Assassins, Little Used poorly Optimized [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassins, Little Used poorly Optimized [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragonsblud
10-21-06, 12:57 AM I've been going through the optimized classes and I've found that few use the Assassin in their builds. I know I know evil is a hard thing to bypass but for optimizing sake let us consider what a level dip or 2 would give us

1st Level: Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells
Death attack theoretically a dc of 15 at first assassin level with an 18 intelligence.
Poison use. Who hasn't wanted to poison the tip of their sword or the spikes on their armor. And what better way to get rid of wizards and sorcerers the smarty pants guys with low fortitudes. And access to spells.

I am not saying that the Assassin is worth taking 10 levels in or even 5 but a couple levels of this class would go well towards many killer builds and this has been overlooked I suspect mainly because of the evil requirement. Alignments are mutable though and I hope this will start a new trend in killer optimization. Throw a little poison on the tip of your greatsword and that Treant or Frost Giant you were fighting just may find itself in trouble.

Why have I started this thread? Because I'm playing a rogue moving into assassin and I have found no optimization for the assassin.
PhoenixInferno
10-21-06, 01:11 AM Wooo...DC 15 Fort save.

There's a reason why Assassin gets no respect here. Its spell list and Hide in Plain Sight are much more appealing than Death Attack and Poison Use.
zarzak
10-21-06, 01:28 AM At lower levels it can be very effective (I've thrown it at my players and it worked), if you set up the proper situation. But, it doesn't scale so well ...
Blade2718
10-21-06, 01:55 AM Wooo...DC 15 Fort save.

There's a reason why Assassin gets no respect here. Its spell list and Hide in Plain Sight are much more appealing than Death Attack and Poison Use.Well, if you use a non Fort poison...

Oh, wait you were talking about Death Attack. Yeah, its like a hoover.
Particle_Man
10-21-06, 02:58 AM There are so many ways to be immune to sneak attack (needed for death attack).

There are so many creatures immune to death attack anyhow.

There are so many classes/creatures with good base fort saves, and often the creatures have high cons.
Invoker47
10-21-06, 07:43 AM I've found that the high point of the assassin is that he/she should be attacking when opponents are incapacitated or unconscious. Performing a coup de grace on a target while they are sleeping with a good weapon, with poison added to it, pretty much ensures death. With a good rogue/assassin build the victim ends up having to save against the poison, save against the death attack, take a large amount of damage (critical hit + sneak attack damage is a lot of a high level rogue with a good weapon) and survive, potentially have to save vs. massive damage and finally save against the coup de grace. Given all of these saves are fortitude, but even someone with a high fort save is likely to fail at least one of those.

Also, the neat little thing about the coup de grace is that the DC to survive it is based on the damage done in the attack. So if you have a rogue sneak attack someone with a coup de grace, that save DC could easily jump into the 40s or even higher.

Of course, all of this can be done with just a rogue, except for the death attack. But I think assassin adds rp value, and some of the abilities are handy, like the spells and poison use (i had an assassin character die due an unfortunate self poisoning event, while in the room with his victim, who woke up the next morning with a dead assassin on his floor)
Wizu
10-21-06, 07:48 AM Of course, all of this can be done with just a rogue, except for the death attack. But I think assassin adds rp value, and some of the abilities are handy, like the spells and poison use (i had an assassin character die due an unfortunate self poisoning event, while in the room with his victim, who woke up the next morning with a dead assassin on his floor)

You just made my day!

Edit; ex-paladin 1/blackguard 10/assasin 9!
X-Codes
10-21-06, 08:16 AM I have to say that assassins are freakin' awesome. The only problem I have with them is that they get Sleep as a 1st level spell... when they have at least 6 HD already...

