Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anarchy1973 01-18-06, 07:45 PM	I am trying to build a L13 character for an ongoing campaign, all books allowed, Complete Series, Eberon & Forgotten Realms. The DM will allow a reasonable amount of cheese, as he overcomes this by harder encounters. Anyway, onto the question, I was thinking of making a Human Artificer/Fleshwarper. Can I use able learner to make Heal a class skill, thus neagating taking a level of Cleric, & go something like: Wizard 1/Artificer 8/Fleshwarper 4. Character is to be both a blaster & provide support through grafts to the other characters. I've narrowed my feats down to the following list, but am having problems deciding which feat when, or if I am missing something. Feats thought of are: Able Learner, Twin Spell, Exceptional Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, Ledgendery Artisan, Wand Mastery, 2 Weapon Fighting, Double Wand Wielder, Magical Artisan, Energy Substitution, Graft Flesh (Obviously), Energy Admixture & Quicken Spell. I have never played an Artificer or Fleshwarper before, but the DM has allowed it, so I don't want to miss the opportunity. I understand that this may n t be very optimised, but I think it would be fun. Other characters in the party are Drow Sorcerer L16, Human Bbn F/Berserker L15, Draegloth Bbn2 Ftr 2 Thayan Gladiator 2, Human Ranger (Bow) L15, Drow Cleric of Selvetarm 15 & Drow Rogue/Shadow Dancer/ Asn L15. We are going into Epic, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.
Nifft 01-18-06, 08:08 PM	Able Learner doesn't make Heal a class skill, it makes cross-class ranks only cost one skill point. You still face the limit on max ranks for cc skills. How does Fleshwarper spellcasting advancement help Artificers? (My Eberron-fu is weak.) -- N
Saracoth 01-18-06, 08:20 PM	Nifft's right on the Able Learner thing :/ Otherwise, one think I like about Artifier and grafts is that grafts have no caster level requirement! If you've got the cash, XP, and time, you can make any graft you have the feat for. As to how this affects emulating requirements for grafts, I don't know, since it's a DC of 20 + the caster level. Assuming the minimum CL for the required spells doesn't work, because, IIRC, there are items with a CL lower than you'd normally need to have access to all its prerequisites. In any case, I'd check with your DM on that point unless someone here has a really good answer.
Pinky's brain 01-18-06, 08:46 PM	Able learner can reduce the cost when buying cross class, but it won't remove the maximum on ranks you can have in cross class skills. The best way to get heal as a class skill I see is going sorcerer instead of wizard and taking draconic heritage (gold). Im not a big fan of legendary and extraordinary artisan, if you don't get enough downtime the 25% won't help and getting XP is easy ... since when you lag a level you get bonus XP. You will get more mileage out of your grafts as a buffificer than as a blastificer. Must have feats would be draconic heritage, graft flesh, quicken spell, extend spell, persistent spell, power attack. Additionally Wand surge + persistent unfettered heroism provides some very good cheese (especially in combination with staffs with only a few charges, which the DMG says you can start with at higher levels). If that is a bit too cheesy for you shocktrooper is also a nice feat if you go melee (you can get improved bull rush from a cheap Illithid graft). Nifft, fleshwarper improves an existing spellcasting class. According to MoE that will allow you to add it to artificer levels for infusions. Saracoth, I don't quite understand ... the artificer class feature is crystal clear, you meet the check and you meet the spell prerequisite. There is no wiggle room there.
anarchy1973 01-18-06, 09:09 PM	Thanks for the advice people, I wasn't aware about able learner, so thanks. I guess that I need to take a level of cleric then, to get Heal as a class skill. So that leaves me with: Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Artificer 8/Fleshwarper 3. Any other thoughts of feats in order, I have looked through the artificer thread by caelic, & that has some good ideas. I agree though about skipping the legendary and extraordinary artisan feats, any advice on which of the other feats from my list at what level ? Thanks again for all the help.
