Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tweedledope 10-18-05, 03:14 PM	Okay...I need a general consensus on a question I have regarding the Artificer. What would be more beneficial...take metamagic feats (thus using up everso important feat slots) and then applying them to wands via Metamagic Spell Trigger, or taking the feat Dual Wand Wielder and buying/creating metamagic wands? Both seem to have their plusses but to me it seems that the Dual Wand Wielder seems to be an easier route. BTW...has anyone noticed that if you take Dual Wand Wielder and Cull Wand Essence from the Magic of Eberron that you can do 20d6 Damage/round? Crazy man...I love Artificers. -=TD=-
Elderich 10-18-05, 03:46 PM	MM Feats are strictly better. What can you do with 3 (or 4) wand blasts, that you cant do with 2? You can quicken then fire one wand if you need to and have way to much gold to spare, and that should be fine. What does that off hand wand get you that you really need, besides coolness? Secondly, wands are not what you want. Staffs are where it is at. Free Caster level bump means a staff charge will be cheaper to blast from than a wand in most cases. Dual staff weilder? That I would take.
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 04:25 PM	I agree : MM feats are better than 2 wands wielding. 1/ Wands top out at 4th level, and even when heightened, twinned, quickened, etc for free - are still often less useful than a higher level spell. 2/ Staffs are better, but depending on your DM, may not offer the cheese that some people on the board seem to think they do : In particular the Stafficer that Elderich links to in his sig is a debatable bit of rules-twisting. Furthermore, the DMG implies that Staffs always have to hold more than one spell (and therefore aren't as cost-effective as wands per shot). In any case, Staffs are usually superior to Wands because of the spells they can hold. At 20th level, do you want to be using Persistent Shapechange from a Staff of Many Forms (custom : AlterSelf 1 charge, Shapechange 1 charge) so you can assume the (su) abilities of any creature you know of at will, all day. .. or firing off two wands of Scorching Ray that you've had to Heighten with MMI to 9th level (to ensure penetrating spell defenses) and also expending charges through them like water to Twin or Quicken them as well ? (and +1 charge from the 2nd hand) ? I guess if you were made of money, and had limitless Dedicated Wrights to keep churning these wands out, then it wouldn't matter :)
Llochlyn 10-18-05, 04:37 PM	That's also why artificer have that handy metamagic item infusion... It's just too beautiful to be true, and to take advantage of it, I assume you need the metamagic feat you apply to the item * checking * Yup, so metamagic item can make your wands and staves etc cooler... That said, maybe you don't need metamagic so badly and a few of those feats are enough for your gaming style, allowing you to take the dual wielding path too... and with metamagic item, let's say it, those orb spells can be used oftenoftenoften without hurting your wallet too much Here on the CO, artificer builds are extremists, for being optimized... at the table, you DONT want to sling Empowered Twinned Maximized Energy Admixtured Quickened scorching rays twice or thrice in a round, because you fellow players are gonna hate you ... So you won't need ALL those feats... If you are to choose, persistant spell is a must be in my opinion, allowing you to boost dexterity for wand blasting... the energy substitution is handy too, but well, you'll have more than one magic item, so you can do without if you're a mad wand crafter that said, it's a matter of taste
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 07:42 PM	Yeah - in a real game, I'd never allow the Stafficer. I'd also not really want to play a Blastificer. I like generalists, and the artificer lends itself to being a generalist really nicely. Take a mix of buffing feats (Persistent and Extend) and blasting feats (empower, Or Energy Sub, Admix Or Quicken Or Twin etc), and throw in Craft Contingent spell and Craft Construct. You'll be quite the powerhouse with only one MM feat at any one time, without breaking the game completely.
