Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TLStarfighter 01-11-06, 04:34 PM	Hey everyone, I am in need of the community's help. I am starting as a new character (first time playing with this DM) in a level 6 campaign. All WoTC books are available for material, 32 points point buy for stats, but classes and cash are retricted. The DM wants me to play a front line fighter of some varient, but has restricted me to only ~150GP worth of gear. Also, bard, monk, and psionic classes are off limits. So my question is how do I make a viable level 6 front line melee PC with only ~150GP budget for armor and weapons? Preferably with out using the Vow of Poverty Feat. I need help with builds that can max out AC so that I can overcome my lack of magical or even quality gear. Here is what I have come up with thus far, please feel free to critique it or post your own ideas. Human Str: 14 Dex: 16 (17 at level 4) Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Chr: 10 1) Swashbuckler, Combat Expertise & Improved Trip 2) Swashbuckler 3) Swashbuckler, Improved Unarmed Strike 4) Swashbuckler 5) Fighter, Dodge 6) Fighter, Defensive Throw & Combat Reflexes Craft Feats to get armor and weapons at 1/3rd cost. AC: Base: 10 Armor: 4 (chain shirt) Dex: 3 Shield: 2 Dodge: 1 Combat Expertise: 0-5 Max Theoretical Total: 25 Average Round: 19-20 Any thoughts on this build and its trick (free trip attempt vs targets that miss me in melee)? Any feats I am missing that would be better for increasing my AC? Thanks, TLStarfighter
PhaedrusXY 01-11-06, 04:44 PM	Clerics can be front-line fighters, and it is pretty easy to jack up their AC via spellcasting. I'd suggest a Dwarven Cleric with the War domain (makes for a more credible "front-line" fighter for roleplaying). Use fullplate and a heavy shield, and keep Magic Vestment on both of them. At the beginning of every fight, cast Shield of Faith for a Deflection bonus to AC (or use Protection from Evil, etc, if you're fighting mainly enemies of a particular alignment). The Plant domain could get you Barkskin for a natural armor bonus. I don't know of a domain with Alter Self and/or Polymorph, but if there is one, that can get you a good natural AC bonus as well (which stacks with Barkskin).
Vorlir 01-11-06, 04:47 PM	he cant afford fullplate on 150gp though that would be something to shoot for in the future
TLStarfighter 01-11-06, 04:49 PM	Clerics can be front-line fighters, and it is pretty easy to jack up their AC via spellcasting. I'd suggest a Dwarven Cleric with the War domain (makes for a more credible "front-line" fighter for roleplaying). Use fullplate and a heavy shield, and keep Magic Vestment on both of them. At the beginning of every fight, cast Shield of Faith for a Deflection bonus to AC (or use Protection from Evil, etc, if you're fighting mainly enemies of a particular alignment). The Plant domain could get you Barkskin for a natural armor bonus. I don't know of a domain with Alter Self and/or Polymorph, but if there is one, that can get you a good natural AC bonus as well (which stacks with Barkskin). I had actually considered playing a Paladin. But the problem with the Cleric and the Paladin is that they require cash to buy full plate and I will have a max of 150GP. Not to mention both classes suffer from more stat dillution that I think the Swashbuckler will. Thanks for the suggestion but I am afraid that it won't work for this campaign. TLStarfighter
Zendu 01-11-06, 04:53 PM	Yeotch he is really putting it to you isnt he. If i were you id rules lawyer up every somantic component, since it sounds like he hates non-casters. (or hopeully just wants to give you gear in game) So lets get that AC up shall we? Normally id rush for Stonewarden ASAP (con to ac is so hawt) however I think they are BaB 6 so thats out. Duelist might be nice, even if you only get 1 point of int armor, its better than nothing because you cant even play a monk. Scout might be nice, but skirmish is only 2d6 +1ac at your level. Aha! Your solution! Raptoran fighter 1/ Fighter 5 Assuming you have a reach weapon, (and preferably flyby attack and wingover) you could run in, hit and fly off without ever even risking being hit. Not to mention Diving Charge +2d6, on attacks? Yes please! Whadya think? Will he allow LA?
Zendu 01-11-06, 04:59 PM	With your stats (assuming they dont change) Id suggest scale male (50g[4,3,-4]) or maybe even hide (15g[3,4,-3]) Although i cant see you buying much of anything after weapon and armor. Maybe two cure light potions, Hide, and a greatsword or whatever your picking?
