Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 07:02 PM	I have to say the Arrow Demon from the Monster Manual III intrigued me for a while, and I focused on how to make a strong exploitation of the form. For those who don't know, it's a medium Outsider whose extraordinary special attacks allow you to wield bows one size category larger, fire bows in close combat without provoking AoOs, make AoOs with bows, and wield two bows at a time. The quickest route to domination in archery with this form is the Psionic Sun Elf Demon Archer, whom I give you below: Sun Elf Egoist 8 Feats - Composite Longbow Proficiency (racial, among others), Otherworldly (level 1), Overchannel (psion 1), Point Blank Shot (level 3), Expanded Knowledge: Expansion (psion 5), Rapid Shot (level 6) Vital Powers: Metamorphosis, Expansion (from feat), Offensive Prescience. Helpful Powers: Inertial Armor, Bolt, Defensive Precognition, Vigor (to help buffer the Overchannel damage), Offensive Precognition. The gist is you Overchanneled Metamorphosis (manifester level 10) into an Arrow Demon (it has 10 HD, you're an Outsider from Otherworldly). Manifesting Offensive Prescience for insight bonuses to hit and Bolt for magic ammunition is recommended; you can Overchannel on both for +4 bonuses in each. You can then augmented Expansion into Huge size. This eats up your ranged attack bonuses something painful, but does tremendous damage as you are making 4 shots in a round with Gargantuan arrows. If the foes are harder to hit, only expand for one size category, or don't expand at all. You can scale the amount of attacks you make (choosing whether or not you use Rapid Shot, or Symetrical Archery, etc.) and add even more damage with mighty composite longbows (your Strength will be quite high) and Offensive Prescience. Simply put, this is the strongest archer I can think of at that level; he can match the Cleric's armor with Inertial Armor and Defensive Prescience, and can shoot in close quarters, something only the Archivist could do only if he gets Arrow Mind from a ranger. Now this is not the strongest character by far in the long run. That will go to Artificers (I dread the Arrow Demons with Giant Size running) and Archivists eventually (Arrow Storm with DMed Persistent Divine Power and Polymorph?). I think the very strongest will eventually be the Kineticist/Archivist who goes into Mystic Theurge and Sacred Exorcist. It takes him longer to get all he needs, but eventually he'll have Divine Metamagic Persistent the Polymorphing into the arrow demon, Divine Power, and Divine Favor, plus all the nice Ranger archery spells (who wants Arrow Storm to hit every foe in your range increment twice?) and Expansion too. Make it nicer by using Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal on yourself so you use your Intelligence modifier to hit instead of Dexterity. Nipping some criticisms in the bud: Yes, Metamorphosis and Polymorph (as based off of Alter Self) say that "a body with more limbs does not grant the ability to make more attacks". This is true for the Arrow Demon; you cannot use all four of its claw attacks, nor can you wield four daggers at a time, or two quarterstaffs, or whatever. However, the Arrow Demon's Symetrical Archery is an extraordinary special attack, which you do gain from Metamorphosis and Polymorph, and that's what grants the two for one shots. So no the body of the Arrow Demon doesn't give you more attacks, Symetrical Archery does. Some people take the interpretation that size increases from Polymorph to not stack with size increases from other spells that state they don't stack. I disagree with that, however, it's a moot point since a sun elf is Medium and so is the arrow demon. Plus, you are perfectly within RAW to manifest Expansion in a body other than your own. So that will never come up. Ideas? Comments? I'm amused by how the ability to assume this form is a stronger way to perform archery than most feats, spells, or PrC abilities.
Nazzareth 10-25-05, 07:49 PM	Now if you found a way for a thri-keen to turn into a Arrow Demon, it could solve some of the multiple attack issues, multi-tasking is a nice feat. An insectile creature with multi-tasking could get off three manyshot or gtr manyshot volleys per round. The insectile template could be added to your elf. A multi-tasking arrow demon could get four manyshot or gtr manyshot volleys per round. What if you also had girallons blessing on the arrow demon, how would that interact with Symetrical Archery.
