Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 12:11 AM	So i'm starting a roleplay intense game soon in a little over a week and the only rule for what books and whatnot to use is "anything with the D&D logo on it and you have to have the physical book to show me at the table" so that rules alot of FR stuff out as those books don't have the "D&D logo" on them.. but interesting enough, the ECS book has it, so I dug right into the artificer. I'm on page 4 of the optomization thead, read the v2.0 faq thingie on him, but STILL can't decide what else to use. Gestalt is a rule from the Unearthed Arcana (UA) pg. 72 Starting level 3. So far I think I want Human Artificer/??? (Maybe human paragon for 3 levels?) Wizard possibilities: Just take the free spells per level and don't stress over scribing. You don't need to make UMD checks on arcane wands any longer. Exemplar Possibilities Skill Artistry - +4 on UMD, +4 spellcraft (lvl4), knowledges? (lvl7) Skill Mastery - take 10 on a whole lot of skills (int+1+lvl). 'nuff said. Lend Talent - Lvl8 Exemplar can give up skill totals (=to lvl) to allys to help in crafting and maybe UMD, I guess. But what is good to give an ally a +8 to in a skill an artificer uses? Free feats: Magical Aptitude (+2 UMD/spellcraft)(lvl3), Skill Focus (lvl 6) Persuasive Performance: Neat way of using a wand to impress NPCs into helping you. lets you use any skill Skill Artistry gives you as if it was diplomacy after doing a 1 minute show with it. Build so far in mind: (always open to change): Artificer to 20 and Gestalt the other side as "Paragon human" (2 or 3 levels, not sure) Wizard 10 Exemplar 8 (Complete Adventurer)(not the full 10, no need for perfect self, the other feat, or another +4 skill) 2+10+8= 20 levels. My DM may or may not allow flaws from UA as well, but I think he wouldn't be too bad on the Human Paragon PrC (UA). Any suggestions? I thought about cleric and wizard (wizard for the bonus feats for metamagic) (cleric for.. healing, i guess) but i don't want to worry about spells ON TOP of being a bad*** artificer. What do you all suggest? I kinda lean towards blastificer (blast spell artificer) over the buffificer (buff spell artificer) but 'm open too all sorts of suggestions. No one else owns any eberron books in my group, or alot of the newer books except DMG2, PHB2, Complete scoundrel, and Spell conpendium, but we have mostly everything else. (Sidenote: I will update this first post with my build as I make it to keep things going smooth) (Sidenote2: My DM is currectly reading it now to consider allowing it, but I want to use the buisness rules from DMG2 to gain me a bit of money on the side. Also I'm considering the Master and Apprentice stuff myself, too.)
Mysk 01-24-07, 12:20 AM	I'm currently in a campaign as a Dwarf Artificer//Wizard 3. While everyone else is feat starved in their gestalt builds, I'm actually looking at more than I know what to do with! It's a nice feeling. While I don't recomend the dwarf race (I chose it for rp reasons) a Human Art/Wiz 20 has a feat every 3,4, and 5 levels. Plus 2 at 1. That's really a lot of feats. If you grabbed Twin, Quicken, Extend, and Persistant Spell through your feats and the two crafting feats that give 25% off EXP and GP Cost. You can then go crazy with your feats like Wand Mastery, Improved Homunculus, you can further specialize in blasting or buffing, or grab like Eldeen Plantgrafter or something. It's just nice to be able to reach a peak in performance where all your waiting for is caster levels to make items on by level 10 or so. :) These are just my oppinions of course. Hope that helped!
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 12:23 AM	I was actually thinking the Apprentice feat in the DMG2 and maybe the Buisness Savvy feat in the same book (or whatever feats needed for a buisness). But wizard.. I don't know. Only an extra feat at 5 10 15 and I believe 20. Thats not much, and then I have to worry about actually being a wizard (high maintenance :weep: ). Scribing scrolls into my book, spells per day. ect. Ugh. Heh.