PhaedrusXY 01-11-06, 05:04 PM	Thanks for the suggestion but I am afraid that it won't work for this campaign.I don't think you understand what will work for this campaign. In a game with limited magic and money, the thing to play is the character that can create his own magic and that doesn't need money, i.e. a spellcaster. Clerics and druids are the spellcasters that can perform the role of "tank" best, and in a game like this, they'll do a hell of alot better job at it than any "tank" class. Not to mention both classes suffer from more stat dillution that I think the Swashbuckler will. Swashbuckler needs Dex, Con, and Int. Cleric needs Con and Wis. Turn Undead is entirely optional, and the cleric can magically enhance his own strength via several spells that all stack with each other. The cleric is less stat needy than the swashbuckler. they require cash to buy full plate So get the full plate later... Do you mean you're NEVER going to get any money in this campaign? If that's the case, then definitely play a druid. They don't need good stats or gear, and after level 6, they can act as the party "tank" thanks to Wildshape.
Caelic 01-11-06, 05:20 PM	I'll second that. Druid is always a good choice, but the poorer the campaign setting, the stronger it becomes. You might also possibly consider Master of Many Forms, at least for a three level dip or so. The Troll forms are full of munchy crunchy tankety goodness.
TLStarfighter 01-11-06, 06:58 PM	I think I should have included a few other points about the current campaign which may shed some light on the situation. 1) The party has played from level 1 to now level 6. The DM has yet to give any treasure save some storyline specific weapons. It seems feasible that I may never be able to afford full-plate. I specifically mentioned to the DM that the financial cap would prevent me from playing a class like a Paladin or Warrior very effectively. He told me that 100GP worth of armor is about all I can ever expect and that I should be able to find a way to make it work. 2) I must have given the misconception that this is a low magic game. I don't believe that it is. The party already has a Sorc and 2 Clerics. 3) While I would love to play as a Druid from a you break my toys and I'll break yours sort of perspective. I am not certain it would be allowed. This is a homebrew world that has no experience with magical creatures. Only PHB races and mundane monsters until just recently. The DM put a lot of time into making up special abilities for a the 4 standard class types (Mage, Cleric, Warrior, and Rogue). He is not keen on bending those to allow other classes. I'm afraid that a Druid would be disallowed for the same reason as my Bard. I was only able to get permission for the Swashbuckler by couching it as simply a dex based warrior so the warrior abilities would apply to it equally well. 4) All of the existing party have low hit points. The only melee types both have con penalties. The DM really wants me to be a high HP tank. My take on the best way to accomplish that is as a high AC build. Working from the assumption that Druid is disallowed. (i'll play one if I can but I have serious doubts) What can I play to have a viable character under the restrictions the DM imposed? Does anyone have any comments about the initial Swashbuckler build I posted? Are there some good AC feats that I somehow missed? Thanks, TL
Zendu 01-11-06, 07:12 PM	You could try for a halfling with confound the big folk, and titan fighting? Theres a feat in races of stone that lets you use your racial dodge as your dodge (+4 ac against a targetted opponent) frankly, im to lazy to go get it atm. Man this no money thing will just KILL you as a melee class. Its like playing a spellcaster with no spells. Beg your way to vow of poverty for all that is holy.
Caelic 01-11-06, 07:26 PM	Wow. I mean, I consider myself a pretty restrictive DM, but "Never going to be able to afford full plate" and "Most PHB classes disallowed" are beyond the pale even for me. Ah, well. It is what it is. I'd either go with a Cleric, or abandon the idea of high AC entirely and go with a "You hit me, I hit you back harder" build--Kharmic Strike, Sidestep, and so forth. The problem there is that your Con really isn't high enough. Bottom line: it's hard to build a tank around AC in a normal campaign. Attack bonuses are simply easier to come by than increases in AC. In this campaign, I'm afraid it's probably a lost cause...and I'll be honest, I'd tell your DM, "I can't build the character you want with the tools you're giving me." It's not reasonable for the DM to dictate your character, and then refuse to allow you all the options which might make that character possible.
swanyusd 01-11-06, 07:32 PM	Well, since your DM has a stick up his ass (sounds very similar to a problem I had a while back) and is doing this to prevent power gaming. Anyway, I think your best bet will be to shoot for the Deepwarden ala Dwarven Ranger 3/Ftr2/Deepwarden 1. At next level, you get your con to ac, which is huge. Just max out your con for now. Str is the next best thing. Dex/Cha/Wis/Int can be lower, int would be nice at 12 though to get you some more skills, but not super necessary, or 13 for combat expertise. As for items, I recommend scale male and a tower shield. You will need to take the Tower Shield Proficiency feat so as not to accrue the -2 to attacks. This nets you an additional +8 ac, with max dex of 3. Use these for stats with 32 point buy. Str : 16 Dex:10 Con:18+2(racial) +1inherent = 21 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 8-2 = 6. This, at lvl 6, nets you an AC of 18. You also get to pick 5 feats, and get endurance free. Again, I recommend Tower Shield Proficiency for one of them. If you want combat expertise, bump int up 1 higher, and drop dex or str at your leisure. You could take xotic wpn bastard sword or dwarven waraxe if you really like (both have same damage, sword is best 1 handed IMO). You also could consider using a trident, since it has reach. Or if you could take the feat gigantic weapon(which is different than monkey grip) you could use a lance 1 handed, or any other 2-handed wpns with reach 1 handed. You could easily find a horse, and boom, you are a cavalry fighter who has a solid AC. Once you get to lvl 7, your character finally becomes the TANK. Your AC will jump to 23, and at 8 it will be 24. Dex becomes irrelevant at this point. There are other PrCs out there that make dwarves even better tanks (they net you DR/- ) but I dont remember what they are.
