Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arphaxad 03-30-05, 12:44 AM	Herein lies my first real attampt at a compendium for anything. (In 3.5) I have seen people of all sorts of experience play archers, and I have come to the conclusion that archers require specific tactics and abilities to be successful. I have seen very few pull off a good archer that is anything other than a drag on the party. I myself rarely play few archers, but by observation and simple reading I will share the tactics I have learned. While archery may be something any newb thinks he can pick up instantly, making a good archer requires thought and in depth understanding of the rules. Making an archer at low levels is something that is relatively easy to do, but at higher levels the same tactics will just not cut it. DR is the archers bane, and a well prepared archer must take into account every DR, it is just not an option not to. How to over come Damage Reduction. Option 1 power attack When a power attacking fighter runs into something with DR he just power attacks for a little more with his two handed weapon. This is simply not an option for his ranged cousin, unless he is a peerless archer. I highly recomend the peerless archer from the FR book silver marches. A 3 level dip is almost required to be an effective archer. Option 2 Get very little to add up If you do not have access to peerless archer, you may not be completely out of luck. This second option basically asks you to get something to add to your little 1d4-1d10 (depending on bow) which will never break higher level DR by itself. There are many suboptions in this cateogory, and they can work together if you want them to. Suboption 1 specialize I know how generally despised weapon specialization is around here, but I submit that it may represent a much more significant source of damage to a archer than to a two-handed weapon figher. I do not suggest going more than 4 levels of fighter, as greater weapon spec is a complete and utter waste if you can avoid it. I would argue that 4 levels of fighter can be a good thing for an archer build. Suboption 2 be strong in the way of archery Strength bows can easily represent a greater source of damage than specialization, and there is no cap to this damage. Although they can be pricey, they are a good and consistent source of damage at higher levels. This also gets into stats a little bit, while dexterity is absolutely key (or wisdom if you have zen archery from complete warrior) strength is a close second, followed by a secondary stat based on your choosing of your secondary party fuction. Suboption 3 your friends are there for a reason If you do a search for cleric archers you will find that the topic has been fairly popular, and there are many good builds for these characters. These folks primarily rely on the fact that there are good buff spells that can make anyone a good archer. A simple greater magic weapon spell cast by your party wizard will save you lots of gold, just be sure to buy him a lesser rod of extend as a gift to keep it going for most of the day (24 hours a day at 12th level). This will save you lots of money in the long run, and help you do lots of damage in the long run. A bless weapon from your local paladin can go a long way to allowing you to bypass dr on a crit threat. If you are a cleric with a decent caster level already, divine favor is a must. If your wizardy friend has a flame arrow memorized you may be much in luck in that regards. Suboption 4 be sneaky The scout has become a popular choice for this cateogory. Skirmish when combined with manyshot can be quite mean. Also there's the ever popular order of the bow initiate whose tactics work quite well with the scout's. Essentially your plan should be to keep on the move to get the skirmish dice, and spend the standard to manyshot and get the ranged precision, and while I think the dice only add to one shot it will still be a good amount of damage. Another possible path involves rogues and the peerless archer, where you get sneak attack dice. The basic principle to this method is to have an insane hide and take the -20 to your hide check to remain hidden. Manyshot does not help these folks because it only gives the sneak attack to the first attack, which really makes it better to full attack or remain hidden. option 3 spend the cash Although your friends can be very helpful in this field, they will probably not spend 10 rounds buffing you to make you a full combat machine. At higher levels I beleive it is within your right to demand a greater magic (which is why is suggest the "gift" of a lesser rod of extend) Flame arrows