Caelic 10-18-05, 08:09 PM	Hey! Hey, now! Who's the foremost advocate of generalist artificers over blastificers? :)
eRaz0r 10-18-05, 08:42 PM	Me, of course - but only at home :) Out here, it might be you. Never claimed otherwise, so don't take it so personally.
catharz 10-18-05, 08:52 PM	Especially in Mark of Heroes (or similarly limited campaigns) campaigns you have to strike a balance. First of all, you can't make up staves. Secondly, the max-item-gp-per-level thing shoves most staves out of a character's price range. These both make wands more attractive. Thirdly, waiting until 12th level before you can make staves will take a while. That said, I'm going to go ahead and reccomend Metamagic. But metamagic as a wand-using buffer, at least until you get up there in the levels. What follows is a shameless cry for attention, pimping a character I've been kicking around like my cash flow depends in it... Warforged Artificer with all the substitution levels (except 5, if you aren't in Mark of Heroes). At mid levels, what you want is a Monk's Belt (6,500 gp crafted), a wand of Stone Fist [CAr] (375 gp crafted), and a Battlefist. Unless you have a very generous stat array, the wisdom (or lack thereof) to AC doesn't matter. What does is the attack routine. Persist the Stone Fist (this isn't my idea). You get +6 to strength for attacks and another slam. Your (2) slam attacks deal 1d8+0.5*Str, and your unarmed strikes deal 2d6+Str (unless you can convince your DM that it can be UMD'ed to 4d8). Suddently, you have a warfored melee machine. For defense throw in Magic Vestiment (1st level infusion) on a shield of some sort (your Caster's Shield, if you made one) and on your Composite Plating. Preferably with caster level boosters. At higher levels you can grab a Staff of Fauna [CD] for Greater Magic Fang (shared between you and your Battlefist), a Wand of Divine power (didn't see that coming :P), and a Staff of Oaken Battle [CD] (if you want to be an ass). For a 20th-level build, Artificer 16/Spellcarved Soldier 4 is great, but I woulden't waste time on ScS in Mark of Heroes or lower-level campaigns.
Tweedledope 10-18-05, 09:34 PM	Hmm...is it possible to wield two staves simultaneously? If so, where in the rules does it allow this cause I guarantee my DM is gonna say nuh-uh. Also, where is Magical Aptitude found? -=TD=-
R2Keen2 10-18-05, 09:44 PM	its a feat from heroes of might i believe
Tweedledope 10-18-05, 10:44 PM	Wow...I'm dumb. I found Magical Aptitude...PhB, who'd'a'thunk? -=TD=-
deathwishjoe 10-18-05, 11:20 PM	while I think I agree with everyone here. metamagic effects are sweet. just something I feel I should point out. dont discount dual wand weilder right off the bat. daul wand wielder takes a feat just like quicken spell but essentially allows the same thing for 1/4 the cost in charges. just remember that.
jstorrie 10-18-05, 11:58 PM	Warforged Artificer with all the substitution levels (except 5, if you aren't in Mark of Heroes). Keep in mind that MoH starts at CL 4 right now, so if you don't already have the campaign card that gives you access to the Warforged Artificer sub levels you are likely better off just going Human.
waper9 10-19-05, 12:06 AM	One race I've been enjoying is the strongheart halfling besides human or warforged, you can basically have dual wand + whatever metamagic feats you need. 15 dex for 2 weapon fighting is doable with a halfling who gets +2 dex, and str tends to be a dump stat for the artificer anyway. Not to mention, the bonus feat makes up for needing to take 2 weapon fighting i feel. That said, extend spell, and persistent spell is probably my most favorite metamagic feats. Almost every type of artificer benefits from these, and what's not to love about day long buffs? Not to mention, a lot of controlling the field type spells, and damage spells, can benefit from extend spell. I mean, most artificers dont have unlimited charges to use, or whatever else. And catharz... im gonna use your post in the handbook, that setup is very sweet.
catharz 10-19-05, 12:12 AM	Keep in mind that MoH starts at CL 4 right now, so if you don't already have the campaign card that gives you access to the Warforged Artificer sub levels you are likely better off just going Human. Yes, you need the campaign card for full optimization. =/ However, there are still things a warforged artificer can do which a human artificer can't. Use warforged components, for example.