Caelic 10-25-05, 08:08 PM	Is Metamorphosis not bound by the same hit dice clause as Polymorph? Psionics is the one thing I simply won't touch...old prejudice.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 09:16 PM	Now if you found a way for a thri-keen to turn into a Arrow Demon, it could solve some the multiple attack issues, multi-tasking is nice feat. An insectile creature with multi-tasking could get off three manyshot or gtr manyshot volleys per round. The insectile template could be added to your elf. A multi-tasking arrow demon could get four manyshot or gtr manyshot volleys per round. What if you also had girallons blessing on the arrow demon, how would that interact with Symetrical Archery. Why would you want to? It would only allow you to use multiple melee weapons with Arrow Demon form, and using melee weapons as an AD is kinda like using a handgun to fight zombies when you have a double-barreled shotgun and chainsaw. Less effective, and ignores the more stylish and powerful option. A thri-kreen might as well fight four-weaponed in his own form. You still need two hands per bow. Being something like a thri-kreen doesn't give you any more ability with an Arrow Demon's archery. I'm not sure how Girralon's Blessing would work. Maybe a third bow. Is Metamorphosis not bound by the same hit dice clause as Polymorph? Psionics is the one thing I simply won't touch...old prejudice. Ah, good point. Lemme check. Actually, no. It says as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, not limited by your own Hit Dice. So that puts the Psion at least two levels ahead of anyone else.
RadicalTaoist 10-25-05, 09:20 PM	Oops.
gabrion 10-25-05, 10:02 PM	I'm a big fan of the arrow demon. On the topic of other high level builds that make good use of this, the chameleon can do a good job too. Utilizing Persistent Divine Power and Persistent Polymorph, along with getting the cool ranger spells makes such a character pretty powerful. With a high WIS, zen archery, and possibly a persistent haste thrown in there, he has a ton of attacks/round, plus they are all at a high attack bonus.
Nazzareth 10-25-05, 10:27 PM	I mentioned thri-keen for two reasons one for those that don't buy the Symetrical Archery allows multiple attacks reasoning. Secondly you can not gain the multi-tasking feat with out having four or more arms. The Thri-keen or insectile template would be handy if you want to do mutliple many shot volleys with the arrow demon. I can not remember if polymorph gives you the creatures feats or not, if it does you can turn anyone (outsider) into a great archer with it.
Nazzareth 10-25-05, 11:59 PM	Grab two bows with the splitting weapon ability and that will net you 32 shots per round with gtr manyshot, multi-tasking and symetrical archery. Enlarge yourself and throw on grillons blessing to add on extra gtr manyshots, one per pair of arms (thanks multi-tasking). Grab a bow of splitting for each pair of arms so far that 8 arrows per set of arms (artificer may help). Now find out how symetrical archery interacts with more than two pairs of arms and off you go.
gabrion 10-26-05, 12:11 AM	Grab two bows with the splitting weapon ability... I've seen this come up a few times, but I still don't know where to find it. Is it in a recent book?
Dark_beebles 10-26-05, 12:16 AM	I've seen this come up a few times, but I still don't know where to find it. Is it in a recent book? Champions of ruin i believe or lost empires of FR
Tempest Stormwind 10-26-05, 12:29 AM	It's in Champions of Ruin. A +3 enhancement ability that requires Precise Shot to function, you shoot one arrow (say, a +1 splitting humanbane arrow) and it splits into two midflight (two +1 humanbane arrows. The Splitting is dropped in the split). They're on separate attack rolls, though, so the TrueStrike/Manyshot trick doesn't apply here. I'd hate to see this stunt pulled with an artificer. (Oh, and Caelic: I understand the prejudice, having seen what earlier editions were like. Just know that if you do decide to try your hand at 3.5, your old experiences won't apply. The system works now.)