Balthanon 01-11-06, 07:45 PM	With two clerics in the party, you might want to go the barbarian/hit point route, rather than AC in this case. As Caelic said, attack bonuses scale a lot faster than AC, but damage, particularly with mundane foes, generally isn't quite as lopsided compared to hit points. In my home game, the main/only tank had an AC of about 18 all the way up to nearly 16th level--he survived by being able to dish out a lot of damage and take almost as much. (Particularly with a heal or two thrown his way.) Given the changes that your DM has introduced, prestige classes may be hit or miss, but barbarian sounds a lot like what he's looking for anyway and it fits on the opposite side of the Warrior spectrum from Swashbuckler. Your primary risk as a barbarian is that you're going to die after your rage runs out, but that is much less likely with two healers available to fix what ails you.
TLStarfighter 01-11-06, 07:52 PM	I just thought, in fairness to my DM, that it would be good to point out that he is not so much a hard ass as he is brand new. And he has this vision of how he wanted the campaign to go and everything I want to play seems to break it. However, he is trying and I still want the game to be fun for him. My hope is to make a character that is completely viable to play through level 6+ on my 150GP budget, plus what ever special magic weapon I may get assuming that pattern holds, and hope that he either tones the fights accordingly or decides to start handing out treasure. I think that the theoretical 25 AC I can hit, which will go up to 26 at level 7, is passable. At level 9 I can pick up Improved Combat Expertise which will let me apply my full BaB to my AC. I think it would be possible to keep up with the to-hit bonuses of mobs assuming I don't mind if I can't hit them. I can just go into turtle mode and use bluff or diplomacy to taunt the BBEG into attacking me. Also, everytime a target of my dodge ability (which can be up to two mobs starting at level 7) misses me I get a free trip attempt with Defensive Throw. I should be able to get quite a few trip attempts and thus quite a few extra attacks. Not to mention setting up bonuses for my allies. Is there any reason why this wouldn't be feasible assuming the DM isn't just out for a TPK? Is there anything else I should do to improve my AC or my chance to trip? Thanks, TL
PhaedrusXY 01-11-06, 07:55 PM	Man this no money thing will just KILL you as a melee class. Its like playing a spellcaster with no spells. Yes, this pretty much sums it up. Non-spellcasting melee characters are BY FAR the most dependant on magic items and money. Your DM is really giving you the shaft forcing you to play one under these conditions. If you can beg some buffs off the spellcasters it won't be quite as bad, but they'll probably be reluctant to dish them out, as they'll be using them on themselves. Zendu's suggestions are decent, though. As Balthanon is saying, go with a high hit point build and ignore AC. I'd say Dwarven barbarian, take Roll with It a bunch of times. Also take Elusive Target. You'll be easy to hit, but they won't be able to use Power Attack on you, and without it won't do much damage to you because of your Damage Reduction. You might throw in a couple levels of Deepwarden for Con to AC, too. Edit: Oh yeah, and as Caelic said, Karmic Strike is a must. :P
Faithless the Wonder Boy 01-11-06, 08:12 PM	Another thought would be to simply play a warforged with the Adamantine Body feat at first level. There, you now have adamantine full plate with a significantly better armor check penalty for the cost of a single feat. And that feat also happens to be a pre-req for the Warforged Juggernaut, which would allow you to get quite a lot out of less money. My advice, then, if you don't want to do any of the above things mentioned, would be to play a warforged juggernaut. Definitely go for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, and maybe toss in Imp Sunder/Combat Brute in there, too. For how to best go there, fighter/barbarian is probably one of the better ways to go. Take one of the totem variants from UA that loses fast movement (which you won't get with adamantine body anyways) and gains something fun. Ape gets a climb speed and Power Attack as a bonus feat at level 3 (in place of fast movement and trap sense), so you could go Ape Totem Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Warforged Juggernaut 1 as a decent starting point in the game. Or, Fighter 4/(barb or barb variant 1)/Warforged Juggernaut 1 if you want to front-load your feats a little more. 1. Ape Totem Barb 1 - Rage, climb speed, Adamantine Body 2. Ape Totem Barb 2 - Uncanny Dodge 3. Ape Totem Barb 3 - Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush 4. Fighter 1 - Imp. Sunder 5. Fighter 2 - Leap Attack 6. Warforged Juggernaut 1 - Armor spikes, expert bull rush, Powerful Charge, reserved, Shock Trooper
cvazi 01-11-06, 08:52 PM	Of course another oute you could try is incarnum. That will give you magical weapons and armor class boosters.