SigmaJargon 10-19-05, 12:41 AM	Especially in Mark of Heroes (or similarly limited campaigns) campaigns you have to strike a balance. First of all, you can't make up staves. Secondly, the max-item-gp-per-level thing shoves most staves out of a character's price range. These both make wands more attractive. Thirdly, waiting until 12th level before you can make staves will take a while.Haven't tried it yet (since the local MoH game got delayed for a couple months due to various conferences and other stuff eating up people's time) but I personally think that eternal wands could make a nice subsitute for wands at low levels. They are not consumable, so they don't catch the massive price boost which is important at low levels when the gp limit is restrictive. They still have all the nice wand features. The 2/day casting limit is annoying, but since they are so relatively inexpensive, and since you can always retool your equipment later to pick up wands or staves, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be given a try. Of course in standard campaigns the normal wand is far preferable, as it is not limited in uses per day. That being said, MM feats are far superior to DWW in an artificer build. You simply get more bang for your buck out of using them via Metamgaic Item infusions and such - it is much more worth it to send off a single (or multiple, via split, twin, quicken, etc) spell for blasting, it is simply more efficient to have persistant or extended buffs on all day, and it all around wins in every way. EDIT: A bit DM dependent (and I haven't checked the Q&A of MoH to find if its been covered) but you could always try using UMD with warforged components.... ;)
eRaz0r 10-19-05, 12:48 PM	EDIT: A bit DM dependent (and I haven't checked the Q&A of MoH to find if its been covered) but you could always try using UMD with warforged components.... ;) DM Dependant - how about cheesy too ? Using UMD for Warforged components is like trying to perform brain surgery with a spoon. It seems like it should work for you the first time, and after that you just won't care to try it again.
catharz 10-19-05, 02:41 PM	Haven't tried it yet (since the local MoH game got delayed for a couple months due to various conferences and other stuff eating up people's time) but I personally think that eternal wands could make a nice subsitute for wands at low levels. They are not consumable, so they don't catch the massive price boost which is important at low levels when the gp limit is restrictive. They still have all the nice wand features. The 2/day casting limit is annoying, but since they are so relatively inexpensive, and since you can always retool your equipment later to pick up wands or staves, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be given a try. As near as I can tell, real wands are cheaper. Correce if I'm wrong, but you get 10 charges for the price of a normal wand, which is most adventures cores out to a lot more uses than an enternal wand. EDIT: A bit DM dependent (and I haven't checked the Q&A of MoH to find if its been covered) but you could always try using UMD with warforged components.... ;) You'll see a nice discussion of that in Caelic's artificer thread. In that one Erazor also said it wasn't possible. It isn't, however, against the RAW. However, customer service came down against the "cyberficer," and IIRC so did Hellcow (aka Keith Baker).
Impeesa 10-19-05, 04:41 PM	You'll see a nice discussion of that in Caelic's artificer thread. In that one Erazor also said it wasn't possible. It isn't, however, against the RAW. However, customer service came down against the "cyberficer," and IIRC so did Hellcow (aka Keith Baker). Though it's straying a little farther off topic, I'll just take this opportunity to throw out an awesome idea: War Troll Warlock using UMD for warforged components - wand sheath, weapon hand, acid resistance. Dripping blood from the constantly regenerating wound where each component is embedded. :D FWIW, I wouldn't allow it for a human, either, but I think a troll is both gruesome and hilarious enough to work. --Impeesa--
Franko 10-19-05, 06:41 PM	As near as I can tell, real wands are cheaper. Correce if I'm wrong, but you get 10 charges for the price of a normal wand, which is most adventures cores out to a lot more uses than an enternal wand. You get 2 charges per day (for infinite days) for similar prices compared to normal wands: level 0: 460gp (normal wizard wand 375) level 1: 820gp (750) level 2: 4420gp (4500) level 3: 10900gp (11250) Now granted, you do loose out on the ability to cast stuff many times in one day; but with Metamagic Item you can make great use of wands (for buffing). [edit] The given prices is base cost (not cost to create). I believe the listed price in eberron of 460 is the base and not the cost to create... could be wrong
catharz 10-19-05, 06:46 PM	You get 2 charges per day (for infinite days) for similar prices compared to normal wands: level 0: 460gp (normal wizard wand 375) level 1: 820gp (750) level 2: 4420gp (4500) level 3: 10900gp (11250) Now granted, you do loose out on the ability to cast stuff many times in one day; but with Metamagic Item you can make great use of wands (for buffing). In other words, if your adventures last an average of 5 days, you're just a little better off with a normal level 1 (i.e. CLW) wand. Any more and the "eternal" variety is probably better. Its seems that with Greater Magic weapon (if you use it from a wand...) the eternal kind is better. Hmm...
