Post/Author/DateTime	Post
geekpocket 07-13-05, 10:06 PM	Im playing in an Eberron game, and my DM has removed the detect alignment spells and eliminated the alignment requirement for prestige classes. I wanted to put this to some good use, so I came up with the following build. It combines assassin and the daggerspell mage. He is a hitman for hire - focused on the death attack solo kill. Improved Sneak Attack is not the Epic feat - it's a feat from Gryphons netbook of feats. My DM has approved it, and basically it changes your sneak attack dice from d6 to d8's. ------------------------------ Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Warrior (UA) 2/Assassin 5/Daggerspell Mage 5/Assassin 5 Race: Whisper Gnome Key Stats: Dex, Int Levels: 1 rogue 2 ranger 3 ranger 4 warrior 5 warrior 6 assassin 7 assassin 8 assassin 9 assassin 10 assassin 11 daggerspell mage 12 daggerspell mage 13 daggerspell mage 14 daggerspell mage 15 daggerspell mage 16 assassin 17 assassin 18 assassin 19 assassin 20 assassin Feats: 1 - weapon focus - dagger 3 - improved sneak attack 4 - evasion 5 - improved evasion 6 - ability focus 9 - silent spell 12 - improved critical - dagger 15 - arcane strike 18 - *open* Essential Skills: Max'd: Hide Move Silently Spot Use Magic Device Other: Concentration 8 ranks Assassin Spells: Level 1: Distract Assailant (CV) Ghost Sound Jump True Strike Level 2: Invisibility Invisibility, Swift (CV) Spider Climb Wraithstrike (CV) Level 3: Deep Slumber Deeper Darkness False Life Level 4: Freedom of Movement Greater Invisibility Death Attack Setup: Pre-Study - Rnd 1: Cast Freedom of Movement Rnd 2: Apply Wyvern Poison to primary dagger Rnd 3 Apply Wyvern Poison to secondary dagger Rnd 4: Cast Invisibility Rnd 5: Cast Poison on primary dagger Rnd 6: Cast Poison on secondary dagger Rnd 7: Activate SLA Silence 3 Rounds of Study - Post-Study - Rnd 1: Move within Melee range, UMD Wand of Web Rnd 2: Cast Silent True Strike Rnd 3: Attack target with - - Wraithstrike as a Swift action - Arcane Strike using 4th level spell (Bonus spell from high Int) - Sneak Attack for +7d8 - Death Attack DC 10+10+2+Int Mod His to-hit is: +14(BAB) +1 (Weapon Focus) +4 (Arcane Strike) +20 (True Strike) = +39 as a touch attack If the target makes his save against the Death Attack, he's got four more fort saves to make versus the double poisoned blades. Ideally, the poison saves would take place before the death attack save, so his Con, and therefore Fort save, would be drastically lowered. If the Death Attack goes first instead and the target lives, the target should be silenced and immobile, so the assassin can Swift action Distract Assailant to finish the target quickly. His caster level for Assassin is actualy 14 which uses the Epic Assassin spells known progression. However, I have not included those known spells in the above build, because Im not sure if you can have an epic prestige class caster level before epic levels. This is my first assassin build, so please point out anything i may have missed that is considered 'standard' for assassins. Also, does anyone have any other good ideas for combos using the no alignment restrictions of prestige classes?
rilem 07-13-05, 10:50 PM	Assuming you've got 10 rounds to buff, yes, you can do some good damage. Any idea what a Wizard or Druid can do with 10 rounds to buff? I fail to see any synergy at all with the Daggerspell mage and assassin. Five levels of DSM gets you some extra skill points and better saves, along with some nifty stuff when you cast energy spells — but the assassin doesn't have any of those. And the final 4 assassin levels are wasted, because you don't have any more spell progression pre-epic. Assassin is generally considered a poor class — you'd be better off with a Wizard/Rogue/DSM with some poison use thrown in. Or just stick with assassin, dump Daggerspell mage and throw on something useful (like shadowlord) in its place.
gabrion 07-13-05, 11:53 PM	This is my first assassin build, so please point out anything i may have missed that is considered 'standard' for assassins. Don't know if it is exactly "standard," but the lucky ability for weapons from XPH is great for assassins. Also, a feat from CW (can't remember at the moment) gives you a bonus to hit for every round you study an opponent (up to three rounds). Seems like it was made for the assassin. Like rilem said, the build itself has some problems. It seems like you would be better off using another PrC that will give you a stacking death attack.