may also be do able due to their 10 min/caster level duration. The best tactics available to you require you to know every type of DR and be prepared for it. This is why greater magic weapon is so important, because your resources must be spent on making your bow holy, chaotic, lawful, unholy, bane, disruption, shocking, thundering, ect. The alignments are incredibly important for bypassing DR, the rest are just gravy. Also ammunition is quite important. You should know and have in your quiver every type of DR bypassing ammunition you can afford. Scarabs of golem bane might be a good option in this regards, although it does not help in every situation. Be prepared. Also greater Bracers of Archery can be nice, +1 to damage for an archer is significant. Gloves of Dex are required, along with a belt of giants strength these are key in hitting and doing damage. Summary Clearly the best way to bypass DR is to have the the right material/or alignment, but you will get caught without the right DR bypassing weapon or ammuniton some point in your career. Also you may not have the cash to do these things, so you may have to rely on class abilities to overpower DR. At low levels especially strength is a large part in doing enough damage to break DR, a strength bow should be a early buy. Eventually despite your best efforts you will shoot feebly at some construct/or outsider. This brings me to my second point Have a secondary function
arphaxad 03-30-05, 12:44 AM	While some large power attacking fighters will be able to get away with having the sole responsibilty of standing in the way and beating things up, you do not have that luxury. Archers can dish out significant amounts of damage with a good build and wise spending of money, this is true. But even the wildest dreams of a good archer are nothing compared to the wildest dreams of a brutish fighter. For just what a good archer build can do, I commend to you kbsnowowl's archer builds. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604 Many of these are 3.0 but you get the point, you can get good damage with a good build and tons of prep spells, although the builds assume quite a lot is happening the archer's favor. Yet there will be some nights where you can shine in such a manner, and there will be games where you are convinced that the DM hates you because of all the uncrittable enemies, and also much later in your career, there will be the heavy fortification armor that can really make you look useless. This of course is why you have spent a ridiculous amount of money making your weapon+ many d6. But still that comes quite a bit later in an archers career. A good archer needs to have a secondary party function to be a valuable member of said party. Options for Secondary functions Lets face it archers really peak in mid levels, big ugly fighters have it in low to mid levels, and spellcasters have it in higher levels. This is of course why cleric archers are possible, and quite popular. Cleric archers are able to be useful the whole time without really giving much up. To increase your effectiveness as a character and not in a theoretical game stuck at one power level, you will need a secondary fuction. While you may disagree, I find that I prefer to have a secondary function as an archer. When doing this you have two main choices open to you. Epic level archers can be powerfully weak, especially when things have hundreds if not thousands of hit points. You may find yourself relying on a secondary function more and more regularly at higher levels. Option 1 gish it up Just as the gish is to standard melee combat it can be to archery. A Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/spellsword 1/e-knight 10 is a great way to have some self suffiency in spell casting, have a bunch of attacks and have 8th level spells, and no spell failure in a mithril chain shirt. It is a good career path and will serve you well the whole time. Your frineds will never complain as long as your dropping high level spells. This also provides great synergy with ray spells, as you will have point blank and precise somewhere along the line. It also covers up ealy weaknesses of wizards with archery. I will not cover cleric archers in detail, as they are not primarily or even equally distributed archers, they are clerics with feats. Although they can still use the tactics if they wish. Option 2 the path of the skill monkey At first level difficulty classes are so easy anybody can roll to get them. At higher levels things can be much tougher, for the unskilled. This is where the specialist shines, and I personally beleive that skill monkeys can be opporessivly