Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Crane 03-28-06, 02:21 PM	I'm trying to decide which casting class is optimal for a combat gish build using the standard Ftr 2/(caster)/Spellsword 5 initial progression and assuming a starting stat of 16 in the primary casting ability. So far, I'm leaning towards Sorceror for the greater amount of spells per day and the ability to use what they want, when they want, assuming they know it. On the other hand, the spells needed as a gish tend to be reasonably predictable based on your fighting style. If I went Wiz and kept True Strike and Enlarge Person readied a few times daily, odds are I'd still have most of what I needed (leaning towards a reach-polearm charge build). Wizard also has the upside of offering infinite potential spells, which expands flexibility in general for those times when you need to have Knock, Identify, or some other utility spell available. Since it uses Int, skill rank prerequisites for PrCs are easier to attain as well, particularly given the Spellsword's all-Knowledge-as-class-skills benefit. Arcane Strike is a good way to compensate for spells that turn out to be unneeded, so even that facet of things isn't as much of a blow against taking Wizard. Does anyone who has experience playing this sort of build have feedback to offer on other benefits/drawbacks of each choice?
Psifon 03-28-06, 02:45 PM	OK, here is the build I am considering: Human CL: 17 BAB: 16 Lvl Class & Level 1 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Cleave, Extend Spell 2 Wizard 1 Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard 2 Practiced Spellcaster 4 Wizard 3 5 Wizard 4 6 Fighter 2 Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes 7 Spellsword 1 Ignore Spell Failure 10% 8 Eldritch Knight 1 EWP: Longaxe 9 Eldritch Knight 2 Precise Swing 10 Eldritch Knight 3 11 Eldritch Knight 4 12 Eldritch Knight 5 Iron Will 13 Incantatrix 1 Persistent Spell 14 Incantatrix 2 15 Incantatrix 3 Extrordinary Spell Aim 16 Incantatrix 4 Quicken Spell 17 Eldritch Knight 10 18 Eldritch Knight 6 <Feat> 19 Eldritch Knight 7 20 Eldritch Knight 8 You have probably seen this build, or something like it on one of my threads. He has variable reach (longaxe), he has Charge-tastic combo effects (Power Attack, Leap Attack & Wraithstrike). At higher levels he has persistant wraithstrike and an antimagic shell that doesn't effect me. You can do a similar thing with a basic Fighter 1/Sorcerer 5 build. This loses you a point of BAB. If you don't take the four levels of incantatrix, then you get this back. The big thing you lose with sorcerer is that it cost you an extra feat to quicken your spells, although you can mitigate this loss by taking spells like spell matrix and imbue familiar with spell ability. Hope this helps.
00_Whupass 03-28-06, 02:49 PM	Do you want a response from the prospective of pure mechanical optimization, or what I really think? Because my first and foremost answer is whichever best fits the concept of the character as he levels and evolves. Like the character I'm pondering right now Currently Pal1 after Pal4 I'm thinking I'll multiclass into diviner, because it fits the flavor despite the obvious CHA synergy if I were to go Sorcerer. From a purely mechanical perspective there is still room to consider both Wizard and Sorcerer depending on several factoers. First, are you the party's primary Arcanist? If so versitility will be essential, making Wizard the clear superior, however generally speaking the Gish makes a terrible primary arcanist since his goal is to focus his spells on buffing himself and increasing his melee combat prowess, not waste precious spell slots on Identify and the like. A second point that can favor the wizard is PrC spellcasting requirements, fewer levels of wizard are required to qualify for PrCs requiring the ability to cast spells of a particular level, therefore reducing the number of levels expended on Low BAB classes. Scribe Scroll is of minor benefit to the Gish, only really useful for storing those out of combat utility spells mentioned earlier, and not really useful in combat which is where the Gish really wants to shine. Due to the narrow focus of the Gish's spell selections it is most often the Sorcerer (specifically the Battle Sorcerer if allowed) that is most mechanically advantageous in Gish builds. Furthermore the Sorcerous Gish can better make use of feats like Arcane Strike through his greater number of spells per day. The one level delay does retard his ability to meet PrC requirements however as long as the build hits BAB 16 at 20th you're almost universally better off securing the extra Caster Level. I hope this has been helpful.
