Artificer related questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificer related questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MiscDebris
02-15-05, 07:05 PM Which is more effecient, several wands, or a single staff? I'm talking as far as the money, using, and both. I won't be having any of the wand boosting feats.

How can I get skill mastery for a 1 level dip? Exemplar requires too many skill points in diplomacy for my artificer to take.

What is the lowest caster level that can be found for Leomund's Secret Chest? I can only see wiz9. Anything lower?

Tinker Gnome Artificer 2

MiscDebris
Caelic
02-15-05, 07:31 PM Once you can get it, the staff is the better bet in just about every way. Wands are your mainstay through the low and mid levels, until you hit level 12. Even after that, they remain a good choice for utility spells which aren't terribly level dependent.

I believe Exemplar 1 is the only 1 level dip that nets skill mastery. Leomund's...hrm. The only way I could see would be to muck around with Sublime Chord, and I have no idea how you'd determine the caster level in that case. It could, technically, be as low as 2, if a Sublime Chord went out of his way to suck (Sublime Chord 1, added to 1 level in another arcane casting class.)

If you try to pull this, though, I will have no sympathy when your DM makes you do the Walk of a Thousand d4's.
FatherNature
02-15-05, 07:48 PM Exemplar?
source please.
MiscDebris
02-15-05, 07:49 PM Well, I don't need that much of a drop in Leomunds. I just don't want to be carrying the growing number of things around as a small str 10 critter til 7th. I suppose the warforged could play packmule. I just want my Haversack/Belt of Many Pockets/Gnome Workman's Leather of Magical Pouches so as to never worry about weight again.

Sublime Chord 1 needs CL 5, so CL 6 is lowest. I wasn't looking for THAT much of a drop. Still, an artificer can do that at 4rd (needs craft wonderous). Nothing like scribing 5th level scrolls at level 4, though.

MiscDebris
Eyeless Blond
02-15-05, 07:50 PM Not getting any wand-related feats? I presume by this you mean stuff like Dual Wand Wield and the like, and not metamagic feats. Artificers are the reigning kings of metamagic, with their metamagic spell trigger and metamagic spell completion abilities, and even better the metamagic item infusion, that an artificer without metamagic feats is like a wizard without a spellbook, or a cleric without a divine focus. Pick up as many as you can get your grubby little paws on, in particular Quicken, Energy Substitution/Admixture(acid or sonic), and Twin Spell. Those four alone can let you do some insane things with wand damage as early as level 7.

And you definately want wands over staffs, for low level spells. Wands are generally more cost-effective than staves, and are smaller, allowing you to store several in a quiver (sixty in an Efficient Quiver). Wands are the mainstay of a mid-level artificer, and you should have at least one for each spell that you plan on using in combat. Staves are only for higher-level spells and thus higher-level artificers. For those it's more cost-efficient to have only one spell in a staff at a time, and to take advantage of the cost-reduction ability to have a high-level spell take up two charges. After all, you'll be using many more charges on the staff from Metamagic Spell Trigger than you will from actually casting the spell, so it's good to make each charge cost less.

As for one-level dips and the like IMO you're better off just sticking with artificer. Artificers *do* get Skill Mastery eventually, and in the meantime it's not like it's all that difficult to hit a wand activation check almost every time if you work a little at it. And I don't think anyone has Leomond's Secret Chest any lower than a wizard, so you're probably stuck waiting until level 7 to make your bags of holding and efficient quivers and the like.
MiscDebris
02-15-05, 08:09 PM Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer.

For effeciency, I'm thinking something like bulls strength, cats grace, etc all in 1 staff, or 6 wands. As I see it, the staff would be more expensive, but I'd have to pull a wand and have no move actions for 6 rounds.

My artificer is a buffer followed by battlefield control, so damage is pretty low priority. Quicken, Extended, and Persistant are definately on the list, and I'm pondering Reach, Widen, and Repeat. Also to be included is Craft Contingent. Beyond that, I've not thought much about.