Mysk 01-24-07, 12:40 AM	In truth, so far I've gotten by on the 2 spells per level for free deal the wizard grants the book. Mind you i've played this guy from level 1 so far, so i've been able to choose the spells based on the world around me. The other factor that I chose when becoming a wizard/artificer was that I was to be the only arcane caster for the group. So combining item creation and casting was a no brainer so the classes meshed great. To be honest i'm not familiar with the DMG II, As a player I was discouraged from reading it, and haven't yet. But you've intrigued me with that feat, i'll look it up (probably too late to matter by then). The thing you have to look at is this. Sure wizard is only giving you 1 feat every 5 levels, but artificer also gives you metamagic every 4. You can have all the feats you need early and can use your Level feats (1,3,6,9 etc) on fun feats instead of chore feats. Though i'm not saying metamagic is a chore, i'm simply saying that the ultimate ammount of feats you are going to get is worth it for me. Now I may be singing a different song in a few months because the Journeyman base class drew my eye in the upcoming Dungeonscape (I think) book. If that's more towards what I want then i'll be shouting it's praise for synergy. Another thing that Wizard gives benefit is on wands. Making UMD checks is painful at low levels, with the wizard spell list as your own it's quite a bit easier. If you're too worried about high maintenance, perhaps Warlock would be more up your alley? It also benefits the artificer's UMD checks with the ability to take 10 on the check at level 4 instead of 11 for artificer.
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 12:54 AM	Okay so the points which I have made off of this are: Wizard - Just take the free spells per level and don't stress over scribing. Wizard - You don't need to make UMD checks on arcane wands any longer.
Mysk 01-24-07, 01:06 AM	Well the 2/level could carry you for a bit really. That would work especially if you focus more on being an artificer which it seems like you want to do anyways. Just think of the wizard spells as backup tricks and learn them accordingly. Pack wands for your damage, and instead of using Scribe Scroll to make a bunch of spells that may or may not have uses through the day, just put those in your book and prepare them if that's the way you want to go. Don't forget about your familiar too if you go Wizard. A raven is a decent pick for a pocket semi scout. Though the Homunculus (Flier one, forget the name of it atm) could be considered superior for scouting. Warlock would net you -Zero Bonus Feats -All day blasting -Handful of tricks -Deceive Item at Level 4 (A UMD dream) If you're a human you could consider instead going for some sort of Chameleon build to gain the floating feat at its second level. Maybe Rogue2/Human Paragon 3/Chameleon X (!0?)/? With Artificer on the other side you'd be able to do just about anything you wish given preparation time. Hope i'm helping and not just rambling >.>;
ressurrector 01-24-07, 01:06 AM	But wizard.. I don't know. Only an extra feat at 5 10 15 and I believe 20. Thats not much, and then I have to worry about actually being a wizard (high maintenance :weep: ). Scribing scrolls into my book, spells per day. ect. Ugh. Heh. Remember, you can PrC up your Wizard. Artificier20 on one side and Wiz5/Whatever10/Whatever5 on the other side. It's nice that you don't need to UMD your Sorc/Wiz wands that you've made, and also your Metamagic feats give you goodies on both sides.
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 01:36 AM	Mysk: Nah, The warlock doesn't strike me. My focus is the extra feats, as that seems more liberating. Right now I think I may do Artificer to 20 and Gestalt the other side as "Paragon human" (2 or 3 levels, not sure) Wizard 10 Exemplar 8 (Complete Adventurer)(not the full 10, no need for perfect self, the other feat, or another +4 skill) 2+10+8= 20 levels. I've never multiclassed, though, atleast not enough to get problems. Would I get penaltys for this build? Points for Exemplar Skill Artistry - +4 on UMD, +4 spellcraft (lvl4), knowledges? (lvl7) Skill Mastery - take 10 on a whole lot of skills (int+1+lvl). 'nuff said. Lend Talent - Lvl8 Exemplar can give up skill totals (=to lvl) to allys to help in crafting and maybe UMD, I guess. But what is good to give an ally a +8 to in a skill an artificer uses? Free feats: Magical Aptitude (+2 UMD/spellcraft)(lvl3), Skill Focus (lvl 6) Persuasive Performance: Neat way of using a wand to impress NPCs into helping you. lets you use any skill Skill Artistry gives you as if it was diplomacy after doing a 1 minute show with it.
