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| Kingside_Bishop12-09-04, 11:11 AM | So, I was browsing Elfwood.com yesterday and I ran across this picture: http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg.html) I've always wanted to play a Dark Jester, loved this picture, and recently got a look at Complete Arcane and saw the Sublime Chord. So, here's my interpretation. It makes use of the questionable +1/level of existing spellcasting class to boost Sublime Chord levels, though. Race: Human Allignment: Chaotic Evil Class: Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Assassin 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Arcane Trickster 8 01 Rog 1 Expertise, Improved Feint 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 2 / Brd 1 Weapon Finesse 04 Rog 3 / Brd 1 05 Rog 4 / Brd 1 06 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 1 Combat Reflexes 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 3 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 4 Expert Tactician 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 Disguise Spell 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 2 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 3 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 4 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 5 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 6 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 7 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 8 So, he gets 1st-3rd Assassin spells, 4th-9th Sublime Chord Spells, Sneak Attack +9d6, BAB of +12 and Base Saves of +6/+11/+10 (using UA fractional variant, balanced out). He's also got all kinds of cool skills. Between Improved Feint, Impromptue Sneak Attack, Snowflake Wardance, Arcane Strike, and Expert Tactician, his Sneak Attacks will be devestating. Disguise Spell allows him to use all of his spells in the midst of a performance, which is just perfect for the character. Just thought I'd share. He's not the best optimized character, and I'd welcome any input. I don't actually own Complete Arcane, just got a quick look at it in a book store, so I was wondering about the spell selection that the Sublime Chord has to offer. Is it at all compatible with this character? I'm hoping it's just an extension of the Bard spell list, because that would be very compatible. Thanks for any replies! |
| LordKiwi12-09-04, 11:18 AM | Nice build, has plenty of goodies to play with. The link to the picture doesn't work, BTW, although you can get to it by typing in the URL manualy. Just thought I'd share. He's not the best optimized character, and I'd welcome any input. I don't actually own Complete Arcane, just got a quick look at it in a book store, so I was wondering about the spell selection that the Sublime Chord has to offer. Is it at all compatible with this character? I'm hoping it's just an extension of the Bard spell list, because that would be very compatible. It's Bard + Sorcerer/Wizard, with duplicate spells being taken from the bard list. Lord Kiwi, |
| Mommy was an Orc12-09-04, 11:24 AM | It works. I posted a similar version here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4883991&postcount=22). The major problem is skills: Perform and Knowledge(Arcane) aren't class skills for an Assassin. And you need to level up Listen as well. I like the Rogue 3/Bard 7/SC 2/AT 8 better, even though it does less sneak damage. The role is pretty consistent - the Social Rogue who does okay with a trap. |
| Kingside_Bishop12-09-04, 11:40 AM | Nice build, has plenty of goodies to play with. The link to the picture doesn't work, BTW, although you can get to it by typing in the URL manualy. It's Bard + Sorcerer/Wizard, with duplicate spells being taken from the bard list. Lord Kiwi,Thanks! That's weird, because the link works for me... The major problem is skills: Perform and Knowledge(Arcane) aren't class skills for an Assassin. And you need to level up Listen as well. I didn't really put too much thought into that, I generally give my characters a high Int, and he's human. But I guess it could be a problem, when you get into Assassin. I'll put some thought into it. Thanks. |
| RadicalTaoist12-09-04, 12:17 PM | So, I was browsing Elfwood.com yesterday and I ran across this picture: http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg.html) I've always wanted to play a Dark Jester, loved this picture, and recently got a look at Complete Arcane and saw the Sublime Chord. So, here's my interpretation. It makes use of the questionable +1/level of existing spellcasting class to boost Sublime Chord levels, though. Race: Human Allignment: Chaotic Evil Class: Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Assassin 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Arcane Trickster 8 01 Rog 1 Expertise, Improved Feint 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 2 / Brd 1 Weapon Finesse 04 Rog 3 / Brd 1 05 Rog 4 / Brd 1 06 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 1 Combat Reflexes 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 3 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 4 Expert Tactician 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 Disguise Spell 