Khazra Reborn 03-28-06, 02:50 PM	If its a social campaign, i suggest sorcerer because of cha being diplomac an other social skills key statistic. I take it your going for a fighter who buffs themselves over a full blown gish (you have 2 levels of fighter and 5 of spellsword)? Overall wizard is generally better for bonus feats and gaining new level spells faster. However, if you could do a build that gets diine grace (witchhunter and soldier of light take least away from your casting) then sorcerer is better. My preffered gish build is sorcerer6/knightphantom10/soldier of light1/spellsword3 BaB17, caster level 17 cast in light armour (medium mithral :D ) cha to saves
Adrian_Crane 03-28-06, 02:51 PM	@ Psifon: I actually frequently read threads regarding your builds, since we seem to be going for mostly the same end result. You're using the persistent AMF trick with this build too, correct? @ Khazra: I'm debating the 5 in SS. Right now I'm considering it for the extra channels/day. EDIT: Whoops! Sorry about that Whup, didn't realize I had 3 replies all at once o.0 Thanks for the tips. And as far as mechanics, I'm playing an elf, so Wizard is more convenient (due to avoiding multiclassing penalties) mechanically. Sorceror seems to fit his personality better, though, which is part of why I'm having a hard time making up my mind.
amalcon 03-28-06, 03:20 PM	Wizard Pros: -Gets higher level spells sooner -Better spell availability -Can take "low level only" spells such as Sleep, without a permanent penalty -High Intelligence means many skill points -Has an easier time getting into some prestige classes -Better Arcane Strike user (the spontaneous mechanic is better for a prepared caster, plus you have more total spell levels if you're a specialist) Sorcerer Pros: -No need to sit around and figure out memorizations OOG (huge!) -Pretty much always able to cast whatever spell you want -Access to draconic feats -No need to be a specialist to get lots of spells per day Make of this what you will. The first benefit of being a sorcerer, running more smoothly out-of-game, is what puts them over the top for me.
SpartanMD 03-28-06, 04:08 PM	@ Psifon: I actually frequently read threads regarding your builds, since we seem to be going for mostly the same end result. You're using the persistent AMF trick with this build too, correct? @ Khazra: I'm debating the 5 in SS. Right now I'm considering it for the extra channels/day. EDIT: Whoops! Sorry about that Whup, didn't realize I had 3 replies all at once o.0 Thanks for the tips. And as far as mechanics, I'm playing an elf, so Wizard is more convenient (due to avoiding multiclassing penalties) mechanically. Sorceror seems to fit his personality better, though, which is part of why I'm having a hard time making up my mind. What's teh persistant AMF Trick? What's Precise Strike? :confused:
Adrian_Crane 03-28-06, 04:13 PM	What's teh persistant AMF Trick? What's Precise Strike? :confused: Persistant AMF = Persistant Antimagic Field (Incantatrix lets you persist it) using Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude yourself from it so it doesn't affect you or your gear. Precise Strike is a feat from...I think Eberron, although don't hold me to that. It lets you ignore cover bonuses to AC, which is nice for reach weapons since you can poke from behind an ally without penalty, or reach past the front line of enemies to get at a softer target behind them.
MechaboyDos 03-28-06, 04:15 PM	I prefer Sorc for all the reasons given above. And as you said yourself, a Gish really only needs a handful of spells to be effective in combat, so the Sorc's lack of spells known isn't a big deal. I always try to keep a few utility spells like Knock, Fly, Passwall, etc, but for the most part you want buffs and one or two ray or orb spells. Also, Sorc is nice for the social situations due to your Cha. Even though they don't get Diplomacy as a class skill, the Cha bonus can still help you out. And with Bluff as a class skill, you can always play the boisterous and boastful warrior who brags about all of his accomplishments and his combat prowess. And then if you get called on it you can actually back it up, hehe.
ninjarabbit 03-28-06, 04:31 PM	Either one will work fine but I lean slightly towards the wizard if able learner is available. For example a ranger1/fighter1/wizard4/spellsword5 with able learner will have a ton of class skills.
DTFarstar 03-28-06, 04:56 PM	*cough*Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 5*cough* 2 spell lists for scrolls, Divine Grace, Smite 1/day, small lay on hands, Detect Evil at will, if you don't mind the alignment. If you do, then Paladin of Freedom(or whatever alignment variant suits your fancy). I personally prefer access(as scrolls) to the Paladin spell list, smite, and Divine Grace to 2 feats.
Lilt 03-28-06, 05:22 PM	*cough*Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 5*cough* 2 spell lists for scrolls, Divine Grace, Smite 1/day, small lay on hands, Detect Evil at will, if you don't mind the alignment. If you do, then Paladin of Freedom(or whatever alignment variant suits your fancy). I personally prefer access(as scrolls) to the Paladin spell list, smite, and Divine Grace to 2 feats.IIRC Paladin isn't counted as a spellcasting class until it reaches 4th level, thus it isn't able to use scrolls until that point. I think that must've been a houserule in a game i played in. Go about your business, nothing to see here...