hogarth 10-20-05, 01:15 PM	As near as I can tell, real wands are cheaper. Correce if I'm wrong, but you get 10 charges for the price of a normal wand, which is most adventures cores out to a lot more uses than an enternal wand. I think he was specifically talking about the RPGA "Mark of Heroes" campaign where they greatly increased the cost of (regular) wands.
Elderich 10-20-05, 02:27 PM	2/ Staffs are better, but depending on your DM, may not offer the cheese that some people on the board seem to think they do : In particular the Stafficer that Elderich links to in his sig is a debatable bit of rules-twisting. Furthermore, the DMG implies that Staffs always have to hold more than one spell (and therefore aren't as cost-effective as wands per shot).Stafficer is debated, but it is not debatable. It is one of many broken parts of DnD. Something implied in the DMG is not something stated in the DMG. And if your group can’t read or think and insists on multiple spells then a 2 charge 1st level spell is and extra 1000gp. Still much cheaper than a wand, when you consider you can jack the CL, and you don’t blow a feat or three for something that just wont cut it from levels ~12-20.Hmm...Is it possible to wield two staves simultaneously?Possible, but there are not rules. A staff can be 3 ft small, about the size of a short sword, a Light weapon. You would have to observe that a small staff is probably not a double weapon. Quicken one and fire the other.dual wand wielder takes a feat just like quicken spell but essentially allows the same thing for 1/4 the cost in charges. Just remember that.Takes 2 feats. Requires TWF. And, again, why would you need two blasts. Is one ever not enough? And if you ever NEED two blasts, I would guess your not worrying about the extra charges as you put the two extra metamagic feats to good use getting out of trouble.First of all, you can't make up staves. Secondly, the max-item-gp-per-level thing shoves most staves out of a character's price range.An artificer can make a scroll of any spell on any list from just a description of what you want the spell to do, but can't make a staff they want, the way they want. It is quite common to have custom wondrous items, but what ever you do don’t do it with staves? Right. It might not be kosher in some groups, but a blanket "THO SHALL NOT PLAY WITH THINE STAFF" is a bit much. I am not saying don’t use wands. I am saying spending two feats to get to use two of them is silly. And I think we all agree.
catharz 10-20-05, 05:38 PM	I think he was specifically talking about the RPGA "Mark of Heroes" campaign where they greatly increased the cost of (regular) wands. So am I. An artificer can make a scroll of any spell on any list from just a description of what you want the spell to do, but can't make a staff they want, the way they want. Assuming the artificer has spent an expansion slot on the spell or staff in question, yes. The only problem is that staves tend to be really expensive, and don't always have the spells you want in them. I think I illustrate that point above with my suggestion of which staves to use with my artificer build: Those with only a few spells (probably one of which you actually want) and a low price. It is quite common to have custom wondrous items, but what ever you do don’t do it with staves? Right. It might not be kosher in some groups, but a blanket "THO SHALL NOT PLAY WITH THINE STAFF" is a bit much. In campaigns which allow custom items (i.e, not RPGA ones), I tend to see custom wonderous items in the form of 'Monk's Headbands' (switched slots), and 'Rings of Evasive Sustenance' (Combined items). In those campaigns custom staves also seem to be completely legit. Incidentally, I never said that "THO SHALL NOT PLAY WITH THINE STAFF." I am not saying don’t use wands. I am saying spending two feats to get to use two of them is silly. And I think we all agree.