geekpocket 07-14-05, 12:03 AM	Admitedly, the only thing i think that is cool about combining them is that the daggerspell mage can hold a touch spell on their daggers. The problem there is that Assassins dont have a good spell selection, let alone touch spells, save Poison. So as far as combining the classes, i agree with you - partially. The reason for taking the other levels of Assassin is to increase the save DC of the Death Attack. Im sure there are other prestige classes that will do that as well, but i wanted to keep it relatively simple. I know full well what a wizard or druid can do with 10 rounds to buff. However, the objective here is to not let them know you are about to kill them. That's pretty much the whole idea behind assassinating someone, right? And who says this character is killing other PC's? He could make a very successful living taking out important NPC's, i.e. politicians and other noble figures. I tried at first to get telflammer shadowlord into the build as well, but i couldnt fit the 6th level in, which is the important one because of the death attack. I could easily meet the feat requirements for telflammer by dropping evasion and imp evasion and picking up two flaws; but i still would only have 5/5/5 in assassin, daggerspell, and telflammer, respectively. It's not an uber build designed to be the end-all in sneaky combat. He's a one or two hit kill assassin. And while that can also be acomplished by using Wizard/Rogue/DSM - that character doesnt have a death attack.
gabrion 07-14-05, 12:20 AM	It's not an uber build designed to be the end-all in sneaky combat. He's a one or two hit kill assassin. And while that can also be acomplished by using Wizard/Rogue/DSM - that character doesnt have a death attack. The thing is that death attack is usually a sub-optimal tactic, so pulling it off usually requires a build that really twinks it out. It's hard to be a "mediocre" assassin. Either you have a high death attack, or you don't get a lot of business.
rilem 07-14-05, 12:21 AM	Actually, killing politicians and merchants is pretty much all the assassin's death attack is really good at, unless you really take steps to boost it. An easier class to get into is Dark Hunter (CW) — Rogue2/Ranger2/Fighter1/Assassin10/DarkHunter5 — Better BaB, full spellcasting and 15 levels of Death Attack. Wizards and Druids make the best real assassins — see that bird in the window? It just killed you. But I understand the flavor thing.
PhoenixInferno 07-14-05, 02:58 AM	If you can use Forgotten Realms material, there's always the Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadow Pounce and 6 levels of Stacking Death Attack: Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Telfammar Shadowlord 6 Don't have the books in front of me, so I don't know if you qualify for everything, but you get the idea.
Sang-Drax 07-14-05, 07:52 AM	Wizards and Druids make the best real assassins — see that bird in the window? It just killed you. But I understand the flavor thing. :heehee
Overpowered_Munchkin 07-14-05, 09:04 AM	If you can use Forgotten Realms material, there's always the Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadow Pounce and 6 levels of Stacking Death Attack: Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Telfammar Shadowlord 6 Don't have the books in front of me, so I don't know if you qualify for everything, but you get the idea. Don't go rogue 5, instead I think you should go something like this: Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 9/Telfammar Shadowlord 6, this way you also get your int to damage which is very useful if you want to max out your death attack. TWF is always nice too ;). Put your highest stat into int (18 would be best) max out your int and get the feat ability focus (death attack) Also get an assassins dagger, and that enchantment from XPH luck or whatever it is called and you will be get a Death attack DC of 40+ and with twf, you will have quite good damage potential. The ability focus feat is in Savage Species, Telfammar shadowlord is in Unapprochable East and Swashbuckler is in the Complete Warrior.