Psifon 03-28-06, 06:09 PM	@ Psifon: I actually frequently read threads regarding your builds, since we seem to be going for mostly the same end result. You're using the persistent AMF trick with this build too, correct? Hells yeah! :D The big advantage of persistant spells is that they end up allowing you to bank magic by casting it before bedtime. Of course persistant wraithstrike is over the top better than just about any other combat buff in the game. It is an 8th level spell, though I get to metamagic it out of a 2nd level spell slot for the price of a skill bonus item +10 (10K gp). Note that to get the persistant antimagic shell, I will need a MUCH better skill bonus item, as the DC on this spellcraft check is 54! I probably won't be able to do this until I can cast an 8th level spell and have access to Moment of Prescience. Until then, I will actually have to memorize the Antimagic Field and cast it in combat. The group I am playing with has no history of keeping groups going into even the low teens, so this is mostly an academic excersize at this point. Personally, I find that the game only really starts getting good after about 10th level, so I am hoping to change the local culture a bit, and help this group get more comfortable with high level play (I am a DM in an alternate campaign on the same night - me and my DM take turns). As such, the combo of power attack, leap attack, greater enlarge person, wraithstrike, antimagic field, and a valorous weapon enhancement, is an untried but theoretically uber combo: Get large, charge the foe with a full BAB power attack, use a good massive damage two handed weapon (longaxe), PA damage is multiplied by x4 thanks to leap attack, using a touch attack due to wraithstrike, I turn off all your magic when I close, and still double damage due to my valorous weapon enchantment. Gross uberness all around. Once I get persistant wraithstrike, my AoO's start to get really good damage too, for the simple reason that ALL of my attacks all day long are full BAB power attacks, resolved as touch attacks. Gross and abusive? I don't think so. Sure, my damage output will be good, but it will still be totally eclipsed by a Frenzied Burserker. I can't do any of the battlefield controll tactics like a spiked-chain fighter, and I won't even get to channel spell. It's a good trick but all it does is massive damage, and even though I am doing excellent damage per hit, I have seen many builds who get to swing their weapon a LOT more often than I do. What I am hoping to get out of this build is excellent damage, high mobility, and a fair number of magical combat-tricks. We shall see.
00_Whupass 03-28-06, 06:40 PM	IIRC Paladin isn't counted as a spellcasting class until it reaches 4th level, thus it isn't able to use scrolls until that point. I think that must've been a houserule in a game i played in. Go about your business, nothing to see here...Really? Are you sure about that? Paladin has Caster level 0 until 4th level and then has caster level = Paladin level/2. I can't check the SRD right now since I'm at work, and I don't often play spellcasting classes but I thought scroll use had a caster level requirement. Hmmmm.
Lilt 03-28-06, 07:34 PM	Really? Are you sure about that? Paladin has Caster level 0 until 4th level and then has caster level = Paladin level/2. I can't check the SRD right now since I'm at work, and I don't often play spellcasting classes but I thought scroll use had a caster level requirement. Hmmmm.Hmm. Possibly. I went back on it after reading the 3.0 FAQ entry: Can a 1st-level paladin or ranger use a wand of cure light wounds? Or must the character have enough levels to actually be a spellcaster. The requirement for using a spell trigger item (such as a wand) is having the spell stored in the item on your class spell list, not having the ability to cast the spell (see page 175 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). Since cure light wounds is on both the paladin and ranger class spell lists, paladins or rangers of any level can use wands of cure light wounds.Now that's talking about wands, which are slightly different, but I figured the same rules applied. Caster level of 0 is theoretically enough to make a check to cast the spell using the rules for scrolls, but IIRC the actual thing that bars them from using scrolls is the fact that they have no caster level. Can anyone remember the source for that? I thought it was in the rules of teh game or FAQ but I can't find it.
00_Whupass 03-28-06, 08:28 PM	Alright, I think I've found the ruling in question. Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can (see Arcane Magical Writings) To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it. To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic. Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll. So normally a paladin would have difficulty using divine scrolls easily, at all since spellcraft is not a class skill, however a multiclassed Paladin/Sorcerer could quite possibly have enough ranks in spellcraft to decipher and use the scrolls, not to mention access to the read magic spell.
Thanatos42 03-28-06, 09:03 PM	Wizard Pros: ... -Can take "low level only" spells such as Sleep, without a permanent penalty ... At 4th, 6th, 8th, and so on, sorcerers get to forget an old spell that's 2 lvls lower than the highest they can cast and replace it with a new spell of equal level. Really helps to throw off the penalty, provided you don't make a lot of low-level only picks.
stembolt 03-28-06, 11:41 PM	If you want armor go “Knight Phantom” (note: this build is not mature, lots of room for improvement) 1 Wiz 1 Still Spell 2 Fig 1 Fighter Feat 3 Wiz 2 4 Wiz 3 5 Wiz 4 6 Wiz 5 7 KP 1 8 SS 1 9 SS 2 The feat that lets you wear medium armor At level 9 you can wear Mithral Fullplate with a large Mithral shield with 0% ASF. Now finish out SS to get all its powers.