brutal at higher levels due to the fact that people have to put ranks to even have a chance to detect you. I'll probably post my exemplar archer builds later on, but I''ll quickly explain the theory. The archery tree is so limited that you can have most of the important feats before tenth level, ie point blank, precise. This leaves a lot of room for a secondary fuction. Your party will appreciate some modicum of comabat ability and absolute excellence in the area of skills. Rangers also fall under this category, you fill the role of scout and archer, make sure that things you pick as your favored enemy are immune to crits, +8 damage is a lot for an archer. Rogues and scouts also belong here, rogues should use their hiding abilites to get sneak attack and keep getting it at higher levels, scouts don't really care whether you can see them or not, and do damage running around. But Rangers, rogues, and scouts are all completely viable in and out of combat. For rogue/fighers I once again suggest peerless archer. While I suggest cragtop archer (races of stone) for more figher/ranger types. I also feel that while the fighter styled archer has it's place, I don't like it for a whole build. That's one reason archery is great for the above mentioned characters, the only real way to do it properly requires cold hard cash and a few common feats. It also makes for a more enjoyable and well rounded character in my opinion, and makes it enjoyable from level 1-infinity. I guess it fits my particular idiom you could say.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 12:45 AM	Spells to consider PHB true strike (true strike power shot with a blessed weapon they better pray you don't roll a 20 or 19 if you have improved crit range) Bless weapon (pal 1) Greater magic weapon haste (especially if you have not intention of moving) divine favor ( If you have the cash, you can UMD a high level scroll) Dispel magic and greater (take that wind wall! Cast it or UMD it) flame arrow fly (to get some real battle field control) dim door( get away and then plink em' as they rush to get over there) heroism and greater ( who can resist more bonuses?) cat's grace bull's strength invisibility (more for rogueish types) scorching ray or disintigate (if you've get sneak attack use it!) gust of wind (to get rid of those pesky clouds) feats, the usual point blank precise far shot mulitshot greater precise shot rapid shot shot on the run Complete divine blessed aim brambles (if you can talk your DM into letting you use arrows made entirely out of wood) recitation (bonuses mmmm) divine agility (somewhat useful) weapon of the diety (if you worship a diety with a favored weapon of a bow) improved blink feats zen archery complete arcane orbs (of all sorts) blink greater Brilliant Blade!!!!! Complete adventurer sniper's shot!!! (oh just wait, cragtop archer +assassin, I'll find a way) sniper's eye!!! (these spells are just asking to be UMD'ed by normal rogues) critical strike sonic weapon war cry hawkeye Arrow mind guided shot,and swift (seriously people look at some of these spells, they are almost neccessary) exacting shot vine strike haste, swift arrow storm (OMG) foebane golem strike distract assailant players guide to faerun hunter's mercy exalted deeds feats ranged smite evil (makes the archer paladin possible) exalted smite sanctify martial strike sacred strike nemisis I'll add some more stuff this weekend. I really think those spells from complete adventurer have yet to be fully abused, and there is good potential there.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 12:46 AM	Important items that no archer should be without DMG darkwood or mithril buckler anarchic enhancement axiomatic enhancement holy enhancement unholy enhancement bane brilliant energy flaming frost merciful (since you can't normally choose to subdue with arrows) spell storing wounding items the oathbow slaying arrow sleep arrow rod of extend lesser (for the spells on you) scrolls of good archery spells belt of giant's strength bracers of archery lesser and greater cloak of resistance (for those pesky will saves) eyes of the eagle gloves of dexterity pale green ioun stone pearls of power quiver of ehlonna scarab of golembane luckstone ammunition adamantium cold iron alchemical silver complete warrior blood seeking enhancement disarming exit wound explosive knockback burrowing arrow