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 07:49 AM	Good Chameleon take, Gabrion. I mentioned thri-keen for two reasons one for those that don't buy the Symetrical Archery allows multiple attacks reasoning. Secondly you can not gain the multi-tasking feat with out having four or more arms. Well those that don't are disagreeing with the RAW then - even with four arms, the arrow demon would not be able to do what it does without Symetrical Archery. The Thri-keen or insectile template would be handy if you want to do mutliple many shot volleys with the arrow demon. I'd have to see what Multitasking does to see if it stacks with Symetrical Archery. I can not remember if polymorph gives you the creatures feats or not, if it does you can turn anyone (outsider) into a great archer with it. I don't think it gives the feats. I'd have to double check though.
gabrion 10-26-05, 02:31 PM	Good Chameleon take, Gabrion. Thanks. I used a 15th level build like that in an arena a while back and when I destroyed my opponent on the second round (using a superfluous hunter's mercy and my 8 attacks), I was promptly informed that "powergamers are not welcome here." I had to tone down the character a bit (giving myself like a -10 handicap to AC, Saves, and Saves) and stopped using the Arrow Demon form so now they are thinking about letting me play again. Clearly I was over the top, but it's always a bit sad to see people play characters with no thought put into them. And in an arena no less... [/rant] I can not remember if polymorph gives you the creatures feats or not, if it does you can turn anyone (outsider) into a great archer with it. IIRC it give racial bonus feats (via alter self), but not regular feats. The Arrow Demon's feats for instance, all come from HD, so taking that form wouldn't give any of them (though if it did, this would be an almost complete archer package for anyone with Polymorph).
RadicalTaoist 10-26-05, 03:58 PM	Thanks. I used a 15th level build like that in an arena a while back and when I destroyed my opponent on the second round (using a superfluous hunter's mercy and my 8 attacks), I was promptly informed that "powergamers are not welcome here." I had to tone down the character a bit (giving myself like a -10 handicap to AC, Saves, and Saves) and stopped using the Arrow Demon form so now they are thinking about letting me play again. Clearly I was over the top, but it's always a bit sad to see people play characters with no thought put into them. And in an arena no less... [/rant] Gah. If it's an arena and you're not abusing RAW, then what the hell where they thinking? Was your character not well roleplayed enough for the task of killing others for no reason?
carnivore 10-26-05, 04:28 PM	nice job RT :D
Nazzareth 10-27-05, 01:28 AM	The multi-tasking is in savage species and allows you to take one standard action per pair of arms in a round, so a arrow demon would get two standard actions per round to use on the manyshot feat. The arrow splitting ability and symetrical archery would both work with gtr manyshot (Expsi) as you get an attack roll for each arrow fired. Would an enlarged arrow demon be able to make AOO with the bow out to 10ft or not. Remember thanks to symetrical archery you can get two AOO for the price of one, maybe karmic strike could work with this.
RadicalTaoist 10-27-05, 10:56 AM	The multi-tasking is in savage species and allows you to take one standard action per pair of arms in a round, so a arrow demon would get two standard actions per round to use on the manyshot feat. The arrow splitting ability and symetrical archery would both work with gtr manyshot (Expsi) as you get an attack roll for each arrow fired. I see...but is that dependent on using only the pair of arms per the standard action? I don't know if it would stack with Symetrical Archery. If it did, then we'd have eight effective manyshots a round Would an enlarged arrow demon be able to make AOO with the bow out to 10ft or not. Remember thanks to symetrical archery you can get two AOO for the price of one, maybe karmic strike could work with this. As a matter of fact he does, and the Huge arrow demon makes those AoOs out to 15 ft. Expansion's a wonderful thing.
Nazzareth 10-27-05, 07:07 PM	I see...but is that dependent on using only the pair of arms per the standard action? I don't know if it would stack with Symetrical Archery. If it did, then we'd have eight effective manyshots a round Symetrical archery would work with multi-tasking as there is nothing in it description that would limit it. Even though you are limited to a standard action per set of arms by the multi-tasking feat and symetrical archery uses another set of arms, Symetrical archery could fall out side that limitation. They would still work together as symetrical archery is a bonus/addition to the original action and is not limited to that same set of arms as the original action. As a matter of fact he does, and the Huge arrow demon makes those AoOs out to 15 ft. Expansion's a wonderful thing. Now how many pairs of arms would a huge creature have through grillons blessing. How would Symetrical archery work with this one extra shot per pair of extra arms or an extra shot per two pairs of arms. This could increase the number of arrows fired per AOO.