Pinky's brain 01-18-06, 09:27 PM	The best way to get heal as a class skill I see is going sorcerer instead of wizard and taking draconic heritage (gold).
anarchy1973 01-18-06, 11:49 PM	The best way to get heal as a class skill I see is going sorcerer instead of wizard and taking draconic heritage (gold). Thanks Pinky, what book is that feat in ? If it pertains to Gold Dragons & has alignment issues, we are an evil party, & I don't think my DM would take with an evil "Gold" dragon heritage. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.
Pinky's brain 01-19-06, 12:48 AM	It's from complete arcane, no alignment restrictions ... it's only a "distant draconic bloodline".
HalasterAteMyHamster 01-19-06, 03:04 AM	As far as getting Heal, you could use the Skill Knowledge feat in Unearthed Arcana. It's a variant rule, though, but if you're allowed all books then it shouldn't be a problem. Basically, it makes a specific skill a class skill.
Surreal 01-19-06, 01:23 PM	Why do you need it as a class skill? You only need 4 ranks in it, so suck it up and plunk in your 8 points to get it by level 5.
Pinky's brain 01-19-06, 01:32 PM	The craft graft feat has a higher prerequisite (10 ranks).
Saracoth 01-19-06, 04:59 PM	Saracoth, I don't quite understand ... the artificer class feature is crystal clear, you meet the check and you meet the spell prerequisite. There is no wiggle room there. Maybe it's just the programmer in me (the idea of 20 + null = null, if it doesn't throw an exception first :) ) I just wasn't sure how you'd handle emulating prerequisites of an item with no caster level. I guess it depends on whether you consider having no CL prereq on the item a CL of 0, meaning UMD DC 20 to meet any of a graft's prerequisites, but as some DMs (including anarchy1973's for all I know) might have issue with it I thought I'd point it out before it became an issue in-game. I have no problems with it myself, since cost remains a limiting factor, but I didn't feel like making any ultimatums :)
Pinky's brain 01-19-06, 09:17 PM	If there is no caster level prerequisite a normal caster could get all the spell prerequisites from scrolls and the item creation feat from cooperative item creation. He could create the graft at caster level 1 ... caster level prerequisites are never a function of other prerequisites. DM's can make problems about anything, but in this case there is nothing in the rules for them to latch on to.
Saracoth 01-20-06, 06:51 PM	If there is no caster level prerequisite a normal caster could get all the spell prerequisites from scrolls and the item creation feat from cooperative item creation. He could create the graft at caster level 1 Yeah, but he'd need to acquire the scrolls. An Artificer has no such sacrifice. In fact, in the best case scenario, he'd have a UMD check against DC 20. So he'd actually have an easier time brewing up blood that gives someone fast healing 2 than he'd have scribing a CL1 scroll of light. Cost and time aside, some DM's might object to that idea. caster level prerequisites are never a function of other prerequisites. Exactly (except that Artificers use caster level to determine their DC to emulate prerequisites, of course). So if a DM didn't like the DC 20 idea above and the player isn't keen on the idea below, the DM would have to wing it, as I indicated in my first post. DM's can make problems about anything, but in this case there is nothing in the rules for them to latch on to. Well, there's still the whole zero vs nothing issue. The worst case scenario is that not only is an Artificer not able to emulate graft prereqs on a DC 20 check, but that he can't emulate them at all. A character with no Con score gets squat from even a +2000 Con item. In other words, the DM can embrace the idea that Nothing + anything = nothing. Or, by commutative property, anything + nothing = nothing, meaning a DC of 20 + nothing = nothing. You can roll against DC 0, but DC nothing? Again, with all the powerbuilding I've seen in my day, I'm fine with the DC 20 idea, but that's just me. Again, I just wanted to point out the issue in case anarchy1973 wanted to present it to his DM before it came up. Frankly, I see a lot of wriggle room. At least with rule 0--and as we all know, you can't always assume anything (let alone that they'll listen to any reason but their own) when people you don't know are involved ;)