Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JustinE12 07-05-05, 11:21 AM	My stats are a little crazy. 3,20,3,20,12,20. This character is human and has no LA. What should I do, im looking for a build that will allow me to have some staying power, and still be effective offensively. I have my own idea, but i would love some help. Looking at a leadership sorceror, or perhaps a bard.
Gol 07-05-05, 11:28 AM	uh... You mean you actually have to use a score of 3? And not 1, but 2? :confused: Your DM is nuts. :looloo:
dedicated 07-05-05, 11:33 AM	uh... You mean you actually have to use a score of 3? And not 1, but 2? Your DM is nuts. That's right put one in intelligence, then you have the intelligence of a lizard
Matt Neuman 07-05-05, 11:52 AM	Are those stats in order or can you assign them however you'd like?
Gol 07-05-05, 11:55 AM	So, perhaps something more constructive. Here's the way I see it. You have two 3s to use. The other stats are completely irrelevant when you have to use two 3s. Let's examine our options. Str - possible, if you're a mage. You only need to carry a robe. That's good, because that's all you'll be able to carry. However, one Ray of Enfeeblement knocks you out for the rest of the encounter. If you're not a mage, putting a 3 here is retarded. Dex - again, possible if you're a caster. You won't be ranged touching anything, and your AC and reflex saves are going to blow. If you're a tank, same about your AC and reflex. Unacceptably low. Also very vulnerable to anything that zaps Dex - 1d4 will probably knock you out for the encounter. Con - most likely results in 1 HP per level, and a horrible fort save. Con should never be below a 10 or 12. Ever. Int - 1 skill pt per level isn't too bad (Fighters with an 8 Int suffer this), but the fact that you have the same intelligence as a horse should say something. Obviously, not an option for a wizard or skill monkey. Again, 1d4 of ability damage puts you comatose till restored. Wis - the will save penalty alone makes it a poor choice for melees, and an obvious no-go for a Cleric or Druid. A possibility for Wizards. Cha - well, sadly enough, this is a decent option. Until you take 1d4 ability damage, where only a 1 keeps you non-comatose. This takes a bit of Role Playing skill, though, and when played properly is more annoying than fun for the rest of the party. Functional place for a 3, but it cuts into everybody else's fun. Also, putting a 3 here completely rules out Sorcerer and Bard. So, in my opinion, it's time to reroll or beg the DM for better stats. Three scores of 20 don't make up for 2 scores of 3. You mentioned you wanted to play a Sorc or Bard. Ok, you can probably eek by with putting your 3s in Str and Wis. You will never carry a weapon. A level 1 spell will usually take you out. You will never carry anything other than a robe and spell component pouch. Your will save (despite having a class with a good will save) will be horrible, as will your naturally low Fort save, relying only on your Con bonus.
Zemyla 07-05-05, 11:55 AM	Druid 5. Str 3 Dex 3 Con 20 Int 20 Wis 20 Cha 12. :{
Gol 07-05-05, 11:57 AM	Are those stats in order or can you assign them however you'd like?I hadn't even thought of that. If you're stuck with a 3 in Str and Con, you're not going to last past the first encounter. One arrow from an enemy archer kills you. You'd need a d6 on your hit die to even be capable of getting more than 1 HP per level.
Matt Neuman 07-05-05, 12:18 PM	Yup, it's definitely going to put a damper on things if they are already placed.
rilem 07-05-05, 12:34 PM	Thirded. If those stats are fixed in place (i.e. 3 in Con) you've got to become undead (and incorporeal) ASAP. Losing your Con will effectively give you +4 HP per level. Perhaps the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) ghost class? Put the 20s in Dex and Cha, obviously. There might be something else in Libris Mortis, but I don't have that book.
guarnasco 07-05-05, 01:51 PM	the 2 options already stated: Druid str 3 and dex 3, con 12 is really powerful and fun to play, probably some sort of a well recovered (con 12 is still good) incident occurred in the first childhood left him crippled to the edge of thetraparesis... multiple fractures at arms and legs? dropping from a cliff? wildshape can save your life! my advice is also go for minion of isis/set/etc. as a template, with wild shape (specific form) at will u can stay hawk/crocodile/snake/ecc. and still puruing any class u like for a low ECL of 1 or 2 Any incorporeal undead will be really cool to play and the 2 "3" put in str and con will be irrilevant Again u can simply be the classical brute with 3 in cha and int, choose a class with 2 skill points per leve since u gain at least 1 skill point irregardly any malus per level.
ninjarabbit 07-05-05, 02:07 PM	Hexblade str 20 dex 12 con 20 int 3 wis 3 cha 20 You can dump wis score due to the strong will save and arcane resistance and int can be dumped too. Throw in a level of cleric so you can take the divine might and battlecaster feats for more offense and defense.
Khazra Reborn 07-05-05, 02:12 PM	Hmmm, put a 2 in str & 2 in cha,12 con,20 int & dex. Go feat rogue (UA)2/swashbuckler3/champion of correal lanthian. Skills & good combat potential. However, it requires race elf so you would have to modifslightly although i would allow it for a character who was very devoted to the god, say if they had true believer. Its worth asking considering your restricions. Oh, & everything you own is going to need to be made out of mithral & you'll need an item of +6 str ASAP so you dont need to buy a pack mule..
cvazi 07-05-05, 02:23 PM	keep the two "3"'s in physical stats and become a shape changer of some kind. A druid continually in wildshape is the easiest solution to your problem. taking two levels in Warshaper will give you a permanent +4 to str and con, so you will not be so fragile in your natural form. If you can move the order of your stats, I would probably dump the 3's into str and dex- and go spell caster all the way.
pyro_cat 07-05-05, 03:05 PM	there are monsters that rely on neither strength nor constitution, take a look at templates in Savage Species spectral umbral wraith granted, these have huge level adjustments, but it may be a possibility
rilem 07-05-05, 03:22 PM	Ah, found the Libris Mortis thing I was thinking of. Necropolitan — become undead for some XP costs and some money. No level adjustment, though. Necropolitan Swashbuckler3/BardX? Dex to Hit, Int. to damage. Throw in Snowflake Wardance — Undead are immune to fatigue, right?
Khazra Reborn 07-05-05, 04:01 PM	This character is human and has no LA. is that negotiable, otherwise many of these builds are impossible....
Baneslayer 07-05-05, 05:21 PM	Bonk the Simple Str 20, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 3 Barbarian 1 Iron Will, Extra Rage (3/day, 10 rounds) Pyrric the Frail Str 3, Dex 20, Con 3, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 20 Sorcerer 1 Draconic Heritage, Toughness Shambling Roger Str 3, Dex 3, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20 Druid 1 - From 1 - 5 uses spells to buff Animal Companion or heal and otherwise hides behind a Tower Shield that the party carries around for his protection. At 6 takes Extra-Wildshape to be in Wild Form continuously.
allenchan 07-05-05, 06:27 PM	Bonk got hit on the head as a kid with a brick. :) But I'd totally play him.
Baneslayer 07-05-05, 07:20 PM	Bonk is one of those Guided Missile characters. "Bonk! Kill!" "Raarrrrgh!" Doesn't need more than 5 levels of Barb - Imp. Uncanny Dodge, 4 Rages/day for 10 rounds - so take a ton of Fighter levels and get Combat Feats: Power Attack Cleave Mighty Cleave Imp. Bull Rush Leap Attack (spend his single skill point per level on Jump) Shock Trooper Imp Sunder Combat Brute
journeyman777 07-05-05, 07:24 PM	I'm new to Char Ops, but how did a human with no LA (so templates are mostly out) get three 20's? 3d6 gives you a max value of 18 to start with. (Far as I know, point buy retained that limit) Even at lvl 20 you couldn't get three 18's to 20's without wish or class/template abilities. So how did you get them already?
Otto the Bugbear 07-05-05, 07:43 PM	Totally play Bonk, and RP him to the extreme. Head for Frenzied Berserker. Then talk a party member (OOC of course) into being a red wizard, so you can take Thayan Knight. This protects the party from you eating them alive. The other option is to just put the 3 in Con and hope to die. Perhaps then you can get some "normal" stats. If your DM gives you the same set again, play another character with a 3 Con. Then another when that one dies. Then another, etc., etc., etc. The best idea is to talk to the DM and ask him why he's doing this. Try to talk him out of it. Maybe he has a good reason, but I'm guessing he's just being a pinhead. Cheers Otto :D
PhoenixInferno 07-05-05, 07:45 PM	The original poster never claimed to have used point buy or the 3d6 method, so his stats could have come from anywhere - most likely a DM thing.
PhoenixInferno 07-05-05, 07:45 PM	double post
journeyman777 07-05-05, 08:27 PM	The original poster never claimed to have used point buy or the 3d6 method, so his stats could have come from anywhere - most likely a DM thing. Guess I should have figured something strange was up just from the fact that he had two 3's.
allenchan 07-05-05, 08:57 PM	I'm new to Char Ops, but how did a human with no LA (so templates are mostly out) get three 20's? 3d6 gives you a max value of 18 to start with. (Far as I know, point buy retained that limit) Even at lvl 20 you couldn't get three 18's to 20's without wish or class/template abilities. So how did you get them already? Simple. Totally out of their mind DM's. aka "stupid house rules". Cheers.
guarnasco 07-05-05, 08:58 PM	I'm new to Char Ops, but how did a human with no LA (so templates are mostly out) get three 20's? 3d6 gives you a max value of 18 to start with. (Far as I know, point buy retained that limit) Even at lvl 20 you couldn't get three 18's to 20's without wish or class/template abilities. So how did you get them already? actually it is odd but quite possible: 57(!) point buy or rolled: str 9 (3) (cost 1), dex 9 (3) (cost 1), CON 18 (12)(cost 16), INT 17 (20) (cost 13), WIS 17 (20) (cost 13), CHA 17 (20) (cost 13), AND THE HUMAN IS VENERABLE (-6 TO ALL PHISICAL, +3 TO ALL MENTAL stats) let's say he is Foul Old Ron, the urban druid, a crippled, ancient beggar, self appointed guardian of the Lower Ward.
JustinE12 07-06-05, 12:55 AM	Sorry I didnt Elaborate. Thats the order. Were at lvl 12. Looking at undead templates as soon as physically possible. Considering some form of vampire. We use it a 'only' a five la. P.S. I just get them the stats.... at lvl 1, age 20, in exchange for seeing if i can prove to the group that playing a character with extremely weak (read 3) stats is possible.
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 01:00 AM	Level 12 eh? If you have access to Sandstorm, go take Walker in the Waste. A 3rd level Cleric with the Thirst or Sand Domain (can't remember which one) can qualify. At 10th, you become a Dry Lich. It's like a Lich but better in every way, except that it gets Cha to HP in the same way living creatures get Con to HP. Should be nice with that 20 of yours.
Squirrelloid 07-06-05, 01:09 AM	Level 12 eh? If you have access to Sandstorm, go take Walker in the Waste. A 3rd level Cleric with the Thirst or Sand Domain (can't remember which one) can qualify. At 10th, you become a Dry Lich. It's like a Lich but better in every way, except that it gets Cha to HP in the same way living creatures get Con to HP. Should be nice with that 20 of yours. You mean except for that 12 wis? The best option is probably a necropolitan wizard or sorceror or bard with those stats. That should make the str and con irrelevant. Servant Horde is your friend, for carrying your gear!
gabrion 07-06-05, 01:10 AM	P.S. I just get them the stats.... at lvl 1, age 20, in exchange for seeing if i can prove to the group that playing a character with extremely weak (read 3) stats is possible. Kinda crazy to begin with, but if this is the reason, then why are the stats stuck in that order? Could you at least switch one of the 20s into WIS? If so I would suggest a VoP Druid. You can't carry anything most of the time so VoP seems like a good choice for this character.
AlienFromBeyond 07-06-05, 01:15 AM	You mean except for that 12 wis? The best option is probably a necropolitan wizard or sorceror or bard with those stats. That should make the str and con irrelevant. Servant Horde is your friend, for carrying your gear! The wis can be improved by items and level increases (he gets 3 of them since he's 12th). What else can he do? I suppose he could be a Necroplitan. That 3 Strength is pretty crippling though. Perhaps Ghost would be a good idea. There's got a to be a way to make it so the thing that keeps you as a Ghost can't be reversed. I remember reading a long time ago of a Ghost who become one because he could n't be beaten. So if he was destroyed, he would still come back.
rilem 07-06-05, 07:55 AM	Vampire's no good -- you want to lug your coffin around while adventuring? Also, you'll only have 7HD, which offsets the HP "gain" you'll receive from losing your Con. Ghost has a similar HD problem, but at least they're very, very difficult to kill. Lich is definitely an option (shame about the dry lich). But Necropolitan spellcaster sounds best.
cvazi 07-06-05, 08:49 AM	there is also the death knight (Dragonlance CS, MM2?) option- I believe he is LA+4.
Gol 07-06-05, 09:28 AM	Time to have yourself re-incarnated. All new physical stats, keep your mental stats.
GroopaKoopa 07-06-05, 01:59 PM	Time to have yourself re-incarnated. All new physical stats, keep your mental stats. That'll really show them that playing with two 3:s is playable. :rolleyes:
rilem 07-06-05, 02:13 PM	AlienFromBeyond's got a good point, actually — put all your stat increases into Wisdom and an +2 item and you'll have full spellcasting ability. I don't know Sandstorm and the prereqs for walker in the waste, but if you can go the divine persistent-metamagic that could offset your low Strength through persistent Divine Power). That's not as much of an option with Necropolitan, obviously, but a 3 in Strength isn't killer here. Undead are immune to ability drain and to ability damage to their physical scores, so it's not getting any lower. You could go with a shrink-item strategy and carry around tiny equipment. How about a Necropolitan Artificer10? (You lose a level from Necropolitan) BAB +7, 10d12 HD, Great Skills, Trapfinding, Fourth level Infusions. Persistent Metamagic Spell Trigger (on a wand of divine power) will make you strong enough to carry all the wands you'll need to blast the crap out of everything in sight. You'll be a great trapfinder, as you're immune or resistant to most of the sorts of trap dangers. Feats (include bonus from artificer): Nymph’s Kiss, Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Extraordinary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Twin Spell, Craft Wand, Wand Mastery, Persistent Spell, Skill Focus (UMD), Craft Rod
PonTelon 07-06-05, 06:21 PM	If your DM allows Ghostwalk you can be a ghost with no LA. Just die, which isn't hard with a Con of 3. You cannot leave the town of Manifest, but heck! Who cares!? You're a ghost!!!1111oneoneoneoneoneoneoneonethre eoneone *ahem* Sorry. That is just too evil for my tastes. I'm an evil DM, but I'm not THAT evil.
EvilDuck 07-06-05, 06:36 PM	Tell your DM to give you some playable stats or you'll be forced seduce his mom and/or dad. He'll never live that down...
Lafing Cat 07-06-05, 08:53 PM	Walker in the Waste is a pretty good idea, you *can* get into it as an arcane caster if you're willing to burn 2-3 feats and a level in a divine casting class. A Wiz 3/Clr 1 with Arcane Disciple Thirst, Alternative source spell (Dragon 325), and Sand as one of your Clerical Domains qualifies for the class. Takes all of your feats(since you need another for Heat Endurance), and costs you a caster level but it would let you use your 20 Int instead of your 12 Wis.
PhaedrusXY 07-06-05, 09:47 PM	You could play a normal wizard and use Contingency to Polymorph you into something with a good Con and Str score "if anyone begins to attack you". The necropolitan is a good idea, too. Take Leadership and have your cohort be a variant Necromancer specialist from Unearthed Arcana (the one that boosts undead created by them) with the Corpse Crafter feat (and whatever other undead boosting feats from Libris Mortis you want). Have your cohort conduct the ritual to turn you into a Necropolitan within a Desecrated area with a permanent evil shrine. Voila, d12 hit dice and +6 hit points per hit die. ;)
IceFractal 07-06-05, 11:50 PM	Necropolitan Warmage! Then the Con is gone, and your only real problem is the Strength, which isn't much of a problem if someone else carries your stuff (though you'll probably have to forfeit "Armored Casting", unless you can get the weight down really low). The Dex will be good for hitting with rays and such, the Int will add to your spell damage, and the Cha will make you a pretty powerful caster. By level 12, you should have enough gold to easily afford a Belt of Strength +3, which will leave you still very puny but strong enough to carry spell components and clothes at least. Take Arcane Disciple or go into Rainbow Servant or Sand Shaper if you want more versatility than the Warmage gives you. There you go, problem solved.
EvilDuck 07-07-05, 10:26 AM	Or you could get freaky with his mom, then rub it in his face eternally. You could even make his head explode!
LordKiwi 07-07-05, 11:09 AM	As others have said take a 3 in con and become undead, the easiest way to do that is, of course, Necropolitan. The other thing to do is take 20 in Charisma, take a class with Divine Grace and slap the remaining 3 in Wisdom. Then all you need worry about is being able to sense things. Try a Paladin/Sorcerer Gish, something like... Human Necropolitan Paladin 2 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / Spell Sword 3 / Eldritch Knight X Paladin Necropolitan is a bit of a contradiction but you could say you where cursed by an evil cult and are seeking redemption for your unholy existance. Maybe if your God grants you redemption they'll give you a good Con score while they're at it :p. Str 20, Dex 20, Con -, Int 12, Wis 3, Cha 20 ...are going to make you a pretty might warrior and quite a powerful Sorcerer. Use one of your level stat bonuses to take that Wisdom to 4. Lord Kiwi,
rilem 07-07-05, 12:28 PM	We're not suggesting he puts the 3 in Con — he can't move his stats around. So he's stuck with a 3 in Strength, too, which puts a major crimp in the Necropolitan Gish. Though a Hexblade2/Swash3/Bard7/KnightPhantom7/IajutsuMaster1 or Hexblade2/Swash3/Bard7/SublimeChord1/KnightPhantom7/ could work -- you probably couldn't wear armor unless your strength is really improved, which makes the knight phantom less than ideal. But the flavor of the Phantom Necopolitan is nice.