JaronK 01-24-07, 01:49 AM	Not Wizard... Archivist (Heroes of Horror, if you've got it). Cast everything! JaronK
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 02:35 AM	I don't own heros of horror, I should but it, though, I looooooove the alignment ideas in it, which I COMPLETELY agree with, I mean, in real life it's more interesting when good and evil are relative terms and things get psychological and tricky. :D
widow 01-24-07, 03:10 AM	If the game is totally open, see if you can use generic classes from unearthed arcania. You could go Warrior 4/Expert 4 for 6 bonus feats of any kind. Follow it up with any PrC you want. I would not go wizard though if you are just looking for feats. If you go into any PrC with the wizard, you will most likely eat any extra feats the wizard would provide. Only go wizard if you want spells. Jaronk suggestion is even better now that the FAQ stated that artificers do actual make divine or arcane scrolls. They used to just make generic magic scrolls that you could not copy in your spell book making the warlock level 13 power a little nicer. The chameleon in races of destiny might be nice for your build. It gets a bonus floating feat each day, stat bonuses, and can change up its abilities alot.
Pinky's brain 01-24-07, 11:26 AM	Wizard 10 doesn't net you a whole lot The ECS has both one of the most capable offensive classes in the game, and one of the most capable defensive classes in the game ... since you are playing Gestalt you might as well take them both. Spend some levels on Warforged Juggernaut instead of wizard, take some fighter levels to offset the loss of feats if you find it necessary.
ChristopherGroves 01-24-07, 11:31 AM	The last few artificer levels could be PrC'd if you want (if the game will go to 20). Since the artificer can do your magics for you on the one side, I'd likely go with something funky on the other. Like a Warforged Monk / Fighter / racial-sub Paladin / Juggernaut / Spellcarved Soldier / whatever. That'd be fun.
imneuromancer 01-24-07, 11:42 AM	Not Wizard... Archivist (Heroes of Horror, if you've got it). Cast everything! JaronK Oh wow, this is just a GREAT idea. the problem with the archivist is that you don't always have access to some classes scrolls and such (how many paladins have scribe scroll?). With the artificer, you get any spell you want, usually at a "discounted" spell level if it is paladin/ranger/etc. Wow, great combination. This combo is just stupidly game breaking, really. Nice work JaronK :-)
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 03:25 PM	If the game is totally open, see if you can use generic classes from unearthed arcania. You could go Warrior 4/Expert 4 for 6 bonus feats of any kind. Follow it up with any PrC you want. I think that's a variant rule and usually when we use it you cant mix generic with regular classes. That might even be in the book too, I don't know, but we usually consider it pretty broken heh. I would not go wizard though if you are just looking for feats. If you go into any PrC with the wizard, you will most likely eat any extra feats the wizard would provide. Only go wizard if you want spells. Wizard gets a feat at 5 and 10. If I go 10 levels of wizard, I think it's fine. Especially since I have the character make up for the other 10 levels in 2 Human Paragon and 8 Exemplar or 3paragon/7exemplar, whichever I decide. Jaronk suggestion is even better now that the FAQ stated that artificers do actual make divine or arcane scrolls. They used to just make generic magic scrolls that you could not copy in your spell book making the warlock level 13 power a little nicer. I checked the offical D&D FAQ and the eberron errata. Artificers don't make arcane or divine scrolls. They're generic. Wizard 10 doesn't net you a whole lot The ECS has both one of the most capable offensive classes in the game, and one of the most capable defensive classes in the game ... since you are playing Gestalt you might as well take them both. Spend some levels on Warforged Juggernaut instead of wizard, take some fighter levels to offset the loss of feats if you find it necessary. No that's alright, as an artificer I stay in the back most of the time anyways and can persist some useful stuff to keep me safe anyways. Also, fighter only gives you fighter bonus feats. No metamagic, which is what I really want.
ressurrector 01-24-07, 03:39 PM	Just saying: 10 levels of wizard, 2 human paragon, and exemplar 8 is a bit of a waste. If you're going to use wizard on one side make it Wizard+Wizard PrCs. (some of which can be qualified for with Metamagic Feats and skill ranks only) Why you want exemplar I have no idea, it's just tanking one side of your casting.