catharz 03-29-06, 12:26 AM	For an armored gish, wizard is almost always better simply because only wizards can be Runesmiths. The dwarf Fighter/Wizard/Runesmith/Eldritch Knight/Incantatrix Has the advantage of full armor use at the lowest possible level, few feat requirements, and all of the advantages of being a dwarf (which are great for a wizard gish: +2 Con, stability, etc). If you aren't planning on playing a runesmith, the playing field evens a bit. I'd still go with wizard because I find gish very feat-hungry, and because I like skills. Your own mileage may vary.
nittanytbone 03-29-06, 02:28 AM	In armor, you're only casting spells that (A) have no somatic components or (B) are stilled or (C) have a long duration. Using still spell on a majority of your castings sucks a huge number of resources, so most of your spells will be A and C. As a Gish, your spells are there merely to support anbd supplement your combat abilities. Thus, you don't need lots of utility spells. You need spells without somatics or that have huge durations that affect you in combat. Its a pretty slim list, so you might as well be a sorcerer -- being able to throw off 3 False Lifes or 4 Displacements or 6 truestrikes in a day is huge bonus for you as a warrior. Thus, I vote solidly for Paladin 2/sorcerer6/PrC of your choice.
JosephKell 03-29-06, 02:56 AM	Wraithstrike is much better than True Strike. If you use a Wizard, Extend spell is awesome for you. Persistant could also be a boost. Persistant Blades of Flame is a 5th level Swift action spell. It is possible to get a spell list that has no Somatic spells and is still perfectly fine for a Gish. P.S. Spelldsword and Eldritch Knight both have no feat requirements.
Adrian_Crane 03-29-06, 04:28 AM	Get large, charge the foe with a full BAB power attack, use a good massive damage two handed weapon (longaxe), PA damage is multiplied by x4 thanks to leap attack, using a touch attack due to wraithstrike, I turn off all your magic when I close, and still double damage due to my valorous weapon enchantment. Gross uberness all around. I see one problem. If you're excluding yourself from the shell but using a *reach* wepon, doesn't it extend into the AMF unless you're using it within 5 feet? :thinks: *cough*Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 5*cough* 2 spell lists for scrolls, Divine Grace, Smite 1/day, small lay on hands, Detect Evil at will, if you don't mind the alignment. If you do, then Paladin of Freedom(or whatever alignment variant suits your fancy). I personally prefer access(as scrolls) to the Paladin spell list, smite, and Divine Grace to 2 feats. Hmm, I actually had discarded the Pally idea from consideration due to the LG requirement, but forgot about the different alginment variants. Thanks for bringing that up. :D
Psifon 03-29-06, 10:59 AM	I see one problem. If you're excluding yourself from the shell but using a *reach* wepon, doesn't it extend into the AMF unless you're using it within 5 feet? :thinks: I don't think so. I think that the weapon is considered to be "me" for the purposes of extrordinary spell aim. So It would be excluded from the field whether I was reaching with it or not. Similarly, if a titan used a reach weapon to strike me from outside the field, while I was in the field, (even if I was not excluded) then the weapon would get it's full magical bonus. This is because what determines the status of the weapon is the status of it's weilder. Similarly a character standing inside the field who attacks me with a weapon does not have his weapon suddenly become magical again when it strikes someone who is outside the field. This is the same sort of logic that applies to the notion that you can't disarm or sunder a reach weapon unless you threaten the weilder. Just reaching the weapon is not enough. Note that there is an exception to this rule: Fire Shield (and similar spells) states that if you attack a protected character with a reach weapon then you don't take damage. Note though that even here, the spell specifies a reach weapon and not simply a weapon that is being weilded by a character who has reach. Ranged weapons are an exception to this rule as well, because they actually leave the weilder's person. This principal is evident in many places in the rules such as enlarge person, which specifies that objects that leave the person return to their normal size. Again, there are specific exceptions to this principal, such as shapechange, and these are specifically stated in the rules. The rules are silent about how all this interacts with magical bows and magical arrows, but I would suggest that the part of the bow/arrow combo that is outside of the antimagic shell should get to retain it's bonus (representing better accuracy, etc.). For example: Ranger Rick fires a +1 arrow of giant bane from his +3 composit longbow. Under normal conditions this weapon does: 1d8+3 or 1d8+2d6+5 vs giants. Now if he fires it from the inside of an antimagic shell at a target outside the shell, he loses the bonus on his bow, but retains the bonus on the arrow. So his damage is: 1d8+1 or 1d8+2d6+3 vs giants. If he fires it from the outside of the antimagic shell at a taget at the inside of the shell, he retains the magic on the bow, but loses the magic on the arrow. So now his damage is: 1d8+3 or 1d8+3 vs giants Finally, firing the weapon through an antimagic field when both the archer and the target are outside the field would have no effect on the weapon at all.
