Ascetic Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ascetic Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melil13
10-26-06, 10:37 PM The idea of haveing a rogue with a monks unarmed attack is a cool idea. I am not so great at builds and would like to hear some suggestions. So far i figure 1 level monk with stunning fist or w/e. Pretty much after that i want to stay rogue getting the high sneak attack and skill points.
Feats:
1st Ascetic Rogue Dodge
3rd Moblity
6th Spring attack
9th Weapon finesse
10th (sacrafice special ability for Twf)
12 Improved TWF
13 (sacrfice for Greater Twf)
15 TwD
(Save the last 2 specail abilities for improved evasion and defensive roll)
18 Improved two weapon defence
... i know Spring attack dosn't work with TWF but it gives me the option of standing to fight and running away
as for skill i would like to stick with the basic rogue skills.
my only problem is now i don't get a magical type weapon at all and since i would be going TWF that would be imporant
Hanniball
10-27-06, 04:39 AM What sources are you allowed access to (other than the PHB and CV)?

Ascetic Rogue requires IUS and Sneak Attack, so I'm not sure how you're taking it with Monk 1...

Two Weapon Defense doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons, so you'll have to weild special Monk weapons.

Either way...just my 2 cp
demonsinmyhead
10-27-06, 08:39 AM You will probably want to start with rogue. Skill points-you would be robbing yourself if you begin as a monk...
Melil13
10-27-06, 03:29 PM What sources are you allowed access to (other than the PHB and CV)?

Ascetic Rogue requires IUS and Sneak Attack, so I'm not sure how you're taking it with Monk 1...

Two Weapon Defense doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons, so you'll have to weild special Monk weapons.

Either way...just my 2 cp
I see what you mean i would have to wait a level as a monk ... but i didn't mention that cuz in the game i am thinking about useing it i am starting level 4.
As what you said for two weapon defence i confess i wasn't looking at the feat i kind of made this off the top of my head ... so i really would drop that. opening those slots up for suggestions

and as for demonsinmyhead ... good point :)

anyone got any ideas as to how to fix the fact that with two weapon fighting you really need the bonuses from magic weapons .... +5 to attack rolls is hard to give up
Caelic
10-27-06, 06:06 PM It also makes sense to snag that second level of Monk, for the extra bonus feat. Hey, free Combat Reflexes.
Hanniball
10-27-06, 07:21 PM It also makes sense to snag that second level of Monk, for the extra bonus feat

Not to mention +1 to BAB and all saves...

As what you said for two weapon defence i confess i wasn't looking at the feat i kind of made this off the top of my head ... so i really would drop that. opening those slots up for suggestions

I'd also consider choosing between Spring Attack and TWF. You've realized the lack of synergy already and focusing on one or the other will streamline the build a bit.

A TWF build suggestion:

Mnk 2/Rog 3/Assassin 3/Rog +12
Feats: IUS (monk 1), Stunning Attack (monk 1), TWF (1), Combat Reflexes (monk 2) Weapon Finesse (3), Ascetic Rogue (6), Improved TWF (9), Improved Natural Attack (12), Dodge (15), Mobility (rog 13), Elusive Target (18)

+14 BAB, saves 9/15/9, +10D6 sneak attack, 3D8 unarmed damage, 2nd level Assassin spells (Wraithstrike), Death Attack
Melil13
10-27-06, 10:29 PM Not to mention +1 to BAB and all saves...

I'd also consider choosing between Spring Attack and TWF. You've realized the lack of synergy already and focusing on one or the other will streamline the build a bit.

A TWF build suggestion:

Mnk 2/Rog 3/Assassin 3/Rog +12
Feats: IUS (monk 1), Stunning Attack (monk 1), TWF (1), Combat Reflexes (monk 2) Weapon Finesse (3), Ascetic Rogue (6), Improved TWF (9), Improved Natural Attack (12), Dodge (15), Mobility (rog 13), Elusive Target (18)

+14 BAB, saves 9/15/9, +10D6 sneak attack, 3D8 unarmed damage, 2nd level Assassin spells (Wraithstrike), Death Attack

I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin .... which i did want :( er and what book is elusive target from?
FriendlyFrog
10-28-06, 04:34 AM er and what book is elusive target from?
Complete Warrior.