Subedei 01-24-07, 03:50 PM	Artificer//Warblade/Master of Nine.
JaronK 01-24-07, 04:13 PM	Oh wow, this is just a GREAT idea. the problem with the archivist is that you don't always have access to some classes scrolls and such (how many paladins have scribe scroll?). With the artificer, you get any spell you want, usually at a "discounted" spell level if it is paladin/ranger/etc. Wow, great combination. This combo is just stupidly game breaking, really. Nice work JaronK :-) I win at teh D&D! Though, it should be noted that you don't need Paladins with Scribe Scroll, as, per the DMG, you can create any magic item so long as you have all the requirements available... they don't have to be on the same person. Thus, an Archivist with Scribe Scroll can work with a Paladin who doesn't have the feat to create a Paladin scroll, because between the two they've got all the requirements. JaronK
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 05:31 PM	Just saying: 10 levels of wizard, 2 human paragon, and exemplar 8 is a bit of a waste. If you're going to use wizard on one side make it Wizard+Wizard PrCs. (some of which can be qualified for with Metamagic Feats and skill ranks only) Why you want exemplar I have no idea, it's just tanking one side of your casting. The only reason I like wizard at all is because it's the only class I know that can give me free metamagic feats (of my chosing). If you can suggest another way to use those 10 levels other than in wizard to gain free feats of my chosing (or of metamagic) then please. That is really the only reason i'm taking it, for the two free feats. Other than that, I don't need it.. and I don't want to do a wizard PrC because i'm concentrating on artificer to make it as powerful as possible. (by the way, no LA on gestalt in this game, it's free, so that's why I feel like I have to take something, and not just anything)
Subedei 01-24-07, 05:39 PM	It's very hard for an artificer to keep up with a wizard in spellcasting considering it costs you so much to make anything over 4th level. Wizard is nice because it allows you to cast all those minor spells you'd normally have to pay for, for free and all those high level spells you can just cast instead of making a staff or a scroll. Then when you really, really need something dead you can use one of those crazy staves that holds 3 wands and allows you to activate them all simultaneously and metamagic the hell out of all three of them. Wizard is there to save you loads of money so you can afford to do this when it matters. Alternately you can be primarily melee or archery based, use your artificer side to enhance that with lots of magic items and a few persistant spells, and have some utility spells there to back you up if you really need it. Whatever you choose to do with the other side you should pick something that takes the pressure off artificer and allows you to fight effectively without spending money.
ressurrector 01-24-07, 06:57 PM	Hmmm, if you're focusing on metamagic, I'd seriously say to take Incantrix...except you said no FR... I know there has to be a better way to get 2 metamagic feats than sinking 10 levels into wizard. Or at least a way to better use 10 levels of Wizard than just 2 metamagic feats.