stembolt 03-30-06, 11:36 PM	I don't think so. I think that the weapon is considered”me" for the purposes of extraordinary spell aim. This is one of those places raw is silent. Quite sloppily the feat does not mention the most obvious case (then again it is in line with the quality I have grown to expect from FR products, possibly superior to). The intent is obviously that you can cast a spell like ice storm or fireball right on top of yourself. For other uses the spell is quite hinky. Like darkness, if you are not effected by darkness how does that work? You are surrounded by darkness but somehow light is generated inside the effect so you can see? Or what about grease? The spell creates real grease that does not affect you? Spiked growth? Web? Wall of fire? In every one of those cases the effects are nonsensical. So what makes sense? For instantaneous spells the effect is straight up. And that’s where I would leave it. In most cases the duration spells are just too good. Web would rule if you could navigate it with impunity. That is a level 4 spell alone (freedom of movement). Then again another way to go would be to consider the effect like spell immunity, though that might be a little powerful for the level adjust. The thing is, we have a situation where one use of the power (antimagic field) is just completely awesome. So awesome it actually breaks most of the theoretical rules of the game. I have to say it is unbalanced. Similarly, if a titan used a reach weapon to strike me from outside the field, while I was in the field, (even if I was not excluded) then the weapon would get it's full magical bonus. No, according to the spell description if the weapon is in the anti magic field, it looses its properties. The spell is entirely based on what’s in the field. If a giant is bulls strengthed he has this spell on the parts of himself outside the field. Just reaching the weapon is not enough. Actually, just reaching the weapon is enough to sunder. The thing is unless they are holding it in front of you daring you to hit it, you are going to have to ready an action. Though I agree that when a spell says “you” it means “all of you.” In summation: While theoretically interesting, it is not practical min/maxing.
Poder Miserável 03-31-06, 12:21 AM	my own char is a gish, lv30+ with 4 levels on spellsword, but i think that nowadays with so many ways to get rid of ASF you should focus on cool abilities to use as a gish or ways to improve your bab and saves much more than ways to use armor without ASF, look at this: template feycrafted from DMG 2(or something like that)= -5%ASF twilight = -10%ASF Mithryl = -10%ASF BlendedQuartz = -20%ASF So actually you need no ASF reduction to wear fullplate and large shield.
Adrian_Crane 03-31-06, 05:03 AM	my own char is a gish, lv30+ with 4 levels on spellsword, but i think that nowadays with so many ways to get rid of ASF you should focus on cool abilities to use as a gish or ways to improve your bab and saves much more than ways to use armor without ASF, look at this: template feycrafted from DMG 2(or something like that)= -5%ASF twilight = -10%ASF Mithryl = -10%ASF BlendedQuartz = -20%ASF So actually you need no ASF reduction to wear fullplate and large shield. I'm actually looking at SS 5 more for the Channel Spell ability than anything else, as I've likewise been repeatedly coming to the conclusion that ASF is a problem you can buy your way out of. And Stembolt, interesting points on the feat and AMF field. I don't plan to go that route, simply because it's a touch too much fromage for my tastes. :D
Psifon 03-31-06, 05:21 AM	Like darkness, if you are not effected by darkness how does that work? You are surrounded by darkness but somehow light is generated inside the effect so you can see? Well you are excluded from the area, but you are still looking through the area, so that doesn't really help you much. Or what about grease? The spell creates real grease that does not affect you? Spiked growth? Web? Wall of fire? In every one of those cases the effects are nonsensical. So what makes sense? For instantaneous spells the effect is straight up. And that’s where I would leave it. In most cases the duration spells are just too good. Web would rule if you could navigate it with impunity. That is a level 4 spell alone (freedom of movement). Then again another way to go would be to consider the effect like spell immunity, though that might be a little powerful for the level adjust. You are making this way too complicated Stembot. You (or another creature) are excluded from the area of effect of the spell. In these cases, this works just as if you were standing on the edge of the area of effect. If you cast a grease around yourself and then walk through the grease, you effectively leave the hole you made in the area, and are subject to the spell. Just as if you stood on the edge of any other area of effect, and walked into it. Nothing about the ability says that you can re-aim the spell after you cast it. In the case of eminations this is different. Since the area eminates from you and moves with you, the "hole" in the field moves with you too. The thing is, we have a situation where one use of the power (antimagic field) is just completely awesome. So awesome it actually breaks most of the theoretical rules of the game. I have to say it is unbalanced. Eh, I've played with this ability before (It used to be the exclusive territory of archmages, but now there are two feats (Extrordinary Spell Aim & Selective Spell) that allow anyone to do it. It is pretty cool, but it also has it's problems. Most notably it blocks line of effect. You also can't benefit from friendly magics easily. Of course, Gish make better use of this than most, but a fighter with a