Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llochlyn 11-23-05, 06:32 PM	Ok, so, another of my "help the DM make his players powerful" This player wants to be a social/acrobatic rogue mostly And he used the Death attack in a one night session once and wants it badly. So, Basic build here : Rogue 5/Assassin 10/ ??? What we want MOST is a huge death attack modifier, so he'll have high intelligence he'll want a relatively high charisma too, but only because he's that kind of player... Rapier fighting probably Assassin 10 as fast as we can, because death attacks DC depends on levels. [Edit] Campaign is Eberron So what feats do we use ? Ability Focus at level 6, to boost the Death attack DC by +2 erm... that's all now Can you help me offer him better ?
SoulGamit 11-23-05, 06:44 PM	Rogue 1 / Archievist 4 / Black Flame Zealot 5 / Strife Leader 10 Base sneak attack DC of 29, not counting int modifier. The Archievist's ability to take spells from every class offsets the lost caster levels. If your intent on the assassin PrC, Ranger 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 10 is a fairly nice start.
rilem 11-23-05, 09:53 PM	without using the fatespinner, the archivist/bfz/strifeleader is probably the best way. Gray Elf Shadowwalker Swash3/rog2/Assassin8/TelflammarShadowlord6 can get a Death Attack up to about 41 or so (not quite as good as the BFZ/Strifeleader). Of course, it's worth mentioning that Death Attack really isn't all that great. You sit around for 3 rounds doing nothing, hoping that your target doesn't have fortification, or concealment or some other tweak that makes him immune to your almighty death attack DC. If your companions are doing their job, he'll probably be dead by the time you get to act, anyway.
PhaedrusXY 11-23-05, 10:18 PM	What Rilem said. For a build like that with feats, check out the Shadowlord Assassin in my sig (and the link within the first post of that thread to the original build).
Reinhart 11-24-05, 12:08 AM	Here's my top secret death attack build . . . finally exposed . . . LE Human Swashbucker 4/Monk 2/Assassin 8/Monk of the Long Death 6 Alternately you could take Swashbucker 6/Assassin 8/Monk of the Long Death 6 for a better BAB but then you have to see how your DM rules Kung Fu Genius works with MotLD and Monk skills can help get into these prestige classes. Take the feats Kung Fu Genius and Ability Focus, and grab an Assassin's Dagger . . . and if you start with a 16 in Int and just raise that . . . 16 + 5 (levels) + 5 (Inherent) + 6 (Enhancement) = 32 (+11) Then you've got +14 from Long Death and Assassin . . . So 10 + 14 + 11 + 2 + 1 = 38. Not bad, eh? And that's just taking into account you can afford the most straight-forward intelligence enhancing DMG gear by level 20. A flexible DM will probably let you add the properties of the Assassin's Dagger to a Amulate of Mighty Fists. The character adds his intelligence to AC, melee damage, and of course the DC for death attacks. Plus you even get hide in plain sight. I'm sure this can be optimized further, but so far I like the simple elegance and power of this build. You can walk into the fancy ball dressed like an unarmed and unarmored guest, kill the prince with the "touch of death" and fade into the crowd again. Another feat you might be interested in is that falcon tactical feat from Complete Warrior. That way you get a bonus to attack from sitting back and observing your foe before the death attack.
Vaelan 11-24-05, 12:57 AM	Rogue 1 / Archievist 4 / Black Flame Zealot 5 / Strife Leader 10 Base sneak attack DC of 29, not counting int modifier. Could you break down how you get the 29 base? I can only see 28. You could also take three levels of one of several Paragon classes from Unearthed Arcana for +2 Intelligence.
Disciple 11-24-05, 07:11 AM	Monk of the long death, strifeleader & Shadowlord are all FR specific. Doesnt help a lot in a Eberron campaign. The Black flame zealot used to be FR but is now sort of... holistic!?
