Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elder_Kin 05-08-06, 05:41 PM	When I first read eberron I saw the artificer class and thought it was the most retarded class ever. Than I played a game as one after considering malisteens guide on necromancy. I was mulling over in my mind the amazing verstatility of the artificer. They can cast any spell at all and a whole 2 levels before the spellcasting class who's spellcasting ability he's emulating. Than I got to thinking. Could a 13th level artificer emulate the spell casting ability of a Ur-Priest? While it's unlikely that he'd have the stats for a lvl 9 spell, it is possible and wierder things have happened. What if I were to declare in game that I was crafting a scroll as a Lvl 5 cleric lvl 10 ur-priest? Or could I go even further than that I cast as a lvl 10 Ur-Priest and get 9th level, heck any level divine spell at level 8? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this and I didn't want to make a build and look retarded.
Timlagor 05-08-06, 07:44 PM	Ask your DM. Ur-Priest should never have been printed: my answer would be that there's no such thing as an Ur-Priest so you can't craft/cast as one.
widow 05-08-06, 08:36 PM	Technically it works, but I remeber there was a Q&A with the ebberon creator and he said he does not think it should be allowed. I have played an artificer and used this tatic. The price of spells is just so much cheaper, especially with all the cheaper item creation feats and spells that do not have level based effects. But don't stop with the Ur-priest, there is also the Beholder mage for all your arcane needs. Also there are domain only spells, and abberant casting classes like the assassin, ranger, and paladin. Anything you find is fair game.
Elder_Kin 05-09-06, 06:25 PM	Ask your DM. Ur-Priest should never have been printed: my answer would be that there's no such thing as an Ur-Priest so you can't craft/cast as one. No offense but that's kind of dumb thinking. The Ur-Priest isn't like "y34h uB3r h4x0rz pwn4g3!!?!(*!". You get one single divine spell at level 15. Woopdi friggen do. In campaigns that start at level 17+ it's worthless, other than the steal spell like ability which is well fricken sweet. It does get sort of broken in eberron, excluding the artificer thing I mentioned. Unlike clerics of other worlds, you could with DM approval, and it's more likely in eberron, keep your clerical divine casting and domain powers. Technically it works, but I remeber there was a Q&A with the ebberon creator and he said he does not think it should be allowed. I have played an artificer and used this tatic. The price of spells is just so much cheaper, especially with all the cheaper item creation feats and spells that do not have level based effects. But don't stop with the Ur-priest, there is also the Beholder mage for all your arcane needs. Also there are domain only spells, and abberant casting classes like the assassin, ranger, and paladin. Anything you find is fair game. Beholder mage? Enlighten me on this.
Tempest Stormwind 05-09-06, 06:34 PM	For the beholder mage, I direct you to Lords of Madness and LordofProcrastination's Dirty Trick no. 1: Behold! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563).
catharz 05-09-06, 06:46 PM	No offense but that's kind of dumb thinking. The Ur-Priest isn't like "y34h uB3r h4x0rz pwn4g3!!?!(*!". You get one single divine spell at level 15. One single divine spell? Not according to my copy of Complete Divine. You can enter the class as your 6th level, so a 15th level Ur-Priest can cast 38 divine spells a day, not including bonus spells for a high wisdom. A cleric 15 gets 43, but if you compare by spells levels, the cleric gets 6*0 + 6*1 + 6*2 + 6*3 + 5*4 + 5*5 + 4*6 + 3*7 + 2*8 = 6+12+18+20+25+24+21+16 = 142. The Ur-priest gets 6*0 + 5*1 + 5*4 + 4*3 + 4*4 + 4*5 + 4*6 + 3*7 + 2*8 +1*9 = 25+72+21+16+9 = 143. One more spell level, baby! Plus the Ur-priest can potentially get more from wisdom. And has 5 previous levels in stuff we can't yet quantify. Oh ya, and the ur priest can be casting 9th level spells while the cleric is casting 7th.
Elder_Kin 05-10-06, 02:13 AM	i meant a single 9th level divine spell. Not a single spell. typo :D
ressurrector 05-10-06, 02:23 AM	i meant a single 9th level divine spell. Not a single spell. typo :D Hmmm, one 9th level spell (and possibly a second from high stat), or no 9th level spells, and slightly more 8th and lower.... It's not that bad of an idea to just take the 1-2 9th level spells early, clerics get some nice 9th level spells.
Docrailgun 05-10-06, 08:16 AM	The main problem with this idea is that Artificers _don't cast spells_. They put "infusions" into items, and this is somewhat like casting a spell. However, these infusions are neither arcane nor divine (which is why Artificers can't write scrolls for their wizard or archivist character to put in their spellbooks/prayer books). So, an artificer's infusion ability doesn't count for a spellcasting prerequisite anymore than the Use Magical Device skill does. In fact, the Eberron setting book says specifically "An artificer is not a spellcaster". An artificer cannot "cast any spell", but she may be able to create a magical item while emulating an actual spell or emulating a spell-casting class utilizing the Use Magical Device skill. That temporary emulation is only for the purposes of making said magical item, and the artificer is not actually casting the spells involved in making the item. I realize that makes no sense (how does one make an item without having someone cast a spell into it?), but that's what she is doing "...can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells..." and "...Use Magic Device check to emulate each spell..." Also, the artificer's infusions do not meet requirements to make a magic item, even if they match. "...must still employ the (UMD) skill to emulate the _light_ spell to create a _wand of light_, even though _light_ appears on his infusion list". As always, these sorts of abusive uses of the rules are up to DM fiat. If you're going to abuse the artificer, you're better off attracting one as a cohort and use the levels you might but in your build to better use. When I first read eberron I saw the artificer class and thought it was the most retarded class ever. Than I played a game as one after considering malisteens guide on necromancy. I was mulling over in my mind the amazing verstatility of the artificer. They can cast any spell at all and a whole 2 levels before the spellcasting class who's spellcasting ability he's emulating. Than I got to thinking. Could a 13th level artificer emulate the spell casting ability of a Ur-Priest? While it's unlikely that he'd have the stats for a lvl 9 spell, it is possible and wierder things have happened. What if I were to declare in game that I was crafting a scroll as a Lvl 5 cleric lvl 10 ur-priest? Or could I go even further than that I cast as a lvl 10 Ur-Priest and get 9th level, heck any level divine spell at level 8? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought of this and I didn't want to make a build and look retarded.