ring of spell storing and a Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer Cohort and who knows Selective Spell can use it as well. No, according to the spell description if the weapon is in the anti magic field, it looses its properties. The spell is entirely based on what’s in the field. If a giant is bulls strengthed he has this spell on the parts of himself outside the field. Actually the spell specifies that if any part of the CREATURE is outside the area of effect then that part of the creature is uneffected by the antimagic field. This begs the question, what happens to a human who is POA'd into a titan, who shares one square of his space with the AMF. Who knows? Ask your DM. As far as a melee weapon weilded by a creature outside an AMF who is striking a foe inside the AMF, you MUST need to go by the creature weilding the weapon and not the creature being struck. If this was not true, then enhancement bonuses wouldn't add to your attack roll, they would subtract from your enemy's AC. Also, items would not benefit from your full saving throw bonuses when you held them. Things like resistance bonuses would not apply. Posessions are treated as part of the creature who has them. Whatever conditions effect the creature effect it's possesions. Finally, I make the arguement of parsimony. The rules favor the most simple interpretation. If two creatures are fighting across the border of an antimagic field, simple parsimony dictates that the one inside the field has his magic turned off, and the one outside the field doesn't. Even though their weapons are both crossing the boundries constantly as they engage in combat, the abstract rules of the game dictate that it is where you are STANDING that determine what area of effect you are in, not where you are REACHING. Actually, just reaching the weapon is enough to sunder. The thing is unless they are holding it in front of you daring you to hit it, you are going to have to ready an action. Again this is not true. Frankly I am not sure where you are getting this. I suppose that if the creature is holding his weapon out for you to sunder, this would actually be assisting your efforts, granting a +2 to hit, and giving the weapon an effective dex of 0. This I suppose I would allow. To make any other sunder attempt you need to make an opposed attack roll. To make an attack roll you need to threaten your enemy, NOT his weapon. A character with a reach advantage can also trip, sunder or disarm without provoking an AoO, because the opponent can't reach to conduct the AoO. Even if the opponent choses to do a sunder attempt. As proof I offer this quote from the FAQ: provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all? Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you. Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples. If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt). You will note that that last part was a house rule, and not RAW.
Poder Miserável 03-31-06, 05:34 AM	I'm actually looking at SS 5 more for the Channel Spell ability than anything else, as I've likewise been repeatedly coming to the conclusion that ASF is a problem you can buy your way out of. Spellsword and Raunmathari battlemage are my favourite gish classes too bad Raumathari battle amge didnt make through 3.5 or epic =( Its from unaproachable east and it has a different channel spell ability as a free action. each even level gets one of the sudden metamagic feats and has bonuses to caster level and spell DCs while holding his sword. Evenmore they have use magic device as a class skill :cool:
ShadeSeraph 03-31-06, 08:17 AM	I know that it isnt an usual choice for a gish, but a bard - Sublime Chord would be a good idea... with Battlecaster and practiced spellcaster you could use 9 level spells with no arcane failure with medium or ligth armors (and mithral heavy armors, by the way) and get a final caster level of 20. Something like this would work: 1 Bard Battlecast 2 Bard 3 Bard Iron Will 4 Bard 5 fighter (wathever you want) 6 SpellSword Dogde 7 SpellSword (wathever you want) 8 SpellSword 9 DragonSlayer (wathever you want) 10 EldritchKnigth 11 SublimeChord 12 SublimeChord practiced spellcasting 13 EldritchKnight 14 EldritchKnight 15 EldritchKnight (wathever you want) 16 EldritchKnight 17 EldritchKnight 18 EldritchKnight (wathever you want) 19 SpellSword 20 SpellSword Base attack +18, CL 16 (+4 with practiced spellcasting or the song of the SC), good fort and will saves, and a lot of other abilities, including bard song, channel spells, casting with shield (without paying extra money), immunity to fear... Moreover, it doesnt need any special race, thougth a spellscale would be a good option for the extra cha, the temporal metamagic feats and the possibility to take accelerated metamagic, but the con penalty hurts... (spellscale dragonborn, where? changing metamagic feats for some wings or senses... mmmm). Another option would be half-elf for soothing voice At last, if you dont care too much about base attack, you could change some levels in EK for sacred exorcist, for turning (divine power, divine shield...) and other goodies, or incantatrix, or wathever you want
Khazra Reborn 03-31-06, 11:14 AM	where can i find blended quartz? Is it a special material (ie non stackable with the 10% from mithral)? The knight phantoms cast in light armour is pretty awesome. Throw in battlecaster and your at mithral fullplate :D. The ability to make your weapon brilliant energy 10 times a day is also nice. A further advantage of wizard is that PaO gives the int of the new form. Play a kobold wizard up to 5th then pay to be PaOed into a sarruhk by an NPC caster for almost all your money. Bingo, you now have good physical stats, some NA and an intelligence of 30.