If you can use Heroes of battle, Dread commando might be a good choice for you. It's a five level long PrC that has full BAB, gives you 3d6 sudden strike, ability to move silently at your full speed without a penalty, and bonuses to your whole teams initiative checks. It's also pretty easy for you to qualify for, requiring only +5 BAB, 8 ranks in Hide and Move silently, and Dodge and Mobility.

Monk 3/Rogue 12/Dread commando 5 would have a BAB 16, good skills, 6d6 sneak attack + 3d6 sudden strike and full unarmed strike damage with a Monk's belt.
demonsinmyhead
10-28-06, 09:35 AM I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin .... which i did want :( er and what book is elusive target from?
ok....I hate paladins....so I say go assassin.....I'm not quite sure if this would work but if you can con your DM into letting it fly go for it---use magic device....you can emulate an alignment....perhaps that would let you get around detect evil? I don't think it will but it's sure worth a shot...IN THE KIDNEYS!!!
Hanniball
10-29-06, 12:32 AM I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin ....

Assassin's do get Undetectable Alignment. Until then, just stay out of line of effect when they're going to Detect Evil.
Vikjunk
10-29-06, 01:15 AM Assassin's do get Undetectable Alignment. Until then, just stay out of line of effect when they're going to Detect Evil.
Ring of Mind Shielding from Dungeon Master's Guide should also take care of the problem if you don't want to keep casting Undetectable Alignment and not weary about a ill timed Dispel Magic and Detect Evil. I know that it sucks having to waste a ring slot for it but at least it is fairly cheap at 8,000 gp and you might be able to talk the DM into letting you get it for cheaper from your assassins guild since it's one of the only ways of making the game playable for other players that want to have a curtain type of character without a player forcing a chooses on other players.

It’s one of the reasons I despise the Paladin class, since you it unfair for one player to force other players to play a curtain way. Also kills the Fantasy arc type of having a champion of light fight along side a champion of darkness to defeat a greater evil.
Rokku
10-29-06, 01:18 AM Keep in mind, that just because your alignment is Evil, no DM worth his salt should let them just up and kill you unless they catch you actually DOING evil.
Melil13
10-29-06, 03:40 PM :) well by the time i would be takeing any levels in assassin it would be after 20 anyways ... and it seems that this game may actually make it that long so i will have to talk to my dm
Caelic
10-30-06, 04:32 PM How exactly is it "forcing other players?" If I play a Dwarf who hates Orcs, am I "forcing other players" not to play Half-Orcs?

In-character actions have in-character consequences. If you choose to play an evil character, and my Paladin catches you performing evil actions, then there will be consequences. Having to accept the consequences of your choices hardly equates to my 'forcing you' to play a certain alignment.

Play what you like; just don't expect me to alter MY character's reactions to accomodate your choice.
Hanniball
10-30-06, 05:55 PM Play what you like; just don't expect me to alter MY character's reactions to accomodate your choice.

I fully agree. Hell, half the fun is formulating ways to conceal any provocative actions from those who would react hostilely. If you're caught in the act, you should expect and accept any repercussions.
Vikjunk
10-30-06, 06:03 PM Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
That little rule makes it so that a Paladin can't adventure with a character that they know is evil and with them having Detect Evil at will at 1st level they are going to know about, unless you start off at higher levels and pick up a Ring of Mind Shielding or if you have a kind DM that will give you it for free at 1st level so you can play the type of character you want.

