Tumble 9 Tumble really takes a hit in the second scenario. With Skill Knowledge, things look nicer: MS 20, H 20, Listen 14, Spot 14, Disable Dev 20, Search 20, Tumble 13