Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 12:56 AM	Well, I believe the topic speaks for itself. I'm looking for the highest AC possible for a tank-like build...at level 3. To me, min/maxing is a science I've yet to master. I've come up with a mere 22 AC, using Shield Bashing and whatnot. Here's my build, anyone care to help? Boris, the Invincible Fighter, Level 3 Race: Human Allignment: Chaotic Neutral Str: 18 (+4) Dex:18 (+4) Con: 16 (+3) Int: 16 (+3) Wis: 16 (+3) Cha: 15 (+2) (Nice rolls, eh?) Feats: TWF(Spiked large shield and Short Sword) Two-Weapon Defense Improved Shield Bash Improved Buckler Defense Combat Expertise I'm pretty sure skills don't matter here... He's using a Chain Shirt, but that's only because he started as a ranger. I plan on switching to full plate. So anyway, with a BAB of +3 and a total attack bonus of +7, we're looking at: 22 AC(10 base, 4 Dex, 4 Chain Shirt, 2 Large Shield, 1 Buckler, 1 TWD) +5 on both the large shield and short sword. I think it's not bad for my first try, but I'm sure there's some stuff I'm missing. I own Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior, and Monster Manual, although my DM frowns upon templates such as half-celestial. So I'm avoiding those. Anyone? Pretty please?
snb1131 01-31-04, 12:59 AM	Take a level of monk...with your stats, you can add another +3 to AC (from your WIS). Monk1/Fighter2 You'd also get more skill points at first level if you do this as well.
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 01:06 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but Monks only get the Wisdom bonus to AC if they're unarmored. That's bad for Boris. Plus, I'm not lawful. I don't qualify.
snb1131 01-31-04, 01:08 AM	Didn't read that too carefully...LOL I's sleepy.
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 01:19 AM	Quick change to Full Plate. Boris, the Invincible Fighter, Level 3 Race: Human Allignment: Chaotic Neutral Str: 18 (+4) Dex:16 (+3) Con: 18 (+4) Int: 16 (+3) Wis: 16 (+3) Cha: 15 (+2) Feats: TWF(Spiked large shield and Short Sword) Two-Weapon Defense Improved Shield Bash Improved Buckler Defense Combat Expertise 23 AC(10 base, 1 Dex, 8 Full Plate, 2 Large Shield, 1 Buckler, 1 TWD) +5 on both the large shield and short sword. Let's just leave the fact that I have absurdly massive check penalties aside, okay? =P
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Thomeyis 23 AC(10 base, 1 Dex, 8 Full Plate, 2 Large Shield, 1 Buckler, 1 TWD) +5 on both the large shield and short sword. Both a buckler and a large shield grant shield bonuses to AC, and hence don't stack. Also, what do you mean by "+5 on both the large shield and short sword"?
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 01:35 AM	Both a buckler and a large shield grant shield bonuses to AC, and hence don't stack. Also, what do you mean by "+5 on both the large shield and short sword"? Aha. I shall use Dodge instead of a buckler. Unless there's a better feat I could use... The +5 I was referring to was the attack bonus. I guess that doesn't go with the AC topic, sorry.
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 01:38 AM	If you can use Oriental Adventures, there are a couple of weird armor add-ons in there that you could use. A Dastana and something I can't pronounce. Both add another +1 each to AC and stack with normal armor.
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 01:41 AM	Crap. I only have the 4 aforementioned books. So that's out of the question. Dodge seems like the most reasonable feat choice to replace Buckler Defense, no?
MegaPlex 01-31-04, 02:57 AM	If all you care about is AC: Full Plate (+8, Max Dex 1) Tower Shield (+4, -1 tohit, Max Dex 2) 10 + 8 (Plate) + 4 (Tower) + 1 (Dex) = 23 With Dodge Feat, your AC is 24 against one opponent.
Elmaster of Thay 01-31-04, 03:00 AM	Two weapon defense also grants a shield bonus. It won't stack with shields
JTalbain 01-31-04, 04:27 AM	Given that at third level you have 2700 gold, its possible to have low level magical defensive equipment. Try +1 Chain Shirt, +1 Heavy Steel shield (because tower shield have a max dex bonus of +2) then Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, and Blind-Fight. 10 base + 5 armor + 3 Shield + 4 Dex + 1 Dodge= 23 AC. In addition, you can use your mount as cover on a ride check as a free action (DC 15), in order to gain a +4 to AC while going total defense (+4 to AC) in order to gain a total AC of 31 on the defensive. When not going total defense, Combat Expertise can put your defense up to 26, and Blind-Fight keeps you hard to hit in important situations, without it, your AC versus invisible creatures would be an 18. Also, consider moving the 18 from your Strength to your Wisdom. You'll still have very respectable attacking power, but if you are trying to max out your defensive capabilities, this is a good move. At next level, you'll be able to increase your Wisdom to a 19, which then qualifies you for Blindsight (5 foot radius), and Eyes in the Back of Your Head, making it even harder to gain an advantage on you via illusions or flanking.