And it is much worse then most people make it out to be, since by the rules a Paladin can’t associate with a Rouge that tends to use lies and trickery to do things since it offends a Paladin’s moral code. Problem is that if you have a Paladin in your party they forces players to do thing only a curtain way because of the rules of a Paladin and if they don’t the Paladin is either forced to leave the party or lose their powers.
Melil13
10-30-06, 06:14 PM Yea now times that by two ... and that is my problem lol though i have to say i am more of the chaotic good chaotic neutral ... and deep down inside i can pull of a nuetral evil ... i just have to find a way to change my alignment till i decide to pull off a neutral evil character for assassin
Caelic
10-30-06, 07:00 PM Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin?

For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play?

Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves.

I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you.
ninjarabbit
10-30-06, 07:17 PM Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin?

For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play?

Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves.

I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you.

I agree 100%
Vikjunk
10-30-06, 07:57 PM Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin?

For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play?

Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves.

I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you.
I'm totally fine with something like that since it would allow me some room to play the way I want but with a Paladin it doesn't just cut off ways of play it cleaves since there is no room for negation with them. They can only play one way or loss their powers.

And if I was dumb enough to play a ruthless assassin that would be willing to take up any contract for the right amount of money that the other players feared that I might take up a contract on them, I deserve other players turning on him. But I could play a character that was a Lawful Evil Assassin that only will take up contracts from my characters rulers of his kingdom it is less likely that other players would turn on him unless they some how became enemies of my character’s kingdom. And yes there is likely be some player conflict because of my chose in character but it doesn’t make it impossible to play the type of character I want. It might not be exactly the character I want to play but it can get close.

My point with the Paladin is it cuts off so many was of play for other players it isn’t funny. No Necromancers, Con Artists, Rebels, Spellcasters that likes to use Charm and Dominate type spells, and other types that other good aligned members of the party might ally with since it would go against Paladin’s Moral Code.

Edit: If anything if you play a Paladin it is you that is expecting that other players will play the way you want since if they don't play the way you want them to you will lose your powers if you want to keep playing. And if the other players don't give in, too often the player that wanted to play the Paladin ends up complaining since other players screwed over his character.
Melil13
11-01-06, 10:22 AM ok ... this is all good and all but we have gotten away from my main topic ... so what are some other ways of optimizing basically a rogue with fists ... besides takeing the feats for to get it ;)
jameswilliamogle
11-01-06, 10:55 AM The Dread Commando idea is nice.

Monk 6 / Rogue 5 / Shou Disciple 5 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 would be cool too (BAB 16, lots of neat abilities).
Acsetic Rogue, WF: Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative, Dodge are required, but are all good feats for this build anyways.

Regardless of what you build, take one of the alternatives to Evasion since double Evasion doesn't really help (it does if you get level drained, but thats it).
FruitOfTheShroom
11-01-06, 10:57 AM I don't know how well optimized it was, but I played a half-ogre monk/rogue.

His specialty was tripping his enemies (made better by huge reach, feats to up his trip skill, and large strength) and then sneak attacking them when they were down. If you ahve ever played Tekken 5, picture something like Marduk.

I have always liked the idea of a monk/rogue. I think the low armor thing meshes very well, as well as the "skilled warrior" style. Tripping and sneak attack just go perfectly well together, sicne a tripped opponent is SA-able.
jameswilliamogle
11-01-06, 11:01 AM Tripping and sneak attack just go perfectly well together, sicne a tripped opponent is SA-able.I don't know about perfect: a Prone opponent isn't considered flat-footed.
Dragon3
11-01-06, 12:46 PM If you take Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle, you can get 2d6 unarmed if you don't take monk else +4 to monk and note it doesnt seem to be based on size so take it for your short folks such as halflings. Prereqs is improved unarmed strike but it's an alternative to taking monk esp if you're not lawful.
Person_Man
11-01-06, 01:21 PM You may want to consider the Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) from RotD. The Frightful Attack feature is a huge help, since Fear effects stack and your BAB is going to be sub-par. And unlike most Monk PrC, its levels stack with Monk Flurry and Speed (not the less useful unarmed damage).

