Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 10-27-04, 02:21 PM	There's already a Drizzt thread, so I want to ask about his arch-enemy, Artemis Entreri. How would you guys create an optimized version of him? do you think the FRCS version is sufficient?
Ipsissimus 10-28-04, 09:11 AM	The FRCS Artemis is no where near the character in RA Salavatore's books, he would have to be epic level because if you read the series he noticed a bunch of traps and literally made them better and bypassed them in seconds. The one in the FRCS he doesn't even have sufficient ranks in disable device or search to have been able to pull off that stunt. Rogue/Assassin/Fighter (with 2 incredible artifacts) I won't even put levels with those classes because he and Drizzt are legendary characters, putting numbers to their names would only lower them to regular adventurer's and that's just wrong.
Tenken 10-28-04, 09:33 AM	the FRCS version also has 1 level of ranger, which I'm guessing would be bumped to 2 levels for 3.5. Artemis seems to require stealth more so than Drizzt. He'll probably have lower hit points, and he uses sneak attacks. Drizzt seems to have higher hit points, and doesn't really require sneak attacks...
Enoch Van Garret 10-28-04, 01:04 PM	First attempt: Monk2, Fighter4, Rogue1, Shadowdancer1, Assassin1, Duelist7, Ranger2. Key Feats: Kung Fu Genius, Cosmopolitan (or whatever the feat is that lets you make cross-class skills into class skills), Improved Expertise. I'm aware that this build incurs an experience penalty, but therein lies the difficulty converting existing 2nd-ed characters. With this build, Entreri has good saves, awesome fighting abilities (especially with fractional BAB rules, which leaves him with a final BAB of +16.75, as well as Int+7 to AC), the key Elaborate Parry, Hide in Plain Sight, Track, Trapfinding, and Death Attack abilities, as well as a solid martial base of 3 fighter bonus feats to complement his combat power. Assuming a bare minimum of 24 int and 18 dexterity, he would have a naked AC score of 28 normal, 35 fighting defensively, and up to 42 with full improved expertise - more than enough to be the master of 'you can't hit me' two-weapon combat that he is portrayed as. Magic items would take care of the skill bonuses rather handily, as +skill bonus magic items are relatively inexpensive and easy to stack and abuse. For those that choose to complain that Entreri wouldn't need magic items, I feel it necessary to remind that in 2nd edition, one could very easily be a 12th-level thief and a 18th-level fighter at the same time, and this was in fact quite common. Obviously, in order to represent this without gestalt rules (in which case, Entreri would obviously have 18 levels of fightery classes and 18 levels of roguish classes), some form of concession must be allowed, which I have chosen to use magic items for. Entreri carried enough signature possessions (a golden chain, a black hat, an ornate black leather belt, and his trademark jeweled dagger) that most of them could easily be +skill items without straining credibility. Also, I find it quite feasible that Entreri would wear bracers of armor, driving his Armor Class into the 50+ range while fully defensive quite easily. Most player-character fighters would have an awfully hard time dealing with that.
Tenken 10-28-04, 01:24 PM	Isn't the Duelist class mainly for single sword characters? I don't think that class or the monk class fits Artemis at all. What I'm wondering is, can any twf combo classes match that of the Dervish? While I don't particularly think the Dervish is overpowering, I am (now) convinced that it's a strong prc. If Drizzt were in that prc, it's tough to match, that's for sure. Personally, my take is: rgr2/ftr4/rog3/guild thief1/assassin1/dervish7 BAB +15, SA +4d6, Death Attack or maybe rgr2/ftr6/rog3/guild thief4/shadowdancer1/assassin2 BAB +14, SA +5d6, Death Attack, Hide in Plain Sight I find it much tougher to optimize Artemis, because he's supposed to be Drizzt's equal, but he also has great rogue abilities.
scrollreader 10-28-04, 01:31 PM	Well. IMO, we have to go back to THE two weapon calss before the dervish, the tempest. Ranger 2/Rogue 4/Ftr 1/Duelist 7/Tempest 6 This gives him the maximum 'defending' AC, imo, as well as a nice counterpart to Drizzt. Hard, mechanical TWF mastery. Artemis doesn't dance.
Tenken 10-28-04, 01:33 PM	I thought the Tempest class was considered "weak" by CO's? And what's with the Duelist class???
Tenken 10-28-04, 01:44 PM	Reading up on Duelist (I'm assuming the Sword and Fist version is the only one out there), and I have a question. How does Precise Strike work? Can you just ALWAYS use it??? Also, Precise Strike requires using a piercing weapon :( One could argue that Entreri uses a dagger, but that's in his off-hand I think, something that's not allowed to be used while using Precise Strike.
