Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neptunehero 11-17-06, 01:38 PM	Upon the death of our rogue and arcanist, my party needs one character to fill out both roles. I'm the most experienced in the party, and usually come with the most optimized characters (thanks almost entirely to you guys), so they elected me to come with someone who could do both. Now there are three PrCs I can think of that are built for this purpose: the classic Arcane Trickster, the Daggerspell Mage, and the newer Unseen Seer. I am torn between the three as of now. My DM intends to look over them and advise me as to which will likely be most useful in his game, but I'd like your opinions as well. If I were to use DSM, I'd probably approach it like this: Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/DSM 10/XXX 4. My Arcane Trickster build is looking something like this: Rogue 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (or whatever is necessary to fulfill the requirements)/ AT 10/ X whatever. Either way, I intend to make use of reserve feats as my primary way of delivering sneak attack damage, so I'll likely have a few of those. I also intend to throw practiced spellcaster in there. My feats are otherwise entirely unselected, except for the required weapon focus (dagger) and TWF for the DSM build. Other than that, I'm pretty much open. Which build would you take (or suggest another, if you have a better idea) and can you recommend any good feats/tactics/spells for me?
Phoenix00 11-17-06, 01:43 PM	What books do you have access to? In my mind the best build is one that uses Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster. Grab Hunter's Eye from PHB II with your Unseen Seer Advanced Learning.
Neptunehero 11-17-06, 01:47 PM	Sorry, forgot. All books allowed except Eberron and Unearther Arcana. and I'm not terribly familiar with Unseen Seer; my friend loaned me Complete Mage shortly after it came out, but I returned it a while ago and didn't have much time to read it. I can use it, but why do you recommend that one in particular?
Phoenix00 11-17-06, 02:06 PM	For you these are the goodies of Unseen Seer. Easy Prereqs, just skills and some spells. 4d6 Attack Bonus to sneak attack Divination Spells get +3 Caster Level Bonus, all other -3 (But if you take practiced spellcaster, your Divination is +3 and all spells are at a full wizard cl due to one rogue or spelltheif level) Free Silent Spell Feat Immune to Scrying 3 Advanced Learning which can be used on any divination spell, including ones from other spell lists. 3/4 BAB, 6+Int Skills (Good List). ------------------ A good prestige class that is comparable to an arcane trickster. It gives more sneak attack and no caster level loss unlike daggerspell mage. For how you are planning to sneak attack Unseen Seer is better than DSM no contest. The only question is which do you want your focus to be AT or US, both are good. Additionally for US there is a spell in the PHB2 called hunter's eye. It is a 2nd level Ranger Spell, that gives Caster Level/3 sneak attack. It is similar to Wraithstrike in caster time and how long it lasts, and like wraitstrike it is persistible. Grab it with your Advanced Learning. I would also consider grab Ghoulstrike from CAdv, but since you are a mage you don't really have the frustration that Rogues sometimes have with undead and construct. Also make sure you get Sniper Shot(sneak attack from any distance) and Golem strike (sneak attack constructs), but a normal wizard can learn these so don't use your advanced learning. ------------------ Some of Complete Mage's items are out of wack since there are no real caps on the abilities. Complete Mage overall isn't as game breaking as Complete Divine but still powerful. I would say the Unseen Seer isn't overpowered in the least, it is just pretty much a variant AT that you can thust have more sneak attack+good caster prior to epic. Maybe with Persistant Hunter's Eye, but that is a problem with Persistant spells and not Complete Mage or Unseen Seer by itself.
PhoenixInferno 11-17-06, 02:16 PM	Doesn't Unseen Seer have 6+INT skills over the AT's 4+INT?
Phoenix00 11-17-06, 02:22 PM	Doesn't Unseen Seer have 6+INT skills over the AT's 4+INT? Yes.
Neptunehero 11-17-06, 03:10 PM	Embarassing question: How does one persist spells? I know a lot about how it can be abused, but somehow missed the memo on where it was coming from.
Phoenix00 11-17-06, 03:20 PM	Embarassing question: How does one persist spells? I know a lot about how it can be abused, but somehow missed the memo on where it was coming from. It is a metamagic feat http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/feats/PERSISTENT_SPELL.html Located in Complete Arcane, Dieties and Demigods, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Players Gude to Faerun, and Tome and Blood. Some versions have it listed as +4 all newer sources have it as +6
Neptunehero 11-17-06, 04:01 PM	Thanks, you guys are helping a good deal. I think I'm most likely using your Unseen Seer suggestion. Spellthief 1/ Wiz 4/ US 10, followed by whatever, seems like a fairly good build. We're only at level 4, I just needed to know what I ought to build towards, now I know. Especially with hunter's eye, US is pretty clearly the way to go.
Seeker of Truth 11-17-06, 04:08 PM	You might want to consider a beguiler. It allows you to fill the trapmonky roll and still have full caster levels.
ChristopherGroves 11-17-06, 05:06 PM	If you want the SA dice, why not dip all 3 classes?
