Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 02:06 AM	Alright, here's the deal. I'm playing a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer in one of my current campaigns. The DM has already houseruled that if he should reach 20th level, he -will- advance into a lich instead of staying Necropolitan. Here is the outline I have for him. Human Necropolitan Swarm-Shifter Dread Necromancer 12 Str 17 (23 Belt) Dex 17 (23 Gloves) Con - (Undead) Int 18 Wis 17 Cha 21 (27 Cloak) Wearing a Shadow Mithral Chain Shirt +1, Ring of Wizardy I, Ring of Wizardry II, Cloak of Charisma +6, Belt of Strength +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, and robes so that he can disguise himself in civilized territory. So, here's the deal. If I can get my Wisdom up 2 more points, and take the time to spellstitch myself, What 1st-6th level spells should I have as spell-like abilities? Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy are the only viable spells. I see no-where that stipulates the spells need to be on my spell list, or that they even have to be arcane spells, so... If I am wrong on that point, can someone please point it out to me? The party seems to be dealing with all kinds of enemies, so knowing types of encounters won't help much with selection... [edit] Flipping through the PHB... Heal is a 6th level conjuration spell. An arcane spellcaster with the ability to cast | Cure Light Wounds 4x/day | Cure Moderate Wounds 4x/day | Cure Serious Wounds 2x/day | Cure Critical Wounds 2x/day | Wall of Force 2x/day | Heal 1x/day | could be HIGHLY valuable...
K 06-09-06, 02:11 AM	The Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30) Ther's some suggested awesome spells on page 12 of the discussion, but the opening document has some good advice on playing a Dread Necromancer. Have fun. If you can get it through, here are some suggestions to clean up the necromancy rules in many ways: Tome of Necromancy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=632562)
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 03:53 AM	[edit] Flipping through the PHB... Heal is a 6th level conjuration spell. An arcane spellcaster with the ability to cast | Cure Light Wounds 4x/day | Cure Moderate Wounds 4x/day | Cure Serious Wounds 2x/day | Cure Critical Wounds 2x/day | Wall of Force 2x/day | Heal 1x/day | could be HIGHLY valuable... This line of thinking may have answered my own question. Undead Arcane Spellcaster that can cast Cure's and Heal... freaky scary.
yargon 06-09-06, 04:09 AM	the cures and heals will be useless to you as your undead, and take damage from curing spells!
K 06-09-06, 04:22 AM	What do you care if you can cast heal once per day? You can already cure yourself and your whole undead army an unlimited amount every day. The ability to heal a non-undead creature by a hundred and twenty points once per day isn't even really worth picking up off the ground. It's a spell-like ability, it could be something awesome like animate dread warrior.
yargon 06-09-06, 05:52 AM	Some suggestions (just from the SRD) 6th level: Ceate undead, Contingency, Planar Binding/Ally 5th level: Teleport, Slay Living, Unhallow 4th level: Divine Power, Holy Sword (for fun!) 3rd level: Animate Dead, Poison 2nd level: Continual Flame, Desecrate, Scorching Ray 1st level: Divine Favor, Chill Touch, Magic Missile I've tried to concentrate on spells with material componants, xp costs, foci or spells with longer casting time, or benefit to undead. and as stated these are just from the SRD, i'm sure there are better with the other books. hope it helps
aod318 06-09-06, 09:19 AM	Perhaps I am wrong, but Spellstitched and Swarm-Shifter both have a level adjustment of none, meaning they are not available to player characters. Why so many odd numbered attributes?
Caelic 06-09-06, 10:16 AM	Spellstitched is not a suitable template for a PC, according to the rules. Some DMs choose to change this rule; hopefully, in so doing, they're not simply assigning it a +0 LA, which would be wildly out of whack.
BloodSpill 06-09-06, 10:31 AM	Considering the actual GP and XP COST of making yourself spellstiched, you'd be mad to deny it to anyone that actually spent the effort to become spellstiched. That's 500XP per point of Wisdom, at 19 Wisdom for full effect; 8500XP. (and it's late so my sentence is repeating words with little variation) Take the 6th level spell hardening. Use it on your phylactery. Don't forget to cast vile death on yourself as soon as you get it. Haha.
Caelic 06-09-06, 10:35 AM	Now do the math and figure out how many experience points all those powers would cost you as magic items--and then factor in the fact that, unlike magic items, these can't be stolen or taken away. I don't think following the rules as written, in this case, is particularly "mad."
neilthrun 06-09-06, 11:08 AM	Yeah, I've always seen Spellstiched as a +0 LA template because of the XP and Gold costs. Its more of an item creation feat than a template. Swarm Shifter is +1 LA. Once 100 years have passed, get your DM to let you roll for the evolved undead template.
K 06-09-06, 11:34 AM	There actually isn't a rule that player characters cannot have races or templates without a listed Level Adjustment. Otherwise humans wouldn't be available as player characters. In any case, making magic items that cast a 6th level spell, two 5th level spells, 2 4th level spells, two 3rd level spells, four 2nd level spells, and four 1st level spells each once per day would set you back 3,888 XP. Spellstitching is, of course, better than that, which is nominally why it costs more. The thing is, spending XP for power, whether you're making magic items or applying templates, isn't balanced at all. Your level is lower than it would have been if you hadn't done that, which means that you gain more XP. In the long run, spending XP on any power increasing project costs you nothing and gives you power. It's like storing levels in the bank - for a period you don't have them, but eventually you get them back and you've accumulated interest (in this case in the form of extra super powers or magic items, which D&D thoughtfully gives you up front on spec). So spellstitching isn't balanced. That's why people do it. But it is supposed to work that way. It's like playing a Tiefling, only the other direction. The character isn't fair, but it does function as intended.
Caelic 06-09-06, 01:00 PM	Spurious logic, K...or at least, a bad example. First, Spellstitched does have a listed level adjustment; that adjustment is "--". Second, I'd say that the text that says races with a "--" adjustment for level are not suitable for player characters does, indeed, count as a rule. Third, I think we can be reasonably sure that if they saw the need to include "Human" in the monster manual, it would be listed as a +0 race, just as Elf and Dwarf are. This is another case where, if a DM wishes to make his own rules, that's fine, but both RAW and RAI are clear. Races with "--" for a level adjustment are not equivalent to LA +0 and are not considered suitable for player character use.
K 06-09-06, 01:14 PM	So you're saying that the statement that some creatures aren't available as player characters, but can be a familiar, and are listed with a dash followed by the words "improved familiar" means that templates with a dash are automatically disqualified as PCs? Because I'm looking right at the LA description on page 311 of the Monster Manual. The thing where you claim that a dash means that it's nplayable - that's not actually a rule. That's your interpretation. A common interpretation no doubt, but not actually a rule. The rules as intended are clearly that you can spellstitch yourself. There's a listed cost for doing just that! And the rules as written don't forbid it, despite what you'd have us believe.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 02:06 PM	the cures and heals will be useless to you as your undead, and take damage from curing spells! The rest of the party is approximately 7-8 other people, and they are all living. We only have 1 real cleric, and a 1 half of a half-a**ed cleric. As well, the fact is, the Dread Necromancer already gets the inflict line of spells, harm, and the ability to deal negative energy damage as a touch attack. I have unlimited healing out of combat. My party does not have that luxiary. Why so many odd numbered attributes? This character already exists, and I rolled his stats using 4d6. The 17's are actual 17's, and the Charisma is at an odd stat-boost level (18+3 from levels). What can I say? Our group is old fashioned, we tend not to use "Point-Buy" systems. Don't forget to cast vile death on yourself as soon as you get it. Haha. Already planned on that one. ;) Once 100 years have passed, get your DM to let you roll for the evolved undead template. Once again, planned on it. ;) I don't really have an undead army, just 1 Athach skeleton, and 1 Mountain Troll skeleton. I keep the Athach curled up in a portable hole, and let the Mountain Troll hold the enemies off of me, and our wizardess. Our main tank is some crazy amalgamation of classes, feats, and items. He is a gargantuan sized weretiger with high dexterity and strength, combined with Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. The DM concentrates on killing him so badly, I don't even worry about piddly damage coming my way, and if I do, I have my Shadow in reserve inside of myself, right along with my Ghostly Visage. However, if he goes down in a fight, some of the fights are so heavy that the rest of the party might not survive the fight.