Mr_Bigglesworth 10-28-04, 02:01 PM	In Streams of Silver, Cattie Brie's first impression of Artemis was that his movements are VERY similar to Drizzt's. Which I can only conclude that Artemis should also have levels in Dervish. (Two weapon fighting, and what R.A. Salvator refers to as "Dance of Death"). Unlike Drizzt, Artemis uses a Rapier and a Jeweled dagger, so I'm thinking maybe he should also have levels in Invisable Blade as well. Even though he's an Assassin by trade, I have yet to see him use poison or any spells granted to the Assassin class. Therefore I don't believe that PrC would be fitting.
Denethor 10-28-04, 02:05 PM	Weak is a big compliment to the Tempest, actually...
Tenken 10-28-04, 02:24 PM	First attempt: Monk2, Fighter4, Rogue1, Shadowdancer1, Assassin1, Duelist7, Ranger2. Also, I find it quite feasible that Entreri would wear bracers of armor, driving his Armor Class into the 50+ range while fully defensive quite easily. Most player-character fighters would have an awfully hard time dealing with that. Can you do a breakdown of how you get to that AC score? I didn't really get it.
Enoch Van Garret 10-28-04, 02:32 PM	Can you do a breakdown of how you get to that AC score? I didn't really get it. Certainly. With +8 bracers of armor, a minimum INT of 24, and a minimum DEX of 18: base AC: 36=10 (base) + 8 (armor) + 7 (insight;monk) + 7 (dodge;duelist) + 4 (dexterity) Fighting Defensively: 43=10 (base) + 8 (armor) + 7 (insight;monk) + 7 (dodge;duelist) + 4 (dexterity) + 7 (dodge; elaborate parry) Full Improved Expertise: 52 =10 (base) + 8 (armor) + 7 (insight;monk) + 7 (dodge;duelist) + 4 (dexterity) + 16 (dodge; improved expertise) I should note that with an intelligence score of that magnitude, we'd be fools not to try to fit in 3 levels of Swashbuckler. Reading up on Duelist (I'm assuming the Sword and Fist version is the only one out there), and I have a question. How does Precise Strike work? Can you just ALWAYS use it??? Also, Precise Strike requires using a piercing weapon One could argue that Entreri uses a dagger, but that's in his off-hand I think, something that's not allowed to be used while using Precise Strike. You can use precise strike when only striking with a single one-handed piercing weapon. You can have another weapon in your other hand, but you can't attack with it for that round. Thus, Entreri could make as many attacks in one round as he pleased with his dagger hand only (without the -2 for two weapons, too, and his full strength bonus), and receive the Precise Strike bonus damage. If you look carefully, Entreri's "main hand" is actually his left hand most of the time. He wields his dagger in his right hand, and often attacks with only that hand while using the sword in the other hand for defense alone. When he uses both, however, his left hand is counted as his "main" because it wields the heavier weapon, and thus receives his full strength bonus.
Archades 10-28-04, 02:36 PM	Well, my friends and i always joke about how one of the most notorious assasins in the realms only has 1 level in the class... so its not too odd for him to not be using spells and poison, since that's not really his MO. from the descriptions, Entreri doesn't rely too much on death attacks. Despite the fact that he's an assasin, the reason he's one of the most well known is 'cause he's not afraid to take someone face to face (if it comes down to that i guess), so he probably should be pretty much as fighting-oriented as drizzt. He does use a saber and dagger, doesn't he? Aren't sabers treated like longswords or something? i think a rapier would be more appropriate substitute as far as rules go, which would make the duelist more fitting. Plus, I think you can still get precise strike bonuses, you just can't -use- your off hand weapon. If it does count as a long sword maybe he could have crescent moon style from CW, the sword-and-dagger fighting style. Entreri uses a cloak of armor which works like bracers, so an unarmored prc is a must too. Too bad the new duelist in the DMG sucks. (feel like im about to go on a short rant here... i apologize in advance) Seems like the NPCs in the FRCS aren't optimized, for probably two reasons. 1. is that wizards probably wanted to set a low standard of power to minimize powerplaying (or something) 2. would be that the seemingly weak npcs are geared more realistically and for versatility. The stats listed are basic guidelines, like a lowest common denominator. Anyone with 18 levels will seem like a relative badass unless their levels are completely stupid. Anyways, the only way to do Entreri properly (besides some sort of precision-based dex/int two weapon fighter) would probably be some sort of fient-based sneak attacker like the aforementioned invisible blade or something like that. The advantage of the latter is that he's a comprable fighter to Drizzt and has decent rogue abilities.
Tenken 10-28-04, 02:55 PM	Salvatore said specifically (in his forum interactive thread) that Charon's Claw (Entreri's weapon) is a longsword, not a rapier. base AC: 36=10 (base) + 8 (armor) + 7 (insight;monk) + 7 (dodge;duelist) + 4 (dexterity) Sorry for the dumb question, but how are you getting +7 AC bonus from the monk???