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 2 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 3 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 4 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 5 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 6 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 7 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 8 So, he gets 1st-3rd Assassin spells, 4th-9th Sublime Chord Spells, Sneak Attack +9d6, BAB of +12 and Base Saves of +6/+11/+10 (using UA fractional variant, balanced out). He's also got all kinds of cool skills. Between Improved Feint, Impromptue Sneak Attack, Snowflake Wardance, Arcane Strike, and Expert Tactician, his Sneak Attacks will be devestating. Disguise Spell allows him to use all of his spells in the midst of a performance, which is just perfect for the character. Just thought I'd share. He's not the best optimized character, and I'd welcome any input. I don't actually own Complete Arcane, just got a quick look at it in a book store, so I was wondering about the spell selection that the Sublime Chord has to offer. Is it at all compatible with this character? I'm hoping it's just an extension of the Bard spell list, because that would be very compatible. Thanks for any replies!I like. I know Snowflake Wardance is from Frostburn but I forgot where Expert Tactitian's from. And while we're at it, what do those feats do again? |
| carnivore12-09-04, 12:25 PM | nice build KB dont worry about skills, between bard and rogue...ALL skills are class skills for the character. RT...snowflake wardance allows you to spend a bardic music and get Cha bonus to all attacks with slashing weapons for Perform ranks in rounds, only in light armor. expert tactician allows you an extra attack when ever your enemy loses Dex bonus originally from song and silence, or sword and fist later updated :D |
| Mommy was an Orc12-09-04, 01:19 PM | But they're not for Assassin. From levels 6-10, this guy has 5 points/level reserved for 3 non-vital trapdisarmer/sneak/scout skills that he has to take in order to qualify for SC. A human with a 14 Int is only going to have 2 points per level to spend on 5 skills: Search, Disable Devices, Spot, Hide, and Move Silently. And at level 11, he's not going to have most of those skills as class skills. Which is to say, life is going to be unpleasant if he's the party's primary scout. nice build KB dont worry about skills, between bard and rogue...ALL skills are class skills for the character. |
| Sang-Drax12-09-04, 03:05 PM | If you're using fractional BAB from UA, why not Human Paragon as well? You don't even need bard levels - select Perform as adaptive learning and take the Education feat. You could as well include Spellfilch from Age Of Mortals - trade spell levels for sneak attack dice. |
| LordKiwi12-09-04, 03:10 PM | dont worry about skills, between bard and rogue...ALL skills are class skills for the character. You retain the class skill maximum if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes but you must still pay double if it isn't a class skill in the class you advance that level. Lord Kiwi, |
| Kingside_Bishop12-09-04, 05:57 PM | The skills could be a problem, although a very small one. As an Assassin, I'd need to keep two cross-class skills maxed out: Knowledge (arcana) and Perform. This costs 4 skill points/level, so it eats up my Assassin skills, leaving me with whatever bonus skill points I'd have from my Intelligence and race. That's probably 3 (1 for human, 2 for Int). I'd likely choose Assassin skills to get the full benefit from this limited number. Possible choices would be Move Silently, Hide, Bluff, Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock. Or, I could level them all up but alternate when I take them (i.e. one rank in Move Silently, Hide, and Bluff at 6th level, then one rank in Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock at 7th level). I'd probably do this, to keep all my skills competitive. So, skills will be slightly subpar at levels 6-10, but shouldn't be a huge problem, especially with the number of skill points I'll get at levels 1-5. |
| Mommy was an Orc12-10-04, 08:26 AM | It doesn't seem like it should be a big problem, but you need to take a close look at 5th level - at 5th level, you need to have an 8 Hide(Assassin), 8 Move Silently(Assassin), 6 Spellcraft(SC/Bard only), 8 Knowledge(Arcane)(SC/Bard only) and an 8 Perform(SC/Rogue/Bard only). You also need to get 21 points in Disable Devices, Escape Artist, and Decipher Script for eventual AT and need to max out Listen as well for an additional 8 more at that point. Finally, there's 6 points to spend on that Profession skill. Basically, if you get all of those there, you have just enough points to max out Search if you go Rogue 3/Bard 1/Rogue 1. You don't if you go Rogue 4/Bard 1. And you get an additional point if you go Rogue 3/Bard 2 instead(though uncanny dodge suffers) The skills could be a problem, although a very small one.So, skills will be slightly subpar at levels 6-10, but shouldn't be a huge problem, especially with the number of skill points I'll get at levels 1-5. |