Just seems a little dumb.
Dragonsblud
10-21-06, 10:30 PM Well lets look at the fortitude thing for a 8th level Sorceror or wizard. Lets give them a whole 14 con so +2 +2 fort total of plus 4 to their save roll. So the assassin at 6th level studies his target etc etc moves in for the kill pokes the bloke with his poisoned dagger for 4d6 sneak attack damage and using Death attack the Sorc/Wizard has to roll an 11 or more add in a poison( a great list can be found in the Book of Vile darkness) he will also have to make a second fort save from a DC of 11- 26. I kept the price of the poisons below 1000 for cost effectiveness But there are poisons around 150 - 200 that have a DC of 16 - 18. I agree completely that this class is not even worth the spell progression and if your gonna go all the way to 8th level for Hide n plain sight your not optimizing. But every Rogue after 5th level should look into the possibilities of poison use and Death attack.
Balthanon
10-21-06, 10:41 PM Spellcasters also have access to spells and equipment that increase their saves-- a cloak/vest of resistance is usually my second or third purchase for any character. A +2 resistance bonus and an amulet of health +2 (8,000 gold worth of equipment) boost your spellcaster to +7... which means an 8 to over come the death attack. With prestige classes with good Fort saves and other means of boosting saves, you probably drop that down to rolling a 5 or more to survive the death attack.

PhoenixInferno was actually saying that the spells and hide in plain sight are more worthwhile than death attack and poison usage, for that reason. Many of the tough foes that you fight will have saves fairly far in excess of the DCs that you can pull off, if only because of the extra hit dice they will likely have.
rilem
10-21-06, 10:42 PM Actually, about the only thing I like about Assassin is the spell list.

The Death Attack is useful against an assassin's usual targets — weak NPCs like merchants and nobles. Against an opponent of equal or greater CR, forget it.

A wizard of 8th level is going to have a resistance bonus of some sort -- either an item or a Greater Resistance (24 hour duration) spell. They're smart, they know that poisons and fort-save stuff hurt them, they're going to take countermeasures. They'll probably have concealment up if possible, negating the entire sneak attack.

Yes, if you manage to get the jump on the wizard in his skivvies before he's prepped his spells for the day (which is what an assassin should be doing, really), then fine. In a regular adventure, it's very, very limiting.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-21-06, 10:50 PM My favorite use of the assassin: to qualify for arcane trickster with warlock.
Book
10-21-06, 11:08 PM The quote below is mine (from another recent assassin thread). For a more martial oriented assassin, the following build might work and places left emphasis on the cruddy Death Attack. Yet it is there if you need it.

Wrangling skill allocations could be brutal - but at least INT is getting lots of combo-work in the build.

The new INT Synergy class on the block might have some applicability to an Assassin archetype. That being the Warblade.

Rogue 3 / Warblade 5 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 9

You get BAB +16, +9d6 SA (2d6 comes from an additional Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance feat), all that Death Strike nonsense, 4th level spells, and 12 Initiator Levels.

You'd want to acquire your Warblade levels in the mid-to-late levels to ensure you get the juiciest high level maneuvers.

And due to skill rank tightness, the Abler Learner feat may be warranted for certain character build needs. It's not like Warblade has Fighter skills - 4 ranks per level ain't bad.
the_narrator
10-22-06, 03:50 AM Book: Looks interesting, might give it a try sometime.

RE: Assassins- Look at it this way. An Assassin's spell list is was better than a Rogue's.
Chimaera2000
10-22-06, 08:33 AM I might be wrong, but couldn't you apply the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) to your Death Attack? That would help out with making sure that enemies stay down.
FriendlyFrog
10-22-06, 09:23 AM I might be wrong, but couldn't you apply the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) to your Death Attack? That would help out with making sure that enemies stay down.
Yes you could, but it still doesn't help that much.