Alderic 01-31-04, 04:53 AM	With those stats.... My monk/psi-war had an unarmored AC of 26 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +4 exalted, +4 armor) with VoP and Inertial Armor. At lvl 3 I think you can take a lvl of fighter for the Dodge feat, and maybe even qualify for psionic Dodge, with 5 ranks of tumble you could fight defensively with an AC of 31, but you wouldn't hit anything I guess :p There is also a fighter/samurai i'm building that uses a chain shirt, dastana and chahar-aina (that's the name btw) with an AC of 22 (+6 armor, +4 dex +2 dodge) at first level, but I don't know how much room there is for improvement, unless you start enchanting your armor, at that point you realize you're wearing 3 armors that can be separately enchanted, and things get ugly...
Falido 01-31-04, 08:42 AM	Be a Gnome Thats another +1 size mod to ac and if your playing kalamar you can take the sturdy bones feat for another +1 ac (natural)
MirMo 01-31-04, 09:10 AM	Also don't forget to aquire a Ring of Protection +x (deflection bonus) and an Amulet of natural Armor +x (nat. Armor Bonus) which both stack with mundane armor!! Just my 2 cp
Thomeyis 01-31-04, 06:06 PM	Made a few changes with feats, races, and equipment, based on all the suggestions in this topic(Thanks!) Boris, the Invincible Fighter, Level 3 Race: Gnome Allignment: Chaotic Neutral Str: 16 (+3) Dex:18 (+4) Con: 18 (+4) Int: 16 (+3) Wis: 16 (+3) Cha: 15 (+2) Feats: TWF(Spiked large shield and Short Sword) Improved Shield Bash Combat Expertise Dodge Armor: Chain Shirt +1, Dastana, Chahar-aina Weapons: Spiked Large Steel Shield +1(main hand),attack +4, 1d4 + 3 Short Sword(off hand), attack +4, 1d4 +1 25 AC(10 base, 4 Dex, 5 Chain Shirt, 3 Large Shield, 1 Size,1 Dastana, 1 Chahar-aina) 26 against a single enemy, and a max of 30 with Combat Expertise. Am I missing anything?
trapspringer 01-31-04, 10:05 PM	If you are playing in three point five, there is a feat in the monster manual by the title of improved natural armor which would raise your natural armor by one. It does not stat that you need a natural armor bonus to take the feat, and you meat the pre-requisits. You obviously can not take it as a fighter feat, but it would be far more benificial than dodge, as it applied to the attacks of multiple opponents.
Teh Lurv 01-31-04, 10:37 PM	Thomeyis, Since two weapon fighting won't stack with the shield you are already carrying, you will probably want to ditch the two-weapon fighting feats. I modified your build with the following feat: Phalanx Fighting: Grants a +1 AC bonus when using a large shield and light weapon (which you have) and +4 cover if you lock shields with another PC with the same feat. Another poster mentioned improved natural armor. That is certainly a possibility, though I don't know how many feats you want to burn for AC. I am including it in the build below in keeping with this theme. Another thing, if you are picking a race for max AC, you might want to find a ECL 0 race with natural armor like Kobolds. A +1 NAT armor bonus will serve you and save you the need to spend money on an amulet of NAT +1 until you have the cash to buy a +2 or better amulet of NAT. On the other hand, if you are willing to wait, you could take a better min-maxing race like humans and purchace a casting of reduce with permenancy. Don't forget certain low level spells that grant stackable AC bonuses like proc alignment. Finally, get rid of the high dex score if you are wearing full plate. Here is my version of your character using my suggestions (assuming 2700gp gold): Boris, the Invincible Fighter, Level 3 Race: Kobold Allignment: Chaotic Neutral Str: 14 (+2) Dex:17 (+3) Con: 16 (+3) Int: 16 (+3) Wis: 16 (+3) Cha: 16 (+2) Feats: Dodge Combat Expertise Phalanx Fighting Improved Natural Armor Armor: Full Plate, Hvy Steel Shield +1, Dastana, Chahar-aina Weapons: Short Sword, attack +6, 1d4+3 29 AC(10 base, 1 Dex, 8 Full Plate, 1 Phalanx feat, 4 Large Shield, 1 Size, 2 Natural Armor, 1 Dastana, 1 Chahar-aina) 34 AC with full Combat Expertise
BenjCano 01-31-04, 10:59 PM	Thomeyis, If you switch to Halfling, you would get +2 to your Dexterity...good for another point of AC. Also, Trapspringer, you most certainly do need to have natural armor in order to qualify for the Improved Natural Armor feat. Read the feat description. And Teh Lurv, dastana, and chahar-aina only stack with a Chain Shirt or Padded Armor (as far as I remember). No platemail for you!