Enoch Van Garret 10-28-04, 02:59 PM	He does use a saber and dagger, doesn't he? Aren't sabers treated like longswords or something? i think a rapier would be more appropriate substitute as far as rules go, which would make the duelist more fitting. He uses, at different times, a saber, a longsword, and an unarmed strike to complement his dagger. Regardless of what weapons he uses, however, I do not think it can be denied that Artemis Entreri was the ultimate duelist. He was, put simply, the single most deadly one-on-one martial opponent in the Faerunian cosmology, with the possible exception of Drizzt Do'Urden. (Warning - ahead lies literary criticism, which has nothing to do with the build in question.) In their last fight, Drizzt won, but my personal opinion is that were they to fight again at the current point in the storyline, Entreri would whoop Drizzt's moping, angsty arse. Like Rurouni Kenshin's Enishi Yukishiro, Entreri is an engaging character because of the unyielding, focused hatred he bears for his enemy. I would personally be very happy if RAS were to begin a new series focusing solely on Entreri's development as a character, which at last glimpse was on the edge of a revelation - as opposed to Drizzt's, which appears to have been stagnant since Sojourn. Drizzt, for all his wordy, moralizing epiphanies which we are subjected to in introductions and interludes, appears to be totally unable to reconcile such concepts with his self-flagellating, emotionally powerless, and totally weak-willed outlook on life. All it takes is one bad turn of luck for Drizzt to lose his entire staple of faith in himself, the world, and fate in general, and be instantly reduced to a depressed, whiny pantywaist who bemoans his lot in life and the unfairness that there should be death, which seems particularly hypocritical considering that he is a person who has spent the better part of his life committing morally self-justified mass-murder. Entreri, on the other hand, is strong in his convictions, accepts his own shortcomings, recognizes difficulties for what they are, and does not whine or cry when unfair things happen - and never, ever aspires to be anything other than what he is...a person who kills other people and creatures. Any reasons for which he might do such things is irrelevant to the act, and he admits this freely. Short summary: Drizzt sucks, Entreri rules, and a moral high ground is no excuse for a boring story and character. *edited - foul language*
Enoch Van Garret 10-28-04, 03:00 PM	Salvatore said specifically (in his forum interactive thread) that Charon's Claw (Entreri's weapon) is a longsword, not a rapier. Sorry for the dumb question, but how are you getting +7 AC bonus from the monk??? the Kung Fu Genius feat, from Dragon Magazine, as I mentioned in the "required feats" section of my original post.
Enoch Van Garret 10-28-04, 03:25 PM	2nd attempt: Monk2, Swashbuckler3, Rogue1, Assassin1, Invisible Blade3, Duelist7, Shadowdancer1. The 20th-level version would finish out the Invisible Blade progression. Also, depending on if the Invisible Blade's intelligence bonus to AC stacks with that of the duelist, this would increase AC even further.
Son of Khoron 10-28-04, 03:37 PM	I attempted to make an Artemis Entreri-clone once: started off good then ended up with something slightly different from him. Shadow-Walker/Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Ranger 2/Dervish 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 Next two epic levels gets the 1000 cut ability (Dervish 10) and the Shadow Discorporation ability (Shadowlord 5). If you want to take a level of Assassin later, be sure to go for Shadowlord 6 to stack the Death Attack DC. Mix TWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, 1000 cuts, and dimension doors and you have a multi-hit slayer type. Never got around to playing it. Probably would be hated or feared.
malaegoth 10-28-04, 03:41 PM	Entreri was only sneaky, not super sneaky. He had every bit as much martial prowess as drizzit, so honestly, their builds would be remarkably similar. Honestly, I would just allow entreri to treat any one-handed weapon as a light weapon, so that he can use charon's claw as a dervish.
Sir Gummibaerchen 10-28-04, 04:23 PM	Short summary: Drizzt sucks, Entreri rules, and a moral high ground is no excuse for a boring story and character. WORD!!!!!
Tenken 10-28-04, 05:15 PM	You guys should be happy to know that Salvatore indeed HAS said that his next two books will be about Artemis and Jarlaxle :) Plenty of short stories about those two anyways. The latest one in Realms of Dragons is great. As far as builds go, I think it should be: rog3/rgr2/ftr4/blade dancer1/duelist8 Blade Dancer 1 gives way too many goodies for Entreri to pass up on. Magical Training feat takes care of the spellcasting requirement. Or I suppose that class can be taken out, makes no difference. With this build, he gets insane speed, which is something he's known for anyway. He gets a few rogue levels for disarming traps, combine it with ranger levels for his stealth. The other levels make up his fighting prowess. I like that monk build for the defense, but I just don't think it fits his character, so I didn't put the monk class in there. He's definitely never stunned anyone to my knowledge, and if he has, it's probably more of a paralyzing affect from the assassin prc I think.