Another option is the UA Fighter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighter) varient. Rogue Sneak Attack progression instead of bonus feats. Full BAB + Sneak Attack is quite potent.

So, Rogue 1/Monk 2/Fighter Varient X would be good. You could then go into your favorite PrC.

Also note that Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6) gets Armored Ease, which allows them to ignore up to 4 points of Armor Check Penalty. This lets you wear Mithral full plate with 0 armor check penalty, or a mundane (or adamantine) breatplate. This makes it sub-optimal for a Monk, who must be unarmored to use his Flurry and Speed Bonus. So if you're going to go into Dread Commando, I would suggest Rogue 1/Fighter Varient 5/Dread Commando 5, for +10 BAB, excellent hit points, 4d6 Sneak Attack + 3d6 Sudden Strike, plenty of Skill points, full armor, and a +5 team Initiative bonus. Or you can sacrifice +3 AC (switch from Mithril full plate to a Mithril breast plate) and a few hit points, and pick up Evasion (which requires light armor, thus the mithril breastplate) and more Skill points with Rogue 3/Fighter Varient 3/Dread Commando 5.
DaveTheMagicWeasel
11-01-06, 01:43 PM I was working on a similar idea a while back, and this is what I came up with (not the most uber of builds, but I reckon it would be playable through most levels and has a fair few different options).

Rogue 13 / Monk 3 / Fighter 4

Rogue 1 TWF, Power Attack (B)
Rogue 2
Monk 1 Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Ascetic Rogue
Rogue 3
Monk 2 Fiery Fists (B)
Monk 3 Extra Stunning
Rogue 4
Fighter 1 Close-Quarters Fighting (B)
Fighter 2 Improved TWF (B), Acrobatic Strike
Fighter 3
Fighter 4 Improved Critical (unarmed strike) (B)*
Rogue 5 Telling Blow
Rogue 6
Rogue 7
Rogue 8 Freezing the Lifesblood
Rogue 9
Rogue 10 Special Ability (Crippling Strike)
Rogue 11 Roundabout Kick
Rogue 12
Rogue 13 Special Ability (Bonus Feat [Overwhelming Assault])

* If you can use the Amulet in Savage Species so as to get Impact on your fists then I'd swap out Imp Crit for Superior Unarmed Strike.

Which gets you:

BAB +15, Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +8
Evasion (twice, so a generous DM might let you get Improved Evasion)
Still Mind
Sneak Attack +7d6
Unarmed attacks as 16th level monk
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Fast Movement +10 ft.

The main problem with a build like this (imho) is the small number of damage each attack will be doing. This tries to get round that at early levels through Fiery Fists, by using Acrobatic Strike + Power Attack when on the move, or at late levels by using Overwhelming Assault + Power Attack.

Admittedly, if you meet someone whose immune to stunning, criticals and fire you won't be at your best, but there's always UMD and good ole fashioned Power Attack for those occasions.

Plus, whenever you successfully stun/paralyze someone, they will be triggering the Overwhelming Assault bonuses. Its just a shame I can't think of a way of getting it in earlier.
Melil13
11-01-06, 07:19 PM :) glad to see i am not the only one looking into this ... also good to see someone put alittle more effort then me into building one. i got to look this over but i will keep this build in mind.
FruitOfTheShroom
11-01-06, 10:27 PM I don't know about perfect: a Prone opponent isn't considered flat-footed.