eRaz0r 01-24-07, 08:01 PM	The Artificer is not really hurting for feats. They get almost all the item creation feats, and bonus feats which can be metamagic feats. A non-gestalt Art20 should be fine for that. Basically, AFAICT, there are two ways to do a gestalt character : Jack of All Trades (JOAT) or Synergy. JOAT builds try to cover the weaknesses of one class with the strengths of a different class. Something like Wizard 20// Fighter 20 could be considered a JOAT build, since you cover the low HD , BAB, and Fort saves of the wizard with the Fighter, and the low will saves of the fighter with the wizard. You get spells AND fighter feats. The "Synergy" approach takes an aspect of one class and builds on it with a different class, by sharing resources. A wizard// Artificer build synergizes well because both classes benefit from high intelligence, item creation and metamagic feats and so on. The warblade//Artificer gestalt is an interesting mix of JOAT and Synergy. You get the biggest HD in the game, full BAB, cleric saves (IIRC), yet several warblade abilities are keyed off intelligence which you'll want to be high because of the Artificer's reliance on Int for spellcasting DCs and bonus infusions. Such a build is probably going to rely a lot on buffs, which the Artificer can easily do as well as anyone. You also don't have arcane spell failure chances in armor (from artificer) and if you happen to be warforged, you could even heal yourself in combat with the line of Repair infusions. Hmm - speaking of Tome of Battle : I wonder what a Druid // Crusader gestalt might look like. Summon yourself some help and use White Raven Tactics :)
uneasyspider 01-24-07, 09:58 PM	Hmmm, if you're focusing on metamagic, I'd seriously say to take Incantrix...except you said no FR... I know there has to be a better way to get 2 metamagic feats than sinking 10 levels into wizard. Or at least a way to better use 10 levels of Wizard than just 2 metamagic feats. I agree. I wish I could think of something else... for the most part, it's not so bad. Atleast free UMD and a few fifth level spells to boot. I can do a little this and that. I'm in it for the feats though, if I can get alot of metamagic feats and the buisness and apprentice feats from the DMG2 I can squeeze in a little more of a few things and have a nice super specialized character in many ways. I wanna improve my strengths instead of just have more tricks. The Artificer is not really hurting for feats. They get almost all the item creation feats, and bonus feats which can be metamagic feats. A non-gestalt Art20 should be fine for that. Actually I just know there's alot of feats to take and I'd like to get as many of them as possible, as unlike a usual character, I get two class progressions, so I might as well take advantage of it. I really don't want to concentrate on anyhting else other than my artificer abilities, and I have ALOT of them.
Pinky's brain 01-24-07, 10:15 PM	No that's alright, as an artificer I stay in the back most of the time anyways and can persist some useful stuff to keep me safe anyways. Also, fighter only gives you fighter bonus feats. No metamagic, which is what I really want. Staying back only protects you against melee.
eRaz0r 01-24-07, 10:43 PM	Well one problem with Wizard is arcane spell failure. Since the artificer doesn't have any, you'll need to work out a way to get rid of your ASF for the wizard or lose one of the benefits of artificer (armored casting). If you're looking to capitalize on the artificer as your "main" class, make sure you're not taking another class that is going to limit what you can do. Wizard is still a strong choice, but consider taking a level of Spellsword to reduce your ASF. Abjurant Champion is also a strong choice. I'm not sure if these classes count as "combined" like Mystic Theurge does (and therefore, not eligible for gestalt) - check with your DM. IMHO I really don't think one bonus wizard feat at 10th level is worth all that much compared with many of the PrC benefits available to you. The mere fact you're gestalt with a casting class means your metamagic and item creation feats from the artificer will be doing double duty. Taking 10 levels of wizard for 2 feats - it just doesn't sound like a great trade off to me. It really depends on your role, I guess. I'd even consider another spontaneous caster type, like Sorcerer or even Bard. The Artificer gives you all those metamagic feats you can apply to your spells, as well as plenty of utility spells in the form of scrolls or wands - the kinds of spells the Sorcerer never takes on his "spells known" because they just don't come up over and over, and the Sorcerer gives the Artificer the endurance of all those extra spells per day. There's some minor Charisma synergy too. Oh - and if you're really worried about feats, I'd recommend going with the Chameleon PrC from Races of Destiny (if it's available to you), so that you can get a floating feat that you can change (daily IIRC). That will take care of any missing Metamagic or Item Creation feat that you think you need and you can concentrate on something useful :)
HoshiAdam 01-24-07, 10:53 PM	So, you are looking for bonus metamagic feats. If you really don't care about your wizard spellcasting: Wizard1/Human Paragon3/Fighter1/Spellsword3/Loremaster3 That gets you to level 11, with 3 bonus metamagic feats (assuming you have an Int of 20 at that point) and 8th level wizard spellcasting. However, it does require one skill focus in a knowledge skill.