Norad 10-28-04, 05:21 PM	Oh, I'll take a stab: Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 10/Duelist 4 Take the feat from UA: Skill Knowledge, allows you to tag two skills from one of your classes as permanent class skills. You might even consider taking it twice at first level Rogue to get Search/Disable Device and Hide/Move Silently. This allows him to keep those skills at max, this build also hits the +16 BAB breakpoint, allows him to add Int to damage and to AC as well. You could swap Dervish for Duelist, but it just seems a little to much like a Drizzt clone with that in there. Of course there is always Telflammar Shadowlord, but I think that is just slightly out of flavor with the character.
Chasmodai 10-28-04, 05:30 PM	I'm more partial towards Enoch van Garrett's version of Artemis. Dervish just doesn't really cut it - I mean, I don't see Artemis Entreri, the most famous assassin in all of Faerun being the kind of man who dances in combat. (No, don't even try to call it something else. You need Perform [dance] to enter the class, so you're dancing. And it's called Dervish Dance fer cryin' out loud.) He's definitely never stunned anyone to my knowledge, and if he has, it's probably more of a paralyzing affect from the assassin prc I think. He could always take Improved Grapple instead of Stunning Fist. Or not use Stunning Fist at all.
Tenken 10-28-04, 06:36 PM	He could always take Improved Grapple instead of Stunning Fist. Or not use Stunning Fist at all. Hmmm... I still don't buy it... I just really don't see him having any type of monk abilities at all. Entreri seems chaotic to me, and probably started out that way, not lawful. I do like his build too though.
Tenken 10-28-04, 06:38 PM	Oh, I'll take a stab: Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 10/Duelist 4 Take the feat from UA: Skill Knowledge, allows you to tag two skills from one of your classes as permanent class skills. You might even consider taking it twice at first level Rogue to get Search/Disable Device and Hide/Move Silently. This allows him to keep those skills at max, this build also hits the +16 BAB breakpoint, allows him to add Int to damage and to AC as well. You could swap Dervish for Duelist, but it just seems a little to much like a Drizzt clone with that in there. Of course there is always Telflammar Shadowlord, but I think that is just slightly out of flavor with the character. Entreri is a warrior first and foremost, not a rogue type of character. He might've started out from the street, but he's known for the fact that if push comes to shove, he can more than match any fighters out there.
jedrious 10-28-04, 07:07 PM	please tell me both of these guys died in the last book, I'm tired of hearing about them
Norad 10-28-04, 07:08 PM	Entreri is a warrior first and foremost, not a rogue type of character. He might've started out from the street, but he's known for the fact that if push comes to shove, he can more than match any fighters out there. You could always lose Rogue 3 and replace with the fighter variant from UA that gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats, or the Urban Ranger variant might work also, especially if you made it using the non-spellcasting variation from CW. Non-Spellcasting Urban Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 10/Duelist 4 Or: Non-Spellcasting Urban Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 10/Shadow Thief of Amn 4 Or: Non-Spellcasting Urban Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 10/Dervish 4 The second one hits +16 BAB, but isn't quite as fighter oriented as the other two, which would hit +17 BAB. The last 4 levels are pretty fluid really, but I think you have to have a significant number of Assassin levels in the build to really represent the character correctly.
BenjCano 10-28-04, 08:32 PM	please tell me both of these guys died in the last book, I'm tired of hearing about them All right. Both of these guys died in the last book.
MoonWizard 10-28-04, 09:04 PM	Enoch Von Garret - good calls man. I agree with your second attempt at Entreri optimization. I definitely a Drizzt fan because I think Drizzt's actions are different from his personal journal. Ha ha, an 18 CR warrior has a diary for his emotions! But I do think his actions on the battlefield are very tough and very cool.
RadicalTaoist 10-28-04, 11:41 PM	Well, there are two big differences between D. D'o. and A. E. as far as mechanics are concerned, IMO. Drizzt is wilderness based while Artemis is urban, and Drizzt owns multiple opponents while Artemis shines in single target takedowns (note, that's not a declaration of weakness, Drizzt can duel one on one and Artemis can go against larger numbers, just each not to the other's degree). The second is an argument for why Drizzt should be a Dervish, and why Artemis should focus on one-on-one fighting. My personal take on Artemis is UA variant fighter 8/Invisible Blade 5/Duelist 7. He seems perfectly fine defending (which is not fighting with, for the purposes of Duelist and IB class features) with his longsword while mainly attacking with the dagger. He seemed the type to unload with many two weapon attacks only in a few situations, preferring the flexibility of a two weapon defense and killing with a few, efficient strikes whenever possible. Note that this is a far from optimized build of mine, more of what I feel represents Arty the best. And yes, Drizzt was a cool trendsetter but nowadays I really feel he needs a kick in the ass to be an interesting character again. Maybe kill Catti-brie, Wulfgar, or Bruenor off FOR REAL THIS TIME and see his angsty personality shatter.
Malancthon 10-29-04, 12:02 AM	Sounds like a plan! <goes off and mercilessly kills off Catti-brie (WENCH), Wulfgar (WHELP), and Bruener (er... DWARF!)> <giggles as Drizzt cracks and kills himself>
Blade2718 10-29-04, 12:24 AM	Yes, Entreri NEEDS to be an Invisible Blade (with the house-ruled requirements instead of the listed ones). Most killing strokes have been with the dagger, though he is starting to put more emphasis on Charon's Claw. Maybe the old Weapon Master would be a decent fit for that. Also, is Entreri a Shade, half-Shade, Shadow-Walker, or what?
malaegoth 10-29-04, 01:07 AM	Yes, Entreri NEEDS to be an Invisible Blade (with the house-ruled requirements instead of the listed ones). Most killing strokes have been with the dagger, though he is starting to put more emphasis on Charon's Claw. Maybe the old Weapon Master would be a decent fit for that. Also, is Entreri a Shade, half-Shade, Shadow-Walker, or what? How about, none of the above. Except for maybe Invisible Blade, but the reason Entreri scores most of his kills with his dagger is because it is a GODLIKE artifact.
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 07:19 AM	Hmmm... I still don't buy it... I just really don't see him having any type of monk abilities at all. Entreri seems chaotic to me, and probably started out that way, not lawful. I do like his build too though. On the contrary. Entreri's personality is and always has been the epitome of lawful: follow his own rules, never give a damn what anybody thinks, and never deviate from those rules. Cold, calculating, pragmatic - these are the traits that mark a lawful evil character. Chaotic characters do what strikes them, and Entreri's personality has always been dominated by control.
Tenken 10-29-04, 09:02 AM	On the contrary. Entreri's personality is and always has been the epitome of lawful: follow his own rules, never give a damn what anybody thinks, and never deviate from those rules. Cold, calculating, pragmatic - these are the traits that mark a lawful evil character. Chaotic characters do what strikes them, and Entreri's personality has always been dominated by control. Okay, well you've convinced me that he's lawful then, and that he can definitely fight unarmed ocassionally. But as far as spending 1 or 2 monk levels, I still can't see it in his personality. Oh well, I guess that's just us differring in views. I still like your build a lot though, just that I'd personally take out the monk class. I also agree with the person that said that Entreri is urban based. Having said that though, he definitely needs his Track ability, even if it's more for urban purposes. On top of that, Entreri uses his longsword a LOT more now. Invisible Blade is a nice take on the build, but the sacrifice in feats for possibly not taking more fighter classes might really hurt you. Have you guys actually created the build and put the feats in it as well? He requires a LOT of feats, and I really think that at least 4 levels of fighter class is definitely a must. Also, Artemis can disarm magical traps, something that rogues, and only rogues, can do, so at least 1 level of that is a must. His dagger isn't an artifact, it's just a vampiric dagger of defending. His longsword on the other hand, is most definitely an artifact. He uses the longsword to make sneak attacks all the time by using the ash wall, and then sneak attacking the opponent. This leads me to believe that he isn't an invisible blade, but at the same time, you can argue that he has made plenty of bluff attacks in the past, so you can argue it both ways I suppose. You guys really should list out the feats that he'd take in his build, you'd be surprised at how much feats he requires.
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 10:01 AM	You guys really should list out the feats that he'd take in his build, you'd be surprised at how much feats he requires. Ok. For the Rogue1, Monk2, Swashbuckler3, Assassin1, Invisible Blade3, Duelist7, Shadowdancer1 build (in order): Dodge (Human), Skill Knowledge [search, disable device] (1st level), Combat Reflexes (3rd level), Weapon Focus: dagger (6th level), Mobility (9th level), Expertise (12th level), Kung Fu Genius (15th level), and Improved Expertise (18th level). These 8 feats, taken at the levels indicated, fill Entreri's feat needs exactly. the Weapon Finesse feat, which is required for both Invisible Blade and Duelist, is fulfilled by his Swashbuckler levels. He technically doesn't need Track, as he can use Search to find tracks - he just can't follow them. If you really want it, you can take a flaw for it. A noted flaw with this build is that it leaves no room for the two-weapon fighting tree, but then again, a flaw and plain-vanilla Two-Weapon fighting would be sufficient - he really doesn't seem to need more than one attack with his offhand most of the time. Here's an alternate build if you don't like using flaws: Rogue1, Swashbuckler3, Ranger2, Assassin1, Invisible Blade3, Duelist7, Shadowdancer1 build (in order): Dodge (Human), Skill Knowledge [search, disable device] (1st level), Combat Reflexes (3rd level), Weapon Focus: dagger (6th level), Mobility (9th level), Expertise (12th level), Improved Unarmed Strike (15th level), and Improved Expertise (18th level). This version ends up with a slightly higher BAB, but a much lower AC.
malaegoth 10-29-04, 10:12 AM	if you read some of the books, the dagger essentially instantly kills anyone it ever stabs. thats a helluva lot more than just vampiric.
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 10:23 AM	if you read some of the books, the dagger essentially instantly kills anyone it ever stabs. thats a helluva lot more than just vampiric. That's because most of the events in the books are 18th-level badasses kicking the bejesus out of 6th-level peons. It's not the dagger killing them, it's the person stabbing them with a +14 to damage and a death attack.
Tenken 10-29-04, 10:39 AM	That's because most of the events in the books are 18th-level badasses kicking the bejesus out of 6th-level peons. It's not the dagger killing them, it's the person stabbing them with a +14 to damage and a death attack. This is very accurate. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that most of the guys he kills aren't even 6th level. So yeah, that dagger isn't all that great. Charon's Claw on the other hand.....
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 10:48 AM	Have we seen stats on Charon's claw yet? I know it's an intelligent longsword, probably +3 or greater, with the power to create ash walls, grant darkvision, and make the wielder invisible to darkvision. The Crystal Shard also makes a reference to wounds it causes 'festering and likely killing' the target. I also haven't quite figured out the "ash wall" power.
Tealgorthian 10-29-04, 01:14 PM	That's because most of the events in the books are 18th-level badasses kicking the bejesus out of 6th-level peons. It's not the dagger killing them, it's the person stabbing them with a +14 to damage and a death attack. ROTFLMAO. Classic. I really dont have much to add, cept that I want to applade the efforts thus far :) I personally never thought if his dagger as anything more than a Nine Live's Stealer <Shrugs> Charon's Claw. It probably has somekind of "Cause Disease" on touch, with one of those really nasty diseases from BoVD. Something like real world brown recluse venom that causes your fleash to decay.
Blade2718 10-29-04, 01:29 PM	Isn't the ash wall thing addressed in Lords of Darkness?
Tenken 10-29-04, 01:36 PM	Isn't the ash wall thing addressed in Lords of Darkness? Yeah I think there's a weapon enchantment in there that's as close as it gets to the ash wall thing. Can't remember exactly what it's called.
Blade2718 10-29-04, 01:51 PM	Just checked it and its smoking. Not so much creating ash walls, as it creates a cloud of ash.
SwordOfJustUs 10-29-04, 02:00 PM	With out cracking open too many of my books the Sword enhancement that was mentioned (+1) Smoking = 5foot square like a stinking cloud plus gives consealment the dagger is Quite possibly 9 lives stealer with unlimited lives Wounding of more than +1 possibly +4 or +5 ie the old wounding ability it would do 4 or 5 pts per round after it struck, not the new 3.5 con damage. (he would some times stab some one and keep it in them till it killed them. 5pts per round would kill siad 6th lvl chaacters fairly quickly. and or made of the Metal that absorbes the soul of anything that dies while touching it (the name escapes me atm)
Sargh 10-29-04, 02:06 PM	Based on all the Drizzt books, and especially the dialogue between him and Jarlaxle, I don't think swashbuckler is appropriate. There's a converstaion between the two which A talks about J's flourishes and sweeping motions in his fighitng style (ie the type of movements that would be more like a swashbuckler) as strange to him. He was much more of a direct, efficiency-in-movement type of fighter. -Sargh, very much looking forward to more A and J books.
scrollreader 10-29-04, 02:11 PM	I think making the dagger a greater wounding, fleshgrinding weapon might do the trick.
Tenken 10-29-04, 03:49 PM	Based on all the Drizzt books, and especially the dialogue between him and Jarlaxle, I don't think swashbuckler is appropriate. There's a converstaion between the two which A talks about J's flourishes and sweeping motions in his fighitng style (ie the type of movements that would be more like a swashbuckler) as strange to him. He was much more of a direct, efficiency-in-movement type of fighter. Ya know, you're absolutely right... he always talks about how strange Jarlaxle's movements are, and J is DEFINITELY a swashbuckler. I know for sure that Salvatore has even used that term to describe J's fighting movements.
Blade2718 10-29-04, 05:14 PM	+1 defending vampiric wounding dagger of fleshgrinding?
nihility 10-29-04, 05:24 PM	Ya know, you're absolutely right... he always talks about how strange Jarlaxle's movements are, and J is DEFINITELY a swashbuckler. I know for sure that Salvatore has even used that term to describe J's fighting movements. At this point, it needs to be noted that what classes you take and how you act are not automatically the same thing. Plus, it's pretty hard to pull off INT to damage without using that class which happens to bear the unfortunate title of "swashbuckler." Maybe he was just cross-training for a bit? The swash's INT to damage thing only works if the enemy is not immune to crits or sneak attacks, so maybe we could view it as a extension or alternate path to sneak attacking: less damage than a fistfull of d6s, but more reliable. That seems to fit with the theme of being able to take people on toe-to-toe rather than always winning by stealth and surprise. Of course, then he hears about these really hardcore "invisible blade" dudes who've been hanging out on the Sword Coast...