Should have clarified: prone opponents are easier to hit, making SA hits easier, especially using flurry and TWF.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melil13 10-26-06, 10:37 PM	The idea of haveing a rogue with a monks unarmed attack is a cool idea. I am not so great at builds and would like to hear some suggestions. So far i figure 1 level monk with stunning fist or w/e. Pretty much after that i want to stay rogue getting the high sneak attack and skill points. Feats: 1st Ascetic Rogue Dodge 3rd Moblity 6th Spring attack 9th Weapon finesse 10th (sacrafice special ability for Twf) 12 Improved TWF 13 (sacrfice for Greater Twf) 15 TwD (Save the last 2 specail abilities for improved evasion and defensive roll) 18 Improved two weapon defence ... i know Spring attack dosn't work with TWF but it gives me the option of standing to fight and running away as for skill i would like to stick with the basic rogue skills. my only problem is now i don't get a magical type weapon at all and since i would be going TWF that would be imporant
Hanniball 10-27-06, 04:39 AM	What sources are you allowed access to (other than the PHB and CV)? Ascetic Rogue requires IUS and Sneak Attack, so I'm not sure how you're taking it with Monk 1... Two Weapon Defense doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons, so you'll have to weild special Monk weapons. Either way...just my 2 cp
demonsinmyhead 10-27-06, 08:39 AM	You will probably want to start with rogue. Skill points-you would be robbing yourself if you begin as a monk...
Melil13 10-27-06, 03:29 PM	What sources are you allowed access to (other than the PHB and CV)? Ascetic Rogue requires IUS and Sneak Attack, so I'm not sure how you're taking it with Monk 1... Two Weapon Defense doesn't work with Unarmed Strikes or Natural Weapons, so you'll have to weild special Monk weapons. Either way...just my 2 cp I see what you mean i would have to wait a level as a monk ... but i didn't mention that cuz in the game i am thinking about useing it i am starting level 4. As what you said for two weapon defence i confess i wasn't looking at the feat i kind of made this off the top of my head ... so i really would drop that. opening those slots up for suggestions and as for demonsinmyhead ... good point :) anyone got any ideas as to how to fix the fact that with two weapon fighting you really need the bonuses from magic weapons .... +5 to attack rolls is hard to give up
Caelic 10-27-06, 06:06 PM	It also makes sense to snag that second level of Monk, for the extra bonus feat. Hey, free Combat Reflexes.
Hanniball 10-27-06, 07:21 PM	It also makes sense to snag that second level of Monk, for the extra bonus feat Not to mention +1 to BAB and all saves... As what you said for two weapon defence i confess i wasn't looking at the feat i kind of made this off the top of my head ... so i really would drop that. opening those slots up for suggestions I'd also consider choosing between Spring Attack and TWF. You've realized the lack of synergy already and focusing on one or the other will streamline the build a bit. A TWF build suggestion: Mnk 2/Rog 3/Assassin 3/Rog +12 Feats: IUS (monk 1), Stunning Attack (monk 1), TWF (1), Combat Reflexes (monk 2) Weapon Finesse (3), Ascetic Rogue (6), Improved TWF (9), Improved Natural Attack (12), Dodge (15), Mobility (rog 13), Elusive Target (18) +14 BAB, saves 9/15/9, +10D6 sneak attack, 3D8 unarmed damage, 2nd level Assassin spells (Wraithstrike), Death Attack
Melil13 10-27-06, 10:29 PM	Not to mention +1 to BAB and all saves... I'd also consider choosing between Spring Attack and TWF. You've realized the lack of synergy already and focusing on one or the other will streamline the build a bit. A TWF build suggestion: Mnk 2/Rog 3/Assassin 3/Rog +12 Feats: IUS (monk 1), Stunning Attack (monk 1), TWF (1), Combat Reflexes (monk 2) Weapon Finesse (3), Ascetic Rogue (6), Improved TWF (9), Improved Natural Attack (12), Dodge (15), Mobility (rog 13), Elusive Target (18) +14 BAB, saves 9/15/9, +10D6 sneak attack, 3D8 unarmed damage, 2nd level Assassin spells (Wraithstrike), Death Attack I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin .... which i did want :( er and what book is elusive target from?