Ethren 03-31-06, 12:05 PM	I'm trying to decide which casting class is optimal for a combat gish build using the standard Ftr 2/(caster)/Spellsword 5 initial progression and assuming a starting stat of 16 in the primary casting ability. In order to answer the first question, IMO it depends on what else is in your party. If you have a Wizard, then go Sorcerer. If not, then go wizard. I'm playing a Ftr2/Wiz4/Sps5/EK3 at the moment. When the party wizard doesn't show up, the party relies on me to provide spells that I normally wouldn't memorize (i.e. Rope Trick, etc). When he does show up, I can switch to my Gishy spells. Oh, and if you go Sorcerer, I'd mix in Paladin 2, not Fighter 2. Good luck, and don't forget to Arcane Strike/Wraithstrike/Power Attack often!
stembolt 03-31-06, 07:08 PM	You are making this way too complicated Stembot. You (or another creature) are excluded from the area of effect of the spell. In these cases, this works just as if you were standing on the edge of the area of effect. If you cast a grease around yourself and then walk through the grease, you effectively leave the hole you made in the area, and are subject to the spell. Just as if you stood on the edge of any other area of effect, and walked into it. Nothing about the ability says that you can re-aim the spell after you cast it. In the case of eminations this is different. Since the area eminates from you and moves with you, the "hole" in the field moves with you too. I didn’t make up the feat, how can I be making it complicated? Finally, I make the arguement of parsimony. The rules favor the most simple interpretation. That’s still interpretation. If you are interpreting it could be anything. The rules are in fact silent. Like with the following: In these cases, this works just as if you were standing on the edge of the area of effect. If you cast a grease around yourself and then walk through the grease, you effectively leave the hole you made in the area, and are subject to the spell. Just as if you stood on the edge of any other area of effect, and walked into it. Nothing about the ability says that you can re-aim the spell after you cast it. If you were the DM, this would be a way to call it. Your interpretation, the way to make it work. Again this is not true. Frankly I am not sure where you are getting this. I suppose that if the creature is holding his weapon out for you to sunder, this would actually be assisting your efforts, granting a +2 to hit, and giving the weapon an effective dex of 0. I can ready an action to sunder a reach weapon when the person attacks me with it. I don’t have to reach "them" to sunder their weapon.
Psifon 03-31-06, 08:28 PM	I can ready an action to sunder a reach weapon when the person attacks me with it. I don’t have to reach "them" to sunder their weapon. That's a fine assertion Stembolt. What rules are you evoking that support this claim?
Eidolon Faer 03-31-06, 11:55 PM	Getting back to the original topic, It depends on how you intend to use the character. For a Sorcerer type, there are quite a few interesting possibilities for charisma synergy, such as the Goad feat and Mirror Image, or the Frightful Presence / Daunting Presence feats. And, of course, Paladinhood or Blackguardship. Wizards, OTOH, get more powerful spells faster, have better skill points available, and are more magically-flexible. Any roguish Gish, such as a Daggerspell Mage is best served as a Wizard. Either way, I am NOT a fan of taking more than a single level of the Spellsword class. Channel Spell simply is not good enough to warrant the lost casting levels.
Psifon 04-01-06, 12:50 AM	Either way, I am NOT a fan of taking more than a single level of the Spellsword class. Channel Spell simply is not good enough to warrant the lost casting levels. You know, I sort of think you might be right there. Could you say more about why you think this? For my own considerations, I think that chanel spell is less about adding a spell to your weapon damage as it is about adding weapon damage to your spell. That is to say, it is a move action to activate it. Sure, you can store it for hours, but when you actually USE the spell, it will almost always be as part of a single attack for the round. After all, you probably close with an enemy more than they close with you. And if the DO close with you, then you get no choice about who you are discharging the spell into. Finally, since it effects the next creature struck, you either cast the spell ahead of time, and have NO control over who it effects, or you cast it in combat, and now you have used up a move action to chanel it, so you are only getting one attack for the round, and can't move at all. Frankly the whole thing seems rather cumbersome. On the plus side, it is a way to bank spells and thus effectively get more actions off in the round. I am just not sure it is worth two (or more) caster levels.
mod5000 04-01-06, 09:32 AM	Someone mentioned Runesmith earlier; a nice combo for wizzies to automatically make ALL your spells Stilled and Silenced is taking both Geometer (CA) and Runesmith (RoS). Prolly looks fairly cool, having a dwarf walking around with all these geometric runes on his armor ^_^.
stembolt 04-01-06, 02:24 PM	That's a fine assertion Stembolt. What rules are you evoking that support this claim? Seriously? Look, I know you are not an idiot. When someone attacks you you can reach the weapon, hence you can sunder it. Or would you like to discuss how many eyes a human can have according to the rules? Or what happens when you die?