Subedei 01-24-07, 11:34 PM	Seriously man, you should at least consider Warblade, 3 feats is not worth throwing away that kind of power.
ressurrector 01-25-07, 12:12 AM	I agree. I wish I could think of something else... for the most part, it's not so bad. Atleast free UMD and a few fifth level spells to boot. I can do a little this and that. I'm in it for the feats though, if I can get alot of metamagic feats and the buisness and apprentice feats from the DMG2 I can squeeze in a little more of a few things and have a nice super specialized character in many ways. I wanna improve my strengths instead of just have more tricks. Actually I just know there's alot of feats to take and I'd like to get as many of them as possible, as unlike a usual character, I get two class progressions, so I might as well take advantage of it. I really don't want to concentrate on anyhting else other than my artificer abilities, and I have ALOT of them. If that's all you want to get out of gestalt...you should just goto your DM and ask if you can have extra bonus feats instead of an additional class. The way you're heading you're going to be so far behind the rest of the party's powerlevel (if they use gestalt for any kind of power) that you won't be able to do much. Convince him to let you use generic classes from Unearthed Arcana, or ask if you can have bonus feats from the wizard list every other level. (like fighter bonus feats, but wizard ones. Concidering it's just the feats and nothing else it should be balanced somewhat with true gestalt characters)
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 01:36 AM	Truthfully, i'm not sure yet. As it is right now nothing sounds close to tempting except for my build above as that enhances my skills and gives me more feats. And more feats at earlier levels means i'm an artificer damage-dealing-persisting machine. If anyhting sounded worthwhile, I would take it. But I'm interesting in the crafting and wand-blasting as my character focus right now. I really don't feel like mixing melee into there as that would stretch me out pretty thin and then I have to worry about almost all of my stats, then.
ressurrector 01-25-07, 02:21 AM	If you just want skills, than do rogue levels. It'll boost your skills, net you sneak attack dice to add to ray spells, evasion to help stay away from AoE spells, good reflex saves, special options, etc... Sure, it has the same bab/HD as artificier, but at least it's better than 10 levels of Wizard just for two feats... Other than that, I would say to concider Warblade or Swordsage, you can still benefit from stances and counters even when not in melee. Shadow Jaunt and such, along with the higher level Shadow Hand stances can help keep you out of melee better than just artificier can.
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 02:27 AM	What books are those from, though, ressurrector? And by skills i meant bonuses to skills. Rogue wouldn't be my style.. I wouldn't feel comfortable. It would feel cheezy.
Subedei 01-25-07, 02:36 AM	Do you mean Warblade and Swordsage? They're from Tome of Battle. Generic Classes are from Unearthed Arcana.
ressurrector 01-25-07, 02:38 AM	How about Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, or Dragon Shaaman? (Comp Arcane, Dragon Magic, PHB II) In any of these cases you have alot of low level powers usable whenever you want, so you can stay out of range while keeping wands and scrolls for important fights. None of these classes require any feat expenditure, andd would enhance your abilities much more than 2 metamagic feats. As a sidenote, it isn't cheesy, it's gestalt. The whole point is to be Super-Powered-Hero, able to do things non-gestalt characters can't even come close to doing without magic items, or more character levels.
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 02:55 AM	Do you mean Warblade and Swordsage? They're from Tome of Battle. Generic Classes are from Unearthed Arcana. Hmm. We don't have Tome... wait, yes we do. Now I have to look it up. Heh. As a sidenote, it isn't cheesy, it's gestalt. The whole point is to be Super-Powered-Hero, able to do things non-gestalt characters can't even come close to doing without magic items, or more character levels. True. I'm just trying to find a flavor I want to mix with. Unless it's stupidly useful and a no-brainer, it comes down to taste, as basically unless I take 10 wizard for feats i'm basically almost making an entire other character in the same one.
ressurrector 01-25-07, 03:03 AM	So what is the character theme you're going for? All I've gotten so far is you plan to use metamagic feats with wands, but nothing of the personality of playstyle you plan to use. Might make it a bit easier to find some class that meshes.