Caelic 10-20-05, 06:20 PM	Thou shalt also wash thine staff every day. Wouldn't want to get a staff infection, after all. (Ducks)
eRaz0r 10-20-05, 07:08 PM	Stafficer is debated, but it is not debatable. It is one of many broken parts of DnD. Please don't. It's broken, yes. It's debatable because the rules for UMD say how one must activate a staff (with the Activate Wand part of the skill). You argue that this doesn't prevent one from activating it in conjunction with Emulate Class Ability, and others argue that it's a restrictive rather than permissive skill. It's specifically not a cut and dried loop hole which you're exploiting. It's open to interpretation, I will give you that. But it's not simply a broken rule. Something implied in the DMG is not something stated in the DMG. And if your group can’t read or think and insists on multiple spells then a 2 charge 1st level spell is and extra 1000gp. Still much cheaper than a wand, Ok, then how about this part of the DMG : A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. Sure sounds like it's restricted to the specific list of staffs in the DMG to me. It's a house-rule to allow custom staffs (albeit a popular one). If you can't read or think ... yada yada. when you consider you can jack the CL, and you don’t blow a feat or three for something that just wont cut it from levels ~12-20.Possible, but there are not rules. A staff can be 3 ft small, about the size of a short sword, a Light weapon. Oh Really? A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long and 2 inches to 3 inches thick, weighing about 5 pounds. Most staffs are wood, but a rare few are bone, metal, or even glass. (These are extremely exotic.) Staffs often have a gem or some device at their tip or are shod in metal at one or both ends. Staffs are often decorated with carvings or runes. A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel. It has AC 7, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 24. Are you sure you're not thinking of Rods ? Or just pulling more stuff out of thin air? We've been over this before Elderich. You adamantly refuse to be corrected, despite the evidence before you, both RAW and RAI. You would have to observe that a small staff is probably not a double weapon. Quicken one and fire the other.Takes 2 feats. Requires TWF. More House rules. A Staff is a magic item and cannot be used as a weapon unless the description says so. The Staff of the Woodlands is the only staff that says it may be used as a weapon, and it's treated as a +2 Quarterstaff. Anything else is your house rule. An artificer can make a scroll of any spell on any list from just a description of what you want the spell to do, but can't make a staff they want, the way they want. It is quite common to have custom wondrous items, but what ever you do don’t do it with staves? The rules my friend. Personally, I think it's silly not to be able to custom-make your own staff with only one spell in it. But the RAW says staffs "store several spells" and "each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells". That's why Artificers can't make whatever they like. Wondrous items have no such limitation, and there are rules there for making your own custom items. And that's why Artificers can do that... Furthermore, there are absolutely *no* rules for emulating a ridiculous CL when activating a Staff. Despite your assertions to the contrary. Right. It might not be kosher in some groups, but a blanket "THO SHALL NOT PLAY WITH THINE STAFF" is a bit much. I am not saying don’t use wands. I am saying spending two feats to get to use two of them is silly. And I think we all agree. Yes we do agree on that. ;)
aelryinth 10-20-05, 09:54 PM	You don't need staves for uber offense...you just need wands of Elemental Orb. No SR, no Saves, just need a ranged touch attack. They get up to 15d6 dmg if you want to make a wand at 15th level of casting ability (silly, with Wand Mastery, but whatever floats your Kazoo). Your basic feats desired are generalist. It's generally assumed for artificer balance that Metamagic INfusions do not stack...each one replaces the one before it, they come from the same source. Thus, you can have one metamagic infusion on a wand or staff at a time, and one Metamagic Spell Trigger going off. In this instance, it is FAR more useful to have the feats Twin and