FriendlyFrog 10-28-06, 04:34 AM	er and what book is elusive target from? Complete Warrior. If you can use Heroes of battle, Dread commando might be a good choice for you. It's a five level long PrC that has full BAB, gives you 3d6 sudden strike, ability to move silently at your full speed without a penalty, and bonuses to your whole teams initiative checks. It's also pretty easy for you to qualify for, requiring only +5 BAB, 8 ranks in Hide and Move silently, and Dodge and Mobility. Monk 3/Rogue 12/Dread commando 5 would have a BAB 16, good skills, 6d6 sneak attack + 3d6 sudden strike and full unarmed strike damage with a Monk's belt.
demonsinmyhead 10-28-06, 09:35 AM	I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin .... which i did want :( er and what book is elusive target from? ok....I hate paladins....so I say go assassin.....I'm not quite sure if this would work but if you can con your DM into letting it fly go for it---use magic device....you can emulate an alignment....perhaps that would let you get around detect evil? I don't think it will but it's sure worth a shot...IN THE KIDNEYS!!!
Hanniball 10-29-06, 12:32 AM	I would take assassin levels but the problem is we have two paladins in our party ... don't ask why we just ... do. So .... not such a good idea to be an assassin .... Assassin's do get Undetectable Alignment. Until then, just stay out of line of effect when they're going to Detect Evil.
Vikjunk 10-29-06, 01:15 AM	Assassin's do get Undetectable Alignment. Until then, just stay out of line of effect when they're going to Detect Evil. Ring of Mind Shielding from Dungeon Master's Guide should also take care of the problem if you don't want to keep casting Undetectable Alignment and not weary about a ill timed Dispel Magic and Detect Evil. I know that it sucks having to waste a ring slot for it but at least it is fairly cheap at 8,000 gp and you might be able to talk the DM into letting you get it for cheaper from your assassins guild since it's one of the only ways of making the game playable for other players that want to have a curtain type of character without a player forcing a chooses on other players. It’s one of the reasons I despise the Paladin class, since you it unfair for one player to force other players to play a curtain way. Also kills the Fantasy arc type of having a champion of light fight along side a champion of darkness to defeat a greater evil.
Rokku 10-29-06, 01:18 AM	Keep in mind, that just because your alignment is Evil, no DM worth his salt should let them just up and kill you unless they catch you actually DOING evil.
Melil13 10-29-06, 03:40 PM	:) well by the time i would be takeing any levels in assassin it would be after 20 anyways ... and it seems that this game may actually make it that long so i will have to talk to my dm
Caelic 10-30-06, 04:32 PM	How exactly is it "forcing other players?" If I play a Dwarf who hates Orcs, am I "forcing other players" not to play Half-Orcs? In-character actions have in-character consequences. If you choose to play an evil character, and my Paladin catches you performing evil actions, then there will be consequences. Having to accept the consequences of your choices hardly equates to my 'forcing you' to play a certain alignment. Play what you like; just don't expect me to alter MY character's reactions to accomodate your choice.
Hanniball 10-30-06, 05:55 PM	Play what you like; just don't expect me to alter MY character's reactions to accomodate your choice. I fully agree. Hell, half the fun is formulating ways to conceal any provocative actions from those who would react hostilely. If you're caught in the act, you should expect and accept any repercussions.
Vikjunk 10-30-06, 06:03 PM	Associates While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good. That little rule makes it so that a Paladin can't adventure with a character that they know is evil and with them having Detect Evil at will at 1st level they are going to know about, unless you start off at higher levels and pick up a Ring of Mind Shielding or if you have a kind DM that will give you it for free at 1st level so you can play the type of character you want. And it is much worse then most people make it out to be, since by the rules a Paladin can’t associate with a Rouge that tends to use lies and trickery to do things since it offends a Paladin’s moral code. Problem is that if you have a Paladin in your party they forces players to do thing only a curtain way because of the rules of a Paladin and if they don’t the Paladin is either forced to leave the party or lose their powers.