RadicalTaoist 10-27-05, 10:54 PM	Symetrical archery would work with multi-tasking as there is nothing in it description that would limit it. Even though you are limited to a standard action per set of arms by the multi-tasking feat and symetrical archery uses another set of arms, Symetrical archery could fall out side that limitation. They would still work together as symetrical archery is a bonus/addition to the original action and is not limited to that same set of arms as the original action. This is why anything coming out of Savage Species has a "consider banned until further reviewed" sticker on it in my games, and 90% of what I've given further review out of that book remains unequivocally banned. That said, I've only stated one build and it only goes to level 8. Go to town my friend. Now how many pairs of arms would a huge creature have through grillons blessing. How would Symetrical archery work with this one extra shot per pair of extra arms or an extra shot per two pairs of arms. This could increase the number of arrows fired per AOO. I don't know the text of girallons blessing, but Symetrical Archery only states two arrows, regardless of the possibility of extra arms. Might not have any luck here. It'd help with multitasking though.
Part-Human2 10-28-05, 08:14 AM	If using a build 10th level +, just get the Skin of Proteus (XPH) for all-day Metamorphosis. I think this should be a Wisdom-Archer (Zen Archery feat) because it uses the physical ability scores of the Archer Demon. Make the PC old.
gabrion 10-28-05, 08:46 AM	If using a build 10th level +, just get the Skin of Proteus (XPH) for all-day Metamorphosis. I think this should be a Wisdom-Archer (Zen Archery feat) because it uses the physical ability scores of the Archer Demon. Make the PC old. If only I had that much money at 10th level. :) High wisdom/zen archery is cool though. I'm thinking a changling cleric with the transformation domain and the saint template would rock pretty hard in this regard (although this particular trick wouldn't be available till ECL 11, but hey, its a cleric!). I'm trying to think of a more efficient way for a changling to get the outsider type though (i mean being a saint is nice, but I don't like giving up those two levels).
Alorand 11-05-05, 01:50 AM	Hello everyone. I have been a fan of the CO boards for a long time, and now I have the chance to make use of some of it. I was hoping to play this build in a game and thought I would ask you guys for advice. We will be starting at level 8 and I need to figure out how to spend my starting gold. All WotC sources, custom Items ok, 1/3 gold max on one item. If you could help further trick out this character I would be grateful. Oh and, RadicalTaoist, thanks for a very fun build !
RadicalTaoist 11-05-05, 02:39 PM	Hello everyone. I have been a fan of the CO boards for a long time, and now I have the chance to make use of some of it. I was hoping to play this build in a game and thought I would ask you guys for advice. We will be starting at level 8 and I need to figure out how to spend my starting gold. All WotC sources, custom Items ok, 1/3 gold max on one item. If you could help further trick out this character I would be grateful. Oh and, RadicalTaoist, thanks for a very fun build ! Glad to help! I recommend Lesser Bracers of Archery, and of course two Large mighty composite longbows (+4 Str bonus). A single Medium composite longbow might be a good idea to carry around for backup when you're in your normal form. If there's any item or weapon enhancement that grants you Precise Shot, take it.
Shandrakor 04-02-06, 11:47 PM	Bump. Because it shouldn't be deleted, and I was looking for it last month without success.
Surreal 08-11-06, 03:57 AM	Random late night thought about having an Arrow Demon Soulbow... hmm, wonder if that's possible.
Mettra 08-11-06, 11:15 PM	Where is the Sun Elf from? I assume it's an outsider (since Metamorphosis states you can't become an outsider [excluding the 'your own type' clause]). /edit - Actually, I found it (of course :p) right after asking, but I can't find any way to call it an outsider. Any help?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 08-12-06, 12:12 AM	Probably uses the otherworldly feat. Check the consolidated feats list to find the source for that -- but I think it grants the outsider type.