Teh Lurv 01-31-04, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by BenjCano And Teh Lurv, dastana, and chahar-aina only stack with a Chain Shirt or Padded Armor (as far as I remember). No platemail for you! I would still dump the chainshirt (and dastana and chahar-aina) and with the full plate. With the chain shirt, 4 of his ac comes from dex which he may lose if he is caught flatfooted, held immobile, etc. The full plate AC will always be with him.
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv Another thing, if you are picking a race for max AC, you might want to find a ECL 0 race with natural armor like Kobolds. A +1 NAT armor bonus will serve you and save you the need to spend money on an amulet of NAT +1 until you have the cash to buy a +2 or better amulet of NAT.Under 3.5 rules, the amulet of natural armor provides an enhancement bonus to armor that stacks with any existing natural armor that a character already has. So I'm not sure what you're saying about the +2 or better amulet. He could play a kobold for the +1 racial bonus to Natural armor, and also buy a +1 amulet of natural armor for a total of +2 Natural Armor.
Thomeyis 02-01-04, 12:00 AM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv I would still dump the chainshirt (and dastana and chahar-aina) and with the full plate. With the chain shirt, 4 of his ac comes from dex which he may lose if he is caught flatfooted, held immobile, etc. The full plate AC will always be with him. Well, if you think about it, Chain Shirt gives +5, max dex +4, plus the ability to use the Dastana and chahar-aina. Without my dex bonus, I still have +7. Full Plate gives +8, with a max dex of +1. Without my dex bonus, I get a total of +8, but with it, I'll only get +9, as opposed to the Chain Shirt's +11. And are there any oter races that qualify for Teh Lurv's idea besides Kobold(Natural Armor)? I like the idea but like I said before, my DM frowns on weird races/templates.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-04, 12:09 AM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv I would still dump the chainshirt (and dastana and chahar-aina) and with the full plate. With the chain shirt, 4 of his ac comes from dex which he may lose if he is caught flatfooted, held immobile, etc. The full plate AC will always be with him. And he will be weaker vs. touch attacks with the full plate, and less mobile. Personally, I like most of my characters to wear light armor and stay mobile if they have the dex for it, but it is a personal preference I guess. Originally posted by Thomeyis And are there any oter races that qualify for Teh Lurv's idea besides Kobold(Natural Armor)? I like the idea but like I said before, my DM frowns on weird races/templates. Umm... kobold is pretty tame as far as "weird races" go. It is arguably weaker than any of the PHB races for most things. And it's not like they're uncommon. They are the rat of the fantasy dungeon. If your DM would frown on playing one of those, I am guessing that there certainly isn't anything else that we could suggest that would have a racial bonus to NA that he would approve of.
Thomeyis 02-01-04, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY And he will be weaker vs. touch attacks with the full plate, and less mobile. Personally, I like most of my characters to wear light armor and stay mobile if they have the dex for it, but it is a personal preference I guess. Umm... kobold is pretty tame as far as "weird races" go. It is arguably weaker than any of the PHB races for most things. And it's not like they're uncommon. They are the rat of the fantasy dungeon. If your DM would frown on playing one of those, I am guessing that there certainly isn't anything else that we could suggest that would have a racial bonus to NA that he would approve of. Try me. Or him. Or whoever you're trying by giving me a race with natural armor.
Teh Lurv 02-01-04, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY Under 3.5 rules, the amulet of natural armor provides an enhancement bonus to armor that stacks with any existing natural armor that a character already has. So I'm not sure what you're saying about the +2 or better amulet. He could play a kobold for the +1 racial bonus to Natural armor, and also buy a +1 amulet of natural armor for a total of +2 Natural Armor. Oh, really? I didn't realize the amulet of NAT now stacks with with present natural armor. Thomeyis, I can't see why the DM wouldn't allow the use of a Kobold, it is generally agreed to be weaker than even the standard PHB races. My use of the Kobold was only meant to be an example of a race with natural armor. I can't think of any other ECL 0 monsters with natural armor off the top of my head.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-04, 03:11 AM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv Oh, really? I didn't realize the amulet of NAT now stacks with with present natural armor.It provides an Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. The Barkskin spell does also, and it specifically says that it stacks with a creature's existing natural armor. And one of the prereqs for making the Amulet is the Barkskin spell. So...