Melil13 10-30-06, 06:14 PM	Yea now times that by two ... and that is my problem lol though i have to say i am more of the chaotic good chaotic neutral ... and deep down inside i can pull of a nuetral evil ... i just have to find a way to change my alignment till i decide to pull off a neutral evil character for assassin
Caelic 10-30-06, 07:00 PM	Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin? For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play? Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves. I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you.
ninjarabbit 10-30-06, 07:17 PM	Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin? For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play? Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves. I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you. I agree 100%
Vikjunk 10-30-06, 07:57 PM	Oh, i'm quite aware of the rules. My question is: why does YOUR desire to play an evil character without consequences trump MY desire to play a Paladin? For that matter, what if I'm not playing a Paladin, but AM playing, say, a Lawful Good warrior? Would you expect me to accept your Chaotic Evil assassin as a boon companion because it's what you want to play? Heck, if I'm playing an evil character and I figure out that there's an assassin in the party, I may well arrange for that assassin to have an accident. After all, there's no way I can know that he won't take out a contract on ME...and as an evil character myself, I know that there's not necessarily honor among thieves. I stand by my position: play what you want to play, but don't expect the other players to bend their characters to accomodate you. I'm totally fine with something like that since it would allow me some room to play the way I want but with a Paladin it doesn't just cut off ways of play it cleaves since there is no room for negation with them. They can only play one way or loss their powers. And if I was dumb enough to play a ruthless assassin that would be willing to take up any contract for the right amount of money that the other players feared that I might take up a contract on them, I deserve other players turning on him. But I could play a character that was a Lawful Evil Assassin that only will take up contracts from my characters rulers of his kingdom it is less likely that other players would turn on him unless they some how became enemies of my character’s kingdom. And yes there is likely be some player conflict because of my chose in character but it doesn’t make it impossible to play the type of character I want. It might not be exactly the character I want to play but it can get close. My point with the Paladin is it cuts off so many was of play for other players it isn’t funny. No Necromancers, Con Artists, Rebels, Spellcasters that likes to use Charm and Dominate type spells, and other types that other good aligned members of the party might ally with since it would go against Paladin’s Moral Code. Edit: If anything if you play a Paladin it is you that is expecting that other players will play the way you want since if they don't play the way you want them to you will lose your powers if you want to keep playing. And if the other players don't give in, too often the player that wanted to play the Paladin ends up complaining since other players screwed over his character.
Melil13 11-01-06, 10:22 AM	ok ... this is all good and all but we have gotten away from my main topic ... so what are some other ways of optimizing basically a rogue with fists ... besides takeing the feats for to get it ;)
jameswilliamogle 11-01-06, 10:55 AM	The Dread Commando idea is nice. Monk 6 / Rogue 5 / Shou Disciple 5 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 would be cool too (BAB 16, lots of neat abilities). Acsetic Rogue, WF: Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative, Dodge are required, but are all good feats for this build anyways. Regardless of what you build, take one of the alternatives to Evasion since double Evasion doesn't really help (it does if you get level drained, but thats it).
FruitOfTheShroom 11-01-06, 10:57 AM	I don't know how well optimized it was, but I played a half-ogre monk/rogue. His specialty was tripping his enemies (made better by huge reach, feats to up his trip skill, and large strength) and then sneak attacking them when they were down. If you ahve ever played Tekken 5, picture something like Marduk. I have always liked the idea of a monk/rogue. I think the low armor thing meshes very well, as well as the "skilled warrior" style. Tripping and sneak attack just go perfectly well together, sicne a tripped opponent is SA-able.