| Tweedledope12-10-04, 10:10 PM | So, I was browsing Elfwood.com yesterday and I ran across this picture: http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/v/e/vena/chey.jpg.html) I've always wanted to play a Dark Jester, loved this picture, and recently got a look at Complete Arcane and saw the Sublime Chord. So, here's my interpretation. It makes use of the questionable +1/level of existing spellcasting class to boost Sublime Chord levels, though. Race: Human Allignment: Chaotic Evil Class: Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Assassin 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Arcane Trickster 8 01 Rog 1 Expertise, Improved Feint 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 2 / Brd 1 Weapon Finesse 04 Rog 3 / Brd 1 05 Rog 4 / Brd 1 06 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 1 Combat Reflexes 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 3 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 4 Expert Tactician 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 Disguise Spell 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 2 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 3 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 4 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 5 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 6 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 7 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 2 / ArT 8 So, he gets 1st-3rd Assassin spells, 4th-9th Sublime Chord Spells, Sneak Attack +9d6, BAB of +12 and Base Saves of +6/+11/+10 (using UA fractional variant, balanced out). He's also got all kinds of cool skills. Between Improved Feint, Impromptue Sneak Attack, Snowflake Wardance, Arcane Strike, and Expert Tactician, his Sneak Attacks will be devestating. Disguise Spell allows him to use all of his spells in the midst of a performance, which is just perfect for the character. Just thought I'd share. He's not the best optimized character, and I'd welcome any input. I don't actually own Complete Arcane, just got a quick look at it in a book store, so I was wondering about the spell selection that the Sublime Chord has to offer. Is it at all compatible with this character? I'm hoping it's just an extension of the Bard spell list, because that would be very compatible. Thanks for any replies! I really like this build. Only one problem, the Snowflake Wardance leaves you fatigued for 10 friggin minutes after you do it. That wouldn't be so optimal if you tried to assassinate someone and didn't quite succeed. Because now, you're close range with a one handed slashing weapon and relatively low hitpoints. I understand that you'll have somewhere around +9d6 SA but, still. Is there any way to get around the fatigue from Snowflake Wardance? -=Tweedledope=- |
| Snicker-Snack12-10-04, 10:21 PM | Is there any way to get around the fatigue from Snowflake Wardance? Yes, the tireless feat from PGtF or a race (or template) that is immune to fatigue. Warforged and Necropolitans come to mind. |
| Qaetar12-10-04, 10:30 PM | Tireless regional feat from Player's Guide to Faerun. You'd end up dropping Combat Reflexes (Unless it's required for Asn?) I think. (Qaetar) |
| Mommy was an Orc12-10-04, 10:36 PM | You wouldn't want to do that - Combat Reflexes is what lets you up the number of AoOs you can do in a round. Tireless regional feat from Player's Guide to Faerun. You'd end up dropping Combat Reflexes (Unless it's required for Asn?) I think. (Qaetar) |
| Kingside_Bishop12-10-04, 10:48 PM | Tireless regional feat from Player's Guide to Faerun. You'd end up dropping Combat Reflexes (Unless it's required for Asn?) I think. (Qaetar)No, but it's a requirment for Expert Tactician, which gives him a whole other attack when they're denied their dexterity bonus to AC, which is vital to the whole assassination thing. That's a good point about the fatigue, though. A really good point. It wouldn't do at all to not be able to run after assassinating someone. There's got to be an item (or maybe a spell) somewhere that grants immunity to fatigue -- the cost doesn't really matter because he doesn't even get Snowflake Wardance until 18th level. Changing races wouldn't work, because then I'd lose my bonus feat for being human. I've been racking my brain, trying to come up with a way to get him Craft Wondrous Item -- there's just so many cool possibilities. Finger Traps with Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Animated Marbles to confound pursuing opponents, plus that hat that every jester has got to have -- god only knows what cool tricks that thing could have. And it would also kill two birds with one stone, allowing me to craft a belt, or boots, or whatever, that gives me immunity to fatigue. Anyone have any ideas? A simple although unsavory fix would be to give him a single level of Fighter at 6th level, dropping a level of Sublime Chord in its place. Then, take Combat Reflexes as the fighter bonus feat, and snag Expert Tactician three levels earlier. Then, for his 9th level feat, take Craft Wondrous Item. Trading in Song of Arcane Might (which isn't totally necessary, but still nice to have) for Craft Wondrous Item is a good trade, I think, although I don't like giving him a level of Fighter. |
| Tweedledope12-10-04, 11:00 PM | Where is Disguise Spell located? I R DUM. |
| Kingside_Bishop12-10-04, 11:04 PM | Where is Disguise Spell located? I R DUM.Song and Silence. I was disturbed that it wasn't reprinted in Complete Arcane, but it might be in Adventurer. It's a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by one. The spell then manifests just like a silent, stilled spell, but it must be part of a performance. So, this character could cast spells as part of a buffoonery act, and no one would know the better. :plotting: |
| JosephKell12-10-04, 11:20 PM | I thought Death Attack was key to Assassination, not Expert Tactician. I think you miss out on the best Assassin Ability by not taking the 8th level. Hide in Plain Sight makes the class as Hide checks can't be penatrated by See Invisibility or the like. |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 12:26 AM | I thought Death Attack was key to Assassination, not Expert Tactician. I think you miss out on the best Assassin Ability by not taking the 8th level. Hide in Plain Sight makes the class as Hide checks can't be penatrated by See Invisibility or the like.I was trying to keep the 9th level spells, because I just like being able to say "I can cast 9th level spells." A variant would be Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Fighter 2 / Assassin 8 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Trickster 4. Loses 8th and 9th level Sublime Chord spells, but gains 4th level Assassin Spells, Hide in Plain Sight, a better Death Attack, a higher BAB, and more feats. I think I like the second build better. Thanks JosephKell! So, to edit the original build, and try to work in Craft Wondrous Item: 01 Rog 1 Expertise, Improved Feint 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 1 / Brd 1 / Ftr 1 Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes 04 Rog 1 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 Expert Tactician 05 Rog 2 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 06 Rog 3 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 Two Weapon Fighting 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 1 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 2 Disguise Spell 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 3 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 4 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 5 Craft Wondrous Item 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 6 / SbC 1 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 7 / SbC 1 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 1 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 2 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 3 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 4 OK, so this build has +8d6 Sneak Attack (down from +9d6), 7th level Sublime Chord spells (down from 9th), 4th level Assassin spells (up from 3rd), +14 BAB (up from +11), two more feats (Craft Wondrous Item and Two Weapon Fighting), Hide in Plain Sight, and a better Death Attack. How's this? |
| Qaetar12-11-04, 12:55 AM | Well, Expert Tactician is most definitely most useful in conjunction with Freezing the Lifeblood and Death Blow when referencing Assassination. However, with Arcane Strike and Snowflake Wardance, Improved Feint isn't that great next to the good ol' Full Attack. However, with the measly BAB, you should prolly drop TWF, and can pick up Improved Feint there, allowing you to take Tireless at level 1. (Qaetar) |
| RadicalTaoist12-11-04, 01:21 AM | 1-lvl dip into Shadowdancer grants Hide in Plain Sight. Requires feats though. Maybe Bardx/Fighter or RangerX/Assassin5/SC5/AT4/SD1 |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 01:23 AM | Well, Expert Tactician is most definitely most useful in conjunction with Freezing the Lifeblood and Death Blow when referencing Assassination. However, with Arcane Strike and Snowflake Wardance, Improved Feint isn't that great next to the good ol' Full Attack. However, with the measly BAB, you should prolly drop TWF, and can pick up Improved Feint there, allowing you to take Tireless at level 1. (Qaetar)I don't know, an extra attack with two weapon fighting in a round with Arcane Strike and Snowflake Wardance would be pretty good, especially if it's also a Sneak Attack. I'm a little hesitant to take the Tireless feat, when I could spend a little gold to create an item that does the same thing and save the feat. Also, I'd be taking a feat at level 1 that I wouldn't really be benefiting hugely from until 18th level. 1-lvl dip into Shadowdancer grants Hide in Plain Sight. Requires feats though. Maybe Bardx/Fighter or RangerX/Assassin5/SC5/AT4/SD1But... :weep: ...I want to keep the Rogue levels! To do that and keep Shadowdancer, I'd use my bonus feats from fighter to qualify for Shadowdancer -- and thereby lose Craft Wondrous Item and Two Weapon Fighting, which I don't really want to do. Besides, taking three extra levels of Assassin isn't so bad -- more Assassin spells, better Sneak Attacks, better Death Attacks, and a modest boost to Sublime Chord caster level. |
| JosephKell12-11-04, 03:20 AM | Sneak Attacking isn't a valid tactic for an Assassin. Yes Sneak Attacking helps for the actual assassination, but usually an Assassin can't have allies tag along since they aren't as sneaky. Which means flanking is out, and during the Surprise Round the Assassin is probably killing the mark, so the round after the Assassin is boned if he stands and fights. |
| Sentient12-11-04, 04:54 AM | No, but it's a requirment for Expert Tactician, which gives him a whole other attack when they're denied their dexterity bonus to AC, which is vital to the whole assassination thing. That's a good point about the fatigue, though. A really good point. It wouldn't do at all to not be able to run after assassinating someone. There's got to be an item (or maybe a spell) somewhere that grants immunity to fatigue -- the cost doesn't really matter because he doesn't even get Snowflake Wardance until 18th level. Changing races wouldn't work, because then I'd lose my bonus feat for being human. I've been racking my brain, trying to come up with a way to get him Craft Wondrous Item -- there's just so many cool possibilities. Finger Traps with Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Animated Marbles to confound pursuing opponents, plus that hat that every jester has got to have -- god only knows what cool tricks that thing could have. And it would also kill two birds with one stone, allowing me to craft a belt, or boots, or whatever, that gives me immunity to fatigue. Anyone have any ideas? A simple although unsavory fix would be to give him a single level of Fighter at 6th level, dropping a level of Sublime Chord in its place. Then, take Combat Reflexes as the fighter bonus feat, and snag Expert Tactician three levels earlier. Then, for his 9th level feat, take Craft Wondrous Item. Trading in Song of Arcane Might (which isn't totally necessary, but still nice to have) for Craft Wondrous Item is a good trade, I think, although I don't like giving him a level of Fighter. Ya know, how bout fleeing? Not like you're terribly worried about honor. D i m e n s i o n D o o r o.O On the assasin spell-list, no? Just leave, if a snowflakey wardance with a couple sneak attacks and arcane strike can't kill your target, you should try again later. Or go to someplace hidden, and cast finger of death. |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 11:39 AM | Sneak Attacking isn't a valid tactic for an Assassin. Yes Sneak Attacking helps for the actual assassination, but usually an Assassin can't have allies tag along since they aren't as sneaky. Which means flanking is out, and during the Surprise Round the Assassin is probably killing the mark, so the round after the Assassin is boned if he stands and fights.I disagree. In my experience, the DC for the Death Attack was never high enough. With the above build, it's 18+Int. That's not that impressive, if it's all you're going to put your money on. A martial target would have a 50% chance of succeeding. (I've never really put much thought into maximizing the DC, though. There are probably items out there that could do it, the Assassin's Dagger comes to mind, but that's only a +1 bonus. Any ideas?) But by waiting in the shadows for the mark to come to him, then making a full attack against him, he gets 6 attacks (3 BAB, 1 TWF, 1 Haste, 1 Expert Tactician), all powered by Arcane Strike, Sneak Attack, and Snowflake Wardance. That's 6d4 daggers, 6d6 acid, 48d6 Sneak Attack, 42d4 Arcane Strike, with +7 and +Cha to all attacks (with a base of Dexterity), meaning the attacks should all hit. This comes out to an average of 309 points of damage, and that's without adding in Strength or Enhancement bonusses to damage. Just to compare, the DMG NPC Barbarian has 175 hit points. He's also got a Fortitude Save of +14, meaning he could survive a Death Attack about half of the time, assuming my character has a 22 Intelligence. Ya know, how bout fleeing? Not like you're terribly worried about honor. D i m e n s i o n D o o r o.O On the assasin spell-list, no? Just leave, if a snowflakey wardance with a couple sneak attacks and arcane strike can't kill your target, you should try again later. Or go to someplace hidden, and cast finger of death.I think Dimension Door is really useful, but it's a 4th level Assassin spell (which with the new build, I get). But still, being fatigued after an assassination would really suck, alot. The image, too. You just don't see master assassins out of breath after an assassination attempt. Other than that, fleeing is in fact a big part of the strategy. |
| Tweedledope12-11-04, 12:48 PM | I was trying to keep the 9th level spells, because I just like being able to say "I can cast 9th level spells." A variant would be Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Fighter 2 / Assassin 8 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Trickster 4. Loses 8th and 9th level Sublime Chord spells, but gains 4th level Assassin Spells, Hide in Plain Sight, a better Death Attack, a higher BAB, and more feats. I think I like the second build better. Thanks JosephKell! So, to edit the original build, and try to work in Craft Wondrous Item: 01 Rog 1 Expertise, Improved Feint 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 1 / Brd 1 / Ftr 1 Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes 04 Rog 1 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 