Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zerolight 02-24-05, 04:21 AM	If a charecter where to persue contract killing as a profession, and by that I mean that they eliminate targeted sentient creatures for personal gain, They face alot of challenges. For low levels, thugs with some backstab and a death attack with a bit o poison on the side gives PCs nightmares. However for the truly challenging jobs? The barb chieftain that refuses to give up his lands, the vampire lord running the cities underworld activities, or the affluent wizard selling low priced magical items and shifting the balance of power. These types of targets could have immense fort saves, immunity to criticals, and/or the magic spells/items/powers to really vaildate the high price you are charging for your service. The question is if the Assassin PrC is the right choice for making the a professional assassin. How does disintigrate or power word kill compare to death attack? Or perhaps just sneak up then rage/frenze, wake up and wash off the pieces. I know that a specialist would probally have a easier time for each one but if you where trying to pick up as many high profile hits as possible, over specialzation will limit you. THE CHALENGE?!? To create a build for your Perfect assassin needs to be able to: 1. Locate target 2. Infiltrate or bypass security 3. Kill target (the more permiently the better), consider facing some of the builds you find on this forum 4. Escape to collect your earnings lets try to keep it to 3.5 rules
Purpledragonfire 02-24-05, 04:25 AM	versitility the ability to scry if u need/ buff/ dispell and just plain fight.... whatever u need u can be plus good skills and nice abilities A great assasin rogue 3 fighter 2 chameleon 10 whatever 5:) maybe ranger 4 or hexblade 4
Vecna 02-24-05, 04:39 AM	THE CHALENGE?!? To create a build for your Perfect assassin needs to be able to: 1. Locate target 2. Infiltrate or bypass security 3. Kill target (the more permiently the better), consider facing some of the builds you find on this forum 4. Escape to collect your earnings lets try to keep it to 3.5 rules If you don't add some constraint, a Sor/Wiz or a Psion can easily 1. Scry 2. Teleport in 3. Save or Die spell 4. Teleport out but it's not very funny...
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 04:49 AM	I think a character with Assassin levels could take out "regular" targets extremely well. By "regular" I mean roughly humanoid and not undead/constructs. Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6, taking the Shadow-walker template Rog1 Dodge, TWF Rog2 Ftr1 Weapon Finesse, Mobility Ftr2 Spring Attack Rog3 Asn1 Blind-Fight Asn2 Asn3 Asn4 ITWF Asn5 Asn6 Asn7 Ability Focus: Death Attack Telf1 Telf2 Telf3 GTWF Telf4 Telf5 Telf6 Quicken Spell-like (Dimension Door) Asn8 Asn9 Obviously keeping INT as high as possible gets an extremely high Death Attack DC, but the bonus that would immensely help this build is the spells Telf and Asn get. Both rely on INT, and anything above a 26 INT would get 2 bonus spells of levels 1-4 for EACH CLASS. Because this type of assassin would need extreme versatility and adaptability, all those spell slots of low-level spells can produce some extremely useful utility spells. In addition, he has all those darkness/shadow spell-like abilities from his Shadow-walker template. Sure, you don't get the Disintegrates and the Sunfires, but you do get loads of little things to help you reach and assassinate your target. Once the target is reached, cast greater invisibility, study him/her/it for 3 rounds, make a full-round sneak attack, if he survives the Death attack, use a quickened d-door for another full-round sneak attack, and he ought to be close to dying. Getting away should be simple with all those d-doors and other spells/SLAs you have.
PhaedrusXY 02-24-05, 05:40 AM	HERE IS THE ECL 20 VERSION THAT USES ROGUE INSTEAD OF NINJA!! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4078961) I have an NPC based on this build (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4078961) in a game I run. Even characters with good Fort saves are likely to die to her death attack, and even if they don't they are likely to die from the damage she dishes out unless they're immune to crits and/or have Uncanny Dodge. Against targets that are crit immune, or have Uncanny Dodge.... well with an Int of 36, she can afford to max alot of skills, including Use Magic Device. Edit: Here's the actual stats for the NPC. She's the leader of the Teflemmar Shadowlords in the game I DM. The Death Attack is a bit lower, but overall it's a stronger build I think. Throw in some scrolls of Scry and whatever else she needs. She has a bit of money left over for a 20th level character. (But alot more than for a normal NPC, heh.) Grandmaster of Shadows Keshna Finlothleer Human Shadow Walker RokuganNinja4/Swashbuckler3/Assn8/TeflS6 Hit Dice: 18d6+3d10+147 (229) Initiative: +19 Speed: 30 ft. (70 hasted Xill) Armor Class: 29 (37 hasted Xill form) (10+7AC+2Defl+2Nat+8Dex), Touch 22, Immobilized 21 Base Attack/Grapple: +17/+19 Attack: +32 hasted Kusari-gama 1d6+16/15 (+6d6 Sneak Attack) Full Attack: Hasted TWF Kusari-gama +30/30/30/25/25/20/20/15 (1d6+16/15) (+6d6 Sneak Attack) (Avg 18.5 or 39.5 Sneak Attack) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10ft. as two-handed weapon) Special Attacks: Death Attack: Fort DC 37 Special Qualities: Shadowvision 60 ft., light sensitivity Saves: Fort +20, Refl +28, Will +15 (Hasted) Abilities: Str 14, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 34, Wis 12, Cha 14 Skills: (325 skill points, factored using Int 26) Maxed Skills: Bluff26, Hide36, Move Silently32, Sense Motive25, Spot25, Listen25, Use Magic Device26, GatherInfo26, Disguise26, Disable Device36, Tumble32, Diplomacy30. Other Skills: Sleight of Hand20, Search*25, Appraise20, Spellcraft15. Feats: Dodge (Ninja1), Weapon Finesse (bonus), Combat Reflexes (h), Mobility (1), Blindfight (3), Spring Attack (6), TWF (9), ITWF (12), GTWF (15), Spellcasting Harrier* (18), Quicken Spell-like Ability: Dimension Door (21) Challenge Rating: 22 Alignment: neutral evil Level Adjustment: +1 Benefits: Improved Uncanny Dodge, Int mod to damage and Initiative, Poison Use, HiPS, Shadow Pounce, Shadow Disincorporation, Shadow Jump (120ft), Shadow Blur, and +6d6 sneak attack. *Used a Wish to gain the ability to Search for traps like a rogue. Death attack DC = 10+8+6+12+1 = 37 Items: +5 Int Tome, +6 Int Item, weapon, +1 Str Tome, +2 Str Item, +6 Dex Item, +4 Dex Tome, +6 Con Item, +4 Con Tome, +2 Nat Armor (8k), +2 Ring Prot (8k), Leather Armor +5 w/Max Dex +8 (25k+), +2 spellstoring ghost touch Kusari-gama (chain side) (32k), Assassin's Dagger* (18k), Boots of Speed (12k), 3 Clairvoyance/Clairaudience scrolls, Gem of Seeing (75k), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k), lightproof belt pouch with 3 daggers with Deeper Darkness on them. Has or can gain access to any non-artifact item via her guild. Usually has either Vampiric Touch or Blindness in the spellstoring end of her weapon. *Kama side functions as an Assassin's Dagger Spent: Tomes 384.5k, Stat Items 112k, Other 205k. Total 706.5k. Spell-like Abilities (CL 21): Shadow Mask 3/day, Dimension Door 3/day, Darkness 3/day, Shadow Spray 3/day, Displacement 2/day, Evard's Black Tentacles 1/day, Shadow Walk 4/day Assassin Spells (DC 22+level): 1st(6)- Obscuring Mist, True Strike, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound 2nd(6)- Alter Self, Undetectable Alignment, Pass Without Trace, Invisibility 3rd(6)- Misdirection, Magic Circle vs. Good, Deeper Darkness, Nondetection 4th(4)- Modify Memory, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door TSL Spells (DC 22+level): 1st(5)- Knock, Blindness/Deafness 2nd(5)- Vampiric Touch, Air Walk 3rd(4)- Confusion *House-ruled feat that I use instead of Mage Slayer.
