At what level is Wiz > Fi [Archive] - Wizards Community

At what level is Wiz > Fi [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
peterastrand
10-24-03, 08:16 AM I think all agree that at lower levels Fi > Wiz
and at higher level Wiz > Fi. But at what level is Fi = Wiz

Somewhere between 9 and 12?
Setanos
10-24-03, 08:29 AM Maybe 5-6 are = levels.

Once a wizard gets limited travel ability via Dimension Door, its difficult for a fighter to really finish a wizard unless they get a lucky crit. A wizard on the other hand, with patience and tactics, can kill said fighter reliably well.
The Club
10-24-03, 09:15 AM Even at first level wizards are extremely dangerous to fighter types. A Sleep or Color Spray can open up fighter types (bad Will saves) to coup de grace immediately. Wizards only have so many spell slots to use at low levels, but throwing the right spell at the right guy can make them pretty menacing.

Because of "save-or-die" arcane and divine magic, fighters are never really safe. The whole Enchantment school of magic can exploit the fighter's lousy Will save and create nightmares for adventuring parties.

The Club
Funny Slaughter
10-24-03, 09:22 AM i try to give my opinion not for a duel but for a party. in my experience the breaking even is with the 3rd spell-level and when reaching 4th the wizard/sorcerer starts to outshine the fighter due to many mighty utility and movement spells.
but, in fact, the wizard is still not able to deal with many monsters, the most efficient way is to cast the buffs on the fighter and hold back the own offense until it really is needed or promising.

but anyhow, its known over here that i am not a fan of the core fighter,
i think there are quite some fighter-builds (in the mean of fighting, not core fighter) out there that can compete a caster until the very high levels.

at last the very abusive spells come within the 9th spell level, its not possible for a fighter to beat a shapechanged wizard without an own source of powerful magic, imo.

concluding:

i think the break-point is level 7 for wizards and 8 for sorcerers. they have quite some fly, haste and other 3rd level spells and the first 4th that are in no way comparable to anything a fighter can do then.

gs
Funny
peterastrand
10-24-03, 09:46 AM I agree that a 7th level Wiz or 8th level Sorc has greater power than a Fi of the same level but the problem with wiz/sor at 7/8 is the relatively few number of times they can use their best spells.

And yes the question was not ment as a duel between Fi and wiz/Sor more like party vs Monster usability.

Sleep is good but what do u do as level 1 Wiz against a few skeletons?
Funny Slaughter
10-24-03, 10:12 AM i would say even 3rd level spells are something better then everything a fighter can do, not that much in regards of the solution of a fight but to survive one.
if you can fly and the monster can not: cheap win.

of course, improved invisibility is limited to a certain amount of time and can be cast only a few times, but against nearly all monsters its the killer-spell.

the biggest problem is that the caster himself is not capable to deal enough damage, a lucky hit with the bow here and then, thats it.

if we take a look at PC vs. monster a single caster needs a quite higher level, maybe around 13 to 15, to be better then a fighter.
but i would say that at 7th/8th level the casters tend to survive combats more easily or often while still sharing the process of defetaing the enemy.

given an iconic party of four i would more likely add a fighter at level 3 for example and a sorcerer at level 8.

gs
Funny
The Club
10-24-03, 10:23 AM Funny Slaughter's analysis is right on.

I'd like to point out that I wasn't really thinking in terms of a duel so much as the glaring weakness of the fighter types.

A fighter is very useful for dealing out damage in a stand-up fight. With arcane and clerical support, the warrior-type can be very potent. When dealing with opponents with certain kinds of magic and abilities (especially enchantment/compulsion stuff), the fighter can actually become a liability. You need someone standing by with counterspell or dispel magic (which also takes down the magical buffs so lovingly applied).

It may not be the most popular use for arcane spellcasters, but they can be incredible when used chiefly as support (and tactical control) instead of direct damage.