arphaxad 03-30-05, 12:50 AM	cleric 7 sacred exocist 10 contemplative 3 by funny slaughter http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=242136 common gish fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/e-knight 10 any race with a decent int and dex take you point blank shot and precise weapon focus, and then focus on spells sorc gish fighter 1/sorc 6/spellsword 1(or skip it if you want)/e-knight 10 a more spontaneous version arphaxad's patented skill monkey archers ranger 4/bloodhound 8/exemplar 8 should be a fair archer with 18 bab, good saves, ect. You need good int and wisdom for this build also for the dwarf who refuses to make a reflex save ranger 3/fighter 2/ deepwarden 2/peerless archer 3/cragtop archer 5/ deepwood sniper 5 In the end you win. Full bab. 1 range increment in the low to mid 200's before magic, and can shoot around 2,000 feet as a full round action. Then you start power attacking and a have X4 critcal plus poison, ouch. and the requirements for the PRC's overlap heavily the cragtop assassin rogue 3/fighter 2 (stagger levels then buy some skills twice)/ assassin 10/ cragtop archer 5 snipers eye+ snipers shot+ horizon shot =I win 7d6 of sneak attack at half a mile is nice
Mr. Dog 03-30-05, 01:36 AM	From Wizard's Website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats) (It's at the bottom) Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. --- So... For 39,205 gp, one can have masterwork arrows forever, which are your choice of silver, adamantine, or cold iron (This is assuming your DM lets you pay for all three in one quiver). That overcomes metal-based DR. Then you need ghost touch, which is accomplished by having a bow made of Serren (Book of Exalted Deeds). Then all you need is sure striking, a mere +1 enhancement. Now you can overcome any DR except DR/epic with ease. Having bane of a few decent types can help overcome epic DR, as it increases the effective enhancement bonus by 2. I recommend Magebane, if you can get it (Complete Arcane), as lots of creatures at higher levels have at least one arcane spell like ability or the ability to cast as a sorcerer. Construct and/or Undead bane make for easy extra damage versus the normally hard-to-hurt types for archers. A Serren +1, Sure striking, magebane, undead bane, holy bow is not that expensive (total bonus +6), but against an (evil aligned) undead with any arcane spellcasting or spell like abilities, you're dealing 1d8+6d6+5+strength bonus and any other bonus damage. Per arrow. Even works on incorporeal undead.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 01:40 AM	Thanks for pointing that out to me, I had never seen those before. If the DM allows it, that quiver is a necessary buy.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 02:42 AM	I fully plan on adding items, more spells, and builds. But that will take a while and be this weekend at least. I'm going to try to be somewhat comprehensive.
cyberpunks 03-30-05, 05:32 AM	Note that a 8th level Artificer using Spell Storing Item, or a 7th level Consecrated Harrier can use the Arrow Storm spell.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 10:43 AM	It's a pretty good spell from how I read it, althought to be broke you need to combine it with snipers shot. I wonder if a rod of extend would be able to pull it off? Consecrated harrier has it's place in the archer's book, I'm not sure about artificers or bards though. Anyways as you can see, this thread is starting to take shape, so I thought I'd give it a little bump to keep it a afloat
UMiskatonic 03-30-05, 11:12 AM	The key to a bard/archer is Craft Arms and Armor. With that one feat, you can MAKE a +2 bow, +2 arrows, and all types of bane arrows, at 6th level. Whistle while you work, and do yet more damage. Bard/archer also nicely fills the secondary role that arphaxad mentioned. Bards usually have excellent people skills, and could also have respectable sneaky skills if desired. Cheers, UMiskatonic
arphaxad 03-30-05, 11:23 AM	The key to a bard/archer is Craft Arms and Armor. With that one feat, you can MAKE a +2 bow, +2 arrows, and all types of bane arrows, at 6th level. Whistle while you work, and do yet more damage. Bard/archer also nicely fills the secondary role that arphaxad mentioned. Bards usually have excellent people skills, and could also have respectable sneaky skills if desired. Cheers, UMiskatonic I think archery may be a good path for bards, espcially if you get a good prestige class. Also some of those spells are on the bard list, which can be nice. Also since you really need two or three feats to call yourself an archer, bards may be a decent choice. I think archery also synergizes well with their class abilities, ie light armor so the need for a high dex.
UMiskatonic 03-30-05, 11:31 AM	"I think archery may be a good path for archers." Well, no one will disagree with that. Did you mean bards, by chance?