Pinky's brain 05-10-06, 08:52 AM	That isn't the issue. The mere existance of the classes like the ur priest have created the possibility of spell completion/trigger items with relatively low caster level for their spell level, if the item can exist then the artificer can create it.
Timlagor 05-10-06, 10:50 PM	No offense but that's kind of dumb thinking. The Ur-Priest isn't like "y34h uB3r h4x0rz pwn4g3!!?!(*!". You get one single divine spell at level 15. Woopdi friggen do. In campaigns that start at level 17+ it's worthless, other than the steal spell like ability which is well fricken sweet. It does get sort of broken in eberron, excluding the artificer thing I mentioned. Unlike clerics of other worlds, you could with DM approval, and it's more likely in eberron, keep your clerical divine casting and domain powers. You don't seem to have thought this through. NINTH LEVEL SPELLS AT 15th level!!! If you are starting higher then you should look at what the Wiz/Ur Mystic Theurge is doing. The only real balancing factor for Ur-Priests is that everyone hates them -this doesn't really apply to Artificers though you could apply it to them if they start stealing 'god-power' to craft their scrolls but they sort of do that even if they craft them on Cleric-levels...
Elderich 05-16-06, 03:10 PM	They put "infusions" into items, and this is somewhat like casting a spell.They dont put infusions into items, unless they are creating an item with an infusion in it. They put spells into items.Also, the artificer's infusions do not meet requirements to make a magic item, even if they match. "...must still employ the (UMD) skill to emulate the _light_ spell to create a _wand of light_, even though _light_ appears on his infusion list".Common misconception. You cannot use an infusion instead when the item requires a spell.
temillion 05-16-06, 03:49 PM	You don't seem to have thought this through. NINTH LEVEL SPELLS AT 15th level!!! If you are starting higher then you should look at what the Wiz/Ur Mystic Theurge is doing. Remember this is the CO board, home of planet eating kobolds, swarms of nanobots, and the 100^10 Elite. It takes a lot to make our DMs cry.
Skulan 05-16-06, 09:19 PM	In fact, if the DMs spend any time here, the players are crying almost as often. It must be noted, though, that 9th level spells, even one per day, can have a significant impact on a 15th-level game. I think the real question is what to do with the rest of the build. Getting 9th level arcane spells is a possibility, but kind of done to death, and a bit too easy, anyway. Is there a better build to be made with that? Some fantastic gish-combo that 9th level spells normally never see? Might breathe a little life into the ol' Ur-Priest, of someone can get creative. -Skulan
Tempest Stormwind 05-16-06, 09:34 PM	They dont put infusions into items, unless they are creating an item with an infusion in it. Note that you can't craft an item of an infusion. Sorry. Additionally, note that he said that the artificer equivalent of casting a spell was putting an infusion in an item. This is exactly what the artificer does anyway (infuses items with magical properties). Common misconception. You cannot use an infusion instead when the item requires a spell.Which is exactly what he said. I think you jumped the gun and replied after only skimming his post.
deneb 05-16-06, 11:27 PM	Note that you can't craft an item of an infusion. Sorry. Schema from MoE allow infusions as long as they have no expensive material componets and no XP cost. kinda mangles the best infusions. but still.. some of them still rock
Elderich 05-17-06, 03:27 PM	Note that you can't craft an item of an infusion. Sorry. While I greatly respect your opinion, do you have a source for this?Which is exactly what he said.I read it rather differently. I understood Docrailgun to say the prohibition was on using infusions as requirements for magic items, which is not prohibited. There are items with infusions as creation requirements. (MoE 109? Goggles come to mind, but I am AFB)
deneb 05-17-06, 03:59 PM	as was said the schema from MoE spesficly can cast infusions @ one a day. The reason that it is commonly held that you cant craft items of infusions relates to the following quotes from eberron campain guide (pg32) "An artificer's infusions do not meet spell prerequisites for creating magic items. For example, an Artificer must still employ the Use Magic Device skill to emulate the light spell to create a wand of light, even though light appears on his infusion list." and that on the previouse page(31) "Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply item creation feats and metamagic feats to his infusions." Was erratta'd to "Like a spellcaster, an artificer can apply metamagic feats he knows to his infusions." the general ruling of the CO boards is that they ment that eratta to eliminate crafting items of infusions. While i do not personaly agree with that interpertation when posting on the CO boards i understand that is the acceped undertanding. (I think that just means when you want to create a wand of Personal Weapon Agumentation that you just have to make UMD roll to emulate it just as if you were creating a wand of light) RAW can rule it either way and RAI is fuzzy at best. Edit:spelling
Elderich 05-17-06, 04:24 PM	the general ruling of the CO boards is that they ment that eratta to eliminate crafting items of infusions.The Goggles on page 109 of Magic of Eberron specificaly allow the creator to use an infusion instead of a spell in the item creation.