Welcome 02-24-05, 06:39 AM	For scrying, Death attack, and SA dice, the Imaskari Vengeance Taker from Underdark works pretty well. Also, a well-built Assassin will have a death attack DC around 40. That's probably better than what most casters can achieve with a heightened finder of death or disintegrate, and well above what a regular NPC can save against (though an optimized paladin/hexblade might be a problem with his 2*cha to saves). Also, don't forget the Assassin's Dagger for +1 to the death attack DC. You can buy one, pile up additional boni on it, and add the enchantments Sizing and Morphing to turn it into any weapon you want, if daggers aren't your thing (costs a lot though). Or just persuade your DM to let you buy an Assassin's [whatever] *shrug*.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 06:54 AM	Haha Phaedrus, our builds are eerily similar. Except yours crossed into epic levels with 21 HD and mixed campaign settings, and mine has 20 and stays FR. Also, your build doesn't make use of Asn spells from other sourcebooks. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but I find this type of character can really make use of spells like Wraithstrike, Sniper's Eye, Amorphous Form, etc.
PhaedrusXY 02-24-05, 07:02 AM	Haha Phaedrus, our builds are eerily similar. Except yours has 21 character levels and mixed campaign settings, and mine has 20 and stays FR. Also, your build doesn't make use of Asn spells from other sourcebooks. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but I find this type of character can really make use of spells like Wraithstrike, Sniper's Eye, Amorphous Form, etc.Mine is an actual NPC in the game I DM, which is in the eastern portion of Faerun (and so has Rokugan and Oriental Adventures elements in it). And I don't own any of the books with the spells you're talking about. I'd certainly recommend 3 levels of swashbuckler in any Assassin build, as the synergy between the Death Attack, spells, skill points, and Int to damage is too good to pass up. And you lose a point of BAB for the 9th level of assassin, anyway. A super-high Death Attack DC looks nice on paper, but if you're wanting a playable character, it's not everything. I've been "preaching" the Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Assassin8/TeflemmarShadlowlord6 as the ultimate assassin build for a long time now. ;)
Khazra Reborn 02-24-05, 10:58 AM	I like: thri-kreen, rokuan ninja7/ninja of the crescent moon10 Basicly you run in, invisible, taking a 10 on your maxed out move silently, whack the person with 7 attacks & turn invisble again. Oh, & cover the blades of your weapons with collossal scorpion poison just incase....ummm DC54 fort save!
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 11:10 AM	Khazra, your only trick is Hide and Move Silently, backed by some multiweapon fighting? Be serious.
scrollreader 02-24-05, 11:12 AM	I prefer an extreme sniper build. Ranger 4/Ftr 1/Deepwood Sniper 7/Peerless Archer 3/And then Cragtop Archer 5 Mutishot is nice. Wild Talent -> Fell Shot tree Use Hunter's Mercy for an autothreaten, if you hit. You can re-roll the confirm with steady aim. I'd either take versatile: UMD, or use a ring of spell storing. The first is a far stronger choice. You should be able to drop just about anything not immune to crits in a single (multi)shot, anf then hide. With the distance modfiers, nothing will ever see you, as you hide as a move action. Combine the Cragtop ability to ignore range penalties, fell shot and power shot. KERBLAM. +100 pts of damage, just from power shot. Which is, I'll note, per arrow. Power Shot isn't precision damage, so Multishot adds it to all your arrows. Against targets protected from crits, use the burst weapons. Even on crit immune enemies they'll function, and with that x5 modifier. Might take more than one shot to drop them this way, but still an option.
scrollreader 02-24-05, 11:13 AM	I like: thri-kreen, rokuan ninja7/ninja of the crescent moon10 Basicly you run in, invisible, taking a 10 on your maxed out move silently, whack the person with 7 attacks & turn invisble again. Oh, & cover the blades of your weapons with collossal scorpion poison just incase....ummm DC54 fort save! Ninja of the Crescent Moon is not a valid 3.5 class. :rolleyes:
lostone 02-24-05, 11:21 AM	Some of the 60+ attacks per round master thrower builds can really dish out damage, and if they can afford it they could have +1 wounding returning throwing knives or some kind of homebrew bracers/gloves that enchant the knives with wounding and assassinate small groups through Con damage. Those builds tend to be able to handle the move silently and hide, and can learn where their target is through gather information.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 11:25 AM	Now this thread is just becoming ridiculous. He's not asking for pure damage potential--that's not what an assassin does. He's asking for a character to be able to bypass many different types of hindrances and protections to reach a single target, kill that target as efficiently as possible, and run away unscathed. What if the assignment requires that no one see the assassin? For example, if the job were to make the death look like a suicide? Some anthropomorphic squid throwing daggers at everything that jiggles isn't going to cut it. There's a reason Phaedrus included spells like "Modify Memory" in his build. So let's get back on topic.
lostone 02-24-05, 11:33 AM	Well then maybe you should start your own thread, he didn't make subtlety a requirement, just the ability to get the target dead and escape. Look at today's assassin's, car bombs and explosives seem to be a popular way to kill a target, but they aren't exactly subtle. There is more than one way to skin a cat. 1. Locate target 2. Infiltrate or bypass security 3. Kill target (the more permiently the better), consider facing some of the builds you find on this forum 4. Escape to collect your earnings
scrollreader 02-24-05, 11:38 AM	Who's off topic? Go read the initial requirements again. I'm supposed to kill a target, as permanantly as possible, and survive to collect payment. If, say, the target is a king of smack, I /sure/ as hell aren't going to survive melee with him. Karmic Strike makes it suck to be me. Dittop the machochist, Frenzied Zerker with a Wrathful Healing Weapon. My character has good skills points throughout, a nice high BAB, and the ability to do 400 pts of damage to something crit immune at a /looong/ range, armed with nothing more than 4 arrows and a normal bow. I don't know about you, bit since most real world assassination (that are sucessful) take place with rifles, I'd consider my entry to be qualified.
Lilt 02-24-05, 11:45 AM	Pure damage potential is a perfectly valid method of killing the target efficiently. 'Insane' damage is probably even more reliable than Save-DC reliant damage as there's a 1-in-20 chance the target will survive any death attack. If your build can dish-out enough damage to kill most targets in 1 round (preferably 1 simple action so it may be done before initiative is rolled) and be garuanteed to hit (as with Hunter's Mercy) then I think that's a solid asassin. Multiple attacks can work too as then as-long-as the majority of them hit you should be OK.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 11:45 AM	scrollreader: Nobody's talking to you. Don't get pissy. lostone: Yeah, look at requirement #2 and #4. What if the city is structured like a--gasp--realistic one? With a police force, a very centralized government, and law-abiding citizens? How are you going to get past a bunch of law-enforcing high-level mages and clerics in addition to a realistic citizenry with some guy throwing knives at the front door? You kill the guards, go in, kill the man, come out, and find that the neighbors have called the police--now you have a group of mages and paladins waiting for you, with loads of contingencies ready in case you hide or teleport or do anything like that. Reality can sometimes (read: usually) be a good model for the fantasy ones. Lilt:Pure damage potential is a perfectly valid method of killing the target efficiently.Unfortunately, it's not a perfectly valid method of assassinating the target efficiently. Read my reply to lostone above.
lostone 02-24-05, 11:53 AM	Yeah, look at requirement #2 and #4. What if the city is structured like a--gasp--realistic one? With a police force, a very centralized government, and law-abiding citizens? How are you going to get past a bunch of law-enforcing high-level mages and clerics in addition to a realistic citizenry with some guy throwing knives at the front door? You kill the guards, go in, kill the man, come out, and find that the neighbors have called the police--now you have a group of mages and paladins waiting for you, with loads of contingencies ready in case you hide or teleport or do anything like that.Well the Master Thrower builds I'm talking about will kill most targets in 6 seconds. To get by the guards at the door that's 6 seconds, if the assassin plans ahead they'll have something to bypass the door, either a scroll or something else, that's another 6 seconds. 18 seconds the target is dead, and the witness is still running as fast as their little legs can take them to find the nearest law enforcement officer. Most fantasy cities don't have magical phone booths on every corner, it's going to take some time before you have high level wizards teleporting in. Unlike the real world where every witness has a cellphone and police can be there within minutes (still enough time for criminals to get away if they have a good escape route planned). As long as a character does his homework, any build can realistically be an assassin, I don't understand why you're beign so hostile about this. Not everyone is going to play the game the same way you do.
scrollreader 02-24-05, 11:58 AM	I'm a little suprised nobody's mentioned the mad bomber druid yet. With a Mask of the Misplaced Aura, even True Seeing shows him as a cute little birdy. Then .... KABOOM. Also, for what it's worth ancal, I happen to agree with you that sometimes, the better assassin is the one who uses one of those nasty ingested poisons in the DMG. What's that you say? a pure bard? Well, sometimes. But chill. This isn't your thread. You don't own it, believe it or not. Or, to satisfy my love of irony "Nobody's talking to you. Don't get pissy." :smirk:
lostone 02-24-05, 12:01 PM	I'm a little suprised nobody's mentioned the mad bomber druid yet. With a Mask of the Misplaced Aura, even True Seeing shows him as a cute little birdy. Then .... KABOOM. :D I haven't seen this...and search isn't working for me, do you have a link to it?
scrollreader 02-24-05, 12:12 PM	Search is sucking right now. But it involved a druid (or an artificer) using fire seeds to deadly effect as Holly berry bombs. The original concept used Elem Sub:Sonic, back in 3.0. Still a strong tactic now, as long as at least one kind of energy they can take damage from. The Mask of the Misplaced Aura is from Sharn, City of Towers and is AWESOME as it defeats True Seeing.
Welcome 02-24-05, 12:16 PM	My character has good skills points throughout, a nice high BAB, and the ability to do 400 pts of damage to something crit immune at a /looong/ range, armed with nothing more than 4 arrows and a normal bow. I don't know about you, bit since most real world assassination (that are sucessful) take place with rifles, I'd consider my entry to be qualified. What if the target is indoors, in a small room ? With no windows ? :P
lostone 02-24-05, 12:20 PM	What if the target is indoors, in a small room ? With no windows ? :PThat's when you improvise. Find some way to draw them out, like setting the building on fire, the target either comes out or burns.
Setanos 02-24-05, 12:22 PM	Druid 20 is one of the best assassins period. Wildshaping into rats/birds for scouting, Natural spell to cast in that form. Horrific Druid spells, like the above mentioned Fire Seeds.
scrollreader 02-24-05, 12:25 PM	Then nobody can prove he's alive. Schroedinger's Cat. :P I dunno about a locked room murder. I suppose the best bet would be a phasing arrow. Yech. You might be able to do it with ghost touch, depending on your DM. 'counts as either incorporeal or real, when favorable" IIRC. I don't have my DMG with me to doublecheck. Scry on them. Then use true strike to negate concealment, and the ghost touch arrow to go through the walls. Depending on how ghost touch is interpreted, you might need to be ethereal yourself for that to work. Locked rooms are hard, though. I mean, put somebody in a locked room, inside a forbiddance effect, and /nobody/ but nobody is going to be able to get in and kill somebody easily.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 01:07 PM	Well the Master Thrower builds I'm talking about will kill most targets in 6 seconds. To get by the guards at the door that's 6 seconds, if the assassin plans ahead they'll have something to bypass the door, either a scroll or something else, that's another 6 seconds. 18 seconds the target is dead, and the witness is still running as fast as their little legs can take them to find the nearest law enforcement officer. Most fantasy cities don't have magical phone booths on every corner, it's going to take some time before you have high level wizards teleporting in. Unlike the real world where every witness has a cellphone and police can be there within minutes (still enough time for criminals to get away if they have a good escape route planned). As long as a character does his homework, any build can realistically be an assassin, I don't understand why you're beign so hostile about this. Not everyone is going to play the game the same way you do.Hey now, nobody's being hostile. I just don't feel the need to apologize for disagreeing. Anyway, as for your hit-and-run tactic, what if you can't simply bypass the door with "a scroll or something else"? What if the place has traps all over the place, locks all over the place, hidden things your daggers won't get rid of? What if law enforcement has solid ways of figuring out who did it, like tracking, asking people what they heard or saw, asking neighbors for suspicious characters hanging around that night, etc., etc.? You cannot possibly be telling me that doing a lot of damage can replace skills and utility spells for a moderately-realistic assassin. Also, for what it's worth ancal, I happen to agree with you that sometimes, the better assassin is the one who uses one of those nasty ingested poisons in the DMG. What's that you say? a pure bard? Well, sometimes. But chill. This isn't your thread. You don't own it, believe it or not. Or, to satisfy my love of irony "Nobody's talking to you. Don't get pissy." A bard can definitely be a legitimate assassin. He's got a bag of tricks almost nobody else can match. And no, I didn't start this thread, but that doesn't mean I don't have the intelligence to read the OP and read some damage-optimizing Master Thrower build and conclude that the goals of the two have little in common. (Your retort is well-spirited, but lacks a punch, by the way. If I had actually gotten pissy at someone--or even if I weren't being addressed by both of you--it would have worked much better.)
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 01:12 PM	I don't know what a forbiddance effect is, but here is another instance of where a pure-damage-dealer is simply worthless. What if the target has got himself locked in a stone building within earshot of the city guard headquarters? With a damage-dealer, you're screwed. With the build I posted above, cast Amorphous Form (also mentioned by me above), slip in through a crack, assassinate the target silently, and slip back out. This is why in the end, the best assassins are still probably the casters--especially the spell-preparing types like wizards--since they have so much versatility. Edit: I just read the spell description for Forbiddance, and the Amorphous Form tactic still works, since it's not planar travel. The worst that could happen is the assassin's alignment is so different from the caster's that he takes 12d6 damage on a failed Will save. No big deal.
Surreal 02-24-05, 01:40 PM	1) polymorph/wild shape into a small spider 2) infiltrate compound, locate target 3) crawl along rafters above target while he sleeps, dangle silk above mouth, drip poison 4) run away (idea stolen from some movie I saw years ago)
Purpledragonfire 02-24-05, 01:46 PM	Grosse pointe blank........ classic...... see also use pen :)
scrollreader 02-24-05, 02:03 PM	I don't know what a forbiddance effect is PHB or SRD. It's not I'm pulling it from some obscure sourcebook, here. And an airtight room is going to hose your amorphous form trick. You know, like the ones in, say, Heart of Nightfang Spire, or other high level published adventures. I simply tossed up up a build that exemplifies, in my mind, the assassin, and is not EQ or Campaign restricted. Besides. Nothing's stopping me from using UMD to match anything you can do with a caster. Or a ring of spellstoring. Obviously specific situations vary the requirements for an assassination. But a well prepared Rogue 5/Assassin 10, who has good intel can take out a 20th level character. Nothing fancy at all. Having said that, I think everybody here can agree an Artificer makes the best assassin, simply because of his massive spell access, if you have an infinite amount of time to prepare. Which is a pretty big /if/.
Gerdreg 02-24-05, 02:06 PM	Not much you can do if a Hulking Hurler/Warhulk/Master Thrower throws a meteor on your house for several thousand dice of damage. Getting in and getting out are irrelevant. On a serious note, I would have to say a well planned out Wizard would be the best Assassin.
scrollreader 02-24-05, 02:18 PM	Well, most every tactic has a counter. In the case of the hulking hurler, his BAB suffered a great deal, so he had to use the trick that allowed a reflex save. Psions(with their ability to auto-20 on a save) and Paladin of Slaughter/Marshall/Hexblade/Blackguard save monkeys could avoid it, IIRC. In the case of the Wizard Assassin, and since the original poster mentioned it, the Dweomercheater. BAM. The arcanist is shut down, and the Dweomercheater will romp and stomp all over them. My build, oddly enough, can shoot the Dweomercheater just fine, as the critical enhancements go on the bow and on me, and don't go on the arrows. And heck, most of them are (Ex). Which is nice. On the other hand, my build does have some issues in the lcoked room, or dungeon type scenarios, as pointed out. The only build really and truly able to deal with /anything/ is an Artificer/Cleric with enough Cleric levels to qualify for Cheater status himself, and acess to EVERY SPELL for ALL classes, via magic items and scrolls. And he needs prep time like nobody's business.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 02:45 PM	Again, I think this thread is getting off-topic, but in a different direction. Now we're going on a romp into the land of "HEY LET'S SET UP DUELS BETWEEN THE FAMOUS BROKEN BUILDS OF THE CO BOARD" instead of listing builds that could actually get playing time and would do well in a majority of assassination scenarios. Basically, to scrollreader and everybody else, ignore random newbies who like to drop the hulking hurler into every thread they post on. Nobody cares, and it's almost always irrelevant. So you can drop a rock on a house. Then the authorities come after you and you die. End result? Your career as an assassin was about as successful as a pile of doo pretending to be an apple.
Surreal 02-24-05, 03:19 PM	How about builds with good bluff and diplomacy? Talk your way in, gain your victim's trust, then pour some hemlock in his ear. It's not quick, but offers better role play opportunites. It'll work better in situations too where you need to take out the main bad guy, but also need the recon and info to fully take down the organization. Or... just perform a coup and proclaim yourself as the new leader. That works too. You can rp the typical assassin, the love angle, the power corrupts angle, whatever.
Rod Howard 02-24-05, 03:41 PM	This is my attempt to create a viable assassin: Race: Elan, or Human with Wild Talent at first level. 1. Warlock | *Eldritch Blast 1d6*, Point Blank Shot 2. Warlock 3. Warlock | *Eldritch Blast 2d6*, Psionic Shot 4. Warlock 5. Rogue | *Sneak Attack 1d6* 6. Assassin | *Sneak Attack 2d6*, Psionic Meditation 7. Assassin 8. Assassin | *Sneak Attack 3d6* 9. Assassin | Greater Psionic Shot 10. Assassin | *Sneak Attack 4d6* 11. Arcane Trickster | *Eldritch Blast 3d6* 12. Arcane Trickster | *Sneak Attack 5d6*, Mortalbane 13. Arcane Trickster | *Eldritch Blast 4d6* 14. Arcane Trickster | *Sneak Attack 6d6* 15. Arcane Trickster | *Eldritch Blast 5d6*, Empower Spell-Like Ability 16. Arcane Trickster | *Sneak Attack 7d6* 17. Arcane Trickster | *Eldritch Blast 6d6* 18. Arcane Trickster | *Sneak Attack 8d6*, Maximize Spell-Like Ability 19. Arcane Trickster 20. Arcane Trickster | *Sneak Attack 9d6*, Eldritch Blast 7d6 Invocations: Level 1 (least): Darkness Level 2 (least): Devil’s Sight Level 4 (least): See the Unseen Level 12 (lesser): Fell Flight Level 14 (lesser): Flee the Scene Level 16 (lesser): Voracious Dispelling Level 17 (greater): Entropic Warding Level 19 (greater): Devour Magic Assassin Spells Known: Level 1: Disguise Self, Ghost Sound, Obscuring Mist, Sleep, True Strike Level 2: Alter Self, Invisibility, Undetectable Alignment Level 3: Misdirection, Nondetection You are always dangerous, even if captured or imprisoned. Using a combination of invocations and spells you can make yourself undetectable, unrecognizable, untrackable and move around freely to do whatever you have to do. If you like to get your objectives from a distance, change an invocation with Eldritch Spear. Taking Vitriolic Blast is also advisable. Overall, I prefer this progression.
Khazra Reborn 02-24-05, 03:41 PM	Khazra, your only trick is Hide and Move Silently, backed by some multiweapon fighting? Be serious As you payed no attention to the abilities of the build, ill expand on what ill do to fufill all 4 criteria.... 1. Everyone has a price: bribe guard with money (use obscene stealth skills to steal it) or kidnap there family (again, sneak in, knock out wife/child, put in a bag of holding & run away) & blackmail them into telling you where your target can be located. 2. use your invisibilty & climbing ability to infiltrate the enemies base/house/esate etc. 3.coup de grace them, using poison. Even hulking hurlers/cheaters of mystra/Fbs have to sleep sum time ;) 4. Invisibility out. Another good assasin would be a cleric 20. I would strongly suggest the magic & trickery domains. Draconic polymorph into a stell predator or other powerful burrowing creature. Few enemies will expect to be attacked from below :eek:
Welcome 02-24-05, 04:04 PM	You're all missing something pretty important in a fantasy world. Who cares how good an assassin is when friends of the target have access to resurrection spells ? Especially True Res, which doesn't even need a body. Thus, I propose that any serious assassin must have a thinaun weapon (I don't know of any other way to prevent True Res ; maybe there's a spell for that, I'm not really spell-savvy). Preferably not too heavily enchanted, because once the deed is done the best thing would probably be to dunk it in a slab of wet cement or mortar, let it dry, and teleport it all to the bottom of the sea.
ancalimohtar 02-24-05, 04:22 PM	Khazra: I fail to see how any of your steps is particular to your build. ANY build with a mode of stealth can do what you propose. Answer my situations above with your build (stone house with an unpickable door, people who can't be bribed, etc.) Ron: I don't believe you progress your Eldritch Blast with AT levels. Otherwise it looks nice.
catharz 02-24-05, 04:46 PM	A Wizard 20 is probably the best assassin out there. If you can get Teleport as a druid, you're almost on the same level. It basically comes down to a matter of how things are balanced in 3.Xe: Spells are more powerful than non-spells because spells can be used a limited number of times per day. Because that isn't an issue with an assassination, spells always win. Secondly, wizards are balanced because they have to prepare spells in advance, which means they might end up with some useless ones. However, assassinations are always completely planned anyway. The teleport ambush is certainly the easiest, but it isn't the only way. Because of the nature of spell mechanics, non-casters can't even come close in assassination effectiveness.
Rod Howard 02-24-05, 04:49 PM	Khazra: I fail to see how any of your steps is particular to your build. ANY build with a mode of stealth can do what you propose. Answer my situations above with your build (stone house with an unpickable door, people who can't be bribed, etc.) Ron: I don't believe you progress your Eldritch Blast with AT levels. Otherwise it looks nice. Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" as a level advancement benefit. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock's level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1-1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level) A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though as he had gained a level in the warlock class. From Complete Arcane, page 18.
