Assistance needed completing Rog/NarD/AT [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assistance needed completing Rog/NarD/AT [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hanniball
09-25-06, 02:55 AM I’ve been tossing around this idea for an upcoming 20th level adventure, but I’m having trouble fine-tuning it. I’m attempting to build a caster-type rogue without utilizing Wiz/Sor. I find the Assassin spell list especially attractive and Nar Demonbinder providing higher-level spell support leads me to focus primarily on them. However, I have a few questions at the bottom of the post.

Sources allowed are: Core, complete series, and any Faerun material.

NE Human Rog 3/Ftr 2/Assassin 3/ShadowThief of Amn 1/AT 4/NarDemonbinder 1/AT 5-10

Benefits: +11 BAB, saves 8/15/11, +10D6 Sneak attack, 4th lvl Assassin spells (CL 14), 8th lvl NarD spells (CL 15), trapfinding, evasion, Imp. Uncanny dodge, death attack (DC 13+Int), doublespeak, ranged legerdemain 3/day, Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day, Imp Familiar, Inimical Casting

Feats: Magical Training (1), Iron will (Human), Persuasive (3), TWF (Ftr 1), OPEN (Ftr 2) Spell Focus: Conjuration (6), Imp TWF (9), Extra Spell: Summon Undead 2 (12), Arcane strike (15), Practiced Spellcaster: Assassin (18)

A few of questions:
First, what are some suggestions for the 2nd lvl bonus fighter feat?
Does the Nar Demonbinder spell selection warrant the feat investment? (Especially considering the builds inclusion of Arcane Strike)
Would the Hexblades Cha-to-saves offset losing a couple Fighter feats?
Overall, is the build strong in your opinion?
Have I missed anything obvious?
PhoenixInferno
09-25-06, 02:59 AM If it was me, I would focus on UMD instead of TWF. Your BAB is low, so what does TWF/ITWF buy you? Not a whole lot. UMD will also let you fill in the gaps of the arcane spellcasting you're missing - and other things as well.
Wire
09-25-06, 03:39 AM Why not enter Nar Demonbinder via Bard since you are trying to avoid Wiz/Sorc?

Bard 12 / ND 2 / Spellsinger 4 / Witch Hunter 2

BAB +15
Bard 4th Level Spells
ND 8th Level Spells
Cha-to-Saves (Witch Hunter)
16 Levels of Bard Song
12 Levels of Bard Lore

This build can work like your desired rogue-caster if the skills are properly distributed.
Hanniball
09-25-06, 04:01 PM If it was me, I would focus on UMD instead of TWF. Your BAB is low, so what does TWF/ITWF buy you? Not a whole lot. UMD will also let you fill in the gaps of the arcane spellcasting you're missing - and other things as well.

I can pretty easily have maxed-out UMD in addition to the other neccessary skills with Assassin and AT having 4+Int mod skill points/lvl. Also, NarD casting is Cha-based so that's an important stat for this build.

TWF is there to compliment my 10D6 sneak attack. 5 attacks/round is what just about any other Rogue build gets and I can enhance my attack rolls with Wraithstrike and Arcane Stike.

Why not enter Nar Demonbinder via Bard since you are trying to avoid Wiz/Sorc?

Niether Bard or Nar Demonbinder have any damage potential with their spell selection. I decided sneak attack would provide a very nice damage boost. Also, Rogues get Trapfinding.

For my open feat slot I think I'm going with Weapon Finesse, but I am open to suggestions and answers to the initial questions.

Thanks so far guys&gals!
PhaedrusXY
09-25-06, 04:15 PM Feats: Magical Training (1), Iron will (Human), Persuasive (3), TWF (Ftr 1), OPEN (Ftr 2) Spell Focus: Conjuration (6), Imp TWF (9), Extra Spell: Summon Undead 2 (12), Arcane strike (15), Practiced Spellcaster: Assassin (18)Why not swap the levels you take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Spell, and get Summon Undead 4 instead of 2?

I think Hexblade 3 for Cha to saves would be better than fighter feats, yes. I think one of the evil palladin variants imposes a -2 to AC as an aura, also. If so, you might take that instead.
jstorrie
09-25-06, 06:23 PM The main problem with your build is that you can't switch which spellcasting class Arcane Trickster is progressing midway - so what you have has a good caster level for assassin spells, but only casts demonbinder spells at caster level one. Whoops.