Llochlyn 11-24-05, 08:36 AM	Ok, speaking about flexible DM, I AM the DM :p Thanks a lot guys for the help I must admit the player doesn't want to deal with anything divine or monkish, wich is sad because these are the better ways you provided. We'll talk about it. That being said, we start playing from level 1, and I don't think we will play up to level 15+ [I'd like to, but I don't hope much] I like the parangon idea, let's see if it's of any use : Half elf parangon + human or elf parangon are nice, but take too long. (+2 DC in 6 levels with, I must admit, a higher intelligence... Well...) Rilem's build will better fit the player's tastes and the fact he would've been a gray elf anyway, so it might be used... could you just explain how you achieve the insane DC ? Concerning the uselessness of death attack, sure that is a problem, but you don't "do nothing", as long as you remain hidden, and can keep an eye on your target, you can buff up, poison your weapons etc... Let's remember I keep the game "balanced" and not every single encounter is Min Maxed, I have few fights [harsh fights, sure, but few] in a game, and I like humanoid with levels as a DM. Thus, death attack might be useful sometimes. Trust me, my important fights last way longer than 3 rounds :P I picture it this way : first round, hide or use a invisibility potion, move to a nice spot second round : coat two weapons in a violent poison third round : cast Fox's Cunning, position to flank 4th round, full sneak poisoned attack with a chance to kill or paralyze... Well it might not be as effective as "HIT HIT HIT HIT HIT" but when it works, player is happy
rilem 11-24-05, 09:43 AM	Rilem's build will better fit the player's tastes and the fact he would've been a gray elf anyway, so it might be used... could you just explain how you achieve the insane DC ? Mostly it's Int-buffing: 20 to start, +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent (wishes) + 5 Level-ups +2 shadowwalker template = 38, for +14 to DC Another +14 from assassin+shadowlord levels, +2 Ability Focus, +1 Assassin's dagger. Really nobody would actually do this if they wanted a well-rounded PC; they'd boost their dex or con or something. But you do get a lot of skill points.
Llochlyn 11-24-05, 10:08 AM	Ok, it's not by a magnificent twist in class levels or feats :) It all depends on me, DM, to get those boosts, sweet, more responsibilities :P The 20 starting INT will cost too much, really I use a weird point buy system, just because... 75 points to spend, the 18 costs 27, that's really being focused. (stats begin at 3 points, increase cost 1+actual modifier when positive... 11 costs 8, 12 cost 9, but then 13 cost 11... etc) Anyway, he might be interrested in a very high int, for he'll be the lock/trap monkey, the scout, the social character and wants to be acrobatic, plus death attack...
Reinhart 11-24-05, 11:19 AM	Monk of the long death, strifeleader & Shadowlord are all FR specific. Doesnt help a lot in a Eberron campaign. The Black flame zealot used to be FR but is now sort of... holistic!? Very few prestige classes are truely setting specific beyond their name. My point is that the "Monks of the Long Death" could just as easily be the "Monks of the Mockery" with absolutely no change to their mechanics. Heck, the Long Death is just a concept, not a divine or supernatural figure so you could just port the philosophy right into Eberron without any alteration.
Reinhart 11-24-05, 11:41 AM	Ok, it's not by a magnificent twist in class levels or feats :) It all depends on me, DM, to get those boosts, sweet, more responsibilities :P The 20 starting INT will cost too much, really I use a weird point buy system, just because... 75 points to spend, the 18 costs 27, that's really being focused. (stats begin at 3 points, increase cost 1+actual modifier when positive... 11 costs 8, 12 cost 9, but then 13 cost 11... etc) Anyway, he might be interrested in a very high int, for he'll be the lock/trap monkey, the scout, the social character and wants to be acrobatic, plus death attack... Yeah, if he wants to be stealthy and acrobatic, you might really want to encourage him to take something monkish or swashbucklerish. Duelist also allows you to add your Int modifier to AC, but it's capped by your Duelist levels, unlike the Kung Fu Genius feat. The problem with this is that extra levels of Duelist mean levels you're not taking in Assassin which hurts your death attack. If he wants to be a grey elf then he should take the second build I listed (without the base class monk levels) provided you'll allow it. Emphasize that not every evil person who takes monk levels is a "ninja" or "martial artist warlord" . . . I've always imagined this build belonging to a character that was a mentally driven super-genius spy. Someone brilliantly dedicated to his craft and cause. Like the beginning of the movie Equilibrium. But Death Attack isn't everything. If he's deadset on rogue levels then maybe you should emphasize sneak attacks over death attack. A Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Invisible Knife 5/1 (lvl of a class that grants sneak attack) will get you alot of sneak attack (12d6) without much of a hit to your BAB. The nice thing is that you can also grab a +5 to your AC from your Intelligence Mod through Invisible Knife. It's an odd delimma . . . Death attack synergizes well with Sneak Attack because many classes grant both but . . . If you're focusing on death attack then you're focusing on intelligence so you need a way to exploit that high intelligence. Especially since that means you're not putting your levels and money into increasing your dexterity. And classes like Rogue don't really have ways of exploiting that intelligence in any special way. You can't really focus on spells too much but there aren't many options for making Intelligence a combat ability. Swashbuckler lets you convert that to precision damage, and Kung Fu Genius lets you convert it into AC. Are there any feats or class features out there that convert it to AB or Saves? I wouldn't be surprised but I don't know any of them. Also, if the target fails his save against death attack, then sneak attack damage is pointless. So if you've got a great death attack DC, you sneak attack dice will rarely come into play. Of course if the DC is low then the character will want to have that damage around for backup. Problem is, as an elf with a d6 hitdie he's not going to have the hitpoints to flank in a melee fight for long. Plus, if he's focusing on intelligence then without something that lets him convert Int to AC then his AC isn't going to be great either. He'll really want to use hit and run tactics. In which case Death Attack is optimal.