QUicken then Dual Wand Wielder. Dual Wand Wielding requires you to have two wands out and use a full attack action. Quicken and Twin allows you to have one wand out, and uses a standard action, and does TWICE the damage of two wands (in other words, dmg/feat is MUCH higher since you need Two Weapon Fighting for Dual Wanding). Note also that if you Dual wand, the charge increase is PER WAND...you don't save any charges. Quicken is also INSTANTANEOUS...you don't have to declare how crippled you are, and you don't have your hands full. If you don't want to quicken, you don't have to. With Twin Spell, you are basically doing the damage of two wands with one charge, using metamagic infusion. With QUicken, you have the OPTION of using Metamagic Spell Trigger on top of that, for 4 extra charges, to use the wand a second time. So, 30d6 as a standard action and one charge, or 60d6 as a standard action and 6 charges if you really, really need it. Oh, and you can change the Orb's elemental bias to any you need with another infusion. You'd have to do that TWICE with two wands. I break down the routine wands for attack spells you want on the Classes board for eberron, Edyminion's sticky post at the top. Should be on the last page. Basically, you are looking at Scorching Ray, Fireball/lightning bolt, Forceball, Empowered Scorching Ray, Elemental Orb, and Force Orb. You've got individual attack, area attack, mook clearing, save/SR bypass, and incorp attacks all covered with that array, and I put the costs in there too. You need three feats for these wands...Quicken, Twin, and Empower (the last to make Empowered wands). Wand Mastery is assumed. For buffing, you make up Eternal Wands of the Required spells, however many times a day you think you will need them, and learn extend and persistent to maximize the usage of them. Other people have the appropriate buff spells. Just remember you have only so many metamagic infusions to go around (A ring of wizardry III for artificers would be a wonderful thing to get!). Staves are a seperate issue, and work better with buffing spells then having to waste the money on attack spells. They are also more suitable for the role of 'temporary charges' so you don't burn them out...they are pricey to make. Be selective on the spells you pick, and make sure you've got the infusions to minimize the charges you spend on them. Dual Wand wielding, in the end, is fun but not neccessary. Even tied to just Core feats, you can deliver 180 pts of touch attack dmg/round with an elemental orb wand using Maximize and Quicken. Adding in Twin instead of maximize means you can do 60d6, or avg 210 dmg. This can be accomplished by level 12 or 13, and even the most conservative interpretation of the rules allows it. 30d6 dmg/charge no save, no SR, is pretty sweet. ==Aelryinth
waper9 10-21-05, 08:29 AM	On the eternal wands, they're almost always better for the persistent spell feat, or some extended buffs. Extended buffs though, can be easily covered via an extra charge I feel though. Things you'll use everyday, like fly,swift, or haste,swift on yourself is just great to have. Not to mention, its an one time expenditure versus however many days your character may adventure.
catharz 10-21-05, 02:40 PM	On the eternal wands, they're almost always better for the persistent spell feat, or some extended buffs. Wha...? :eek: How are they even similar?
Taenia 10-21-05, 03:42 PM	According to the metamagic spell trigger ability of the artificer prayer beads are a spell trigger item that is a wondrous item. Since we can create any wondrous item we want could we create wondrous item of various spells that are spell trigger items like prayer beads? So instead of making a staff of shapechange (which i think requires a house rule) can we make a cloak of shapechange 1/day that is a spell trigger item and use metamagic infusion on it?
Elderich 10-22-05, 01:17 PM	eRaz0r; I wont debate this here. You have been in on every debate on the stafficer and the only conclusion was the rules are broke, not just open to debate. Do you remember the "Throwing down the gauntlet debate? But raise the thread if you want. I'll see you there. Heck create one on Staffs and we can have that fun again TOO! I said there was no rules for two staffs, and ya, i was making it up. Because, you know, like i said, there are no rules.