Caelic 06-09-06, 02:50 PM	So you're saying that the statement that some creatures aren't available as player characters, but can be a familiar, and are listed with a dash followed by the words "improved familiar" means that templates with a dash are automatically disqualified as PCs? Because I'm looking right at the LA description on page 311 of the Monster Manual. The thing where you claim that a dash means that it's nplayable - that's not actually a rule. That's your interpretation. A common interpretation no doubt, but not actually a rule. The same way a level adjustment followed by (Cohort) means that the race is intended for cohorts, but not for PCs, yes. Now: if you're going to debate my assertions, please stick to my actual assertions. I didn't say something with a level adjustment of "--" was unplayable. I said it was not considered suitable as a PC. I'll have to wait until I get home to find it, but the wording is there. Ah. No I won't. Here it is, right in the Monster Manual II update--which would seem like a reasonable source to consult, seeing as it's the source for the Spellstitched. A level adjustment is specified here for every monster that could be an appropriate Player Character or cohort in a D&D campaign below 20th level. This statement is logically equivalent to: If a level adjustment is NOT specified for a monster, it is not an appropriate Player Character or cohort in a D&D campaign below 20th level. All A (appropriate player characters) are B (monsters with level adjustments.) Therefore, no non-B (monsters without level adjustments) are A (appropriate player characters.) I suppose you could take issue with the fact that I used the word 'suitable' rather than 'appropriate,' but that would really be an exercise in petty semantic hair-splitting.
K 06-09-06, 03:22 PM	This statement is logically equivalent to: If a level adjustment is NOT specified for a monster, it is not an appropriate Player Character or cohort in a D&D campaign below 20th level. That's wonderful, but Spellstitched actually has Level Adjustment specified, that specification is "-". Other MM2 monsters haven't even gotten that much. The rules say specifically that an Undead creature who is a spellcaster can spellstitch himself. If you are both a spellcaster and undead, you can spellstitch yourself. The advancement of a spellstitched creature is "as base creature", it's applicable in-game to creatures that fit a list of criteria that PCs can match, and the rules about the dash that you keep talking about are not rules. they aren't written down in the 3.5 core materials nor are they present in the Complete Arcane for which the Spellstitched template made its 3.5 update. Face it Caelic, you got nothintg. The intention, and the rules as written, are very clear. I have no idea why you keep belaboring this point, unless you really want to undermine your own credibility.
Caelic 06-09-06, 03:42 PM	That's wonderful, but Spellstitched actually has Level Adjustment specified, that specification is "-". Other MM2 monsters haven't even gotten that much. I like the flip-flop here. A few posts ago, you were the one arguing that the Spellstitched didn't have "a listed level adjustment." Now, you're arguing that "--" is a level adjustment. So...I'm curious. A level adjustment of "--" means...what? What is your assertion? That it's equivalent to a level adjustment of "+0?" The advancement of a spellstitched creature is "as base creature", ...which has nothing to do with LA or ECL... it's applicable in-game to creatures that fit a list of criteria that PCs can match, ...as are MANY templates completely unsuitable for PC use... and the rules about the dash that you keep talking about are not rules. they aren't written down in the 3.5 core materials nor are they present in the Complete Arcane for which the Spellstitched template made its 3.5 update. Wow...so now if a 3.5 rule isn't in the core materials, it's not a rule? But let's turn this around, since you seem most convinced that you know the intent of the rules. I ask again: what value does a level adjustment of "--" have? (To the OP, I apologize for the tangent; if you'd prefer to see this moved to another thread, I'll understand. Your DM has allowed Spellstitched, and that's perfectly fine. May I suggest Awaken Undead as an excellent and thematic spell choice?)
K 06-09-06, 03:49 PM	But let's turn this around, since you seem most convinced that you know the intent of the rules. I ask again: what value does a level adjustment of "--" have? The modifier for a nonability is +0. I don't know how it could ever get more clear. A "-" is treated like a +0 modifier if it ever becomes important. Spellstitched is a template that player characters can apply to themselves in-game, at which point it becomes important what the modifier of the dash is. That modifier is therefore +0. Do I have to draw you a diagram?
Caelic 06-09-06, 04:01 PM	I don't know how it could ever get more clear. A "-" is treated like a +0 modifier if it ever becomes important. Spellstitched is a template that player characters can apply to themselves in-game, at which point it becomes important what the modifier of the dash is. That modifier is therefore +0. Do I have to draw you a diagram? Ah. Thank you. Now: we know that dragons can be PCs; there are level adjustments for them. Looking at the chart, I see that a juvenile black dragon has an ECL of 17...13 for hit dice and 4 for LA. And, apparently, a young adult black dragon has an ECL of...16. 16 for hit dice, and 0 for LA, since it has an LA of...you guessed it..."--". Likewise, a juvenile blue dragon has a lower ECL than a young blue dragon. A juvenile green dragon and an adult green dragon have the exact same ECL, as do a young and young adult red dragon. Interesting. Is this the point where you tell me, "No, no, no, THOSE "--" level adjustments are a different KIND of "--"? Oh, and with regards to: The modifier for a nonability is +0. I love the way you quoted a rule that refers only to ability scores as if it were some sort of general rule that had any sort of applicability to level adjustment. Nice touch. Selectively quoting inapplicable rules out-of-context certainly helps build a case.
Xaktsaroth 06-09-06, 04:24 PM	Actually, this is a very weird situation for me, I can see points to both sides of the arguement, and I half agree with both of you. The Spellstitched template has no LA listed, however, this can quite safety be assumed as to '--', which normally means that it is inappropiate for players, however, the front of the template lists a very clear and an un-arguable method for becoming spell-stitched, even going as far as saying that a spellcaster with a high enough wisdom can spell-stitch themselves. So we have to completely two opposed ideas(LA -- = no players!) and (Here's how you spell-stitch yourself and how much it'll cost you). They fact they list that the cost is 1000gps + 500 XP per Wis score makes me very confused, as when did monsters concern themselves with xp? Don't most DM's use CR? So, I've come to the this conclusion: No, the template isn't suitable for most players, however, if your players wants to be one and you allow it, here's what it'll cost him. Remember that the spell-stitched creature is undead, not normally a PC race, this could be as much oversight as anything else.
Caelic 06-09-06, 04:29 PM	I have absolutely no problem with that position, Xak; it's the one I'd likely use myself. Of course, the DM can allow the template, and there's nothing wrong with that. I personally think it's overpowered at +0, is all...and I certainly think that there's no justification for claiming that there's a general rule saying that a level adjustment of "--" means the critter's good to go at a LA of +0.
Valanthe 06-09-06, 04:34 PM	Actually, this is a very weird situation for me, I can see points to both sides of the arguement, and I half agree with both of you. The Spellstitched template has no LA listed, however, this can quite safety be assumed as to '--', which normally means that it is inappropiate for players, however, the front of the template lists a very clear and an un-arguable method for becoming spell-stitched, even going as far as saying that a spellcaster with a high enough wisdom can spell-stitch themselves. So we have to completely two opposed ideas(LA -- = no players!) and (Here's how you spell-stitch yourself and how much it'll cost you). They fact they list that the cost is 1000gps + 500 XP per Wis score makes me very confused, as when did monsters concern themselves with xp? Don't most DM's use CR? So, I've come to the this conclusion: No, the template isn't suitable for most players, however, if your players wants to be one and you allow it, here's what it'll cost him. Remember that the spell-stitched creature is undead, not normally a PC race, this could be as much oversight as anything else. I think the fact that there's an XP cost on the template speaks volumes about intent at the very least. How many DM's can say they've kept track of NPC experience? I certainly haven't.
Caelic 06-09-06, 04:41 PM	Valanthe, There's also an experience cost on Awaken Undead, but that doesn't mean it's meant to be used on PCs. Lots of PCs make undead, and it's entirely likely that a PC necromancer might want to spellstitch one of the undead he makes; thus, an experience cost would be both warranted and necessary even if the Powers That Be decided that the Spellstitched absolutely, positively, could never be used as a PC template. Like I said: I don't have a problem with DMs allowing this for PCs at all. I do think a +0 LA is unreasonably low, and I certainly think it's silly to attempt to claim that a +0 LA is RAW.
tseb 06-09-06, 04:43 PM	Um, guys, Spellstitched was most recently printed in the Complete Arcane, so don't the rules state to use that source for it? Since it's most recent? In the Complete Arcane version, the Spellstitched template has no entry listed for Level Adjustment. The spellstitched template, like all other templates, only changes what it says it does about the creature it's applied to, so the spellstitched creature would therefore use the level adjustment of the base creature. So, at the time the Complete Arcane was written, the wight still had a level adjustment of --, and the sample spellstitched wight's Level Adjustment of -- reflects this. There's a Libris Mortis monster progression for them that implies they have a +4 LA now, so if they copied the spellstitched template in the Libris Mortis, that wight's Level Adjustment would remain +4. So, the Spellstitched template has no associated level adjustment. No doubt for the simple reason that you have to pay A LOT of XP for the spell-like abilities you get. It's still awfully damn good for the XP, but lots of things PCs can already do are awfully damn good for the XP.
Xaktsaroth 06-09-06, 04:46 PM	I have absolutely no problem with that position, Xak; it's the one I'd likely use myself. Of course, the DM can allow the template, and there's nothing wrong with that. I personally think it's overpowered at +0, is all...and I certainly think that there's no justification for claiming that there's a general rule saying that a level adjustment of "--" means the critter's good to go at a LA of +0. Yes, I would agree that having an LA of -- doesn't always mean that the LA is +0. However, at least in this specific case, I DO believe that the LA is +0, for the following reasons: 1) The xp, while temporary is going to smack you down about 2 levels, and you'll be behind the party and CR of the monsters for 2 levels, those are going to be difficult to survive. 2) If you qualified by Necropolitan, you'll be behind by even more xp. 3) The lowest LA undead creature, outside of Necropolitan, is the Ghoul(at +3). 4) As an undead, you have crap for hps. I think when you add all 4 of those together, adding any more loses(or LA) is going to cause the player to enter into an unplayable condition, which is just as bad. So that's my reasoning. :)
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 04:49 PM	(To the OP, I apologize for the tangent; if you'd prefer to see this moved to another thread, I'll understand. Your DM has allowed Spellstitched, and that's perfectly fine. May I suggest Awaken Undead as an excellent and thematic spell choice?) The free expression of idea is completely fine with me, and it's how (I believe) we as a people grow. I think it would be a bad idea to use awaken undead as one of the spell options, because I believe I would rarely need to awaken very many undead at all. As it stands, I am in a party with a paladin, and he can barely tolerate me, only because he's under direct decree from the queen to work with me on the jobs that need done. If not for that, I'm pretty sure he would turn on me in the blink of an eye. No need to **** him off, seeing as how I'm not evil, and at this point in time, I have no problems with him.
EldonG 06-09-06, 04:54 PM	Just for the record, the MM2 came out before 3.5...I wouldn't expect all of them to have the LA there. I'm not sure how there could be disagreement on the '-' meaning 'not for a PC'...they use it regularly for unintelligent creatures. That said, I'd allow an undead PC (assuming I allowed undead PCs...I don't...) to spellstitch himself...likely for the cost of 1 LA. Not by RAW...by RAW, it isn't applicable. Why? I honestly dunno. It seems viable enough. Incidentally, as to the 'why' the XP cost is there, a PC can *definitely* spellstitch their undead followers...
Caelic 06-09-06, 04:54 PM	It's a reasonable argument, tseb. I'd be more inclined to accept that than the whole "'--' is the same as +0" nonsense. I think it's still up in the air, though, because there's no explicit contradiction. The MMII 3.5 update says the Spellstitched's LA is "--." Complete Arcane says nothing at all on the issue. (Side note to Eldon: when I refer to the MMII, I'm referring to the 3.5 update, which is available on the main Wizards' site. You're right, arguing the straight 3.0 MMII wouldn't be kosher.) Now: templates with a LA of +0 say +0...as in the case of the Amphibious template. Templates with a positive LA give that LA...as in the case of the vampire. Why, if the template's LA is supposed to be +0, doesn't it say +0?
K 06-09-06, 04:58 PM	A Level Adjustment of "-" simply means "no modifier". That includes things that are not playable at all (and thus have no modifier), and things which when applied to a character do not result in a level adjustment modifier (such as spellstitching). If there was a level adjustment listed for a symbiont or a graft, it would also be "-". Applying it to something non-playable doesn't make it playable, and applying it to something that is playable doesn't make it playable at a different level.
Caelic 06-09-06, 04:58 PM	Rass, How cheesy do you want to be? There are some absolutely lovely eighth and ninth level spells that can be had at a much lower level from other classes. Hindsight seems like it would be a very thematic one for an ancient undead.
EldonG 06-09-06, 04:59 PM	The free expression of idea is completely fine with me, and it's how (I believe) we as a people grow. I think it would be a bad idea to use awaken undead as one of the spell options, because I believe I would rarely need to awaken very many undead at all. As it stands, I am in a party with a paladin, and he can barely tolerate me, only because he's under direct decree from the queen to work with me on the jobs that need done. If not for that, I'm pretty sure he would turn on me in the blink of an eye. No need to **** him off, seeing as how I'm not evil, and at this point in time, I have no problems with him. YIPES! That's some party dynamics ya got there. Does he worship a sun god, by any chance? ;)
EldonG 06-09-06, 05:01 PM	Oh, yeah...on topic...stitching Animate Dead could be fun...definitely, if you do animate 'em, look at Arcane Thesis: Animate Dead.
EldonG 06-09-06, 05:02 PM	A Level Adjustment of "-" simply means "no modifier". That includes things that are not playable at all (and thus have no modifier), and things which when applied to a character do not result in a level adjustment modifier (such as spellstitching). If there was a level adjustment listed for a symbiont or a graft, it would also be "-". Applying it to something non-playable doesn't make it playable, and applying it to something that is playable doesn't make it playable at a different level. Could you show me that in the rules?
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:03 PM	A Level Adjustment of "-" simply means "no modifier". That includes things that are not playable at all (and thus have no modifier), and things which when applied to a character do not result in a level adjustment modifier (such as spellstitching). ...because, of course, they couldn't possibly use "+0" to indicate that when it's applied to a character it doesn't result in a level adjustment. Oh, wait--they do, don't they?
tseb 06-09-06, 05:04 PM	It's a reasonable argument, tseb. I'd be more inclined to accept that than the whole "'--' is the same as +0" nonsense. I think it's still up in the air, though, because there's no explicit contradiction. The MMII 3.5 update says the Spellstitched's LA is "--." Complete Arcane says nothing at all on the issue. Now: templates with a LA of +0 say +0...as in the case of the Amphibious template. Templates with a positive LA give that LA...as in the case of the vampire. Why, if the template's LA is supposed to be +0, doesn't it say +0? I can explain that with a story. I dunno how accurate it is, but it fits the facts. One day, the editor of the Complete Arcane noticed that the +0 LA line of the spellstitched template dropped onto a whole new page that also ended a chapter.* In his drug-addled delirium he cut the line, knowing that it was mechanically superfluous (due to the rules for templates as I've already mentioned) and would save a whole page. Then he had a 3 martini lunch and punched a hobo. He lived happily ever after (the editor, not the hobo). The End. * This is true, check the Complete Arcane yourself; an LA line would've been on the next page, which would have been totally blank save for that.
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:08 PM	It's a possibility, tseb, sure...but, you have to admit, it's also pretty darned speculative. (Except the part about the hobo. I'm quite certain that happened.) Again, I have no problem with the notion of playing a Spellstitched. I have a problem with the claim that a level adjustment of +0 for it is RAW.
K 06-09-06, 05:12 PM	Rass, How cheesy do you want to be? There are some absolutely lovely eighth and ninth level spells that can be had at a much lower level from other classes. Hindsight seems like it would be a very thematic one for an ancient undead. Is Hindsight suddenly from the school of Evocation, Conjuration, or Necromancy now? Last I checked it was Divination and off limits. Not to mention the fact that if a spell appears on the Sor/Wiz list and any other list, you have to use the Sor/Wiz version. I know you aren't even trying to read the rules when you make your decrees, but could you at least read the earlier posts in this thread? :rolleyes: ...because, of course, they couldn't possibly use "+0" to indicate that when it's applied to a character it doesn't result in a level adjustment. Actually, that would indicate that it resulted in a level adjustment of +0. That would be needlessly confusing in regards to becoming, for example, a Spellstitched Mummy. Ruls for adding Levelk Adjustments don't exist, so applying the stacking rules is a perfectly valid thing to do in the RAW. An effect that doesn't change Level Adjustment would be just as confusing if it was written as "+0" as it is written as "-". Could you show me that in the rules? Well, since rules on what is and is not playable, and rules for what a "-" does and does not mean don't exist, no I can't. The rules on Level Adjustments don't mention what a Level Adjustment of dash means. At all. That's the whole point of this conversation. What I am doing is interpretting the meaning of the fact that a spellstitching has no listed level adjustment, and a beholder graft implantation has no listed level adjustment, and both are given a specific cost for their paplication onto player characters.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 05:16 PM	Rass, How cheesy do you want to be? There are some absolutely lovely eighth and ninth level spells that can be had at a much lower level from other classes. Hindsight seems like it would be a very thematic one for an ancient undead. The problem with other classes is that it delays my 'Lichdom' even more than it needs to be. a pure 20th level Dread Necromancer ascends to Lichdom automatically. Putting in classes on top of whatever else he is gonna have is gonna push it back just that much further.
EldonG 06-09-06, 05:17 PM	Just a thought...but...I've never seen an LA on any graft. Is it possible that that's because it isn't a creature type, or a template? Oh...logic! Like...hmmm...unintelligent creatures...or those with under a 3 Int can't have class levels...and...hmmm...for those they use...er...I forget...could it be... '-'?
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:27 PM	I know you aren't even trying to read the rules when you make your decrees, but could you at least read the earlier posts in this thread? :rolleyes: My, you get cranky when you don't get your way, don't you? I was a bit distracted, I admit that. It's pretty funny to hear someone who quotes rules about ability scores as if they applied to level adjustment lecturing me on reading the rules, though. :) As for "decrees," pot meet kettle. Well, since rules on what is and is not playable, and rules for what a "-" does and does not mean don't exist, no I can't. The rules on Level Adjustments don't mention what a Level Adjustment of dash means. At all. That's the whole point of this conversation. Of course, that's based on your decree that a level adjustment of "--" isn't the same thing as "no level adjustment." If we accept that premise, then every single creature in the Monster Manual is suitable for use as a PC, since the level adjustment rules state that level adjustment is included "in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or cohorts." And, y'know something? Every single monster in there has either a positive level adjustment, a +0 level adjustment, or a level adjustment of "--." So: if we accept your premise, we must conclude that: 1. There is no such thing as a monster with no level adjustment. 2. Since there's no such thing as a monster with no level adjustment, and since only monsters suitable for use as PCs or cohorts have level adjustment, then all monsters are suitable for use as PCs or cohorts. 3. "--" is equivalent to +0, but only sometimes. Other times it's not. We're supposed to guess when, since they didn't bother to specify. What I am doing is interpretting the meaning of the fact that a spellstitching has no listed level adjustment, and a beholder graft implantation has no listed level adjustment, and both are given a specific cost for their paplication onto player characters. It's nice to hear you admit that it's an interpretation. If you'd said that at the beginning, we'd have had no problems.
EldonG 06-09-06, 05:32 PM	Oh, man...ya know, a Succubus has a friggin' +6...that's ECL 13...but...wait...oh WOW! A Balor has '-'! ECL 20! ROCK ON!
Balkazar 06-09-06, 05:34 PM	My buddy here has gotten so much attention I may be jealous. I stopped actually reading after EVERYONE stated the same things over again then contridicting themselves atleast 2 or 3x. My buddy wants to know if its possible and what spells to take, not read how spell stitched has a LA or not. You guys seem to be going WAY off on what he has asked. Hes asking what spells would make good with being a spellstitched because he wants to use the spells thats stitched into himself to heal the non undead in the party, thats pretty much everyone whos a fleshy which in our party is everyone is ALIVE except for HIM who just happens to be undead. Now as for the LA for a spell stitched its LA +1, why not try reading Complete arcane and actually 'read' the template in the back of the book. And stop contridicting yourselves sheeesh. Dont mean to sound cruel to everyone because everyone has there own opinions, which is why this world is what it is, its because everyone has there own way of doing things and they have there own beliefs and rules and such. I ask lots of people what they would do in my position for a template or some such or a build. But you guys have gone off topic JUST! a tad :).
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:37 PM	Well, since rules on what is and is not playable, and rules for what a "-" does and does not mean don't exist, no I can't. Hmm. Interesting. As in the revised Monster Manual, level adjustments are not included for creatures whose level adjustment would make them epic-level characters, as well as for creatures with an intelligence score of 2 or less and others deemed inappropriate for use as PCs or cohorts. Now, I know K doesn't much like the MMII 3.5 update, but I thought this passage was relevant because it specifically affirms that it's the same way in the 3.5 Monster Manual...the one where everything that doesn't have a positive or zero LA has a LA of "--." Let's follow this logically. I'll use one specific type of creature from those listed for my proof, for simplicity's sake. 1. According to the MMII update--a valid 3.5 rules source--the 3.5 MM does not include level adjustments for creatures with an intelligence score of 2 or less. 2. The 3.5 MM lists a "--" as the level adjustment for every creature with an intelligence score of 2 or less. 3. Therefore, "--" must be synonymous with "level adjustment not included." 4. Therefore, creatures deemed inappropriate for use as PCs have a level adjustment of "--."
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:40 PM	Balkazar, If Rass had objected--even a tiny bit--to the discussion, I would have stopped immediately. I did apologize to him and let him know this; he said he didn't mind. Now as for the LA for a spell stitched its LA +1, why not try reading Complete arcane and actually 'read' the template in the back of the book. If you can show me where it says this, it would certainly simplify things. I see no level adjustment. I see a Challenge Rating of +1, but Challenge Rating is not Level Adjustment.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 05:49 PM	Balkazar, If Rass had objected--even a tiny bit--to the discussion, I would have stopped immediately. I did apologize to him and let him know this; he said he didn't mind. If you can show me where it says this, it would certainly simplify things. I see no level adjustment. I see a Challenge Rating of +1, but Challenge Rating is not Level Adjustment. There is no listed L.A. in C.A., you are correct.
Caelic 06-09-06, 05:50 PM	Getting back to topic...in the vague-but-probably-unfounded hope that we're done with this silliness...here are some possibilities from the PHB2. Level 5: Bigby's Clenched Fist (DB5,) Polar Ray (DB5.) Nothing special, but normally much higher level spells. Good bang for the buck. Level 3: Regroup. Nice to be able to call your undead spawn (or Paladin) to you. From the Spell Compendium, perhaps Revive Undead, if it wouldn't aggravate the Paladin too much? Greater Dimension Door is also nice to have.
EldonG 06-09-06, 05:54 PM	Apologies. As for myself, I can only say, in contribution to the request about spells - as an undead, I'd really have to love my party to carry healing spells, when they hurt me, and there are damage spells that would help. I think I'd look more into the utility spells...maybe buffing would be good - if you get into the combat, you could really use the buffing, and spells of level 1-6 are good for that.
K 06-09-06, 05:56 PM	It's pretty funny to hear someone who quotes rules about ability scores as if they applied to level adjustment lecturing me on reading the rules, though. Read those rules again. They are for non-abilities in general. What follows afterwards is a specific rundown of what happens when you lack specifically ability scores. But the rule that a nonability is a +0 modifier if ever comes up is the general rules before the discussion about ability scores in particular. Of course, that's based on your decree that a level adjustment of "--" isn't the same thing as "no level adjustment." Actually, I'm saying that "no level adjustment" is unfortunately used interchangeably for "not playable and therefore no level adjustment" and "does not change your level adjustment and therefore no level adjustment". Both of those are, in common English, rendered as "no level adjustment". And unfortunately the game designers felt the need to write both the same way in rules-speak. Now, I know K doesn't much like the MMII 3.5 update I don't care about it one way or another in this context because the Spellsticthed Template has a later source - in The Complete Arcane. Therefore regardless of what the MMII 3.5 Update says or doesn't say on this issue, the Complete Arcane listing takes precedence. Period. You might as well be arguing from the errata to the Incantrix in Magic of Faerun - the current version is one in the Player's Guide to Faerun, so it's completely no germaine. I haven't even checked to see if you're quoting it correctly, because it doesn't make any difference. Sure, it's a 3.5 source, but it's not the latest 3.5 source, so it doesn't matter. 2. The 3.5 MM lists a "--" as the level adjustment for every creature with an intelligence score of 2 or less. 3. Therefore, "--" must be synonymous with "level adjustment not included." Gosh! Did you know that the 3.5 MM also has a "Special Qualities" line for all those creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or less? Therefore having "Special Qualities" must be synonymous with "unplayable". What did you slip into your Cheerios this morning? All As are B does not mean All Bs are A. You made an argument centering around logical equivalency earlier, so one would assume that you knew what it meant and how it worked. Obviously that assumption is painfully wrong. Oh, man...ya know, a Succubus has a friggin' +6...that's ECL 13...but...wait...oh WOW! A Balor has '-'! ECL 20! ROCK ON! Go ahead. Balors are conjurable with 9th and even 8th level spells. The chohort of a 20th level character can cast 9th level spells. So if you personally play a Balor, you really are equivalent to the summoned monsters of a cohort of one of the other player characters. Which means that your character, despite all the awesome stuff he can do, is underpowered by definition. Hes asking what spells would make good with being a spellstitched because he wants to use the spells thats stitched into himself to heal the non undead in the party, And I reiterate: That's a waste of your time. If the other party members want you to heal them, they can jolly well take Tomb Tainted Soul like everyone else. If for some reason they won't do that, use your planar binding abilities to float some Energons around. They don't care and can't do anything about it when you force them to heal your party members. Using up spellstitching slots for healing is a generally bad deal. If you still insist upon doing it, take major creation as one of your spells and then create gallons and gallons of Healing Salve as a standard action. As a necromancer, you have more important things to do in combat than run around healing your little friends when they get themselves hurt.
EldonG 06-09-06, 06:02 PM	I'll agree with K on the Major Creation...that could be sweet... But really, I was thinking melee with the Balor...with spells to boot, and with an astounding Str...and more and more and so much more! LOL! Spiked chain! Make note, a Balor hasn't spen't jack for equipment...mmmmmm... You MUST be kidding!
K 06-09-06, 06:02 PM	Level 5: Bigby's Clenched Fist (DB5,) Polar Ray (DB5.) Nothing special, but normally much higher level spells. Good bang for the buck. Seriously, don't you have anything better to do than dribble your ignorance all over your shirt? That's illegal. We've already pointed out that it's illegal on this thread. Stop bringing it up. Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. The original quote is even in the discussion in the Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30) that people were directed to in the very first post. I know you can't or won't read the rules, but could you please read the other posts before replying? Please?
tseb 06-09-06, 06:07 PM	I'd have suggested Knight's Move, but it is incomprehensibly a transmutation spell, despite being in the Conjuration subschool of teleportation. I suppose this to be an error (that drunken editor's fault, no doubt) and suggest Knight's Move as a decent, if wierdly limited, teleportation spell. What since it's a swift action to use it and all. If you absolutely insist on picking up conjuration (healing) spells with the template, I suggest you aim for the most bang for your buck possible, and get some of the vigor series of spells. It provides more overall healing than a cure spell of the same level. Actually, if you walk into combat a little bit injured, lesser vigor (a level 1 spell) provides 15 hp, while false life (a level 2 spell) provides temporary 15.5 hp, so in some ways, the vigor spells are "up there" with the wonky buffs like false life. And you can always use both, they're different levels. And mass lesser vigor works on "1 creature/2 levels", not "1 living creature/2 levels," so you can use it on the undead to give them fast healing 1 as well. Decent group healing for a level 3 spell.
Caelic 06-09-06, 06:12 PM	Sigh. Apparently, we aren't. Okay, one last try, and then I'll leave K to pontificate. Read those rules again. They are for non-abilities in general. What follows afterwards is a specific rundown of what happens when you lack specifically ability scores. But the rule that a nonability is a +0 modifier if ever comes up is the general rules before the discussion about ability scores in particular. Let's see. The very first sentence is: Certain creatures lack ability scores. It's followed by These creatures do not have an ability score of 0--they lack the ability altogether. This is followed by your "General rule." So...the "general rules" come up before the discussion about ability scores. Except for, y'know, the fact that every single sentence in the rules passage leading up to that "general rule" specifically references ability scores. The fact that you divine a "general rule" applying to level adjustment from this suggest that either you have...very creative interpretations of what you read, or you were trying to pull a fast one and hoping nobody would notice. I'm not sure which would be worse. Actually, I'm saying that "no level adjustment" is unfortunately used interchangeably for "not playable and therefore no level adjustment" and "does not change your level adjustment and therefore no level adjustment". Both of those are, in common English, rendered as "no level adjustment". And unfortunately the game designers felt the need to write both the same way in rules-speak. And people have asked you repeatedly for some rules justification for that. None has been forthcoming. I don't care about it one way or another in this context because the Spellsticthed Template has a later source - in The Complete Arcane. Therefore regardless of what the MMII 3.5 Update says or doesn't say on this issue, the Complete Arcane listing takes precedence. Except, of course, that I'm not citing the updated rules about the Spellstitched; I'm citing the rules about level adjustment in general. Gosh! Did you know that the 3.5 MM also has a "Special Qualities" line for all those creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or less? Therefore having "Special Qualities" must be synonymous with "unplayable". Wow! What a lovely straw man you have there! What did you slip into your Cheerios this morning? All As are B does not mean All Bs are A. You made an argument centering around logical equivalency earlier, so one would assume that you knew what it meant and how it worked. Obviously that assumption is painfully wrong. Well, no, but it does establish pretty well where you got lost. Allow me to present it a different way. A. The rules say that monsters in the MM with an Intelligence of 2 or less have no level adjustment. Ordinarily, we would concern ourselves with the question of whether this meant "all monsters" or "some monsters." For purposes of this proof, though, that's irrelevant. B. If we accept the premise that "--" is not equivalent to "no level adjustment," then no monsters in the MM with an intelligence of 2 or less have no level adjustment--every one of them has a level adjustment of "--." C. We know that it is not true that "No monsters in the MM with an intelligence of 2 or less have no level adjustment." D. Therefore, we know that the premise "-- is not equivalent to "no level adjustment"" is also not true. Go ahead. Balors are conjurable with 9th and even 8th level spells. The chohort of a 20th level character can cast 9th level spells. So if you personally play a Balor, you really are equivalent to the summoned monsters of a cohort of one of the other player characters. Which means that your character, despite all the awesome stuff he can do, is underpowered by definition. Now THERE'S a brilliant stroke of logic for you. "Since a cohort can gate one in, it's underpowered as a 20th level character." Of course, by the same logic, any character of 34th level or lower is ALSO underpowered as a 20th level character, since said cohort could Gate them in. And I reiterate: That's a waste of your time. If the other party members want you to heal them, they can jolly well take Tomb Tainted Soul like everyone else. If for some reason they won't do that, use your planar binding abilities to float some Energons around. They don't care and can't do anything about it when you force them to heal your party members. Using up spellstitching slots for healing is a generally bad deal. If you still insist upon doing it, take major creation as one of your spells and then create gallons and gallons of Healing Salve as a standard action. As a necromancer, you have more important things to do in combat than run around healing your little friends when they get themselves hurt.
Caelic 06-09-06, 06:16 PM	Seriously, don't you have anything better to do than dribble your ignorance all over your shirt? K, you really do like insulting people when they don't agree with you, don't you? The difference between you and me is that I can admit when I make a mistake without throwing a tantrum. Watch. "I made a mistake." There. See how easy that was? I didn't have to stomp around. I didn't have to find badly out-of-context rules quotes and pretend they applied in order to try to bolster my case. You should try it sometime. At the moment, I have a dance to chaperone, so I'll leave you to it. Feel free to continue to proclaim your own infallibility and insult me; frankly, I'm not the one you're making look bad. Y'all have a nice day, now. Everyone else: I apologize for this foolishness, and suggest that we walk away from it before a Wiz locks the thread...which would be completely unfair to the original poster.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 06:35 PM	Precisely where is a healing salve outlined at? Also, where are the vigor spells?
EldonG 06-09-06, 06:40 PM	Precisely where is a healing salve outlined at? Also, where are the vigor spells? You can find healing salves in the Forgotten Realms setting book, and they may be reprinted somewhere else. My wizard is a decent alchemist, and makes 'em. Vigor itself (a cantrip) is in the PHB. I'd have to look up any others, but I'd guess they could be found in the Spell Compendium.
tseb 06-09-06, 06:44 PM	Precisely where is a healing salve outlined at? Also, where are the vigor spells? The vigor spells are in the Spell Compendium and before that they were in the Complete Divine. At least one of them is off the naming convention (vigorous circle), but I think they all have the word "vigor" in them somehow.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 06:48 PM	Lookin' at the F.R.C.S. book, and I can't seem to find the salves, any page number?
EldonG 06-09-06, 06:50 PM	Hmmm...are you positive they'd heal undead? They're Conjuration (healing) and those usually use positive energy...I see nothing either way...DM ruling, I suppose.
EldonG 06-09-06, 06:54 PM	Lookin' at the F.R.C.S. book, and I can't seem to find the salves, any page number? Hmmm...color me wrong. I've been using them for a while...lemme look in a couple other books.
tseb 06-09-06, 06:55 PM	Hmmm...are you positive they'd heal undead? They're Conjuration (healing) and those usually use positive energy...I see nothing either way...DM ruling, I suppose. Lesser Vigor (the level 1 base spell in the group) never says anything about positive energy, though. Only that you get fast healing 1 (which vampires prove is kosher for undead). Yeah, it's counter-intuitive, but I blame WotC for pulling the healing spells out of the school of necromancy for that fact. If they all lived in the same place, it wouldn't seem so weird.
EldonG 06-09-06, 06:59 PM	Lesser Vigor (the level 1 base spell in the group) never says anything about positive energy, though. Only that you get fast healing 1 (which vampires prove is kosher for undead). Yeah, it's counter-intuitive, but I blame WotC for pulling the healing spells out of the school of necromancy for that fact. If they all lived in the same place, it wouldn't seem so weird. I'd assume it would be up to DM ruling, then...agreed, the Vampire has fast healing, but I'd think he's channeling negative energy...which he also does...and that's bad for normal folks.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 07:37 PM	At any rate, it probably doesn't matter, the goal was to take care of the fleshies, seeing as how I have 14 1st, and 14 2nd levels spells that I never use, am undead, and can just critically punch myself in the nuts to heal myself. <-(inside joke)
K 06-09-06, 07:39 PM	Hmmm...color me wrong. I've been using them for a while...lemme look in a couple other books. The original writeup was in Tome and Blood, and has been rewritten numerous times. Any character with creation spells should get a handle on a wide variety of alchemical items, because they do surprising things. Did you know that Storm Tears (BoED) allow you to non-magically cure Wisdom Damage? Or that Air Plant (SW) allows you to nonmagically breathe under water? Or that Thinaun (CW) can steal the souls of enemies that you kill? With enough crazy crap up your sleaves, major creation can be the most powerful spell in D&D. But really, I was thinking melee with the Balor...with spells to boot, and with an astounding Str...and more and more and so much more! LOL! Spiked chain! Make note, a Balor hasn't spen't jack for equipment...mmmmmm... Yeah, but you're an Outsider, which means that you don't matter in high level combat. Yes, Balors are really nasty, but high level Cleric wars involve Balors appearing and disapprearing pretty much every round. In a 20th level party, the Balor is going to have a hard time pulling his weight, despite the fact that he can cast a decently powerful implosion every day.
EldonG 06-09-06, 07:45 PM	The original writeup was in Tome and Blood, and has been rewritten numerous times. Any character with creation spells should get a handle on a wide variety of alchemical items, because they do surprising things. Did you know that Storm Tears (BoED) allow you to non-magically cure Wisdom Damage? Or that Air Plant (SW) allows you to nonmagically breathe under water? Or that Thinaun (CW) can steal the souls of enemies that you kill? With enough crazy crap up your sleaves, major creation can be the most powerful spell in D&D. Yeah, but you're an Outsider, which means that you don't matter in high level combat. Yes, Balors are really nasty, but high level Cleric wars involve Balors appearing and disapprearing pretty much every round. In a 20th level party, the Balor is going to have a hard time pulling his weight, despite the fact that he can cast a decently powerful implosion every day. Tome and Blood is probably where I first saw them...can you find them anywhere else? I don't seem to be having any luck. By the way...I'll take on that cleric with my balor...no problem. :D
Rass Frostwhisper 06-09-06, 07:56 PM	12 cu. feet of healing salve eh? About how many doses is that, anyone ever do the rough calculations on stuff like that? [edit] if I did my calculations right... it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3400 doses. (Using an average salve size being an entire container of Vapo-rub, which seems more than reasonable.) About 283 doses per level, give or take.
EldonG 06-09-06, 07:59 PM	12 cu. feet of healing salve eh? About how many doses is that, anyone ever do the rough calculations on stuff like that? lol! no...it's a bunch...I think they're like 1 lb each...maybe half that...
K 06-09-06, 08:21 PM	By the way...I'll take on that cleric with my balor...no problem. Good luck with that, holy word has a special effect to drop you out of combat for the next 24 hours nd is resisted as an 11th level spell. Dismissal is only a 4th level spell, but the save DC is increased by +1 for every +1 Caster Level item or effect the Cleric has with no upper limit. Banishment is a 6th level spell, but every Cold Iron or Good item that the Cleric has on his person increases his effective caster level by 1 and save DC by 2. I don't know how familiar you are with high level Clerics, but they actual have align weapon and bless water on their spell list. Anti-Outsider spells are just like other spells except that the Save DC is arbitrarily higher, much higher. So again, good luck with that, because high level Clerics actually can just snap theirr fingers and banish you to the Abyss for a day. We're talking about you needing natural 20s to escape. 12 cu. feet of healing salve eh? About how many doses is that, anyone ever do the rough calculations on stuff like that? Healing Salve is, I'm not kidding, one Ounce. 12 cubic feet is therefore 11,490 applications of Healing Salve. Te only practical limitation, therefore, is the duration on major creation and the 1 salve/round limitationper victim.
EldonG 06-09-06, 09:04 PM	Good luck with that, holy word has a special effect to drop you out of combat for the next 24 hours nd is resisted as an 11th level spell. Dismissal is only a 4th level spell, but the save DC is increased by +1 for every +1 Caster Level item or effect the Cleric has with no upper limit. Banishment is a 6th level spell, but every Cold Iron or Good item that the Cleric has on his person increases his effective caster level by 1 and save DC by 2. I don't know how familiar you are with high level Clerics, but they actual have align weapon and bless water on their spell list. Anti-Outsider spells are just like other spells except that the Save DC is arbitrarily higher, much higher. So again, good luck with that, because high level Clerics actually can just snap theirr fingers and banish you to the Abyss for a day. We're talking about you needing natural 20s to escape. Healing Salve is, I'm not kidding, one Ounce. 12 cubic feet is therefore 11,490 applications of Healing Salve. Te only practical limitation, therefore, is the duration on major creation and the 1 salve/round limitationper victim. Bring it on, bubba. :)
Balthanon 06-09-06, 11:13 PM	Good luck with that, holy word 7th level spell Dismissal 4th level spell Banishment 6th level spell, And the casting of greater spell immunity (purchased or even obtained through Leadership) negates all of them since spell resistance applies. The balor doesn't even need to know about the fact that they were prepared initially--going back to the Abyss for a day is only an inconvenience, it doesn't actually end the battle decisively. Besides which, who says the cleric gets to choose the battle ground (and homeplane advantage?) :) More pertinent to the "no level adjustment" equals a +0 level adjustment argument, how do you explain the level adjustment lines of elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc... in the Monster Manual? I skimmed through the thread and didn't see that addressed, though the question was raised (albeit without specific examples from what I recall.)
EldonG 06-10-06, 01:11 AM	...wondering what *other* magic items I should take, since I only use a few thousand to blast a 20th level cleric to never-never land...thinking maybe I should summon *him*, to the abyss!
Rass Frostwhisper 06-10-06, 02:42 AM	...wondering what *other* magic items I should take, since I only use a few thousand to blast a 20th level cleric to never-never land...thinking maybe I should summon *him*, to the abyss! The discussion of anything relevant to the Spellstitched creature is welcome here, -however-, the Balor vs. Cleric issue isn't as welcome, sorry fellas, please move this issue to pm's or make a new thread somewhere else. Anything along the lines of the spellstitched is fine.
Bonzai 06-10-06, 02:54 PM	Animate dead would be high on my list. It will save you some serious onyx. Hmm.. can stone bones and other type of undead buff spells be self targeted? I'll have to check.
EldonG 06-10-06, 04:00 PM	The discussion of anything relevant to the Spellstitched creature is welcome here, -however-, the Balor vs. Cleric issue isn't as welcome, sorry fellas, please move this issue to pm's or make a new thread somewhere else. Anything along the lines of the spellstitched is fine. Again, apologies. Has anything been decided yet? More input would be good...
Rass Frostwhisper 06-10-06, 11:33 PM	Well, with the insight brought along by Major Creation, that seems very high on the list, very likely freeing up all the rest of the slots. Just one Major Creation is good enough to "restart" everyone's hit point total for the day. OH! That brings around another point... how do I make a DC 25 alchemy check? Int is not my primary stat, and alchemy isn't a class skill of a Dread Necromancer. Is there any simpler way than just "Make a custom item."? Along the lines of direct damaging spells, they don't seem too high on my list. I would like to de-emphasize the focus on an Undead Army, as I hinted at once before... it's not even remotely high on my priorities list. Besides, if I didn't have to use onyx, what would I do with my 1,875 gp stash of the stuff? What are spells that would be usefull to a party, rather than just myself, or just undead, is the type of stuff that is most likely the type of thing I would choose for spellstitching. As it stands, the party is 8 living people, and 1 undead, and I only have one undead creature under my command, but I seriously won't need a replacement for awhile. I managed to animate a Mountain Troll Skeleton. Gave it a huge +1 shocking greatsword, and a suit of Rhino Hide armor. Anything that gets past him needs to get past 4 Troll Skeletons or Ogre Zombies, or in the case of flyers, 2 Wyvern Zombies... and myself. Basically, my character was designed to hold back stuff from the arcane casters, healers, and archers. Like, "Oh, they are gonna attack the Wizardess? *POP* Now to get her, they need to rip apart an evergrowing wall of explosive soldiers." Wall of Force seems reasonable for just this sort of thing, seeing as how I wind up continually summoning blockers, and any undead we face won't get the boon of healing themselves if they do destroy the guardians I put in place. Thats not to say, I only need to defend against physical harm, I'm sure there are other protective measures that can be put in place, but I could use some help in that department. Utility for the party spells is higher priority than direct damage spells and army animation spells is basically the gist of what I'm saying.
snizor 06-11-06, 12:36 AM	I second your Wall of Force idea. Also, Shriveling Touch from Frostburn might be useful, if only to lower pesky Dex bonuses to armor class.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-11-06, 04:01 AM	That would be "Shivering Touch", and I took that as an advanced learning spell. :P
Caelic 06-11-06, 10:55 AM	I managed to animate a Mountain Troll Skeleton. Gave it a huge +1 shocking greatsword, and a suit of Rhino Hide armor. Anything that gets past him needs to get past 4 Troll Skeletons or Ogre Zombies, or in the case of flyers, 2 Wyvern Zombies... and myself. This is really why I suggested Awaken Undead, and I think you ought to reconsider. Keep in mind that: 1. You already have these undead up and running, so it's not like you're going to be creating more to irritate the Paladin. 2. Without Awaken Undead, a skeleton isn't proficient in armor or weapons--in fact, the Awaken Undead spell implies that they can't even wield them. That is, however, an implication. 3. (This is the big one): Awakened undead regain their (Ex) special qualities. Your Wyverns regain their poison. All your trolls regain their regeneration. Of course, since they're undead, this immediately runs into the 0 Con issue, but they should at least end up with fast healing. (Anyone recall where to find the exact rule on Regeneration and creatures with 0 Constitution?)
K 06-11-06, 02:23 PM	See, I wouldn't take awaken undead as your spell-stitched spell because It's against the rules. It's a 7th level Sor/Wiz spell, it's not an available choice for a spellsstitched spell. How many times do we hve to go over the two restrictions on spell choice? This is the third time in this thread that I've had to remind Caelic about these restrictions, what is wrong with this guy?
Caelic 06-11-06, 02:31 PM	K, As many, I would presume, as it takes to make you feel like you're smart and good and special and better than others. I'm generally posting from memory. Perhaps you carry your books with you everywhere you go; I do not. To my recollection, Awaken Undead was a sixth level clerical spell--from the Deathbound domain, if I recall rightly. I did not recall that it was also a Sorceror/Wizard spell of seventh level. Now, I'm sure you'll insist that not having the alternate levels of every single spell in every book committed to memory is a horrible sin. Unfortunately, some of us do have other things to worry about. Are you always this petulant when someone dares to challenge you?
K 06-11-06, 02:46 PM	Caelic, you're always wrong. You are three for three in suggesting illegal spell choices after the criteria were laid down in the original post. If you don't have something correct to say, don't post at all. Discussions will still be there when you get home, this is the internet. Fact check your work before you post, because I am personaly insulted when you spend so little time on your ideas that I have to fact-check it for you. Not once have you produced a valid rules reference or a list of legal spell suggestions. Why are you even participating in this discussion at all? For that matter, do you ever hve anything correct to say, about anything? I'm not telling you that you're stupid, I'm sincerely curious about whether you ever have anything intelligent to say. The rules we are tossing around really aren't complicated, and so far every single one of your rules references "from memory" has been faulty. Do you even read the books you are talking about?
Caelic 06-11-06, 03:04 PM	I'll take that as a "Yes, I am always this petulant when someone challenges me." You're right; I've made more mistakes in this thread than I generally do. Assigning spell-like abilities to players doesn't happen often in my campaigns. The first mistake was sheer carelessness; I admit that. The second was honest ignorance of a rule. As for the third...dude, I got the spell level wrong by one. Correction: I got the spell level for one class wrong by one. You could have just pointed that out, but you really seem to be fond of insulting those who cross you, and looking for any justification to do so. You're "personally insulted" by the fact that I made mistakes? You're "personally insulted" by the fact that I post when I have the opportunity, and it's not always when I'm surrounded by stacks of books? To that, I can only say that you must have about the thinnest skin of anyone on the planet. I'm not "personally insulted" by the fact that you don't seem to be able to let a single post go by without attacking me; I think it's kind of sad, but I'm not "personally insulted" by it. To the OP, again, I apologize for the derailment of your thread, but it seems like I can't make a single post (and certainly can't make a mistake) without K wanting to butt heads again. That being the case, I'm going to apologize for my part in prolonging this idiotic "Mine's Bigger Than Yours Is" session and stop responding to his posts entirely; I honestly think that's the only way to get things back on track here.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-11-06, 11:25 PM	3. (This is the big one): Awakened undead regain their (Ex) special qualities. Your Wyverns regain their poison. All your trolls regain their regeneration. Of course, since they're undead, this immediately runs into the 0 Con issue, but they should at least end up with fast healing. (Anyone recall where to find the exact rule on Regeneration and creatures with 0 Constitution?) I can't seem to find where it says creatures that used to possess regeneration in life recieve fast-healing. Can someone help me out here?
Balthanon 06-11-06, 11:32 PM	The Monster Manual 3.5 glossary entry for regeneration has one additional line in it: "A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability." Doesn't talk about the conversion to fast healing, but that might have been covered in a Rules of the Game article.
WizO_Autumn 06-11-06, 11:41 PM	Personal Attacks much? It needs to stop. Keep to the subject and be glad these posts will not be ported over to the new boards.
Rass Frostwhisper 06-12-06, 01:32 AM	Well, with the insight brought along by Major Creation, that seems very high on the list, very likely freeing up all the rest of the slots. Just one Major Creation is good enough to "restart" everyone's hit point total for the day. OH! That brings around another point... how do I make a DC 25 alchemy check? Int is not my primary stat, and alchemy isn't a class skill of a Dread Necromancer. Is there any simpler way than just "Make a custom item."? I realized... I am pretty ignorant. :embarrass Still used to 3.0 rules, where alchemy was not craft (alchemy). At any rate, I still didn't put any ranks in it, and I don't have spare skill points, is there anyone willing to help with this department? As the last option, what would be an optimized Craft (Alchemy) item?
Elderich 06-12-06, 07:55 AM	As the last option, what would be an optimized Craft (Alchemy) item?DMG 282 Race or class specific discount is 30%. Requires the skill to use is 10%. If you can put one point in Craft (Alchemy) you can get a 10% discount.
EldonG 06-12-06, 08:03 AM	DMG 282 Race or class specific discount is 30%. Requires the skill to use is 10%. If you can put one point in Craft (Alchemy) you can get a 10% discount. ...if you're willing to make that roll every time with one skill rank in it...