Zendu 01-11-06, 08:56 PM	im considerd decent on CoB woot ^^. Ya seeing as how everything but the core books are allowed and you have almost no cash.... Cleric of War and Healing cheese is looking like the only way youll be able to tank. A suggestion DM to DM, changing rules can be fun, but you should leave it to experianced dms, right now just focus on the basics and mechanics. And use prefab sessions so you dont get swarmed with "describe this room" "uhh its a 30'x30' tavern basement with a sign that says adventure --->" http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b
Stickboy2323 01-12-06, 12:14 AM	How about this one: Poison Dusk 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 19(+2 racial, +1 lv 4 boost), Con 16(+2 racial), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8(-2 racial) Feats: Multiattack (1), Weapon Finesse (B), Dodge (3), Combat Expertise (FB), Mobility (FB) BAB +5, HD 5d10+15, Low-Light Vision, Speed 30, Chameleon Skin, Hold Breath, Poison Use, three natural attacks, Grace +1, Insightful Strike. AC = 10 base + 1 size + 3 natural +4 Dex +1 dodge +(0-5) combat expertise = 19-24 in no armor. If you don't care about the chameleon skin ability you can always slap a chain shirt on the lil' guy for an addition +4 armor bonus and the defensive fighting option which stacks with dodge and combat expertise would give you another +2 for a grand total of 30 AC. Of course your attack bonus would be something like +0,+0,-2 on a full attack with this option but you probably would not get hit that round. If you drew an AoO due to movement your mobility would kick your AC up to 34. Sure you'll lose a little bit of your base weapon damage from using natural attacks instead of weapons but you do have an extra attack to make up for it. Plus, the visual of a small sized unarmored, unarmed lizard rushing into battle in front of the rest of the party is just cool. Poison Dusks rule.
PhaedrusXY 01-12-06, 12:37 AM	What the hell is a Poison Dusk? I doubt he can use it. The campaign sounds quite restrictive.
Endarire 01-12-06, 12:40 AM	It's the poison dusk lizardman from Monster Manual III. -EE
Bounces 01-12-06, 12:56 AM	You could do a dromite as well...best race for +1 LA I have seen in a while... Essentually you can do all that the poison dusk can do AC wise, but you get a type of energy resistance and a ranged attack for free once per day as well (nice utility in that if you don't want to be wasting arrows) minus to strength hurts, but if you are going a dex based fighter then it shouldn't be to bad.
GaffeR 01-12-06, 01:20 AM	Another option, especially if you can get some of your caster buddies to make you big, is to build a spiked chain tripper. That way, rather than hoping your enemies miss you, you can make sure they never get the chance. It'll also work to protect those "Squishy" buddies of yours. Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip are necessities. If you're limited to core weapons, might as well take Power attack and go the strength route. If you can get a chain you can TWF with (Blunt chain from SS, or iirc, the drow scorpion chain from RoE), you can take the dex route and max out your number of attacks. Focus on grabbing yourself as much reach as you can and knocking your opponents on their asses before they can get anywhere near you. Sure, you'll be vulnerable to ranged fire, but hopefully your casters can deal with it. I'd suggest a fighter/barb mix to grab your feats and a large race. Check out THIS thread for more trippy ideas (ha.. ha ha...)
Endarire 01-12-06, 01:24 AM	Ask your DM about mundane moneymaking methods such as Crafting items to sell. -EE
the_great_mighty_nerd 01-12-06, 01:35 AM	im not going to claim originality with this but use a druid: find a random club on the ground, use shilegiah on it then produce flame as a level 6 you can do this a few times a day and its a +1 weapon that deals 1D10+1D6+1+str damage (x1.5 for club in two hands) a small minority of the creatures will live to hit back and you can heal yourself anyway. if you need a boost druids can buff themselves too. pwn3d.
GaffeR 01-12-06, 01:51 AM	im not going to claim originality with this but use a druid: find a random club on the ground, use shilegiah on it then produce flame as a level 6 you can do this a few times a day and its a +1 weapon that deals 1D10+1D6+1+str damage (x1.5 for club in two hands) a small minority of the creatures will live to hit back and you can heal yourself anyway. if you need a boost druids can buff themselves too. pwn3d. A. Shillelagh produces a 2d6 club. B. Produce Flame can only be damaging if hurled or used as a melee touch attack. Shillelah, spikes, and brambles on the other hand.. :schemes: