Arterial Strike Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arterial Strike Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
imneuromancer
09-22-05, 10:08 AM My GM often pits us against monsters that are well-nigh impossible to defeat, so I have been trying to find interesting ways of getting around that. One of my ideas was to get my rogue buddy in the party to take the "Arterial Strike" feat from Complete Warrior (page 96). However, I am not convinced of its efficacy.

That feat't description says that the wound you make keeps bleeding until a DC15 heal check or magical healing is applied.

So the question is, what is the criteria for making a heal check? Can you make a heal check if:
* You have no fine motor control appendages (hands and the like)?
* If you have animal intelligence or even just low intelligence?
* If you are by yourself and administer first aid to yourself?

It seems to me that the answer to the above questions will determine whether or not it is a good feat or not. Against a humanoid, if left alone they will eventually be able to make a DC15 heal check, averaging four rounds or less of damage until they make a check. This doesn't seem very optimal since you are spending a feat to get about the same damage as 1d6 of damage would give you (3.5). The only way to make it productive is if your combats run long, and even then....

On the other hand, if a rogue can do hit-and-run tactics on things that can't heal themselves, then it is a really overpowered feat because it means pretty much "insta"-death.

Any ideas/suggestions/etc?
ninjarabbit
09-22-05, 10:18 AM The evilest use of AS is to use it with the cursed blade spell. Damage done via the cursed blade spell cannot be healed until he recieves a remove curse spell so the victim will continue to take damage unless he has a means to remove curse. Of course this means you'll need to take a spellcasting class like assassin or hexblade or use a scroll and have use magic device maxed out.
imneuromancer
09-22-05, 10:21 AM interesting... where is cursed blade, and is it "evil" (my group is "good").

Any other thoughts on the healing check?
ninjarabbit
09-22-05, 10:24 AM Cursed blade is in Complete Warrior I think and I don't think it's an evil spell so it should work with a good group. A good use for it is to have a remove curse handy and hit someone with it that you need info from, promising the remove curse in exchange for the info.
PonTelon
09-22-05, 10:36 AM Cursed blade is in Complete Warrior I think and I don't think it's an evil spell so it should work with a good group. A good use for it is to have a remove curse handy and hit someone with it that you need info from, promising the remove curse in exchange for the info.

Great idea! Though I don't see a Good character doing that, I can definitely see a Neutral or Evil character doing it. =) I wonder who much a wand of Cursed Blade costs... lemeesee. 24,000 gold assuming caster level 8 and a level 4 spell. I cannot remember what the minimum caster level of a Hexblade or Assassin are to cast the spell, since their caster level is 1/2. Yup, caster level 8 is the first time they can cast it.

That would be a good investment if you plan on using Arterial Strike. =)

Good luck! If we had more info on the monster, we might be able to get you some other hints on beating it.
The Wild Rover
09-22-05, 10:51 AM don't forget that the bleeding damage can stack

so if you have a way to do a sneak attack every attack (i.e. flank the bastard) then you can get him to lose multiple hit points per round and require him/her/it to make multiple heal checks or use multiple cure spells. so it is all worth it in my opinion
oxybe
09-22-05, 11:17 AM i actually created a character (an evil assassin) who used said spell quite effectively in conjunction with greater invisibility, TWF (up close) & spring attack (hit and run).

taking 2 levels of invisible blade will net you another point of bleed, and the feat "vicious wound" from savage species will give you another 2 points (you need arterial strike or the invis blade ability to qualify for vicious wound). taking rogue 3/ ranger 2 (twf combat style) / invis blade 5, you can effectively do a minor TWF & sneak attack, as well as UMD a wand of cursed blade to get maximum bleed output. nice thing is, you get 5d6 SA & evasion. you can also do the jobs of scout, spy & tracker.

i could see a good character using this "bleed them to death" technique if he/she finishes off the enemy fast and not make them suffer more then needed.
imneuromancer
09-22-05, 12:05 PM Hmmm... Well the party doesn't have a hexblade or assassin, so using that spell for me is right out.

Anyone have an opinion abou the original problem, that is, when and under what circumstances can you get a heal check? Can animals have heal checks? Can things like Carrion Crawlers get heal checks on themselves? If so, can an animal try a heal check on a humanoid (seems kinda out of scope... would they be able to do it, but at the -8 because they are not designed to do it?).
oxybe
09-22-05, 01:12 PM on the heal check
technically? yes. would it have the intelligence to actually do so? no. most wild animals, if seriously wounded will do 1 of 2 things: fight or flight. if they fight, they'll fight to the death. if they run, they'll try to hide and heal normally through their own animalistic heal checks (lick the wound clean, lie down, rest...). very few animals would tend to a wound mid-combat.

i would say no to a normal heal check, but yes to aid another. the animal doesnt know how to treat wounds, but it could help in other ways (applying pressure, cleaning the wound with tongue, ect...)

on the cursed sword spell: wands, my friend. wands. UMD is your friend, use him. abuse him.
likerpgs
09-22-05, 02:42 PM The GM could really get nasty and start throwing constructs and undead at you which would make arterial strike pretty much useless.

Invest in other avenues for that contingency as well.
SoulGamit
09-22-05, 03:34 PM If I remember correctly, there are (swift action) spells to let sneak attack constructs, undead, or plants for a turn. Three seperate spells, all in CV.

One is Vinestrike, which is for plants, Druid level 1

Gravestrike is for paladins, level 1

Golemstrike, Sorc/Wiz level 1 spell

Make wands of these, many, many wands of these. Everything but gravestrike should cost 750gp
00_Whupass
09-22-05, 03:44 PM However despite the spell being a swift action, IIRC using UMD is a standard action, without regard to what the item does. So you could indeed Sneak attack (or Arterial Strike) a construct, plant, or undead, you could only make a single sneak attack per round, this when weighed against the potential damage of a full round of non sneak attacks reveals a potential pitfall of your plan.
sCRuLooSe
09-22-05, 04:08 PM Cursed Blade does not effect damage caused by special effects of a weapon; therefore it will not work with arterial strike. The extra damage could be healed. Good idea though.

However, Chamelion is a way around the spell not being on your list.
Eidolon Faer
09-22-05, 05:53 PM ...actually, the Arterial Strike feat is NOT a function of the weapon. But you're right, it wouldn't function with a magic weapon that caused bleeding wounds if you didn't have the feat.

Were I to be the one ruling on it as DM, I'd say that you can heal the bleeding damage normally (since it's an indirect result of the wound), but that STOPPING the bleeding would require remove curse, as would healing the damage caused by the sword wound itself.
sCRuLooSe
09-22-05, 06:15 PM Ok, I was interpreting Cursed Weapon to be incompatable with any special effect regardless of the source. Either way it is up to the DM. If the DM allows this, Chamelion will grant a character access to the Cursed Weapon spell, Gravestrike, Vinestrike, and Golemstrike.

Otherwise, Arterial Strike may be worth taking in conjunction wth a character with the ability to utilize paralysis, grappling, or holding effects each round. I suppose a warlock with sneak attack (daggerspell mage maybe) could use some tentacles or one of the grasp invocations to catch a bunch of targets and then use the ray to arterial strike them. If that character was fairly sure the opponents wouldn't get out before bleeding to death, each ray would effectively be a death stroke. This reuires a 2 round setup though. The same setup with one of the deabilitating ray effects might be worth taking.

The problem with arterial strike is that it requires a tactic that lengthens combat. From an optimization standpoint, the slower the combat the greater the NPC advantage. Overall, I much prefer staggering strike as an option.
Nazzareth
09-22-05, 07:16 PM I think staggering strike is a better feat to take than arterial strike, it limits the actions that the enemy can take, it stops full attack routines.

It is also good against tripped foes you flank as they have to spend their action to stand up. Have the flanker trip them again and on your turn staggering strike again. This could keep some creature's out of the action for a while.
Leewei
09-22-05, 07:39 PM So the question is, what is the criteria for making a heal check? Can you make a heal check if:
* You have no fine motor control appendages (hands and the like)?
* If you have animal intelligence or even just low intelligence?
* If you are by yourself and administer first aid to yourself?

As a DM, I require a Healer's Kit or else set a -2 Circumstance penalty on any non-long term Heal checks.

Heal can be used untrained. It defaults to Wisdom bonus.

Most creatures have some instinctive capability to care for their wounds, such as licking them to clean them and promote healing. Animals do not have any noticeable talent for staunching bleeding wounds, however, and tend to die without human help.

So:

No fine motor control would still allow for direct pressure via jaws or pincers. The DC would be 15 and there would be a -2 penalty to the roll for not being able to use a kit. So the answer is yes, but very hard to do.

Animal intelligence: No, you're out of luck. Low intelligence: Yes if the DM rules you are capable of using Heal skill.

Administer first aid to yourself: Yes, but not Long Term Care when following up with this.
Bonzai
09-23-05, 11:41 AM I had a rogue 4/Wizard 5/invisible bleade 5/infiltrator 6. The bleeding attacks were his primary mode of killing things. Hide/invise, True strike, sneak attack, do bleeding damage, hide, harass when necasary, and let them bleed out.

Our DM treated Heal as you would any other skill. It requires actions, rolls, difficulty modifieries, etc... The bandit lord you just hit, is gonna have to take some time to dress the wound. If he is fighting the party, odds are he isn't going to be able to take the time to do so. If he does, he won't be attacking, and may even be open to an attack of opportunity. So he has to get away, and take a few minutes to staunch the wound.

Animals more than likley don't have the heal skill, so they will more than likley bleed out.
El_Machinae
09-23-05, 12:57 PM Staggering Strike is worth its weight in gold. In fact, I might even say it's a little over-powered (but then, I'm not too sure). A clever application of sneak attack can negate some fearful attacks. The troll's 'rend' ability is a good example, but really, it's quite easy to get a sneak attack high enough to get the staggering strike in quite often.
likerpgs
09-23-05, 02:32 PM Unfortunately for my game group the GM imposed a ruling that creatures not subject to critical hits and/or stun cant be affected by an arterial strike

....apparently in his thinking, if they have organs that arent accessible or they have no organs to exploit, theres no chance to hit a jugular to bleed you.

So...my prior post is based on this ruling in my game, sorry for the confusion.
Sang-Drax
09-23-05, 02:45 PM Staggering Strike is worth its weight in gold. In fact, I might even say it's a little over-powered (but then, I'm not too sure). A clever application of sneak attack can negate some fearful attacks. The troll's 'rend' ability is a good example, but really, it's quite easy to get a sneak attack high enough to get the staggering strike in quite often.

The Craven feat, besides being a must-have feat as it is, greatly increase the DC for Staggering Strike...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imneuromancer 09-22-05, 10:08 AM	My GM often pits us against monsters that are well-nigh impossible to defeat, so I have been trying to find interesting ways of getting around that. One of my ideas was to get my rogue buddy in the party to take the "Arterial Strike" feat from Complete Warrior (page 96). However, I am not convinced of its efficacy. That feat't description says that the wound you make keeps bleeding until a DC15 heal check or magical healing is applied. So the question is, what is the criteria for making a heal check? Can you make a heal check if: * You have no fine motor control appendages (hands and the like)? * If you have animal intelligence or even just low intelligence? * If you are by yourself and administer first aid to yourself? It seems to me that the answer to the above questions will determine whether or not it is a good feat or not. Against a humanoid, if left alone they will eventually be able to make a DC15 heal check, averaging four rounds or less of damage until they make a check. This doesn't seem very optimal since you are spending a feat to get about the same damage as 1d6 of damage would give you (3.5). The only way to make it productive is if your combats run long, and even then.... On the other hand, if a rogue can do hit-and-run tactics on things that can't heal themselves, then it is a really overpowered feat because it means pretty much "insta"-death. Any ideas/suggestions/etc?
ninjarabbit 09-22-05, 10:18 AM	The evilest use of AS is to use it with the cursed blade spell. Damage done via the cursed blade spell cannot be healed until he recieves a remove curse spell so the victim will continue to take damage unless he has a means to remove curse. Of course this means you'll need to take a spellcasting class like assassin or hexblade or use a scroll and have use magic device maxed out.
imneuromancer 09-22-05, 10:21 AM	interesting... where is cursed blade, and is it "evil" (my group is "good"). Any other thoughts on the healing check?
ninjarabbit 09-22-05, 10:24 AM	Cursed blade is in Complete Warrior I think and I don't think it's an evil spell so it should work with a good group. A good use for it is to have a remove curse handy and hit someone with it that you need info from, promising the remove curse in exchange for the info.
PonTelon 09-22-05, 10:36 AM	Cursed blade is in Complete Warrior I think and I don't think it's an evil spell so it should work with a good group. A good use for it is to have a remove curse handy and hit someone with it that you need info from, promising the remove curse in exchange for the info. Great idea! Though I don't see a Good character doing that, I can definitely see a Neutral or Evil character doing it. =) I wonder who much a wand of Cursed Blade costs... lemeesee. 24,000 gold assuming caster level 8 and a level 4 spell. I cannot remember what the minimum caster level of a Hexblade or Assassin are to cast the spell, since their caster level is 1/2. Yup, caster level 8 is the first time they can cast it. That would be a good investment if you plan on using Arterial Strike. =) Good luck! If we had more info on the monster, we might be able to get you some other hints on beating it.
The Wild Rover 09-22-05, 10:51 AM	don't forget that the bleeding damage can stack so if you have a way to do a sneak attack every attack (i.e. flank the bastard) then you can get him to lose multiple hit points per round and require him/her/it to make multiple heal checks or use multiple cure spells. so it is all worth it in my opinion
oxybe 09-22-05, 11:17 AM	i actually created a character (an evil assassin) who used said spell quite effectively in conjunction with greater invisibility, TWF (up close) & spring attack (hit and run). taking 2 levels of invisible blade will net you another point of bleed, and the feat "vicious wound" from savage species will give you another 2 points (you need arterial strike or the invis blade ability to qualify for vicious wound). taking rogue 3/ ranger 2 (twf combat style) / invis blade 5, you can effectively do a minor TWF & sneak attack, as well as UMD a wand of cursed blade to get maximum bleed output. nice thing is, you get 5d6 SA & evasion. you can also do the jobs of scout, spy & tracker. i could see a good character using this "bleed them to death" technique if he/she finishes off the enemy fast and not make them suffer more then needed.
imneuromancer 09-22-05, 12:05 PM	Hmmm... Well the party doesn't have a hexblade or assassin, so using that spell for me is right out. Anyone have an opinion abou the original problem, that is, when and under what circumstances can you get a heal check? Can animals have heal checks? Can things like Carrion Crawlers get heal checks on themselves? If so, can an animal try a heal check on a humanoid (seems kinda out of scope... would they be able to do it, but at the -8 because they are not designed to do it?).
oxybe 09-22-05, 01:12 PM	on the heal check technically? yes. would it have the intelligence to actually do so? no. most wild animals, if seriously wounded will do 1 of 2 things: fight or flight. if they fight, they'll fight to the death. if they run, they'll try to hide and heal normally through their own animalistic heal checks (lick the wound clean, lie down, rest...). very few animals would tend to a wound mid-combat. i would say no to a normal heal check, but yes to aid another. the animal doesnt know how to treat wounds, but it could help in other ways (applying pressure, cleaning the wound with tongue, ect...) on the cursed sword spell: wands, my friend. wands. UMD is your friend, use him. abuse him.
likerpgs 09-22-05, 02:42 PM	The GM could really get nasty and start throwing constructs and undead at you which would make arterial strike pretty much useless. Invest in other avenues for that contingency as well.
SoulGamit 09-22-05, 03:34 PM	If I remember correctly, there are (swift action) spells to let sneak attack constructs, undead, or plants for a turn. Three seperate spells, all in CV. One is Vinestrike, which is for plants, Druid level 1 Gravestrike is for paladins, level 1 Golemstrike, Sorc/Wiz level 1 spell Make wands of these, many, many wands of these. Everything but gravestrike should cost 750gp
00_Whupass 09-22-05, 03:44 PM	However despite the spell being a swift action, IIRC using UMD is a standard action, without regard to what the item does. So you could indeed Sneak attack (or Arterial Strike) a construct, plant, or undead, you could only make a single sneak attack per round, this when weighed against the potential damage of a full round of non sneak attacks reveals a potential pitfall of your plan.
sCRuLooSe 09-22-05, 04:08 PM	Cursed Blade does not effect damage caused by special effects of a weapon; therefore it will not work with arterial strike. The extra damage could be healed. Good idea though. However, Chamelion is a way around the spell not being on your list.
Eidolon Faer 09-22-05, 05:53 PM	...actually, the Arterial Strike feat is NOT a function of the weapon. But you're right, it wouldn't function with a magic weapon that caused bleeding wounds if you didn't have the feat. Were I to be the one ruling on it as DM, I'd say that you can heal the bleeding damage normally (since it's an indirect result of the wound), but that STOPPING the bleeding would require remove curse, as would healing the damage caused by the sword wound itself.
sCRuLooSe 09-22-05, 06:15 PM	Ok, I was interpreting Cursed Weapon to be incompatable with any special effect regardless of the source. Either way it is up to the DM. If the DM allows this, Chamelion will grant a character access to the Cursed Weapon spell, Gravestrike, Vinestrike, and Golemstrike. Otherwise, Arterial Strike may be worth taking in conjunction wth a character with the ability to utilize paralysis, grappling, or holding effects each round. I suppose a warlock with sneak attack (daggerspell mage maybe) could use some tentacles or one of the grasp invocations to catch a bunch of targets and then use the ray to arterial strike them. If that character was fairly sure the opponents wouldn't get out before bleeding to death, each ray would effectively be a death stroke. This reuires a 2 round setup though. The same setup with one of the deabilitating ray effects might be worth taking. The problem with arterial strike is that it requires a tactic that lengthens combat. From an optimization standpoint, the slower the combat the greater the NPC advantage. Overall, I much prefer staggering strike as an option.
Nazzareth 09-22-05, 07:16 PM	I think staggering strike is a better feat to take than arterial strike, it limits the actions that the enemy can take, it stops full attack routines. It is also good against tripped foes you flank as they have to spend their action to stand up. Have the flanker trip them again and on your turn staggering strike again. This could keep some creature's out of the action for a while.
Leewei 09-22-05, 07:39 PM	So the question is, what is the criteria for making a heal check? Can you make a heal check if: * You have no fine motor control appendages (hands and the like)? * If you have animal intelligence or even just low intelligence? * If you are by yourself and administer first aid to yourself? As a DM, I require a Healer's Kit or else set a -2 Circumstance penalty on any non-long term Heal checks. Heal can be used untrained. It defaults to Wisdom bonus. Most creatures have some instinctive capability to care for their wounds, such as licking them to clean them and promote healing. Animals do not have any noticeable talent for staunching bleeding wounds, however, and tend to die without human help. So: No fine motor control would still allow for direct pressure via jaws or pincers. The DC would be 15 and there would be a -2 penalty to the roll for not being able to use a kit. So the answer is yes, but very hard to do. Animal intelligence: No, you're out of luck. Low intelligence: Yes if the DM rules you are capable of using Heal skill. Administer first aid to yourself: Yes, but not Long Term Care when following up with this.
Bonzai 09-23-05, 11:41 AM	I had a rogue 4/Wizard 5/invisible bleade 5/infiltrator 6. The bleeding attacks were his primary mode of killing things. Hide/invise, True strike, sneak attack, do bleeding damage, hide, harass when necasary, and let them bleed out. Our DM treated Heal as you would any other skill. It requires actions, rolls, difficulty modifieries, etc... The bandit lord you just hit, is gonna have to take some time to dress the wound. If he is fighting the party, odds are he isn't going to be able to take the time to do so. If he does, he won't be attacking, and may even be open to an attack of opportunity. So he has to get away, and take a few minutes to staunch the wound. Animals more than likley don't have the heal skill, so they will more than likley bleed out.
El_Machinae 09-23-05, 12:57 PM	Staggering Strike is worth its weight in gold. In fact, I might even say it's a little over-powered (but then, I'm not too sure). A clever application of sneak attack can negate some fearful attacks. The troll's 'rend' ability is a good example, but really, it's quite easy to get a sneak attack high enough to get the staggering strike in quite often.
likerpgs 09-23-05, 02:32 PM	Unfortunately for my game group the GM imposed a ruling that creatures not subject to critical hits and/or stun cant be affected by an arterial strike ....apparently in his thinking, if they have organs that arent accessible or they have no organs to exploit, theres no chance to hit a jugular to bleed you. So...my prior post is based on this ruling in my game, sorry for the confusion.
Sang-Drax 09-23-05, 02:45 PM	Staggering Strike is worth its weight in gold. In fact, I might even say it's a little over-powered (but then, I'm not too sure). A clever application of sneak attack can negate some fearful attacks. The troll's 'rend' ability is a good example, but really, it's quite easy to get a sneak attack high enough to get the staggering strike in quite often. The Craven feat, besides being a must-have feat as it is, greatly increase the DC for Staggering Strike...