Ectoplasmoid 11-24-05, 11:54 AM	How about this for nonspecific and better? Rogue5/Asassasin10/Fatespinner5 16 int+ 5 Inherent + 5 Level +6 Cloak =+11 Attack= +15 Fatespinner=+15 AND a reroll So you grab Sniper's Eye as a spell, so that you can launch a hail of death from a ways away.
Llochlyn 11-24-05, 12:19 PM	I totally agree with Reinhart about monk not being only 'ninja' Long death has something religious in it, and I know he won't love it, even if it works really well... But, now that I think a bout it, he might fall in love with the fatespinner idea... What ? he saved... I say NO he didn't save... It appears a very powerful ability indeed for his idea of "i strike, he dies" Sold I'd say... Rogue 5/Assassin 7/Fatespinner 2/Asn 8-10/FS 3-5 I think the reroll needs to be obtained as soon as possible Well, what to do with those 'wasted' spell levels ? Are they really lost ? Maybe rogue 2/Swash 3 if he doesn't want to focus on sneakies... But I know he loves them. Are there save or die spells on the assassin's spell list ? Checking... -Stop Heart, Asn 4, book of vile darkness... More ? The invisible blade build is a nice alternative too, if he wants to focus on sneak attacks badly... Thank you all, you've really helped him screw my game :)
SoulGamit 11-24-05, 01:47 PM	Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 8 / Fatespinner 5 is fairly nice. I'd try to not waste the fatespinner levels by taking another PrC that has its own spellcasting progression... Getting hide in plain sight is more important then getting the reroll.' I think stop heart was errated, btw
Welcome 11-24-05, 02:04 PM	People always seem to forget that BFZ and Strifeleader levels don't stack with each other to determine Death Attack DC. BFZ stacks with Assassin, yes, but that's about it. Feel free to houserule anything you want, though. Other classes granting death attack : Teflammar Shadowlord and Imaskari Vengeance Taker. Both stack with Assassin.
PhaedrusXY 11-24-05, 04:16 PM	Maybe rogue 2/Swash 3 if he doesn't want to focus on sneakies... But I know he loves them.What do you mean by sneakies? Sneak attack dice? When you have a high Intelligence, getting Int mod to damage is a hell of alot better than getting +2d6 more sneak attack dice. You don't have to flank them, or catch them flat-footed, to get the Int to damage. And you only need a 24 Int to get extra damage equal to +2d6.
FabulousRex 11-24-05, 05:29 PM	I can't belive how many of us are forgetting the Ghost-Faced Killer PrC. Their death attack doesn't take several rounds of set-up, just a flat-footed opponent. This is convienient, as you get Invisibility as a class ability. Here's a decent build I cooked up for that PrC: Rogue2/Bard4/GFK10/Blackguard2/Arcane Duelist2 You get plenty of Sneak Attack, tons of Social/Trap skills, and great CHA synergy. Some of the Pre-Reqs are normally tough for a Blackguard, but synergize well with the GFK pre-reqs. Your bard levels also give you free access to 1-2 2nd level spells, like Invisibility. You also can use wands/scrolls of great Bard-only spells like Glibness and Sculpt Sound. Just jack up your CHA and it'll increase your Saves, AC, Frightful Attack DC, and social skills. Oh yeah, and this build just plain DRIPS with Evil! :evillaugh
Llochlyn 11-25-05, 04:50 AM	Er sorry but the GFK doesn't have a death attack It has a scary attack, wich is useful but won't kill someone from a couple hundred feet But the build is nice anyway... tastes evil
sleepydeath 11-25-05, 06:00 AM	I like rogue 3/fighter 2/assassin 9/teflamar shadowlord 6 race: strongheart halfing for extra feat, +dex,+hiding good feat choices:darkstalker, raptorschool, ability focus death attack, spring attack with darkstalker feat such things like blindsense blindsight, scent and tremorsense doesn't spot you. raptor school gives you a bonus to hit and damage (+6 after 3 rounds) when observing the enemy, that's why you will hit better with death attack. base death attack is 10 + 9 assassin + 6 shadowlord + 2 feat = 27 + int mod.
Nazzareth 11-26-05, 07:40 AM	Feats you could consider are craven, staggering strike and mortifying attack.
Xeraph 11-26-05, 08:07 AM	Check my sig for the Black Flame Strife Leader. Very effective, and ok casting aswell.