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 03:15 AM	Hmm. Well. This is my first artificer, and the reason I decided to try it was because I wasn't sure what to play so I read and read and read into the class, read all over the boards and absorbed everything that is artificer and just completely loved it.. but then even though everything on that side was doen for me I realized I couldn't think of what to do with my other gestalt side or my template, so I made threads for them so I could figure out. Mind you, right now I think I'm on the verge of (if flaws are allowed) 11 feats before character level 10.. which would be extraordinary. I would be a powerhouse. Not to mention using the DMG2 rules I will have a buisness open for myself while i'm adventuring and can sell magical items and special craft them myself as well. My idea seems to be a magic item shop owner, apprenticed under a more powerful one who goes off adventuring (CL 3) and learns more about himself and gains more potent abilities in time. Being a human paragon and maybe (if psy is allowed) of the Phrenic template my character would be one hell of a high quality human. The only way he could be any more perfect in a roleplay and physical looks sense is if he actually had the paragon template from the ELH. So being all this he goes out, learns to craft better items, makes his own wands, imbues them with alot of metamagic (using lvl3 infusion metamagic item and lvl 1 infusion spellstoring item) and persist spell and quickens/twins/ ect alot of the wands to do amazing damage. Later I can craft my own portable hole, make a Dedicated Wright, and have the little bugger make my things for me.. and considering by higher level I will be farther and farther from my shop; I'll use teleport or Dim Door to get back in time every few days or weeks to see how things have progressed. :D The idea is to be an adventuring crafter/shopkeeper. I'm planning to take all the crafting feats to use fabricate and make some masterwork items that way so I don't need to be in a town with a forge to make swords and armor and whatnot. I think my goal is to be rich (in the sense of a large house, servents, the whole nine yards) and maybe adventure every now and then but still tend to buisness and money (for living expenses and home life).
Subedei 01-25-07, 04:33 AM	I think it'd be productive to figure out just how many wand charges you expect (or intend) to use in a day of heavy combat and then figure out how much that'll end up costing you. Artificer is indeed a really fun class to play, but you need to be careful. I was all excited about the truly vast number of things an Artificer could potentially accomplish when I first played one. I was going to have a collection of utility spells for every concievable situation, finally be able to get some of those wondrous items I always wanted but could never afford, my primary offense would be gunslinger style dual wand weilding, I'd run a potion shop to bring in extra cash etc. What I soon realized is that only a handful of the things I wanted to do were actually possible. I just didn't have the money to even keep a large diversity combat spells available and ended up using 2-3 buffs wands and 2 orb wands. I put a lot of thought into conserving wand charges as much as possible, avoided combat when I could to save money for wondrous items and shifted my focus to persistant buffs and melee combat rather than my original metamagiced blaster offense. Whenever you want to do something you'll first think of how much it's going to cost you and if it'll provide a return on your investment. Playing an Artificer is going to turn you into Mr. Scrooge ;)
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 07:14 AM	How does that dual wand weilding work? just lets you chose from two diffrent standard actions to take or is it some sort of two weapon fighting thing?
ksbsnowowl 01-25-07, 08:41 AM	Rogue wouldn't be my style.. I wouldn't feel comfortable. It would feel cheezy.The great thing about rogue is that its flavor is so maleable that it can literally be anything. A theif, a street thug, a detective, a gunslinger, a businessman, a diplomat - all those things are (arguably) best represented by a rogue. Also, note that by the time you would get your second wizard bonus feat (around character level 13) you've already gotten two rogue special abilities (at levels 10 and 13) that can be used to get any feat you qualify for.Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options. Crippling Strike (Ex): ... Defensive Roll (Ex): ... Improved Evasion (Ex): ... Opportunist (Ex): ... Skill Mastery: ... Slippery Mind (Ex): ... Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.In the mean time, you would have gotten 4 more skill points per level (which can go toward your crafting skills, to help your castings of fabricate), evasion (to help keep you alive), a second good save, uncanny dodge (to help keep you alive), and a small boost to your scorching ray attacks (sneak attack). And keep in mind, if you were going to delay your wizard class levels anyway, you weren't going to get that first metamagic bonus feat until 7th or 8th level, and the second one until 12th or 13th. Now you're delaying that first feat until 10th, but you are gaining a host of abilities that will remain useful throughout your character's career (unlike delayed wizard casting, which will be increasingly ineffectual against creatures of your own CR.)