Gnarl 11-17-06, 06:05 PM	Make sure your DM will let you use persistent spell on those 1 round duration spells. I know I have a problem with the wizard putting a persistent wraithstrike in the fighter's ring of spell storing. Another interresting prestige class for this kind of build is the Loredelver in the Races of Destiny book. You get: No sneak attack You lose 1 caster level A wizard's bab Bardic Lore Detect Magic/Arcane Sight/Greater Arcane Sight at will Evasion/Improved Evasion Immunity to Fear Spontaneous Casting of some usefull spells 2 good saves (compared to 1 with the Unseen Seer) d6 hit points 6 skill points per level (including search/disable device if that's what you're looking for). It's probably not as good as the arcane trickster in the damage department but depending on the power level of your games, it should make a liveable character that can do some very nice things in non combat situations. If your games only are about hack'n slashing, go for the trickster.
OldManWinter 11-17-06, 06:12 PM	I needed to fill both the rogue and Arcane roles so I chose the Beguiler and so far it's been pretty awesome. The cleric stomps undead and I handle the rest.
Neptunehero 11-18-06, 02:46 AM	Well, a beguiler is a great class, I'll give you that, but I was running one in another campaign already, and wanted something diefferent. Besides that, it's good to be able to do real damage and get the variety of spells that a wizard gets. The build is in play now, so far I went: Human Spellthief 1/Wiz 3. Feats: Racial: Able learner 1: Practiced Spellcaster 3: Acidic Splatter I plan to continue by taking metamagic feats, more reserve feats, etc. It's not too complex a build. Eventually it ought to look like Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 5. Again, thanks for the help, folks.
Bluenose 11-18-06, 08:23 AM	One thing I feel like pointing out is that the Unseen Seer doesn't have Disable Device and Open Lock as class skills. It may not be important to you, but it's worth keeping in mind.
FriendlyFrog 11-18-06, 08:34 AM	One thing I feel like pointing out is that the Unseen Seer doesn't have Disable Device and Open Lock as class skills. It may not be important to you, but it's worth keeping in mind. You pretty much need Able learner to qualify for the PrC anyway (unless you want to spend all your skill points cross class), so it doesn't matter that much.
Timespike 11-18-06, 10:33 PM	Actually, if you want to get into Unseen Seer, a nice way in is Rogue (or scout) 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 10/Beguiler 5. My wife will be playing one of these in an upcoming game. To make matters even scarier, she's a changeling, and took the first level changeling rogue racial substitution level. (She lost trapfinding at level 1, picked up a huge number of social benefits, and an extra 8 skill points, and then got trapfinding at level 2 from beguiler anyway. Very nice. Plus she's, you know, a changeling. She's quite possibly going to be the ultimate spy, which, thanks to her own devious nature and the urban nature of the impending campaign, will likely make the rest of the PCs very glad she is on their side!) You'll get (8+int)x4 skill points at first level and 6+int skill points every level thereafter. Rogue, beguiler, and unseen seer all have really good skill lists, and you'll pick up 2 illusion and 3 divination advanced learnings over the course of the build; not too shabby. Plus, the 9 levels of beguiler have pretty much everything you really want out of the class (though the single-class beguiler's capstone ability is pretty phenomenal) And if you're worried that the beguiler spell list doesn't qualify you for unseen seer without some cheesy feat or something, have no fear. As a first level beguiler, you can cast detect magic, read magic, detect secret doors, and comprehend languages off the default beguiler spell list. There's a good number of divinations at higher levels, too. You're qualified.
ChristopherGroves 11-18-06, 11:19 PM	She'll have more skills than that w/ the Changeling Racial sub level... Beguilers are awesome.
Timespike 11-18-06, 11:55 PM	She'll have more skills than that w/ the Changeling Racial sub level... Beguilers are awesome. No, she'll have 8 more skill points than a normal first level rogue would have. A first-level halfling rogue with an INT of 10 has 32 skill points. A Changeling has 40. As it is, she has a jaw-dropping 56. And then 10 every level thereafter. (Well, until levels 8 and 16 where they go up to 11 and 12, respectively) Beguilers are indeed awesome though. Like jaw-droppingly awesome. They're nt what I'd consider overpowered by any stretch, but they've got everything a sneaky, devious player (like my wife) is gong to want.
Timlagor 11-20-06, 09:53 AM	Other Feats you should consider: Improved Initiative Split Ray Empower Spell Craft Wondrous Item (campaign dependent) I would not stop Wizard at level 4: that Feat is just going to be too valuable.
Neptunehero 11-20-06, 03:17 PM	A good point. I guess I definitely ought to take it to 5, should have though of that myself. Thanks.
Phoenix00 11-20-06, 03:41 PM	Just want to add to the Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4 point instead of the Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 5. Wizard 5 gives you a bonus feat, and the only thing Arcane Trickster 5 gives is Ranged legerdemain 2/day. Arcane Trickster gets sneak attack on even levels and you don't even get higher bab or saves if you aren't playing the superior partial bab and saves. So forget about Arcane Trickster 5, go with one more level of wizard and stop arcane trickster at lvl 4.