Mettra 08-12-06, 07:33 AM	Yes, the Sun Elf does qualify for that feat. That's probably it. Thank you :).
fansy 08-12-06, 09:49 AM	Where does "Otherworldly" come from? Edit: NM, found it...in the Player's Guide to Faerun.
progresslevel9 09-30-06, 02:57 AM	Hey, looks like another thread resurrection is in order... so, Otherworldly makes you an outsider... but where does it say that this allows you to circumvent the limitations of Metamorphosis or Polymorph? is it inherent in the spell's subtype or something? or just something in the body of the spell's text that I missed? I've been wondering this for a very long time, infact...Seen many builds on the threads about switching to outsider forms (first was in a Wilder build guide, I think...) and I still don't quite get it. Huh.
NoldorForce 09-30-06, 03:06 AM	Metamorphosis (along with the other polymorph variant spells that came before PHB2) has the following line:You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead.Bolding mine. Thus, if you're an outsider, you can assume the forms of other outsiders. The part about "no constructs, etc." doesn't apply to your taking an outsider form, as it specifically says "any other type".
progresslevel9 09-30-06, 04:02 AM	I see. This time around, anyways. Seems on the first iteration, I was too busy being illiterate. Thanks, NoldorForce! Oh, btw, any way to do this trick outside Forgotten Realms? Aside from, Idunno, one of the LA +0's from the planar handbook?
Stardock 11-17-06, 11:57 PM	Is it possible to acquire the arrow demon form in an eberron campaign setting?
Rashomon 11-18-06, 12:15 AM	Not impossible. THey'd have a placeon that plane of eternal conflict. Also, SPlitting bows... oh god, the horror.
NoldorForce 11-18-06, 12:25 AM	True, but the real question is how to be an outsider without Otherworldly--the easiest method, but specific to FR. Go with any number of races that start that way--besides the Planetouched races (all +1 LA), there are also a few in the Planar Handbook, including the intriguing LA +0 Neraphs. Sure, the book says they come from Limbo, but it makes enough connections between them and slaad (heck, they look like slaad) that you could place them on Kythri (Eberron's version of Limbo). By the way, that plane of eternal conflict is Shavarath.
Stardock 11-18-06, 02:28 AM	Hmm, yes that would've been a good idea but I've already started this character... Is there anything else that makes you an outsider? The only thing I can think of is the Alienist prestige class from Complete Arcane...and while this would be a neat trick I don't think it's 10 levels of Alienist neat ;)
Nanshork 11-18-06, 04:22 AM	The multi-tasking is in savage species and allows you to take one standard action per pair of arms in a round In response to a post that's a year old, this information is incorrect. What the multi-tasking feat states is "if you have four or more arms, you can use each pair of arms to perform a distinct partial action." (emphasis mine) So it doesn't grant standard actions, so you can't use to to stack with Symmetrical Archery. Also, it's prereqs include Multiweapon Fighting, Imp. Multiweapon fighting, and multiattack, so the feat isn't that overpowered.
Balthanon 11-18-06, 10:15 AM	Hey, looks like another thread resurrection is in order... so, Otherworldly makes you an outsider... but where does it say that this allows you to circumvent the limitations of Metamorphosis or Polymorph? The feat actually changes your type (rather than being an "effective" outsider or something of that nature). And the limitations on polymorph and metamorphosis are dependent on type-- thus, if you are an outsider due to that feat, you are able to transform into other outsiders.
Stardock 11-18-06, 10:32 AM	Hey I just had an idea...what about the fiendform spell from complete arcane? It changes your type to outsider for it's duration. Could you cast it to gain the outsider type then cast polymorph to turn into the arrow demon? Granted it requires the ability to cast level 6 spells, but that's better then taking 10 levels in a prestige class I don't want...
Elderich 11-18-06, 11:22 AM	That works. There are a few other spells that change your type to outside IIRC. I think they are a lower level too, but I dont have the info handy.