I'm also the party lock picker/searcher/trap disabler (hopefully not springer), and that's what I wanted skill mastery in. I've a 20 INT currently, so I'm doing pretty well in that respect anyway.
Eyeless Blond
02-15-05, 11:54 PM Eh, the stat-up spells aren't worth the time it takes to cast them anymore; the only reason they exist now is as prereqs for the stat-up items, and that's about it. You're better off picking weird buff spells that noone else has, like Bless Weapon (Paladin), or Bligness (Bard). At the levels you'll be making your own custom staves, it's definately not worth it to be making a staff of Bull's Strength anyway, as everyone who'd need it would already have the item.
MiscDebris
02-16-05, 01:00 AM Eh, the stat-up spells aren't worth the time it takes to cast them anymore; the only reason they exist now is as prereqs for the stat-up items, and that's about it. You're better off picking weird buff spells that noone else has, like Bless Weapon (Paladin), or Bligness (Bard). At the levels you'll be making your own custom staves, it's definately not worth it to be making a staff of Bull's Strength anyway, as everyone who'd need it would already have the item.

That's just an example. Yes, I will be making these items, though I doubt I'll be making them for expendible minions. Cat's grace is plenty good enough to send your filcher out on a mission. If it gets caught and destroyed, you're out a filcher and a charge. With the gloves, it's alot more expensive.

Specific selections aside, Is it more cost effecient to use a staff with several spells in it, or several wands? Is it more combat effecient?
Caelic
02-16-05, 03:21 PM How d'you figure? Sublime Chord requires that you be able to cast third-level spells, but the CL for Sublime Chord is figured by taking your SC level and adding it to the level of another arcane class.

If you had a one-level dip into a second arcane class, your starting CL for Sublime Chord could, conceivably, be 2. Nobody would ever DO it, but it's possible.
MiscDebris
02-16-05, 03:34 PM How d'you figure? Sublime Chord requires that you be able to cast third-level spells, but the CL for Sublime Chord is figured by taking your SC level and adding it to the level of another arcane class.

If you had a one-level dip into a second arcane class, your starting CL for Sublime Chord could, conceivably, be 2. Nobody would ever DO it, but it's possible.