jameswilliamogle 11-01-06, 11:01 AM	Tripping and sneak attack just go perfectly well together, sicne a tripped opponent is SA-able.I don't know about perfect: a Prone opponent isn't considered flat-footed.
Dragon3 11-01-06, 12:46 PM	If you take Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle, you can get 2d6 unarmed if you don't take monk else +4 to monk and note it doesnt seem to be based on size so take it for your short folks such as halflings. Prereqs is improved unarmed strike but it's an alternative to taking monk esp if you're not lawful.
Person_Man 11-01-06, 01:21 PM	You may want to consider the Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) from RotD. The Frightful Attack feature is a huge help, since Fear effects stack and your BAB is going to be sub-par. And unlike most Monk PrC, its levels stack with Monk Flurry and Speed (not the less useful unarmed damage). Another option is the UA Fighter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighter) varient. Rogue Sneak Attack progression instead of bonus feats. Full BAB + Sneak Attack is quite potent. So, Rogue 1/Monk 2/Fighter Varient X would be good. You could then go into your favorite PrC. Also note that Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6) gets Armored Ease, which allows them to ignore up to 4 points of Armor Check Penalty. This lets you wear Mithral full plate with 0 armor check penalty, or a mundane (or adamantine) breatplate. This makes it sub-optimal for a Monk, who must be unarmored to use his Flurry and Speed Bonus. So if you're going to go into Dread Commando, I would suggest Rogue 1/Fighter Varient 5/Dread Commando 5, for +10 BAB, excellent hit points, 4d6 Sneak Attack + 3d6 Sudden Strike, plenty of Skill points, full armor, and a +5 team Initiative bonus. Or you can sacrifice +3 AC (switch from Mithril full plate to a Mithril breast plate) and a few hit points, and pick up Evasion (which requires light armor, thus the mithril breastplate) and more Skill points with Rogue 3/Fighter Varient 3/Dread Commando 5.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 11-01-06, 01:43 PM	I was working on a similar idea a while back, and this is what I came up with (not the most uber of builds, but I reckon it would be playable through most levels and has a fair few different options). Rogue 13 / Monk 3 / Fighter 4 Rogue 1 TWF, Power Attack (B) Rogue 2 Monk 1 Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Ascetic Rogue Rogue 3 Monk 2 Fiery Fists (B) Monk 3 Extra Stunning Rogue 4 Fighter 1 Close-Quarters Fighting (B) Fighter 2 Improved TWF (B), Acrobatic Strike Fighter 3 Fighter 4 Improved Critical (unarmed strike) (B)* Rogue 5 Telling Blow Rogue 6 Rogue 7 Rogue 8 Freezing the Lifesblood Rogue 9 Rogue 10 Special Ability (Crippling Strike) Rogue 11 Roundabout Kick Rogue 12 Rogue 13 Special Ability (Bonus Feat [Overwhelming Assault]) * If you can use the Amulet in Savage Species so as to get Impact on your fists then I'd swap out Imp Crit for Superior Unarmed Strike. Which gets you: BAB +15, Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +8 Evasion (twice, so a generous DM might let you get Improved Evasion) Still Mind Sneak Attack +7d6 Unarmed attacks as 16th level monk Improved Uncanny Dodge Fast Movement +10 ft. The main problem with a build like this (imho) is the small number of damage each attack will be doing. This tries to get round that at early levels through Fiery Fists, by using Acrobatic Strike + Power Attack when on the move, or at late levels by using Overwhelming Assault + Power Attack. Admittedly, if you meet someone whose immune to stunning, criticals and fire you won't be at your best, but there's always UMD and good ole fashioned Power Attack for those occasions. Plus, whenever you successfully stun/paralyze someone, they will be triggering the Overwhelming Assault bonuses. Its just a shame I can't think of a way of getting it in earlier.
Melil13 11-01-06, 07:19 PM	:) glad to see i am not the only one looking into this ... also good to see someone put alittle more effort then me into building one. i got to look this over but i will keep this build in mind.
FruitOfTheShroom 11-01-06, 10:27 PM	I don't know about perfect: a Prone opponent isn't considered flat-footed. Should have clarified: prone opponents are easier to hit, making SA hits easier, especially using flurry and TWF.