Expert Tactician 05 Rog 2 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 06 Rog 3 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 Two Weapon Fighting 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 1 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 2 Disguise Spell 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 3 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 4 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 5 Craft Wondrous Item 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 6 / SbC 1 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 7 / SbC 1 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 1 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 2 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 3 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Ftr 2 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 4 OK, so this build has +8d6 Sneak Attack (down from +9d6), 7th level Sublime Chord spells (down from 9th), 4th level Assassin spells (up from 3rd), +14 BAB (up from +11), two more feats (Craft Wondrous Item and Two Weapon Fighting), Hide in Plain Sight, and a better Death Attack. How's this? I hate to be such a pain in the arse about the Snowflake Wardance but, you might want to re-read it. I believe (and unfortunately I'm at work with no book on hand) that it stats that it only works with one slashing weapon in one hand. Thus, I don't see a viable benefit for Two-Weapon Fighting...maybe you should replace it with the Tireless feat. Some ideas, -=Tweedledope=- |
| Tweedledope12-11-04, 02:34 PM | Another thing that I took note of. You wanted to be able to incorporate the Craft Wondrous Item feat into your build but, why? I understand the gameplay reasons why you would want some little magical trinkets and I also understand why you'd want them for roleplay reasons. But, you're a Rogue. You could easily just "borrow" some money from someone and then have that high level wizard in that big town just make them for you. Sure, it might cost more, but it doesn't take away from the flavor of this build. I just think that your builds are excellent with little problems. However, this last little diddy might need some revision. -=Tweedledope=- |
| JosephKell12-11-04, 02:41 PM | Kingside, if you can give me a convincing argument why Sneak Attack is a legitimate strategy for a solo PC AFTER the surprise round, and I will accept it. But like I keep saying, "Assuming that a PC always gets to Sneak Attack is the biggest misconception on this board." If you use multiple Assassin PrC's and are able to convince your DM to let their levels stack for the Death Strike DC, then you could get 25 + Int Modifier. I think Ability focus can add 1 or 2 to the DC also. |
| PhaedrusXY12-11-04, 03:16 PM | Kingside, if you can give me a convincing argument why Sneak Attack is a legitimate strategy for a solo PC AFTER the surprise round, and I will accept it.If you win initiative, then the first round of real combat still leaves your enemy flat-footed. So you get to make your Surprize Round attacks, then make a full round of sneak attacks. With a decent TWF build with lots of sneak attack dice, that will kill most creatures that aren't immune to crits or have Uncanny Dodge. |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 05:27 PM | :I hate to be such a pain in the arse about the Snowflake WardanceDon't worry about it, it's why I post to the boards. It helps me make better characters, because everyone's got a few tricks they know about that I don't. You might want to re-read it. I believe (and unfortunately I'm at work with no book on hand) that it stats that it only works with one slashing weapon in one hand. Thus, I don't see a viable benefit for Two-Weapon FightingI don't have it on hand, either, but I called my friend, who is borrowing it. He says it can be used with any melee weapon you use in one hand, so I think I can use it with two daggers. ...maybe you should replace it with the Tireless feat.The only reason I'd be taking it is to offset the penalty from Snowflake Wardance. Without Snowflake Wardance, I wouldn't really want Tireless. Besides, I can just shell out a little gold to get an item that does the same thing. Another thing that I took note of. You wanted to be able to incorporate the Craft Wondrous Item feat into your build but, why?You're right, I could just have a mage make the items for me. I really like making my own items, though. That is, I intend (if I ever play this character) to have alot of toys. The less gold I have to spend, the more toys I can have. This is the big drive behind having Craft Wondrous Item -- more and better toys. I just think that your builds are excellent with little problems. However, this last little diddy might need some revision.Thanks! When you say this last little ditty, do you mean the original build, or the build after adding the levels of Fighter and Assassin? Kingside, if you can give me a convincing argument why Sneak Attack is a legitimate strategy for a solo PC AFTER the surprise round, and I will accept it.OK, assuming that neither the Death Attack or Sneak Attack damage doesn't kill a target in the suprise round/1st round of combat, he's probably