I'm afraid I haven't had a lot of games get into real high levels. To those who have, I have a question: How does Spell Resistance tip the scales? It seems that the warrior would get a little of his thunder back, once the high SR creatures take the stage. Is that correct, by and large?

Der Kloob
Jadeforest
10-24-03, 10:33 AM Iron Will or a Cloak of Resistance can really help a fighter out to resist mind affecting spells, unless he / she is walking around with a negative wisdom score.
Besides the game is based on Team work, the only way to get ahead really is to work together in roles so everyone can do their job. A fighter / Barb etc may not have the insane utility or flashy spells of a wizard or sorceror 8+, but he tends to absorb and avoid damage better than either of those.
Funny Slaughter
10-24-03, 11:46 AM How does Spell Resistance tip the scales?

high SR makes offensive magic mostly useless.
a lucky disintegrate, destruction or similar is still better then everything the fighers can do.

in high levels especially clerics perform just better then fighters while arcane casters with the right spell-selection get nearly as nasty.

the only real advantage a high-level fighter has are hitpoints, and due to his lack of magical boosted defenses he is not really able to take advantage from this.

anyhow, even in high and epic levels the most powerful use for divine as well as arcane magic stays the buff, within the 3.5-rules and decreased spellpower even more.
even minor magic can double a fighters efficency.

since most people do not play a whole party and most of the fun comes from doing something yourself the poor fighters are sitting around or getting the hits in high-level games if they dont have some special abilities or items.

gs
Funny
Lago AM3P
10-24-03, 12:49 PM It depends how much multiclassing and PrCing your DM allows.

If the answer is 'none' or 'little', then you're boned starting at level 5.
mormagli
10-24-03, 01:06 PM I don't have extensive arena expiriance, so I'll talk in terms of in-game usefullness. In my opinion, a fighter 1-2 is clearly better than a wizard of equal level (especially with good feat choices), at level 3 the fighter is still better, but the wizard just got a new level of spells. At this point, very carefull spell selection will even things up with the fighter (especially if the F is busy with prerequisite feats at this point). at level four, the fighter takes the lead again, as it can have gotten to the end of certain feat trees. at level 5 however, any number of spells (and spell combos) the wizard now can choose from make it instantly surpass the utility/power of the fighter (unless of course, your GM puts a lot of enfasis on many encounters/day, in which case the wizard only really gets the durability much later, say lvl9)
Sisyfos
10-24-03, 03:27 PM The decreased DCs shifted the balance even more towards fighter buffing which is good in my opinion. It is pretty easy to increase the save bonuses and very hard to increase the save DCs. I started playing a 14th level incantatrix (INT 20 + headband +6) and during the first fight not a single opponent failed a saving throw against me. The best I could do was battlefield control through solid fog, etc. The paladins dealed massive amounts of damage and saved the day. Displacement would have been very effective, but I was unable to reach the fighters to cast it (solid fog).

There is a lot of synergy between melee characters and wizards now. One just needs to be prepared to utilize it:
- Displacement effectively doubles fighters hit points and improves his saves.
- Stat buffs make him hit harder and endure more.
- Anti-magic shell protects fighters very nicely from magical attacks if you are willing to tag along.
- Haste
- Greater Invisibility can also be cast on others.

--> So who is more effective in a party? A buffing wizard is very effective if he has someone to buff. If he is a fighter wizard... well :D A single fighter is pretty weak, a single wizard (with high CON) is a bit better in my opinion. As a combo they are very powerful though.