Ugh. Don't mind me. Apparently I couldn't do math when I posted that. Fixing it above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MiscDebris 02-15-05, 07:05 PM	Which is more effecient, several wands, or a single staff? I'm talking as far as the money, using, and both. I won't be having any of the wand boosting feats. How can I get skill mastery for a 1 level dip? Exemplar requires too many skill points in diplomacy for my artificer to take. What is the lowest caster level that can be found for Leomund's Secret Chest? I can only see wiz9. Anything lower? Tinker Gnome Artificer 2 MiscDebris
Caelic 02-15-05, 07:31 PM	Once you can get it, the staff is the better bet in just about every way. Wands are your mainstay through the low and mid levels, until you hit level 12. Even after that, they remain a good choice for utility spells which aren't terribly level dependent. I believe Exemplar 1 is the only 1 level dip that nets skill mastery. Leomund's...hrm. The only way I could see would be to muck around with Sublime Chord, and I have no idea how you'd determine the caster level in that case. It could, technically, be as low as 2, if a Sublime Chord went out of his way to suck (Sublime Chord 1, added to 1 level in another arcane casting class.) If you try to pull this, though, I will have no sympathy when your DM makes you do the Walk of a Thousand d4's.
FatherNature 02-15-05, 07:48 PM	Exemplar? source please.
MiscDebris 02-15-05, 07:49 PM	Well, I don't need that much of a drop in Leomunds. I just don't want to be carrying the growing number of things around as a small str 10 critter til 7th. I suppose the warforged could play packmule. I just want my Haversack/Belt of Many Pockets/Gnome Workman's Leather of Magical Pouches so as to never worry about weight again. Sublime Chord 1 needs CL 5, so CL 6 is lowest. I wasn't looking for THAT much of a drop. Still, an artificer can do that at 4rd (needs craft wonderous). Nothing like scribing 5th level scrolls at level 4, though. MiscDebris
Eyeless Blond 02-15-05, 07:50 PM	Not getting any wand-related feats? I presume by this you mean stuff like Dual Wand Wield and the like, and not metamagic feats. Artificers are the reigning kings of metamagic, with their metamagic spell trigger and metamagic spell completion abilities, and even better the metamagic item infusion, that an artificer without metamagic feats is like a wizard without a spellbook, or a cleric without a divine focus. Pick up as many as you can get your grubby little paws on, in particular Quicken, Energy Substitution/Admixture(acid or sonic), and Twin Spell. Those four alone can let you do some insane things with wand damage as early as level 7. And you definately want wands over staffs, for low level spells. Wands are generally more cost-effective than staves, and are smaller, allowing you to store several in a quiver (sixty in an Efficient Quiver). Wands are the mainstay of a mid-level artificer, and you should have at least one for each spell that you plan on using in combat. Staves are only for higher-level spells and thus higher-level artificers. For those it's more cost-efficient to have only one spell in a staff at a time, and to take advantage of the cost-reduction ability to have a high-level spell take up two charges. After all, you'll be using many more charges on the staff from Metamagic Spell Trigger than you will from actually casting the spell, so it's good to make each charge cost less. As for one-level dips and the like IMO you're better off just sticking with artificer. Artificers do get Skill Mastery eventually, and in the meantime it's not like it's all that difficult to hit a wand activation check almost every time if you work a little at it. And I don't think anyone has Leomond's Secret Chest any lower than a wizard, so you're probably stuck waiting until level 7 to make your bags of holding and efficient quivers and the like.
MiscDebris 02-15-05, 08:09 PM	Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer. For effeciency, I'm thinking something like bulls strength, cats grace, etc all in 1 staff, or 6 wands. As I see it, the staff would be more expensive, but I'd have to pull a wand and have no move actions for 6 rounds. My artificer is a buffer followed by battlefield control, so damage is pretty low priority. Quicken, Extended, and Persistant are definately on the list, and I'm pondering Reach, Widen, and Repeat. Also to be included is Craft Contingent. Beyond that, I've not thought much about. I'm also the party lock picker/searcher/trap disabler (hopefully not springer), and that's what I wanted skill mastery in. I've a 20 INT currently, so I'm doing pretty well in that respect anyway.
Eyeless Blond 02-15-05, 11:54 PM	Eh, the stat-up spells aren't worth the time it takes to cast them anymore; the only reason they exist now is as prereqs for the stat-up items, and that's about it. You're better off picking weird buff spells that noone else has, like Bless Weapon (Paladin), or Bligness (Bard). At the levels you'll be making your own custom staves, it's definately not worth it to be making a staff of Bull's Strength anyway, as everyone who'd need it would already have the item.
MiscDebris 02-16-05, 01:00 AM	Eh, the stat-up spells aren't worth the time it takes to cast them anymore; the only reason they exist now is as prereqs for the stat-up items, and that's about it. You're better off picking weird buff spells that noone else has, like Bless Weapon (Paladin), or Bligness (Bard). At the levels you'll be making your own custom staves, it's definately not worth it to be making a staff of Bull's Strength anyway, as everyone who'd need it would already have the item. That's just an example. Yes, I will be making these items, though I doubt I'll be making them for expendible minions. Cat's grace is plenty good enough to send your filcher out on a mission. If it gets caught and destroyed, you're out a filcher and a charge. With the gloves, it's alot more expensive. Specific selections aside, Is it more cost effecient to use a staff with several spells in it, or several wands? Is it more combat effecient?
Caelic 02-16-05, 03:21 PM	How d'you figure? Sublime Chord requires that you be able to cast third-level spells, but the CL for Sublime Chord is figured by taking your SC level and adding it to the level of another arcane class. If you had a one-level dip into a second arcane class, your starting CL for Sublime Chord could, conceivably, be 2. Nobody would ever DO it, but it's possible.
MiscDebris 02-16-05, 03:34 PM	How d'you figure? Sublime Chord requires that you be able to cast third-level spells, but the CL for Sublime Chord is figured by taking your SC level and adding it to the level of another arcane class. If you had a one-level dip into a second arcane class, your starting CL for Sublime Chord could, conceivably, be 2. Nobody would ever DO it, but it's possible. Ugh. Don't mind me. Apparently I couldn't do math when I posted that. Fixing it above.