The problem with Assassins is that you can get a lot better death attack if you don't even use the PrC. Rogue 1/Archivist 4/Blackflame zealot 5/Strifeleader 10 by Xeraph, with a base death attack DC of 29 + Int + misc. modifiers (Ability focus, Assassin's dagger, etc.), is one of the best.
Dragonsblud
10-22-06, 01:27 PM I'm trying not to be convinced here but its hard. Unfortunately I think I am. I'm still gonna say for alot of builds a 1 level dip into assassin would be an asset. However the Hide in plain sight and Spell list are not worth it. 8 levels to get hide in plain sight and a sub par spell list. Might as well go into ranger levels to get a spell list or one of the many other classes that have them. To the arguements though There are so many ways to be immune to sneak attack (needed for death attack), well why be a rogue then. I'm officially removing this to the Prestige classes forum. I suspect I should have placed this there first.
PhaedrusXY
10-22-06, 04:00 PM Assassin isn't a terrible PrC. The spell list is decent. It includes Wraith Strike, arguably one of the most overpowered spells in the game for a melee character. If you stack on things that give you some Int synergy, and other classes that stack for Death Attack DCs, you can get pretty nasty. The Shadlowlord Assassin in my sig is based around a "classic" assassin build that's been floating around on these boards for quite some time in one form or another.
fnord
10-22-06, 04:50 PM I'm still gonna say for alot of builds a 1 level dip into assassin would be an asset.
It's good for one kind of build, the sneak attack rogue, where it gets 1d6 sneak attack in one level at the cost of 8 skill points. Death Attack is pointless with one level, Poison Use is always pointless. Access to wands is kind of useful, maybe. But a one level dip doesn't really get much.
PhoenixInferno
10-22-06, 05:00 PM Death Attack is only useful for the first 1 or 2 levels after you get it (6th-8th or so). After that, the DCs is just too low to be worth mentioning unless you go all all-out on optimizing it.
catharz
10-22-06, 05:40 PM Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Assassin 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 6.
helicopter
10-22-06, 06:20 PM I never looked at the EPIC Assassin levels. While Assassin is weak-to-moderate for most pre-epic builds, how does it fare at levels 21+ ??
Cherubaddon
10-22-06, 06:34 PM I once DMed Red Hand of Doom. For one Assassin. Yes. One. Without any scaling. In the end, he was able (and willing, for that matter) to death attack a dragon. Feats, equipment and spells made him really hard. He was the best character I've ever seen when I DMed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragonsblud 10-21-06, 12:57 AM	I've been going through the optimized classes and I've found that few use the Assassin in their builds. I know I know evil is a hard thing to bypass but for optimizing sake let us consider what a level dip or 2 would give us 1st Level: Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells Death attack theoretically a dc of 15 at first assassin level with an 18 intelligence. Poison use. Who hasn't wanted to poison the tip of their sword or the spikes on their armor. And what better way to get rid of wizards and sorcerers the smarty pants guys with low fortitudes. And access to spells. I am not saying that the Assassin is worth taking 10 levels in or even 5 but a couple levels of this class would go well towards many killer builds and this has been overlooked I suspect mainly because of the evil requirement. Alignments are mutable though and I hope this will start a new trend in killer optimization. Throw a little poison on the tip of your greatsword and that Treant or Frost Giant you were fighting just may find itself in trouble. Why have I started this thread? Because I'm playing a rogue moving into assassin and I have found no optimization for the assassin.
PhoenixInferno 10-21-06, 01:11 AM	Wooo...DC 15 Fort save. There's a reason why Assassin gets no respect here. Its spell list and Hide in Plain Sight are much more appealing than Death Attack and Poison Use.
zarzak 10-21-06, 01:28 AM	At lower levels it can be very effective (I've thrown it at my players and it worked), if you set up the proper situation. But, it doesn't scale so well ...
Blade2718 10-21-06, 01:55 AM	Wooo...DC 15 Fort save. There's a reason why Assassin gets no respect here. Its spell list and Hide in Plain Sight are much more appealing than Death Attack and Poison Use.Well, if you use a non Fort poison... Oh, wait you were talking about Death Attack. Yeah, its like a hoover.
Particle_Man 10-21-06, 02:58 AM	There are so many ways to be immune to sneak attack (needed for death attack). There are so many creatures immune to death attack anyhow. There are so many classes/creatures with good base fort saves, and often the creatures have high cons.
Invoker47 10-21-06, 07:43 AM	I've found that the high point of the assassin is that he/she should be attacking when opponents are incapacitated or unconscious. Performing a coup de grace on a target while they are sleeping with a good weapon, with poison added to it, pretty much ensures death. With a good rogue/assassin build the victim ends up having to save against the poison, save against the death attack, take a large amount of damage (critical hit + sneak attack damage is a lot of a high level rogue with a good weapon) and survive, potentially have to save vs. massive damage and finally save against the coup de grace. Given all of these saves are fortitude, but even someone with a high fort save is likely to fail at least one of those. Also, the neat little thing about the coup de grace is that the DC to survive it is based on the damage done in the attack. So if you have a rogue sneak attack someone with a coup de grace, that save DC could easily jump into the 40s or even higher. Of course, all of this can be done with just a rogue, except for the death attack. But I think assassin adds rp value, and some of the abilities are handy, like the spells and poison use (i had an assassin character die due an unfortunate self poisoning event, while in the room with his victim, who woke up the next morning with a dead assassin on his floor)
Wizu 10-21-06, 07:48 AM	Of course, all of this can be done with just a rogue, except for the death attack. But I think assassin adds rp value, and some of the abilities are handy, like the spells and poison use (i had an assassin character die due an unfortunate self poisoning event, while in the room with his victim, who woke up the next morning with a dead assassin on his floor) You just made my day! Edit; ex-paladin 1/blackguard 10/assasin 9!
X-Codes 10-21-06, 08:16 AM	I have to say that assassins are freakin' awesome. The only problem I have with them is that they get Sleep as a 1st level spell... when they have at least 6 HD already... Just seems a little dumb.
Dragonsblud 10-21-06, 10:30 PM	Well lets look at the fortitude thing for a 8th level Sorceror or wizard. Lets give them a whole 14 con so +2 +2 fort total of plus 4 to their save roll. So the assassin at 6th level studies his target etc etc moves in for the kill pokes the bloke with his poisoned dagger for 4d6 sneak attack damage and using Death attack the Sorc/Wizard has to roll an 11 or more add in a poison( a great list can be found in the Book of Vile darkness) he will also have to make a second fort save from a DC of 11- 26. I kept the price of the poisons below 1000 for cost effectiveness But there are poisons around 150 - 200 that have a DC of 16 - 18. I agree completely that this class is not even worth the spell progression and if your gonna go all the way to 8th level for Hide n plain sight your not optimizing. But every Rogue after 5th level should look into the possibilities of poison use and Death attack.
Balthanon 10-21-06, 10:41 PM	Spellcasters also have access to spells and equipment that increase their saves-- a cloak/vest of resistance is usually my second or third purchase for any character. A +2 resistance bonus and an amulet of health +2 (8,000 gold worth of equipment) boost your spellcaster to +7... which means an 8 to over come the death attack. With prestige classes with good Fort saves and other means of boosting saves, you probably drop that down to rolling a 5 or more to survive the death attack. PhoenixInferno was actually saying that the spells and hide in plain sight are more worthwhile than death attack and poison usage, for that reason. Many of the tough foes that you fight will have saves fairly far in excess of the DCs that you can pull off, if only because of the extra hit dice they will likely have.
rilem 10-21-06, 10:42 PM	Actually, about the only thing I like about Assassin is the spell list. The Death Attack is useful against an assassin's usual targets — weak NPCs like merchants and nobles. Against an opponent of equal or greater CR, forget it. A wizard of 8th level is going to have a resistance bonus of some sort -- either an item or a Greater Resistance (24 hour duration) spell. They're smart, they know that poisons and fort-save stuff hurt them, they're going to take countermeasures. They'll probably have concealment up if possible, negating the entire sneak attack. Yes, if you manage to get the jump on the wizard in his skivvies before he's prepped his spells for the day (which is what an assassin should be doing, really), then fine. In a regular adventure, it's very, very limiting.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-21-06, 10:50 PM	My favorite use of the assassin: to qualify for arcane trickster with warlock.
Book 10-21-06, 11:08 PM	The quote below is mine (from another recent assassin thread). For a more martial oriented assassin, the following build might work and places left emphasis on the cruddy Death Attack. Yet it is there if you need it. Wrangling skill allocations could be brutal - but at least INT is getting lots of combo-work in the build. The new INT Synergy class on the block might have some applicability to an Assassin archetype. That being the Warblade. Rogue 3 / Warblade 5 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 9 You get BAB +16, +9d6 SA (2d6 comes from an additional Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance feat), all that Death Strike nonsense, 4th level spells, and 12 Initiator Levels. You'd want to acquire your Warblade levels in the mid-to-late levels to ensure you get the juiciest high level maneuvers. And due to skill rank tightness, the Abler Learner feat may be warranted for certain character build needs. It's not like Warblade has Fighter skills - 4 ranks per level ain't bad.
the_narrator 10-22-06, 03:50 AM	Book: Looks interesting, might give it a try sometime. RE: Assassins- Look at it this way. An Assassin's spell list is was better than a Rogue's.
Chimaera2000 10-22-06, 08:33 AM	I might be wrong, but couldn't you apply the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) to your Death Attack? That would help out with making sure that enemies stay down.
FriendlyFrog 10-22-06, 09:23 AM	I might be wrong, but couldn't you apply the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) to your Death Attack? That would help out with making sure that enemies stay down. Yes you could, but it still doesn't help that much. The problem with Assassins is that you can get a lot better death attack if you don't even use the PrC. Rogue 1/Archivist 4/Blackflame zealot 5/Strifeleader 10 by Xeraph, with a base death attack DC of 29 + Int + misc. modifiers (Ability focus, Assassin's dagger, etc.), is one of the best.
Dragonsblud 10-22-06, 01:27 PM	I'm trying not to be convinced here but its hard. Unfortunately I think I am. I'm still gonna say for alot of builds a 1 level dip into assassin would be an asset. However the Hide in plain sight and Spell list are not worth it. 8 levels to get hide in plain sight and a sub par spell list. Might as well go into ranger levels to get a spell list or one of the many other classes that have them. To the arguements though There are so many ways to be immune to sneak attack (needed for death attack), well why be a rogue then. I'm officially removing this to the Prestige classes forum. I suspect I should have placed this there first.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-06, 04:00 PM	Assassin isn't a terrible PrC. The spell list is decent. It includes Wraith Strike, arguably one of the most overpowered spells in the game for a melee character. If you stack on things that give you some Int synergy, and other classes that stack for Death Attack DCs, you can get pretty nasty. The Shadlowlord Assassin in my sig is based around a "classic" assassin build that's been floating around on these boards for quite some time in one form or another.
fnord 10-22-06, 04:50 PM	I'm still gonna say for alot of builds a 1 level dip into assassin would be an asset. It's good for one kind of build, the sneak attack rogue, where it gets 1d6 sneak attack in one level at the cost of 8 skill points. Death Attack is pointless with one level, Poison Use is always pointless. Access to wands is kind of useful, maybe. But a one level dip doesn't really get much.
PhoenixInferno 10-22-06, 05:00 PM	Death Attack is only useful for the first 1 or 2 levels after you get it (6th-8th or so). After that, the DCs is just too low to be worth mentioning unless you go all all-out on optimizing it.
catharz 10-22-06, 05:40 PM	Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Assassin 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 6.
helicopter 10-22-06, 06:20 PM	I never looked at the EPIC Assassin levels. While Assassin is weak-to-moderate for most pre-epic builds, how does it fare at levels 21+ ??
Cherubaddon 10-22-06, 06:34 PM	I once DMed Red Hand of Doom. For one Assassin. Yes. One. Without any scaling. In the end, he was able (and willing, for that matter) to death attack a dragon. Feats, equipment and spells made him really hard. He was the best character I've ever seen when I DMed.