solbergb 03-30-05, 01:09 PM	Archers should be the people in the party who get past special materials DR. An archer who lacks arrows of each type of metal allowed is not doing his job. They'll have trouble with alignment DR. Make the cleric rack align weapon..by the time you need it, 2nd level slots won't be a big deal. A holy bow is very nice, but at 18k you're talking early teens usually. Archers are like monks they get MANY attacks, and unlike any other warrior type can get their full attack most every round. You want stuff that synergizes with that approach. You don't do it in one blow, so you need to have a plan for DR and ALSO for very high armor class (an archer who isn't hitting is a waste of space). This is one reason I like quickdraw on an archer. #1 you get your first volley off sooner than the archer who has put his bow away for social reasons. #2, you can toss holy water for DR/evil, oil or acid for DR/adamantine spell-immune golems or swarms, hand axes for DR/slashing, clubs or hammers for DR/bludgeon. I agree that archers want to be strong unless they're some kind of arcane trickster type relying on rays, sneak attacks and greater invis for their damage. Waiting for a belt of strength is a recipie for being unhappy in levels 1-10, just start out with as high a strength as you can stand, preferably 18 (so you never have to spend a copper piece on raising your strength again, it can all go into your bow) Some people take a level of barbarian and maybe extra rage to get away with strength 14 and still use the bigger bows. Weapon spec isn't a bad feat on characters who get a lot of attacks. Archers are in this category. There are enough good archery feats now in the various splatbooks that a L12 fighter can fill up all his feats on archery and do pretty well, so even greater weapon focus/spec isn't a total waste of time. +2 to hit and +4 damage is very very expensive if you try to pay for it by upgrading the bow. In the very lowest levels, archers would do well to just throw things (if they are the strong archer advocated above) and tank. Until they have both precise shot and rapid shot and until they can afford a +4 str masterwork comp longbow, using a bow is a waste of their talents. Doing 1d6+5 with a javelin under 30' with a move and attack is better than doing 1d8 with a longbow at 60'. Archers are useless if they don't hit, so things that add plusses to hit should be valued nearly as much as damage boosters. That's one reason some of the new spells (guided shot) and feats (woodland archer) are so good, they take away situations where you normally miss or have massive penalties and turn them into hits. A strong archer with a +1 bow does respectable damage vs DR5 as early as level 3. The same archer at level 6 with weapon spec can do pretty well even vs DR10, if he stays at close range. But mostly he shouldn't have to. He should be carrying stuff that penetrates DR, or high AC, even if it means he's doing 1d6+1 damage per hit instead of 1d8+9. If you get 3-4 attacks, it adds up. No archer will do very well vs DR 15+, by the time you are into that range you need help from equipment or spells to overcome it. Archers also have special issues with being underwater and with sundering/disarm/trip. You need a plan for the former and good defensive positioning to avoid the worst of the latter. Most archers multiclass into a lot of classes that don't provide will saves, so barring the occasional occult slayer or pious templar archer, the will save will be the suq. Carry potions of prot evil to help with the dominate. Accept that you'll be paralyzed/confused/whatever some of the time.
arphaxad 03-30-05, 01:09 PM	"I think archery may be a good path for archers." Well, no one will disagree with that. Did you mean bards, by chance? yes I did, and it has been fixed.
solbergb 03-30-05, 01:15 PM	I think archery may be a good path for bards, espcially if you get a good prestige class. Also some of those spells are on the bard list, which can be nice. Also since you really need two or three feats to call yourself an archer, bards may be a decent choice. I think archery also synergizes well with their class abilities, ie light armor so the need for a high dex. The big issue with archery for bards is feat starvation. There is serious synergy with both the bardsong and the spells (after haste and inspirational boost and bardsong, damn near anyone with a bow and rapid shot is gonna be a good archer) To get into PRC's you tend to need a lot of archery feats. Just as an example, I've seen a nice arcane archer design that was something like bard8/arcane archer9..but that build didn't get rapid shot until level 9! Not an "archer" at all really until the mid levels. If you want to be an archer from level 1, and you want to be a bard you want to be human, just so you can have the holy trinity of point blank, precise and rapid shot by level 3. Then if you want to PRC you get weapon focus at level 6 and hope the other requirements aren't feats.
UMiskatonic 03-30-05, 01:49 PM	I still stand by the bard/archer, but you do have a point about feat starvation. Luckily, there's a simple fix. (two, actually) Bard 8/Fighter 2 Bard 8/Ranger 2 Either of these will get you more archery feats, and increase your horribly bad fort save by +3. And, you still have 10 levels of PrC to take.