going to be in trouble. If that happens, and for some reason he can't get away, then you're right, he'd abandon Improved Feint and fall back on full attacks with Arcane Strike... oh... I see what you guys are saying now... 6 attacks with Arcane Strike, or 2 attacks with Arcane Strike and Sneak Attack. Well of course the 6 attacks are better! So then, because Improved Feint is vurtually useless at higher levels, I'd want to drop it, which also allows me to drop Expertise. So, because I no longer need those two bonus feats, I could drop those levels of fighter, and pick up two more levels of Arcane Trickster, getting 8th level spells back, and another dice of Sneak Attack! And get rid of those ugly fighter levels! The build would then look like this! 01 Rog 1 Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes 02 Rog 1 / Brd 1 03 Rog 2 / Brd 1 Expert Tactician 04 Rog 3 / Brd 1 05 Rog 4 / Brd 1 06 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 1 Two Weapon Fighting 07 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 2 08 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 3 09 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 4 Disguise Spell 10 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 11 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 5 / SbC 1 12 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 6 / SbC 1 Craft Wondrous Item 13 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 7 / SbC 1 14 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 15 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 1 Arcane Strike 16 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 2 17 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 3 18 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 4 Snowflake Wardance 19 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 5 20 Rog 4 / Brd 1 / Asn 8 / SbC 1 / ArT 6 Thanks! Any other suggestions? This is great! I love this board! |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 05:33 PM | Oops, double post. Smilie time! My favorites are... :dancin: :evillaugh :plotting: :rant: |
| Tweedledope12-11-04, 07:32 PM | I was referring to the second build and...to "indirectly" quote Frostburn... Snowflake Wardance: "...with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand." So, I suppose that you could use two daggers, afterall, they are weilded in one hand! Good build. |
| Wyrd Bearer12-11-04, 10:18 PM | Interesting build you have going for you, Kingside. I might be interested in playing a similar one now, though one less focused on assassination. I am curious though about Expert Tactician and Disguise spell feats... I don't have access to any books that have those two in them. Could someone please post EXACTLY what they do, both benefit and detrimentwise (I'm only saying this b/c someone posted what Snowflake wardence did and I thought it was awsome up until someone else mentioned that it leaves you fatigued afterwards...) Thank you |
| Kingside_Bishop12-11-04, 10:38 PM | Interesting build you have going for you, Kingside. I might be interested in playing a similar one now, though one less focused on assassination. I am curious though about Expert Tactician and Disguise spell feats... I don't have access to any books that have those two in them. Could someone please post EXACTLY what they do, both benefit and detrimentwise? Thank youThanks! Disguise Spell is from Song and Silence, and Expert Tactician is from Sword and Fist, updated in Song and Silence. I'm hoping both will be in Complete Adventurer, because they're two of my favorite feats. I'll quote from the text: Oops, I guess that's illegal. Thanks Phaedrus! |
| PhaedrusXY12-11-04, 10:50 PM | It is illegal (and I mean against the law, not just the rules of conduct) to post material from a book that is not open source onto these boards. It can also get you in trouble with the WIZOs, as it is also against the code of conduct. Having said that... you can often find alot of info at www.crystalkeep.com (Copy and paste it into your browser's address bar) |
| Wyrd Bearer12-11-04, 11:15 PM | Sorry, I didn't to get anyone in trouble... :embarrass |
| carnivore11-30-05, 07:53 PM | :bump: to save :D |
| Tasmar11-30-05, 10:19 PM | this build gains new meaning with the feat Able Learner, considering the OP intended to be human anyways, it would save on the skills that cost double to get into all those PRCs, which would allow the PC to take more ranks in useful skills. |
| Aramas11-30-05, 10:35 PM | I think you should take Able Learner as well. It solves your cross-class skill problems. Also, Expert Tactician no longer does what you think it does. It is of no use to your build now. It was updated to 3.5 in Complete Adventurer, page 109. Death Attack is a horribly weak ability. Do not rely on it at all. You can attempt to use it by all means, but don't expect it to work and it's not worth investing feats or lots of class levels into it. |
| Tweedledope08-02-06, 07:36 PM | ...and, like the good Lord intended, life is brought back unto a creation of genius. Yeah, I can't let this thread slip. It's one of the best and I would really like to see it updated with all the new material, afterall, it is almost 2 years old. ;) -=TD=- |