Psifon 04-01-06, 06:26 PM	Seriously? Look, I know you are not an idiot. When someone attacks you you can reach the weapon, hence you can sunder it. Or would you like to discuss how many eyes a human can have according to the rules? Or what happens when you die? As far as I know all special attacks require that you make an attack roll. These attack rolls require that you reach the WEILDER of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Frankly I agree that your concept makes sense, but since when did making sense have anything to do with D&D rules?
stembolt 04-02-06, 04:23 AM	As far as I know all special attacks require that you make an attack roll. These attack rolls require that you reach the WEILDER of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Frankly I agree that your concept makes sense, but since when did making sense have anything to do with D&D rules? The DnD rules always make sense. Sunder is an opposed attack roll, not a "to hit" roll.
Psifon 04-02-06, 12:58 PM	What's your point?
stembolt 04-02-06, 10:24 PM	As far as I know all special attacks require that you make an attack roll. These attack rolls require that you reach the WEILDER of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Sunder is an opposed attack roll, not a "to hit" roll. What's your point? Beats me, I was referring to your assertion.
Eidolon Faer 04-03-06, 08:24 AM	You know, I sort of think you might be right there. Could you say more about why you think this? For my own considerations, I think that chanel spell is less about adding a spell to your weapon damage as it is about adding weapon damage to your spell. That is to say, it is a move action to activate it. Sure, you can store it for hours, but when you actually USE the spell, it will almost always be as part of a single attack for the round. After all, you probably close with an enemy more than they close with you. And if the DO close with you, then you get no choice about who you are discharging the spell into. Finally, since it effects the next creature struck, you either cast the spell ahead of time, and have NO control over who it effects, or you cast it in combat, and now you have used up a move action to chanel it, so you are only getting one attack for the round, and can't move at all. Frankly the whole thing seems rather cumbersome. On the plus side, it is a way to bank spells and thus effectively get more actions off in the round. I am just not sure it is worth two (or more) caster levels. If you want a mechanic for wasting spells to add damage to a weapon, take Arcane Strike. It lasts for your entire iterative full-attack sequence AND it increases your chance to hit. If you want some mechanism for adding spell effects to your weapon strikes, take Daggerspell Mage levels. Their ability to channel touch spells through their weapons does not have a harshly-restrictive limit on uses per day, AND you get to convert touch spells to ranged spells without taking Reach Spell or paying the two-level shift. You just throw your dagger. As for channeling non-touch spells, you're better off casting them normally at the beginning of the fight and thus forcing your enemy to close with YOU unless he wants to be fireballed and magic missiled until you get bored or run dry. That way HE takes the move action and YOU get a full attack. And there are ways to defeat Charge-based opponents as well. Frankly, a Rogue 2 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Daggerspell Mage 10 / Spellsword 1 is a far more viable way to go about getting spells funneled through your weapon attacks AND free quickened spells, if you've decided tossing away caster levels is okay. There's just no upside to the Spellsword that makes it worthwhile past a dip. Yes, that first level of it is really sweet. Anything more, however, is a waste.
Psifon 04-03-06, 09:25 AM	Wow, I see your point. Daggerspell Flurry is a much better ability in every way, and while it costs you 3 points of BAB to get there, you also get 3d6 of sneak attack and a lot of other sweet abilities. Thanks for pointing that out.
Adrian_Crane 04-03-06, 10:14 AM	If you want a mechanic for wasting spells to add damage to a weapon, take Arcane Strike. It lasts for your entire iterative full-attack sequence AND it increases your chance to hit. ... Frankly, a Rogue 2 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Daggerspell Mage 10 / Spellsword 1 is a far more viable way to go about getting spells funneled through your weapon attacks AND free quickened spells, if you've decided tossing away caster levels is okay. There's just no upside to the Spellsword that makes it worthwhile past a dip. Yes, that first level of it is really sweet. Anything more, however, is a waste. Hm. Good case for not going 5 SS. Not sure if daggers are my thing, though.
serow_#R 04-03-06, 11:14 AM	a Rogue 2 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Daggerspell Mage 10 / Spellsword 1 just a question: becasue of the nature of the daggerspell mage class abilities progression, won't this mean that between levels 7 to about levels 11 or so (assuming u enter DM asap), u're kinda... a little lacking? it gets great after 11 or so, but there's like a lull period in the middle. guess that's what the caster levels are for?
Eidolon Faer 04-03-06, 01:30 PM	The build I posted was minimal-cheese. Practiced Spellcaster will easily shave two or more levels off the Daggerspell Mage entry requirements. And a Rogue 2 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 3 / Daggerspell Mage 1 is about the weakest point in the entire progression. You're going to be a fighter/rogue type with minimal self-enhancement magic at the beginning of your career. You can also blow off Rogue 2 and get in another level of Wizard, but I like the evasion. And, seriously, this character can hold his own as a skillmonkey even at the worst point in his power curve. At level 7 or 8 you'd take your spellsword dip and get yourself some seriously-enchanted armor. And after that it is smooth sailing.