Tenken 10-29-04, 05:35 PM	Okay, the Monk class I might be able to accept, but no way can you tell me that the Swashbuckling class fits Artemis in any sort of way. It's a style of fighting, there's no other way to describe it. Artemis definitely is not comfortable with a swashbuckling style of fighting.
nihility 10-29-04, 06:10 PM	Okay, the Monk class I might be able to accept, but no way can you tell me that the Swashbuckling class fits Artemis in any sort of way. It's a style of fighting, there's no other way to describe it. Artemis definitely is not comfortable with a swashbuckling style of fighting. I've always found it odd that swashbuckling came to refer to a style of fighting. I'm not sure how this came about, though I'm guessing the old silent movies had something to do with it. For reference, here's webster's definition of the word: Main Entry: swash·buck·ler Pronunciation: -"b&-kl&r Function: noun Etymology: 1swash + buckler 1 : a swaggering or daring soldier or adventurer 2 : a novel or drama dealing with a swashbuckler Compare this to an older definition: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) : Swashbuckler \Swash"buc`kler\, n. A bully or braggadocio; a swaggering, boastful fellow; a swaggerer. --Milton. Okay, now that my adventure in etymology is done, here's my thinking: a class is just a bunch of abilities and (maybe) a code of conduct. While certain types or personalities can be said to be iconic of a class, such as the thieving rogue or the longsword-wielding paladin in shining armor, it remains that others types exist. One of the strengths of DnD, and perhaps moreso of d20 Modern, is that you are free to make a character that is more than just an archetype or a caricature. I think this can be said of the swashbuckler as well. That said, I agree that the word "swashbuckler" certainly evokes a particular type: Errol Flynn, his cinematic descendants, and his various thematic ancestors. This is why I said that I thought the class bears an unfortunate title: the word has such a strong association that it stifles the player. This is a base class, not a prestige class, and ought to be open to a wide variety of types and personalities. Indeed, since it lacks any code of conduct or alignment requirement, it is accessable to a barbarian just as much as a monk or wizard. Unfortunately, with a name like "swashbuckler," it's hard to see past the icon and get a glance at the opportunities beyond. So, basically, I agree that turning Artemis into Errol Flynn is probably a very bad idea. I think he can still learn to apply INT to damage (i.e., swashbuckler levels) without doing that. I can also see your point: even though we all know that this class doesn't have a code of conduct or alignment restrictions, it's also pretty clear that this class was made with a very specific image in mind. I think that's bad design, and I'd like to find ways to use the class despite the bad design. At the same time, the text is the text, so I can understand your concerns. Edit: Douglas Fairbanks is probably a better example than Errol Flynn, and I re-read the swashbuckler description. Here's what it says, from Complete Warrior page 11: The swashbuckler embodies the concepts of daring and panache. Favoring agility and wit over brute force, the swashbuckler excels both in combat situations and social interactions, making her a versatile character indeed... like rogues, swashbuckers tend to be diverse in their outlooks, and thus in their alignments. Despite the illustration, which is essentially a female version of a black-and-white movie hero, the class as described is not nearly as confining as the word "swashbuckler" implies. So, I feel pretty good about using it. Your mileage may differ.
nihility 10-29-04, 06:34 PM	Here's a pretty telling quote, from Complete Warrior page 11: ...anyone valuing finesse over force can become a swashbuckler, regardless of background. I think that pretty much sums it up for me. No need to be flamboyant or flashy, you just need to prefer stabbing the enemy in the eye with a knife rather than whacking them with a club. The only mentions of personality traits common to swashbucklers of all alignments are a bit about a "need for attention [that] often outweighs her better judgement" and "a tendancy to leap into action when the call comes." The latter seems fine for such a combat-minded person. The former seems less applicable, so I'm going to need to ask someone who has better knowledge of the character to comment on it.