ressurrector 01-25-07, 09:50 AM	You could use the rogue to half to show off his buisness skills. Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy are all skills no shop owner should be without. Not to mention Spot, Listen, and Search (to stop theives) and Forgery (to recognise forgeries). Being a rogue, in this case, just means you've got a wider breadth of character knowledge and skill, and know how to aim those wands for some guys face.
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 11:19 AM	I just read the business part of the DMG2 and got refamiliarized with it. Seeming as I start at level 3 I dont think I have enough gold to start a Shopkeeper like business. So I may hold that off for a little while, but still taking the feat to make myself better with my business later. I still like the 2 levels of human paragon idea, and I like the rogue idea for the extra feat, but it means taking rogue to 13 for the 2 feats.. and the exemplar seems very useful right now towards alllllll the skills i'll need for this character, such as Profession (shopkeeper), craft (all the crafts I wanna take), appraise, ect. I have to be maxed out in alot of these, so I don't know... thankfully I'll ahve alot of intelligence. In closing of this reply; I like the rogue idea, but I wish not to give up exemplar to 8 (or 7, whichever) or the two levels of human paragon. I may do full rogue, though, instead for the feats, but I have to do some number crunching to see if it's better out that way. As it starts, human paragon is really nice for teh feat (which rogue seems to possibly replace) and for the static class-skill ability, which I may just need for one of the secondary business skills that artificer won't have (you get bonuses to profit check for that) such as diplomacy (yes rogue has it) or sense motice... actually rogue has that too. Wow, midpost I just saw the light. I'll now need to look into this. Maybe I can do 13 rogue/7 exemplar. Hmm. I might look into exemplar and see just how many levels of it I really need.
uneasyspider 01-25-07, 05:23 PM	Alright, after plenty of number crunching i've come up with the following: Using my first level stats I have a 20 intelligence. Also, the DM made a special rule where you get 2 skills of choice, no matter the character, at max ranks every level without using skill points. It's a neat perk anotehr player in thegame just told me about (apparently I didn't pay attention at the character dice-rolling/discussion game) The following is based on that. 4(artificer)+ 5(int) 2(free) __ 11 skill points a level from 2-20. I've actually found I only need the following skills maxed out: appraise [obvious reasons & shopkeeping secondary skill] concentration [upto 20 modifier only, i guess?] disable divice knowledge (arcana) knowledge (local) [foreseeing it's use as a shopkeeper] open locks profession (shopkeeping) sense motive [secondary skill for shopkeeping] search spellcraft use magical device = if i'm the rogue in the party, if not, i won't take them. Aside from that the following skills need only one or three ranks: craft weaponsmithing craft armorsmithing craft pottery (1 rank) Reason being that with smithing I only need to make a max of DC20 to make masterwork, and with pottery DC14 for my homunculus. Being as that may, I don't see the rogue as a necessity for skill points. Also, i'm not too concerned about my safety where i'd give up wizard levels for evasion, encanny dodge, ect.
uneasyspider 01-26-07, 12:27 PM	:bump:
FabulousRex 01-26-07, 01:08 PM	I don't know why you asked for help, you know what you want, and all of the (really good) suggestions being tossed around here have been shot down for RP reasons. Just be a Human Paragon like you wanted, have some ineffectual Wizard casting, and do your thing. I'ld still strongly recommend Rogue levels (if you don't like Sneak Attack, UA has a Feat Rogue http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue that gives you bonus feats instead of SA). Or go pure Wizard and enhance your wand-ing with 'real' magic. There's a bunch of synergy there. Basically, you will be making your PC less powerful by taking Wiz/H.Paragon/Exemplar, but that's OK if you want a good RP thing going on...