Eidolon Faer 07-14-05, 12:30 PM	The Daggerspell Mage / Assassin mix doesn't look terribly effective. First of all, I'm not a huge fan of Death Attack. The last campaign I was in, it went from levels 1-17 and we had a Rogue / Assassin in the party. Every combat he tried to use a Death Attack and it never worked. Not even once. He would sit there studying the enemy Wizard...who would be vaporized by the party Wizard (me) after a maximum of 2 rounds. Then he would look for someone else to study and the fight would be over before he got a swing in. Either that or he'd end up Death Attacking something silly like a Fire Giant and the DM would have to roll the save just to be sure the target didn't get a natural one. Frankly, too many critters have good Fort Saves, and the Fort Save DC on Death Attacks is pathetically low. Also, in 3 rounds, a Wizard can drop Finger of Death x3 on a target with a far higher save DC. If you're going to bother with Assassin at all, I would suggest a one-level dip just to get the ability to safely use poison. Take a Wizard level and add DSM caster levels to that. You'll do better keeping Craft: Poisonmaking maxed and casting Fabricate on all the Dragons you kill. Dip your Daggers of Wounding in Dragon Bile poison and go to town. This also has the versatility of getting a Crossbow or Longbow of Distance and using True Strike to nail enemy casters with poisoned arrows from 2000 feet away. They can't Fireball you if you're not in range.
gabrion 07-14-05, 01:03 PM	Also, in 3 rounds, a Wizard can drop Finger of Death x3 on a target with a far higher save DC. I agree with most of what you said, but an optimized assassin would have a much higher DC for the Death Attack.
Areuth 07-14-05, 03:57 PM	Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Death attack, simply, is suboptimal, only INT mod, w/ class levels. Even at 20, with 10 class levels, and assuming an int mod of +7, that is only a Fort save of 27, and there are better things to do with all that int. Even with a save DC of 35, you've wasted 3 rounds, for a save of die effect. You recieve Bard spells, which makes most optimizers cry. IMHO, if you are going to have a high INT modifer, Daggerspell Mage should go with some other PRCs and a Wizard, a DC of 27 isn't hard to obtain or beat and it only takes 1 rd to cast. (spell focus, INT of 30, greater spell focus = dc of 29), and the abnormally high INT actually helps you, instead of requireing tons of feats to make it worthwhile (The spell i'm using in my example is FoD)
Eidolon Faer 07-14-05, 11:44 PM	Much higher DC for a Death Attack? Let's be sure we're not comparing apples to rutabagas here. Are we talking a 20th level fairly-vanilla Assassin versus a 20th level fairly-vanilla Wizard? Or are we takling munchkined-out monster trucks with all the chrome and tires the size of kiddie swimming pools? Because let me tell you, a torqued-out Wizard with all the bells and whistles (including Fatespinner 5, Red Wizard of Ghey, and Greater Necromancy focus) can quite readily push the save DC on Finger of Death to over 40. More depending on how many loyal flunkies he has for Circle Magic. Frankly, Death Attack is something that's just not worth optimizing.
gabrion 07-15-05, 03:28 AM	Much higher DC for a Death Attack? Let's be sure we're not comparing apples to rutabagas here. Are we talking a 20th level fairly-vanilla Assassin versus a 20th level fairly-vanilla Wizard? Or are we takling munchkined-out monster trucks with all the chrome and tires the size of kiddie swimming pools? Because let me tell you, a torqued-out Wizard with all the bells and whistles (including Fatespinner 5, Red Wizard of Ghey, and Greater Necromancy focus) can quite readily push the save DC on Finger of Death to over 40. More depending on how many loyal flunkies he has for Circle Magic. Frankly, Death Attack is something that's just not worth optimizing. Hmm...I was thinking the tricked out versions. How high do you think you can get the finger of death DC, out of curiousity?
Areuth 07-15-05, 04:27 AM	My point was, 29, ISN'T hard to obtain... no PrCs, two feats, only needing an int of 30, that was my point, no optimization, wizard would win ;p
jstorrie 07-15-05, 04:38 AM	Try fitting Fatespinner, Assassin, Telf and Swashbuckler all into the build. That's a start. Ideally you should be not just aiming to max out Death Attack, but set yourself up to fill another iconic role. Skill monkey is the obvious choice; that way you can scout ahead and only death attack when it is appropriate. If you mix in a magical item that bestows telepathy, you could try timing things so that you death attack right before the rest of the party charges in? Touch spells on your dagger isn't anything a couple of levels of Spellsword couldn't do faster.
X-Codes 07-15-05, 05:22 AM	Red Wizard doesn't increace save DCs anymore, only caster level. ...and what I kill stays dead. Sun Elf Cleric 4/Rogue 1/Black Flame Zealot 10/Dark Hunter 5