Ranger 2 / Hexblade 3 / Temple Raider 5 / Human Paragon 3 / Nar Demonbinder 1 / Arcane Trickster 6 is workable, with a base attack bonus of 13 - but to be honest, Nar Demonbinders don't make particularly good arcane tricksters, thanks to their dearth of ray spells.
Hanniball
09-25-06, 06:26 PM Why not swap the levels you take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Spell, and get Summon Undead 4 instead of 2?

Extra Spell is taken to satisfy NarDemonbinder's knowledge of at least one summon spell requirement. Therefore it must be taken before 14th lvl.

I think Hexblade 3 for Cha to saves would be better than fighter feats, yes.

I kind of thought so too. Which feats should I drop?

I think one of the evil palladin variants imposes a -2 to AC as an aura, also. If so, you might take that instead

Unfortunately, the variant paladins are not included in the allowed sources. Thanks though!
Hanniball
09-25-06, 06:30 PM The main problem with your build is that you can't switch which spellcasting class Arcane Trickster is progressing midway

Are you sure about that?

Spells per Day
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day

The bold section is the important information. This appears to allow different classes to be affected by the spellcasting progression. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phoenix00
09-25-06, 06:35 PM ...If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day

See the part I highlighted.
PhoenixInferno
09-25-06, 06:54 PM You might be able to get away with using Daggerspell Mage - switch up the advancement, if you think AT won't let you.
Hanniball
09-25-06, 07:36 PM See the part I highlighted.

Wow, I looked right over that. Unfortunately, I now have to completely rework the build from the ground up. But that's what I come to the boards for. Thanks!

You might be able to get away with using Daggerspell Mage

Doesn't DSM have a non-evil requirement? If I'm remembering incorrectly then it's a definite swap.
PhoenixInferno
09-25-06, 07:59 PM Doesn't DSM have a non-evil requirement? If I'm remembering incorrectly then it's a definite swap.I don't recall, but its not a swap, so much as you're "regressing" into a more "traditional" AT/DSM type build.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanniball 09-25-06, 02:55 AM	I’ve been tossing around this idea for an upcoming 20th level adventure, but I’m having trouble fine-tuning it. I’m attempting to build a caster-type rogue without utilizing Wiz/Sor. I find the Assassin spell list especially attractive and Nar Demonbinder providing higher-level spell support leads me to focus primarily on them. However, I have a few questions at the bottom of the post. Sources allowed are: Core, complete series, and any Faerun material. NE Human Rog 3/Ftr 2/Assassin 3/ShadowThief of Amn 1/AT 4/NarDemonbinder 1/AT 5-10 Benefits: +11 BAB, saves 8/15/11, +10D6 Sneak attack, 4th lvl Assassin spells (CL 14), 8th lvl NarD spells (CL 15), trapfinding, evasion, Imp. Uncanny dodge, death attack (DC 13+Int), doublespeak, ranged legerdemain 3/day, Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day, Imp Familiar, Inimical Casting Feats: Magical Training (1), Iron will (Human), Persuasive (3), TWF (Ftr 1), OPEN (Ftr 2) Spell Focus: Conjuration (6), Imp TWF (9), Extra Spell: Summon Undead 2 (12), Arcane strike (15), Practiced Spellcaster: Assassin (18) A few of questions: First, what are some suggestions for the 2nd lvl bonus fighter feat? Does the Nar Demonbinder spell selection warrant the feat investment? (Especially considering the builds inclusion of Arcane Strike) Would the Hexblades Cha-to-saves offset losing a couple Fighter feats? Overall, is the build strong in your opinion? Have I missed anything obvious?
PhoenixInferno 09-25-06, 02:59 AM	If it was me, I would focus on UMD instead of TWF. Your BAB is low, so what does TWF/ITWF buy you? Not a whole lot. UMD will also let you fill in the gaps of the arcane spellcasting you're missing - and other things as well.
Wire 09-25-06, 03:39 AM	Why not enter Nar Demonbinder via Bard since you are trying to avoid Wiz/Sorc? Bard 12 / ND 2 / Spellsinger 4 / Witch Hunter 2 BAB +15 Bard 4th Level Spells ND 8th Level Spells Cha-to-Saves (Witch Hunter) 16 Levels of Bard Song 12 Levels of Bard Lore This build can work like your desired rogue-caster if the skills are properly distributed.
Hanniball 09-25-06, 04:01 PM	If it was me, I would focus on UMD instead of TWF. Your BAB is low, so what does TWF/ITWF buy you? Not a whole lot. UMD will also let you fill in the gaps of the arcane spellcasting you're missing - and other things as well. I can pretty easily have maxed-out UMD in addition to the other neccessary skills with Assassin and AT having 4+Int mod skill points/lvl. Also, NarD casting is Cha-based so that's an important stat for this build. TWF is there to compliment my 10D6 sneak attack. 5 attacks/round is what just about any other Rogue build gets and I can enhance my attack rolls with Wraithstrike and Arcane Stike. Why not enter Nar Demonbinder via Bard since you are trying to avoid Wiz/Sorc? Niether Bard or Nar Demonbinder have any damage potential with their spell selection. I decided sneak attack would provide a very nice damage boost. Also, Rogues get Trapfinding. For my open feat slot I think I'm going with Weapon Finesse, but I am open to suggestions and answers to the initial questions. Thanks so far guys&gals!
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 04:15 PM	Feats: Magical Training (1), Iron will (Human), Persuasive (3), TWF (Ftr 1), OPEN (Ftr 2) Spell Focus: Conjuration (6), Imp TWF (9), Extra Spell: Summon Undead 2 (12), Arcane strike (15), Practiced Spellcaster: Assassin (18)Why not swap the levels you take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Spell, and get Summon Undead 4 instead of 2? I think Hexblade 3 for Cha to saves would be better than fighter feats, yes. I think one of the evil palladin variants imposes a -2 to AC as an aura, also. If so, you might take that instead.
jstorrie 09-25-06, 06:23 PM	The main problem with your build is that you can't switch which spellcasting class Arcane Trickster is progressing midway - so what you have has a good caster level for assassin spells, but only casts demonbinder spells at caster level one. Whoops. Ranger 2 / Hexblade 3 / Temple Raider 5 / Human Paragon 3 / Nar Demonbinder 1 / Arcane Trickster 6 is workable, with a base attack bonus of 13 - but to be honest, Nar Demonbinders don't make particularly good arcane tricksters, thanks to their dearth of ray spells.
Hanniball 09-25-06, 06:26 PM	Why not swap the levels you take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Spell, and get Summon Undead 4 instead of 2? Extra Spell is taken to satisfy NarDemonbinder's knowledge of at least one summon spell requirement. Therefore it must be taken before 14th lvl. I think Hexblade 3 for Cha to saves would be better than fighter feats, yes. I kind of thought so too. Which feats should I drop? I think one of the evil palladin variants imposes a -2 to AC as an aura, also. If so, you might take that instead Unfortunately, the variant paladins are not included in the allowed sources. Thanks though!
Hanniball 09-25-06, 06:30 PM	The main problem with your build is that you can't switch which spellcasting class Arcane Trickster is progressing midway Are you sure about that? Spells per Day When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day The bold section is the important information. This appears to allow different classes to be affected by the spellcasting progression. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phoenix00 09-25-06, 06:35 PM	...If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day See the part I highlighted.
PhoenixInferno 09-25-06, 06:54 PM	You might be able to get away with using Daggerspell Mage - switch up the advancement, if you think AT won't let you.
Hanniball 09-25-06, 07:36 PM	See the part I highlighted. Wow, I looked right over that. Unfortunately, I now have to completely rework the build from the ground up. But that's what I come to the boards for. Thanks! You might be able to get away with using Daggerspell Mage Doesn't DSM have a non-evil requirement? If I'm remembering incorrectly then it's a definite swap.
PhoenixInferno 09-25-06, 07:59 PM	Doesn't DSM have a non-evil requirement? If I'm remembering incorrectly then it's a definite swap.I don't recall, but its not a swap, so much as you're "regressing" into a more "traditional" AT/DSM type build.