Zerolight 02-24-05, 04:50 PM	You guys are all great. There are some excellent tactics and builds that have been discussed here. A few things that I think would help any would be assassin are; Thinaun ,found in CW, a speicial material (metal) that holds the soul of anything that dies while the metal is touching him/her/it. Great stuff! Consider not just killing the target but using thinaun knives to hold the souls of all your victims. No more true reserection! You could even sell the soul to the ones who hired you. A way to not be Known, while not stated in the oringinal post, it is implied that you havent gotten away to collect your payment if every bloundhound, vigilanty, royal gaurd etc. is waiting at your house before you get home. Another reason to stay unseen, modify memories, be disguised, be an invited guest (who would think it was the bard that killed her) or kill all witnesses, is that such strong targets probally have a strong following. A king, a merchant prince, the mind flayer a cult worships as there god, if you leave a trail it will be followed. Which of course can be a great ammo for the DM, especial if you are a invited bard, but I'm sure players would want to keep that limited. Explosive tactics are fine if no one can trace them back to you. Know thy target, I allways wondered why the Assassin PrC doesnt have Knowledge Arcana as a skill. Its one thing to scry and see the temple leader is a Half-troll grey slaad were-turtle monk, but its another to know what that is and what its weakness are. Bardic knowledges, high gather info, the ability to read minds, somthing to counter the fact that my DM has more monsters, races, templets and PrC then he knows what to do with. Real thinking!!!! More then all the stats in the game you have to think of cool ways eliminate targets. Alot of the post have not just great and great ways to deal with difficult situations. You probally would never make a charecter that has the powers to outright kill anything but with a bit o thought you might be able to trick some stupid hulking huler into crushing the stronghold of the anti-magic guild or think of some other way to get what you need done. Assassins are great enemies and PCs. In the end I wanted the thred so that people could find some builds that showed that, not to mention some of the cool ways to work with the Assassin PrC. Assassination quest offer allot of things that you can find missing in so many other types of adventures.
Rod Howard 02-24-05, 04:52 PM	A Wizard 20 is probably the best assassin out there. If you can get Teleport as a druid, you're almost on the same level. It basically comes down to a matter of how things are balanced in 3.Xe: Spells are more powerful than non-spells because spells can be used a limited number of times per day. Because that isn't an issue with an assassination, spells always win. Secondly, wizards are balanced because they have to prepare spells in advance, which means they might end up with some useless ones. However, assassinations are always completely planned anyway. The teleport ambush is certainly the easiest, but it isn't the only way. Because of the nature of spell mechanics, non-casters can't even come close in assassination effectiveness. I once made a caster killer character. My DM felt it was too overpowered and I was just being bastard to all of his bastard NPCs. So, one day, he decided one of these bastard NPCs wanted to kill me and sent a level 20 wiz to murder my character. A lonely optimized NPC came into my inn room. Only my character came out the following morning.
sma 02-24-05, 06:21 PM	I once made a caster killer character. My DM felt it was too overpowered and I was just being bastard to all of his bastard NPCs. So, one day, he decided one of these bastard NPCs wanted to kill me and sent a level 20 wiz to murder my character. A lonely optimized NPC came into my inn room. Only my character came out the following morning. So one GM sent an NPC who died while pulling off a teleport ambush. Way to invalidate that statement. Sorry if I come off as offensive, but anecdotal evidence tends to be rather useless, as it heaviliy depends on the playing style, and basically proves nothing.
PhaedrusXY 02-24-05, 06:46 PM	You're all missing something pretty important in a fantasy world. Who cares how good an assassin is when friends of the target have access to resurrection spells ? Especially True Res, which doesn't even need a body.The best core ways to prevent True Res are to turn the target into some kind of undead, or use Soul Bind (or Trap the Soul-which could be considered an assassination method itself). Of course a wizard could use these, but so could a "typical" assassin with a good Use Magic Device bonus. And he'd also have the skills to get around things that magic can't take care of, like a really good locked door in the middle of a dead magic zone. (Yes, it's an extreme example, but it could happen. :P )
Timespike 02-24-05, 07:50 PM	I'd think a deggerspell shaper would be almost perfect. Between a Decent BAB & saves, all of the wonderful stealth & combat options wildshape brings, and the exceedingly potent druid spell list, I'd say better contract killers would be hard to come by.
catharz 02-24-05, 09:22 PM	I once made a caster killer character. My DM felt it was too overpowered and I was just being bastard to all of his bastard NPCs. So, one day, he decided one of these bastard NPCs wanted to kill me and sent a level 20 wiz to murder my character. A lonely optimized NPC came into my inn room. Only my character came out the following morning. You noticed the wizard come in? Oops...
DBoot 02-24-05, 09:57 PM	Professional Assassin Human Shadowwalker Monk 4/Cleric 1/Assassin 10/Dark Hunter 5 Few notes: Domains are Darkness (for blind-sight), and Luck (in FR, Mask grants these domains) Even though Dark Hunter's Death Attack ability does not explicitely state that it stacks with other Death Attacks, most DMs will give it to you. Its not without precedence, after all, and even if not, it's just some shuffling with levels and feats to get the same result. Okay, Death Attack break down 10 (base) + 10 (assassin levels) + 5 (dark hunter levels) +12 (intelligence) + 2 (ability focus) = 39 (40 with Assassin's Dagger) If you can swing it, get Urban Track instead of Track. It's more useful, but we're not exactly short on feats. My set up (* are optional) 1. Improved Initiative*, Able Learner (Human), Faerie Mysteries Initiate*, Kung-fu Genius 3. Weapon Finesse* 6. Eschew Materials*/Quick Draw* 9. Nonverbal Spell * 12. Sunschool *(If you don't go, or plan to go Shadowlord eventually) 15. Urban Track/Track 18. Ability Focus: Death Attack Complete Adventurer is your best friend. Sniper Mode: Assumes your target will be out in public. 1. Find a nice rooftop or something. Or just a wall. Stone's Hue hides you very well, and you can use spiderclimb to hold on. 2. Cast Sniper's Eye. You can now make ranged death attacks. You also get plenty of nice visual bonuses. Use your spy glass to locate your target. Study him. Cast True Strike as well, if you feel you must. 3. Cast Sniper's Shot. You can now make sneak/death attacks at any distance (assuming you can shoot that far) 4. Fire your Crossbow loaded with a radiant holding bolt. As a surprise touch attack, they only get their size and deflection bonuses to AC. DC 39 Death attack. Jump in: Assumes your opponent is alone. 1. Locate opponent. Your Spy glass helps. Study him. 2. Dimension Door -> Sunschool = DC 40 Death attack, and perhaps poison as well. 3. Escape. Plain Sight: Assumes you can get right next to your opponent. 1. Use Alter Self (Ring of Chameleon is great), Undetectable Alignment, Glibness and Absorb Weapon to get close to target (perfect for gala events) 2. Engage your target in conversation. Your conversation counts for the verbal component of your spells. 3. Quick Draw your Absorbed Weapon, and cast Insightful Feint. A Free action Feint with a +14 bonus to roll. Glibness can be used to convince the target to look away as well. You can also cast Wraith Strike instead, if he has a high flat-footed AC. 4. DC 40 Death Attack. Use your move action to get to shadows or stone, and you can use your HIPS/Stone's Hue to disappear. Dimension Door to escape. Alternatively: Arrange for a black out. You have Darkvision, and don't need to waste your time hiding. Alternative Alternatively: If you do take levels in Shadowlord, cast Darkness yourself. You can see through Magical Darkness. Escape Tactics: Dimension Door HIPS/Stone's Hue Invisibility, Swift -> HIPS/Stone's Hue Spider Climb Etc... Don't forget, with your high intelligence and Able Learner, you can have high ranks in balance, climb, escape artist, tumble and so on... So Mundane methods work just as well. For this reason as well as the fact your a monk with Wraith Strike, means you're still a great assassin while completely naked. Luck Domain will mean that you never have to accept an opponent's natural 20. Being an Assassin means NEVER fighting on your opponent's terms. And if faced with an truely impossible target (which among non undead/constructs number few), one always has the option of turning the job down. Edit: Also, about the resurrection thing... Thinuan Steel works in a dead magic zone. And you could always sell the trapped soul to devils.Live comfortably in this world and the next. After all, devils can't get their hands on uncurrupted Paladin souls like you can. You're Evil, maybe even Vile, granted, but you're a business man (or woman) first and foremost. Act like it.
edwardsobel 02-25-05, 07:28 AM	Where is shadowwalker from? is it a template? I keep seeing it referenced here
ancalimohtar 02-25-05, 07:54 AM	Shadow-walker: template from Unapproachable East, page 70. Can only be applied to humanoids.
ck2001wendt 02-25-05, 08:56 AM	Professional Assassin Human Shadowwalker Monk 4/Cleric 1/Assassin 10/Dark Hunter 5 4. Fire your Crossbow loaded with a radiant holding bolt. As a surprise touch attack, they only get their size and deflection bonuses to AC. DC 39 Death attack. Death attacks only work on attacks dealt with a melee weapon (Assassin, DMG, pg. 180).
Helmed Horror 02-25-05, 09:22 AM	ninja 10/Fighter2/Pious Templar 3/Occult Slayer 5 Turn ethereal to get in and get out, Occult slayer goodies vs. Wizards Fighter feats, evasion and mettle, 17 BAB
lostone 02-25-05, 09:31 AM	While I haven't played one, the Ghost Faced Killer (CAd) looks like it would do well.
ancalimohtar 02-25-05, 09:42 AM	Death attacks only work on attacks dealt with a melee weapon (Assassin, DMG, pg. 180). 2. Cast Sniper's Eye. You can now make ranged death attacks. You also get plenty of nice visual bonuses. Use your spy glass to locate your target. Study him. Cast True Strike as well, if you feel you must. Please read entire posts before replying.
ck2001wendt 02-25-05, 10:28 AM	Please read entire posts before replying. I did fail to read that spell closely, but the critique stands. It is unlikely that Sniper's Shot and Sniper's Eye (which only extends the Death Attack to 60 ft.) stack. You will be able to sneak attack at any distance, but not Death Attack.
Lilt 02-25-05, 11:06 AM	Not been here for a while. Lemme try and catch-up: @ancalimohtar: I wasn't assuming that the pure damage dealer would kill the guards, get in, then kill the guy. I was merely saying that immense damage-dealing can be more reliable for killing the target than relying on saves which have a 1 in 20 chance of going wrong. A 20th level Peerless Sniper with an Elven Double Bow could nail a target for at-least 200 damage using Hunter's Mercy and Manyshot. No chance he'll miss, no chance he'll roll a 20 on a fort save, all he needs is LOS and a couple of actions. Essentially: Pure damage is more reliable than pure save DC on death attacks. I'm not saying that that's all that's needed, entry and exit means are also important, but it could be enough if your target ever takes a walk. Welcome is correct that the serious assasin will need a way to stop the target from being raised. PhaedrusXY has some good points about trapping the soul ETC. I think that one way to stop him from ever being raised by them is to raise him yourself and to keep him in a scry-proof room (preferably also a dead- or anit-magic area). That way no true-res or miracle can bring him back to life (as he's already alive) but they may not know that.
Gerdreg 02-25-05, 11:41 AM	Again, I think this thread is getting off-topic, but in a different direction. Now we're going on a romp into the land of "HEY LET'S SET UP DUELS BETWEEN THE FAMOUS BROKEN BUILDS OF THE CO BOARD" instead of listing builds that could actually get playing time and would do well in a majority of assassination scenarios. Basically, to scrollreader and everybody else, ignore random newbies who like to drop the hulking hurler into every thread they post on. Nobody cares, and it's almost always irrelevant. So you can drop a rock on a house. Then the authorities come after you and you die. End result? Your career as an assassin was about as successful as a pile of doo pretending to be an apple. Nice insult...I guess i'm a "random newbie who likes to drop the hulking hurler into every thread they post on". Dude lighten up! This isn't even your thread and your acting like your some official mod. Please start your own thread if you don't like it. Your flames are more off topic than the posts you are flaming. Anyway it was a joke, if you had even got to the end of my post you would have seen my vote was for Wizard 20. "Then the authorities come after you and you die" Bwahaha! Setting aside that this has nothing to do with the poster's requirements, this is dnd, not new york city. Dnd is full of infamous assassins, such as Artemis Enrteri. In medieval and feudal (for ninja) times, reputation was valuable weapon, sometimes even more valuable than the harm being known as a hired killer caused. Unless the original poster wants to add a 5th requirement (anonymity) I don't think it's relevant to his challenge. Back to the original topic. As pointed out by Scrollreader (using a Dwoemercheater against my Wizard), every tactic has a counter. There may not be a best assassin for every target, or "mark" if you will, but there may be a best assassin for EACH one. Zerolight, would you care to specify the challenge a bit, giving us some relavent info on who or what we would be killing? I still think I can prove Wiz 20 is the best assassin in "most situations" shearly with spell selection.
Vorlir 02-25-05, 11:46 AM	Interesting idea about raising the target. But dont forget the target has a choice about coming back and knows who is raising him/her.
ancalimohtar 02-25-05, 11:58 AM	I did fail to read that spell closely, but the critique stands. It is unlikely that Sniper's Shot and Sniper's Eye (which only extends the Death Attack to 60 ft.) stack. You will be able to sneak attack at any distance, but not Death Attack.? I don't understand. Sniper's Eye allows ranged Death attacks. Could you explain how he is not able to make one after casting the spell? "Then the authorities come after you and you die" Bwahaha! Setting aside that this has nothing to do with the poster's requirements, this is dnd, not new york city. Dnd is full of infamous assassins, such as Artemis Enrteri. In medieval and feudal (for ninja) times, reputation was valuable weapon, sometimes even more valuable than the harm being known as a hired killer caused. Unless the original poster wants to add a 5th requirement (anonymity) I don't think it's relevant to his challenge.At least the way I play, D&D is generally realistic in human emotions and reactions, if not physical phenomena. Thus, if you throw a gigantic rock at a house in Waterdeep and you kill your target, you don't think the Lords would send some powerful wizards to roast you? This isn't about making a reputation. Artemis Entreri had a reputation for being a great assassin precisely because he didn't throw gigantic rocks in broad daylight. I don't get it. If you were joking, why did you bother to respond to that part of my post? You were joking, yet now you defend your joke statement?
Gerdreg 02-25-05, 12:41 PM	? I don't understand. Sniper's Eye allows ranged Death attacks. Could you explain how he is not able to make one after casting the spell? At least the way I play, D&D is generally realistic in human emotions and reactions, if not physical phenomena. Thus, if you throw a gigantic rock at a house in Waterdeep and you kill your target, you don't think the Lords would send some powerful wizards to roast you? This isn't about making a reputation. Artemis Entreri had a reputation for being a great assassin precisely because he didn't throw gigantic rocks in broad daylight. I don't get it. If you were joking, why did you bother to respond to that part of my post? You were joking, yet now you defend your joke statement? Can't..resist...troll...must...respond. I don't think you get it because you didn't read it. Allow me to help you understand my post. I said "On a serious note, I would have to say a well planned out Wizard would be the best Assassin." That was part that indicated I WASN"T serious before. The whole idea of a giant assassin who throws meteors on people's houses is just plain funny. If you don't see the humor, I can't help you. "I don't get it. If you were joking, why did you bother to respond to that part of my post? You were joking, yet now you defend your joke statement?" What does this mean? It makes no sense. I'm not defending my joke, I'm responding to your insult. Please read this carefuly as I won't be responding to you again. In your attempt to be insulting, you have once again missed the point. I was making fun of your assumption that there even is "the authorities" in many dnd worlds. As absurd as my suggestion was, you obviously took it seriously, and your opposing viewpoint, that some sort of police were going to come and punish me, is absolutley hilarious. I can't stop laughing. I am imagining the police coming and trying to arrest a giant for dropping a meteor on someone's house. I think you lost the ability to see the joke here because you have made youself part of it.
ck2001wendt 02-25-05, 02:24 PM	? I don't understand. Sniper's Eye allows ranged Death attacks. Could you explain how he is not able to make one after casting the spell? Snipers Eye allows a ranged death attack...of 60 ft. Snipers Shot allows an unlimited range SA...but NOT an unlimited range DA. SA != (does not equal) DA. Sniper's Eye pushes BOTH SA and DA out to 60 ft. (and says so explicitly). Sniper's Shot says nothing about DAs. Considering the spells are right next to one another in the same book, it is unlikely (but possible) that Sniper's Shot was meant to affect DAs. So, if you want to sit around in the same space for 4 rounds (three to carefully study the target, one to cast Sniper's Eye and shoot)., and make sure your target is within 60 ft. of you on that 4th round, that's your call. Of course, Death Attacks aren't a great way to kill someone in the first place. Bracers of Greater Fortification would completely negate the attack.
ancalimohtar 02-25-05, 03:35 PM	What does this mean? It makes no sense. I'm not defending my joke, I'm responding to your insult. Please read this carefuly as I won't be responding to you again. In your attempt to be insulting, you have once again missed the point. I was making fun of your assumption that there even is "the authorities" in many dnd worlds. As absurd as my suggestion was, you obviously took it seriously, and your opposing viewpoint, that some sort of police were going to come and punish me, is absolutley hilarious.So then what's to stop the HH from being a great assassin? The fact that there are consequences to letting people see you kill someone. I can't stop laughing. I am imagining the police coming and trying to arrest a giant for dropping a meteor on someone's house. I think you lost the ability to see the joke here because you have made youself part of it.Is it really that funny? So funny you "can't stop laughing" at your computer screen? Uh oh, don't break out the "ROFLMAO" please. You didn't respond to my Waterdhavian situation, by the way. You don't think the "authorities," i.e., the Lords of Waterdeep, would let the HH walk around after destroying a building in broad daylight, do you? If you do, I've got a bridge I want to sell you. If you don't, you agree with me. Either way, your laughing won't do much. Snipers Shot allows an unlimited range SA...but NOT an unlimited range DA. SA != (does not equal) DA. Sniper's Eye pushes BOTH SA and DA out to 60 ft. (and says so explicitly). Sniper's Shot says nothing about DAs. Considering the spells are right next to one another in the same book, it is unlikely (but possible) that Sniper's Shot was meant to affect DAs. So, if you want to sit around in the same space for 4 rounds (three to carefully study the target, one to cast Sniper's Eye and shoot)., and make sure your target is within 60 ft. of you on that 4th round, that's your call. Gotcha. DBoot's Sniper Mode step #3 is wrong, but he can still make a DA within 60 feet. I didn't actually consider the possibility of making a ranged DA from more than even 30 feet away, so the distinction was lost on me.
Zerolight 02-27-05, 01:57 AM	This wasnt made to be a very specific challenge. I left the guidelines vague on purpose, so that we could see some varity in the types and styles of assassins and assassinations that found here. The secondary reason was to compare the Assassin PrC to anything someone could come up with and see where it excels and where it may fall behind. I love the idea of giving targets to kill and I was going to write a post (probally in general dd) asking who are dd charecters that people would most like to see assassinated. It would still be difficult to just list them here and ask for builds to kill them however becuase so much could be involed in the situation that in would turn into a posted quest (which would be cool but I dont really thing this is the board for that). And remember it says YOUR prefect assassin, if you post a Aristocrat 4/ Expert 16 great, but be prepaired for there to be some critisizims especaily with things pretaining to game mechanics. So post your builds or ideas, defend them sensibly, and critique others with out being overly coarse.
Zerolight 02-27-05, 02:03 AM	Of course, Death Attacks aren't a great way to kill someone in the first place. Bracers of Greater Fortification would completely negate the attack. Does wraith strike also count to avoid fortification? I thought it did if it was part of the armor but bracers? you could even sleep in bracers. I personally love anit magic feilds, are there other ways to get around greater fort.
ck2001wendt 02-27-05, 08:04 AM	The greater Fort property works no matter what. The other great way around Criticals is to have a Warshaper or Warforged Juggernaut with levels of Devoted Defender as a Cohort. The target gets attacked, and the bodyguard steps in to take the hit...ignoring the DA and SA. For my money, the best Assassin is a dual-wand wielding Wizard or a Blasterficer.
Lilt 02-27-05, 08:53 AM	For my money, the best Assassin is a dual-wand wielding Wizard or a Blasterficer.The problem with the magical route is that they're completely crippled by Antimagic Fields and dead magic zones. They have very little combat or stealth potential besides magic, all of which can be defeated with a mere 6th level spell.
lostone 02-27-05, 09:00 AM	Most characters on the Character Optimization board are cripple by antimagic fields, since most of them include magic items that are critical to the build in some way or another, and assume the character will be able to buy said item in the game (since many of the builds can't create magic items at all).
ck2001wendt 02-27-05, 09:24 AM	The problem with the magical route is that they're completely crippled by Antimagic Fields and dead magic zones. They have very little combat or stealth potential besides magic, all of which can be defeated with a mere 6th level spell. Well, if you're willing to sac 3 CL, you can go for Clr 3/Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/MT (or something. Archmage for Mastery of Energy) 2, take Initiate of Mystra and Practiced Spellcaster, then focus on Dual Wand Wielding and/or Staff wielding (+MM Spell Trigger, +Imp. MM). Note that Initiate of Mystra says nothing about which CL you have to use to beat an AMF...so you're Arcane 20th. Not the greatest build, but wholly without Dweomercheater cheese.
DBoot 02-27-05, 10:32 AM	ck2001wendt- You're right on the sniper's shot bit. At least I think. This is a bit convoluted, but stick with me. I think I might actually be going somewhere with this. If not: Oops. Sorry. The text for death attack is a bit weird. Just as is, it does not mention immunities or any other stipulations (save for the melee sneak attack part), merely the consequences. Sneak attack of course gives us the following restrictions (of note) -Ranged Sneak Attack limit of 30 ft. -No Undead, Oozes, Constructs, Plants, and Incorporeal creatures. -Does not function on beings immune to critical hits. Quote: Fortification 'When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.' Okay, now this is where it gets dubious. Light and Medium Fortification does not negate the valadity of a target to death attack. We'll stick with that much for now. More over, Heavy Fortification has a 100% chance of negating the sneak attack and causing damage to be rolled normally, however, it is NOT labled an immunity. Quote: Assassin 'If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). ' Quote: Sneak Attack 'If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time... etc. ' Okay, I'm not saying its the spirit of the rules, or that an DM is ever going to let it slide, but I have nothing better to do at the moment so... A sneak attack is defined as an attack which deals extra damage due to certain conditions being fulfilled. An opponent with Heavy Fortification is, as we have said, a legal target (though there is a 100% chance that the sneak attack will be negated and damage will be calculated normally). Death Attack is contingent on making a legal sneak attack (meaning against a legal target) and dealing damage in that sneak attack (which is defined as a regular attack with bonus damage due to aforementioned conditions being fulfilled). Fortification does not negate the occurence of a sneak attack, merely the damage related consequences of a sneak attack. Its tenuous... but its there. A Fortified character can be death attacked if you roll a 20 on your Bluff or Profession (Rules Lawyer) check against your DM. Or you could be a smart assassin and choose your targets (and when you go after the targets) wisely. Craftyness is not something put down in hard numbers on your character sheet. Use it. It's the one true limitless resource. Okay, now as for the Sniper's Shot/Sniper's Eyes. Here's where we do Orwellean mental acrobatics (no psionics jokes, please. <- Obvious troll for psionics jokes). We're not going to use the strict interpretation. Sniper's eyes lifts two restrictions 'The ability to make a ranged sneak attack at a range of up to 60 feet rather than 30 feet' 'The ability to make a death attack with a ranged weapon rather than just a melee weapon. The target must be within 60 feet.' Sneak attack previously COULD be used at a distance, however this spell enhances that distance to a certain new number. Death attack is a specialized sneak attack that was previously limited by being melee only but is now doable at a range. Sniper's Eye simultaneously sets the limits of both attacks at the same range. Why? Because any other number would be odd. If Death Attack were greater then it would imply a sneak attack, or at least a sneak attack that is also a Death attack. A greater Sneak Attack would be arbitrary, and after all, when D&D decides to be arbitrary, its usually explaind why (Wizards can't cast in armor due to Arcane Spell Failure). Sniper's Shot gives you infinite Sneak Attack Range (At least, it does if you can see all and hit all... which is pretty standard at epic levels), the only thing standing in the way of the Death Attack is that line of 'the target must be within 60 feet'. So, right there we run afoul. It FEELS weird. It's not our business as optimizers to determine what the writers were thinking ('Wait, does he mean 'death attacks can be made at a range, as the limits of sneak attack permits', or 'Unless something makes specific reference to ammend this statement, death attacks made at a range due to this spell cannot exceed a distance of 60 feet'?) but with something that so obviously goes together like these two spells, one does question the intent of the writers. I am personally in favor of it, and in a predominatly Assassin/Mercenary based campagin, I would allow it in my campaign. It's hardly game breaking (until you got someone with a diviner, infinite distance, and a phase arrow). Even if you disagree, the tactic has its uses, even though they are more limited. Besides, a regular sniper's shot with a 5d6 sneak attack will take out low level marks. Not everyone who needs to be killed is lvl 20. Now if you read all that... thanks, actually. Agree or not, I do appreciate it. Like most things on the board, I hope to be somewhat entertaining and insightful. Or at least one. Or failing that, a mild diversion. And as a side note, yes: for 'anyjob' the Wizard 20 is probably the best. Maybe a Dweomercheater with a well stocked Spellbook would do just as well. But for simplicities sake, Wizard 20 does win out. And Pure Damage dealers ARE a very reliable way to kill things. But just because damage is the universal leveler (save for a few pyrohydra/half-brass dragon/troll things) doesn't mean you can't prey on a target's particular weaknesses. And also, just a personal opinion: While optimization is the name of the board, always seek to do things with style, because if you're going to do something right, you might as well do it with style. Hulking Hurler 'Assassin' with a ninja mask!
Fugazi 02-27-05, 11:41 AM	Get an incorporeal creature with the ability to take possession of others. Etc.
Battousai 02-27-05, 03:04 PM	I think the Ghost Faced Killer is the funniest assassin PrC out there : nothing like killing an enemy with his own fears while the weapons simply can't hurt you. A Rogue/Ninja Spy(OA) / Ghost Faced Killer could be a not-so-bad start. I don't have my books right now , but this would give an huge boost to some key skills.
lostone 02-28-05, 07:03 AM	Get an incorporeal creature with the ability to take possession of others.Examples? I didn't think possession was a big theme in D&D.
Lilt 02-28-05, 07:47 AM	Examples? I didn't think possession was a big theme in D&D.The Fiend of Posession PrC from the Fiend Folio would do the trick nicely. It can be taken by any outsider with the evil subtype and over the course of the PrC lets you posess a variety of objects and beings. It's extremely powerful too as it can be taken at 4th level (before LA) by certain beings. (the abilities granted are awesome too)
Zerolight 03-01-05, 02:53 AM	Fortification does not negate the occurence of a sneak attack, merely the damage related consequences of a sneak attack. If you give them this, Death attack, hamstring and arterial strike should work as effect but just not there direct sneak attack added damage. This is pretty much the way we play, it doesnt hurt balance and there are still plenty ( I think to many) ways to be immune to sneak attacks. I love Fiendish or even exalted assassins as NPCs. They can really teach a PC where they may have went wrong with some blasphemy or some such. I think the ghost face killer has a great feel to it but was surprized it wasnt more like the guy on the old Kung Fu movie. -edit- I Think the movie was call Mystery of Chess boxing-
PhaedrusXY 03-01-05, 03:12 AM	Examples? I didn't think possession was a big theme in D&D.A wizard with Magic Jar and Ethereal Jaunt, or a wizard Shapechanged into a Ghost. (Not sure if the latter one is legal.) Psions can probably do this stuff too I'm sure, but I'm not as familiar with psionics.
PhaedrusXY 01-31-07, 02:49 PM	bump
FaerellG 01-31-07, 02:53 PM	Solid wizard or sorc. Improved Invis Lesser Spell Matrix: Dispell Magic Teleport in. Save or Die spell with Delay spell for 5 rounds (Metamagic) Save or Die spell with Delay spell for 4 rounds (Metamagic) Save or Die spell with Delay spell for 3 rounds (Metamagic) Save or Die spell with Delay spell for 2 rounds (Metamagic) Save or Die spell with Delay spell for 1 rounds (Metamagic) Use Spell Matrix to hit them with Dispell (aiming to take out any saving throw buffs or Death Ward. Teleport out. Laugh as they make 5 Save or Die checks.
jameswilliamogle 01-31-07, 03:05 PM	Psion Remote Viewing + Crisis of Breath, augmented Crystal Shards, Crystalize, etc.
Bonzai 02-01-07, 11:07 AM	My favorite assasin was actually a Bard/Zhent Spy. His trade name was The Dirge, and had a cover identity as a reknowned bard. He was invited to perform at a lords manor (his target), and gave a wonderful performance. He was charming, handsome, and witty. He was a hit with everyone, and ended up seducing one of the female guests. Leaving her in her room, in a magicly induced sleep, he disguised himself as a guard (ring of the chameleon), and made his way to the Lords chamber. There he charmed the guards into killing the Lord for him. Then he raised the alarm, and snuck back into his lady friends room. So, when they tried to question the body, it says the guards killed him. When they discover that the guards had been enspelled, all they can identify is a non-existant guard. They question the Bard, he has an air tight alibi, he was with the lady, and close personal friend of the Lord, all night. Besides, who would think that such a respected bard, who was so charming and witty, could possibly be a murderer. Hehe, why sneak in when you can be invited to walk in through the front door!
Desyth 02-01-07, 11:56 AM	Thats awesome!
Timespike 02-09-07, 12:51 AM	Human Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5 Pick 'em off with a spellwarped, energy admixed fireball, cone of cold, or what-have-you.
The Jake 02-09-07, 01:54 AM	Most characters on the Character Optimization board are cripple by antimagic fields, since most of them include magic items that are critical to the build in some way or another, and assume the character will be able to buy said item in the game (since many of the builds can't create magic items at all). A hulking hurler isn't :P PS: I found it funny. Yes even I am laughing.