Sisyfos
eudas
10-24-03, 03:35 PM Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
high SR makes offensive magic mostly useless.
a lucky disintegrate, destruction or similar is still better then everything the fighers can do.

this post made me wonder why drow fighters aren't more popular; they get +2dex -2con +2int +2cha which, ok, aren't really fighter stats, but they can work with it, and the drow get free SR and a host of other abilities.

eudas
foxylady
10-24-03, 04:02 PM Originally posted by eudas
this post made me wonder why drow fighters aren't more popular; they get +2dex -2con +2int +2cha which, ok, aren't really fighter stats, but they can work with it, and the drow get free SR and a host of other abilities.
LA hurts fighters less than spellcasters, so there's certainly merit to this. One of the problems is at low levels where the loss of HD really hurts front-line types, as does the loss of Con. Drow are "usually evil", which nixes them in most campaigns, and you might have a problem convincing your DM to allow a non-evil Drow. Another question is whether it's better to be immune to the enemy's spells or to be buffed by your friends, since you will often not be able to drop your SR during a fight in order to accept buffing.
Funny Slaughter
10-24-03, 04:16 PM SR is nice to have, but the +2 LA and -2 con a drow pays is a bit too much in most games, you do never come on par with other fighters so you will die in melee instead of a spell, nothing worthy.
if you really want SR you could consider bariaur, thats a really good race for its ECL. hagspawn is another one.

SR works against enemy spellcasters and as a fighter you wont be able to take them alone anyhow since there are quite some spells that ignore SR or just help the wizard to vanish/fight.

gs
Funny
Malhavoc32
10-24-03, 05:11 PM Hey all, thought I would add my vote for a really broken PC race that grants SR.

Pixie: Stat adj -4 str, +8 dex, +6 Int, +4 wis, +6 chr

In addition to this thier most outstanding abilities are:

DR 10/cold iron
SR 15 + Character level
and finally
Greater Invis at will as a free action.

LA +4

I am currently playing a Level 2 Fighter pixie archer.

atm the character is not the most powerful offensively, but is very tough for the enemy to hit, or even find in combat for that matter.

But back OT...

It all depends on the amount of magic in the campaign. In most campaigns, and from what I see from WotC, magic items are just store bought supplies for adventurers as they gain levels and consequently more gold, they can employ casters to make items for them, or if they find items they can't use, then they trade for items they have use for.

In these types of campaigns Fighters can almost always outshine wizards offensively since with the right items fighters can be nearly immune to magic covering thier inherrent weakness. At this point Wizards are mainly utility characters providing buffing and transportation until they gain 8th-9th level spells which tend to still outshine fighters even in a medium-high magic camaign.

On the other hand, in a campaign where magic is very rare (the campaign I am playing in now at 5th level the party's most powerful items are two Mighty Comp. Long Bows). In these types of campaigns saves are often failed, and spells are devastating making the wizard far superior to the fighter type. In this type of campaign once a wizard gains access to their mainstay offense spells at about 5th level, wizards are almost unstoppable.

Anyhow, just my 2 cp.

Mal
Funny Slaughter
10-24-03, 07:22 PM fighters can be nearly immune to magic

could you bring up a few examples?
just bring your core human fighter X with X being 6, 10, 15 for example and show me how you get nearly immune to magic.

really looking forward to this very new thing,

gs
Funny
Eagle Prince
10-24-03, 07:56 PM Just get a mantle of spell resistance as one of your main items and it can easily have a high enough SR to basically make you immune to anyone with a caster of your character level or lower.

There is a new general feat in Book of Exalted Deeds that lets you enchant one signature item using only gold and prayer-time. Choose a cloak as the item, and then simply spend your gold toward raising it as mantle of spell resistance and cloak of resistance. At level 20, you could have SR 40 and +5 resistance bonus to all saves, which is highly immune to magic IMO. Also, you can use an item with gold value in place of gold, and even get full price for it instead of the typical 1/2 you normally get for selling stuff, making it really cheep to enchant your item.
Ogre Mage
10-25-03, 03:15 AM I don't play arena P vs. P so I can't comment on that.

In terms of the contribution to the party I would say the Fighter and Wizard are on equal standing from about levels 5-8. At levels 1-3, wizards can barely cast any spells, obviously can't fight and die if a strong breeze hits them. At the early levels, the fighter might arguably be the group's most important member.

Wizards finally come into their own at 5th level, when they get access to the all-important 3rd level spells. However, the fighter has built up strong combat capability and his feats are on equal par with the special abilities of the other classes. