Assistance with multiclass rogue opt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assistance with multiclass rogue opt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
prozacman
07-20-05, 09:55 PM ok, so i have a 3 rogue/ 1 soulknife with the following stats:
Human
str 15
dex 17
con 16
int 18
wis 15
cha 16

my feats are: Stealthy (+2 hide/move silent)
up the walls (who needs climb?
and improved sneak attack (woot, d8 sneak attacks)

Now my DM loves the old 3.0 magic darkness (cant see through it w/ torches)
so i'm considering taking a level of warlock (devil sight invocation)

I'm also considering taking up to 3 levels of swashbuckler (weapon finesse, grace, and insightful strike (YAY))

so my tenative plan would have him looking like this at lvl 20:
rogue 15/swashbuckler 3/ soulknife 1/ warlock 1
this would of course mean he would never be without a ranged weapon and a close up weapon.

Any ideas, critiques, or other stuff would be appreciated. So far i'm highly enjoying the character.. but am getting annoyed by trying to sneak w/ a torch (impossible) and by all the magic darkness. I greatly enjoy running on walls and having a ready weapon at whim. I'm curious how much imma knowtice the lack of skill points from the warlock lvl and SB lvls... anyhow i'd love your thoughts.

thanks in advance
WizardlyFriend
07-20-05, 10:07 PM str 15
dex 17
con 16
int 18
wis 15
cha 16

with stats like those you could build anything... :eek:
prozacman
07-20-05, 11:05 PM correct, i could've.. but we needed a rogue and i've never played one... so i'm a rogue, i chose a level of soul knife for the insta weapon (in case of imprisonment) and the ability to take the up the walls feat.

i realise i coulda been a decent monk or a rediculous cleric.. but i'm enjoying my rogue.. except for my lack of darkvision.. and my DM's inclination to use magical darkness (seriously it comes up like once every 3 sessons).

so yeah, i digress. Any help or ideas? i did the math and if i take 3 lvls of Swashbuckler and 1 of warlock i will miss out on 18 skill points.

the only skills i'll be able to keep maxed are: disable device, hide, move silent, open lock, search, and slight of hand.

the skills that will suffer are (tenatively): appraise, balance, bluff, escape artist, gather information, tumble, and use rope.

i realise a lot of these arn't class skills for SB and the warlock, but we've house-ruled it that once you take a class and get the skills, they're class skills for any levels you take afterwards (the logic is that you wouldn't forget how to practice picking locks, just cause your practicing a little more with a sword.. and the limits on how much you can practice are already built into the classes base skill points).

anyhow, once again, any ideas or assistance or anything would be appreciated.

Like i said, i've never really played a rogue before.. am i gonna be shooting myself in the foot by loosing 18 skill points? or will my higher BAB and damage (YAY insightful strike) make up for it?
WizardlyFriend
07-20-05, 11:20 PM the rogue has two purposes which it can serve.

the first is skill *****. the group needs someone who can find traps, disarm them, talk to people, etc., etc. a rogue has so many skills so this is where he excels

the second purpose is to be a huge damage dealer. a properly built rogue can deal the most damage in comparison to any other class, except casters, but casters can only do it a coupel times a day.

so my question is what role are you looking to fill. or are you looking to fill both.

if you want to fill the first one, you can't afford to lose skill points, if you want to fill the second one do whatever you can as long as your sneak attack, number of attacks, and attack bonus goes up.

if you want both you have to pick classes that give you the above and most of your rogue skills.

EDIT: how is wh0re a curse?
prozacman
07-20-05, 11:42 PM hm.. its rough... we do need my skills, but i'll be able to keep the most important ones to the party (trapfinding mostly) maxed. but i also wanna be able to deal damage. I realise the warlock level is not "optimized" in any since of the word, except that we run into soo much magic darkness its devil sight invocation will be rediculously useful

i dunno.. i'm kinda at a loss...
the SB levels seem like a good idea.. it'll make me much better at fighting.. but i'll loose 1 damage dice of sneak attack

i dunno...
prozacman
07-20-05, 11:58 PM oops, double post
Erudite
07-21-05, 11:36 AM rogue 15/swashbuckler 3/ soulknife 1/ warlock 1

You have a bit of a mess. The single level of Soul Blade sucks hard. Your feat choices are sub-optimal. You'll have XP penalties. You are not Epic ready. Your 'weapons' are worth nothing at high level.

Try to retrofit your character, if your DM is so kind. Many are. To be a Face/Trapfinder who can fight well, go Ninja (CV)1/Bard 7/Shadowdancer 2. For feats take Dodge (Human), Mobility (1), Snowflake Wardance (3), Combat Reflexes (6), Power Attack (9). If you can take a flaw, take Able Learner (RoD).

You can now, in effect, add Wis to AC when without armor (nice for when you are surprised in the bath), Trapfinding, Sudden Strike +1d6 (not so great), Bardic Music and Knowledge, Darkvision that is NOT dependant on race/templates, so when you polymorph you keep it, regardless of form, Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and the ability to add your Charisma to damage (Snowflake Wardance). Use a two handed weapon if possible. If you play after level 10, you can continue with any prestige class you like, and to really put that charisma to use, take two levels of Sublime Chord, then continue with whatever class you like to advance your casting and skills. You'll end up with inspire courage to add to your hit and damage, cha to attack (converts to cha to damage with power attack), good face/trapfinding skills, and up to 9th level arcane spells, all of which keeps you competetive at every level.

If you cannot reconfigure your character:

If you plan on going through with this character to high levels, forget about sneak attack damage. At high levels, sneak attack damage loses its appeal as increasingly greater numbers of opponents become immune to it. Sneak attack damage also cannot be multiplied on a critical. So when you do fight critters that are sneak attackable/crittable <excuse the mangling of the English language here>, you can use a keen weapon to multiply that damage instead of the lame soul knife with sneak attack dice.

Assuming you will play to level 16-20, and have such a high charisma, go for three levels of bard. Take the feat Snowflake Wardance (add Cha to attack rolls). Now you are Rogue 3/Soulknife1/Bard 3, and must avoid XP penalties. So improve Soulknife by 1. Then keep increasing Bard or Rogue only, as you see fit. For reasons stated, I would add 5 more levels of Bard, then go Warchanter or Sublime Chord, according to taste.

Nothing above is totally optimized, but certainly reasonable considering.

If you want to totally optimize, and can start from scratch with no Rogue at all, consider a Chameleon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082)

Certainly, a Ninja 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Iajutsu Master or Soldier of Light 2/Shiba Protector 1/Warmind 2 walks all over your current build, but does everything you want it to, and more.

I hope this addresses your interests. Cheers.
Khazra Reborn
07-21-05, 12:20 PM You could go rogue11 & follow up with the 3.0 darksun soulknife PRC. its like the base class consolidated into 10 levels

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prozacman 07-20-05, 09:55 PM	ok, so i have a 3 rogue/ 1 soulknife with the following stats: Human str 15 dex 17 con 16 int 18 wis 15 cha 16 my feats are: Stealthy (+2 hide/move silent) up the walls (who needs climb? and improved sneak attack (woot, d8 sneak attacks) Now my DM loves the old 3.0 magic darkness (cant see through it w/ torches) so i'm considering taking a level of warlock (devil sight invocation) I'm also considering taking up to 3 levels of swashbuckler (weapon finesse, grace, and insightful strike (YAY)) so my tenative plan would have him looking like this at lvl 20: rogue 15/swashbuckler 3/ soulknife 1/ warlock 1 this would of course mean he would never be without a ranged weapon and a close up weapon. Any ideas, critiques, or other stuff would be appreciated. So far i'm highly enjoying the character.. but am getting annoyed by trying to sneak w/ a torch (impossible) and by all the magic darkness. I greatly enjoy running on walls and having a ready weapon at whim. I'm curious how much imma knowtice the lack of skill points from the warlock lvl and SB lvls... anyhow i'd love your thoughts. thanks in advance
WizardlyFriend 07-20-05, 10:07 PM	str 15 dex 17 con 16 int 18 wis 15 cha 16 with stats like those you could build anything... :eek:
prozacman 07-20-05, 11:05 PM	correct, i could've.. but we needed a rogue and i've never played one... so i'm a rogue, i chose a level of soul knife for the insta weapon (in case of imprisonment) and the ability to take the up the walls feat. i realise i coulda been a decent monk or a rediculous cleric.. but i'm enjoying my rogue.. except for my lack of darkvision.. and my DM's inclination to use magical darkness (seriously it comes up like once every 3 sessons). so yeah, i digress. Any help or ideas? i did the math and if i take 3 lvls of Swashbuckler and 1 of warlock i will miss out on 18 skill points. the only skills i'll be able to keep maxed are: disable device, hide, move silent, open lock, search, and slight of hand. the skills that will suffer are (tenatively): appraise, balance, bluff, escape artist, gather information, tumble, and use rope. i realise a lot of these arn't class skills for SB and the warlock, but we've house-ruled it that once you take a class and get the skills, they're class skills for any levels you take afterwards (the logic is that you wouldn't forget how to practice picking locks, just cause your practicing a little more with a sword.. and the limits on how much you can practice are already built into the classes base skill points). anyhow, once again, any ideas or assistance or anything would be appreciated. Like i said, i've never really played a rogue before.. am i gonna be shooting myself in the foot by loosing 18 skill points? or will my higher BAB and damage (YAY insightful strike) make up for it?
WizardlyFriend 07-20-05, 11:20 PM	the rogue has two purposes which it can serve. the first is skill *****. the group needs someone who can find traps, disarm them, talk to people, etc., etc. a rogue has so many skills so this is where he excels the second purpose is to be a huge damage dealer. a properly built rogue can deal the most damage in comparison to any other class, except casters, but casters can only do it a coupel times a day. so my question is what role are you looking to fill. or are you looking to fill both. if you want to fill the first one, you can't afford to lose skill points, if you want to fill the second one do whatever you can as long as your sneak attack, number of attacks, and attack bonus goes up. if you want both you have to pick classes that give you the above and most of your rogue skills. EDIT: how is wh0re a curse?
prozacman 07-20-05, 11:42 PM	hm.. its rough... we do need my skills, but i'll be able to keep the most important ones to the party (trapfinding mostly) maxed. but i also wanna be able to deal damage. I realise the warlock level is not "optimized" in any since of the word, except that we run into soo much magic darkness its devil sight invocation will be rediculously useful i dunno.. i'm kinda at a loss... the SB levels seem like a good idea.. it'll make me much better at fighting.. but i'll loose 1 damage dice of sneak attack i dunno...
prozacman 07-20-05, 11:58 PM	oops, double post
Erudite 07-21-05, 11:36 AM	rogue 15/swashbuckler 3/ soulknife 1/ warlock 1 You have a bit of a mess. The single level of Soul Blade sucks hard. Your feat choices are sub-optimal. You'll have XP penalties. You are not Epic ready. Your 'weapons' are worth nothing at high level. Try to retrofit your character, if your DM is so kind. Many are. To be a Face/Trapfinder who can fight well, go Ninja (CV)1/Bard 7/Shadowdancer 2. For feats take Dodge (Human), Mobility (1), Snowflake Wardance (3), Combat Reflexes (6), Power Attack (9). If you can take a flaw, take Able Learner (RoD). You can now, in effect, add Wis to AC when without armor (nice for when you are surprised in the bath), Trapfinding, Sudden Strike +1d6 (not so great), Bardic Music and Knowledge, Darkvision that is NOT dependant on race/templates, so when you polymorph you keep it, regardless of form, Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and the ability to add your Charisma to damage (Snowflake Wardance). Use a two handed weapon if possible. If you play after level 10, you can continue with any prestige class you like, and to really put that charisma to use, take two levels of Sublime Chord, then continue with whatever class you like to advance your casting and skills. You'll end up with inspire courage to add to your hit and damage, cha to attack (converts to cha to damage with power attack), good face/trapfinding skills, and up to 9th level arcane spells, all of which keeps you competetive at every level. If you cannot reconfigure your character: If you plan on going through with this character to high levels, forget about sneak attack damage. At high levels, sneak attack damage loses its appeal as increasingly greater numbers of opponents become immune to it. Sneak attack damage also cannot be multiplied on a critical. So when you do fight critters that are sneak attackable/crittable <excuse the mangling of the English language here>, you can use a keen weapon to multiply that damage instead of the lame soul knife with sneak attack dice. Assuming you will play to level 16-20, and have such a high charisma, go for three levels of bard. Take the feat Snowflake Wardance (add Cha to attack rolls). Now you are Rogue 3/Soulknife1/Bard 3, and must avoid XP penalties. So improve Soulknife by 1. Then keep increasing Bard or Rogue only, as you see fit. For reasons stated, I would add 5 more levels of Bard, then go Warchanter or Sublime Chord, according to taste. Nothing above is totally optimized, but certainly reasonable considering. If you want to totally optimize, and can start from scratch with no Rogue at all, consider a Chameleon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082) Certainly, a Ninja 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Iajutsu Master or Soldier of Light 2/Shiba Protector 1/Warmind 2 walks all over your current build, but does everything you want it to, and more. I hope this addresses your interests. Cheers.
Khazra Reborn 07-21-05, 12:20 PM	You could go rogue11 & follow up with the 3.0 darksun soulknife PRC. its like the base class consolidated into 10 levels