Jairami 10-29-04, 07:00 PM	In regards to swashbucklers and the swashbuckling style: Artemis hates it with a passion. He finds it wasteful, not efficient at all, and ultimately a sure way to death against a skilled swordsman. He looses all respect for Jarlaxle on the way to the Spirit Soaring when in the bar brawl with the were rats that's the fighting style Jarlaxle employs. ... Until Jarlaxle kicks everyone's butt with it. Keep in mind, Jarlaxle could beat Zaknafein in swordsmanship without his trickery, though he doesn't know if he could do it again, he is on that level. But in regards to an optimized Entreri having 3 levels in swashbuckler, that's fine. This is the optimized Entreri, not the FRCS, what-is-the-closest-approximation-that-can-be-made version. Repeat, NOT the closest approximation. And a names a name when it comes to optimization. He's never been to Teflammar, but if Shadowlord is necessary to make him an ass kicker, go for it. In regards to Entreri's dagger - I don't think vampiric cuts it. Yeah he's high level and attacking weaklings most of the time... But some of the time he just walks up and knicks someone and the dagger drains them dry while he heals. Death on a knick, to the point he can drain them, stop, interrogate, and drain them some more causing pain, doesn't sound like 1d4 hp damage/hp. Heck, it doesn't even sound like wrathful healing. :)
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 09:33 PM	Heck, it doesn't even sound like wrathful healing. On the contrary, it sounds exactly like wrathful healing. Also, to those commenting that the Swashbuckling style doesn't fit Entreri... Many of the items in the FRCS have a type other than the associated one, with a bracket which reads, (as X). So, instead of Swashbuckler, substitute the following 3 levels for Entreri: Intelligent Badass 3 (as Swashbuckler).
Enoch Van Garret 10-29-04, 09:35 PM	I think that pretty much sums it up for me. No need to be flamboyant or flashy, you just need to prefer stabbing the enemy in the eye with a knife rather than whacking them with a club. The only mentions of personality traits common to swashbucklers of all alignments are a bit about a "need for attention [that] often outweighs her better judgement" and "a tendancy to leap into action when the call comes." The latter seems fine for such a combat-minded person. The former seems less applicable, so I'm going to need to ask someone who has better knowledge of the character to comment on it. Entreri, at his core, is obsessed with how other people view him. He dedicates a significant part of his life to being viewed as "the best", and makes many a point about how reputation is the mightiest weapon in his arsenal. Still think it doesn't seem applicable?
Jairami 10-29-04, 10:36 PM	On the contrary, it sounds exactly like wrathful healing. I'd have to disagree with you there. Wrathful healing heals back one half of the damage inflicted on an opponent when you smash, stab, impale, or otherwise injure your opponent with a weapon. If it were a wrathful healing weapon, a slight knick of the opponent would heal half of a hang nail on the wielder. It wouldn't latch on and suck their life force dry as much or as little as the wielder desired. Not unless he decides to repeatedly stab his foe. No, I would say the weapon is an epic item, artifact, or some other plot device. But it looks like many would disagree. ;)
nihility 10-29-04, 11:11 PM	Entreri, at his core, is obsessed with how other people view him. He dedicates a significant part of his life to being viewed as "the best", and makes many a point about how reputation is the mightiest weapon in his arsenal. Still think it doesn't seem applicable? To be honest, I've never read a book that had Artemis in it; I'm working entirely from what I've gathered from this thread and my vague recollection of his description in the FRCS, which I last read over a year ago. If he's obsessed with his image... well, I think that pretty much clinches it. Regardless of the Douglas Fairbanks thing, he seems to fit the actual text of the swashbuckler description quite well.
nihility 10-29-04, 11:13 PM	Many of the items in the FRCS have a type other than the associated one, with a bracket which reads, (as X). So, instead of Swashbuckler, substitute the following 3 levels for Entreri: Intelligent Badass 3 (as Swashbuckler). Seems like the perfect fix. Don't change any of the swashbuckler's description, just the name, and I think everyone will be happy. Well, less unhappy, at least.
Archades 10-31-04, 08:49 PM	drizzt's sidekicks do seem to "die" alot don't they... sadly, i must reiterate someone's point to you doubters that artemis does "dance" according to description. The word dance is used multiple times to describe his fighting style, although I don't imagine its like ballet with knives or anything.. just real fluid and practiced. Kind of like the swashbuckler thing. I dont think entreri is swinging from chandelier's and shouting "aha!" every time he gets a good strike in, it would just be to represent his precision-style of combat. on the dagger... don't see why wounding defending and wrathful healing don't do the trick... those times when it just killed someone instantly were probably just death attacks or something...
Enoch Van Garret 11-01-04, 08:02 AM	I dont think entreri is swinging from chandelier's and shouting "aha!" every time he gets a good strike in Priceless.
lostone 11-01-04, 10:25 AM	on the dagger... don't see why wounding defending and wrathful healing don't do the trick... those times when it just killed someone instantly were probably just death attacks or something...I got the impression it was more powerful than just wounding. Maybe instead of a point of damage a round it does a die or two of damage each round.
Nazzareth 11-01-04, 08:20 PM	The generic warrior class from unearthed arcana fits him perfectly, you choose your own class skills, can gain sneak attack and still have a full BAB. Combine this with several PRC extra abilities and you are on your way.
Blade2718 11-01-04, 09:27 PM	Might have to mix in Generic Expert to get skill ranks worth writing home about, but overall a great idea.
Tenken 11-01-04, 09:47 PM	Might have to mix in Generic Expert to get skill ranks worth writing home about, but overall a great idea. I agree. Very good idea.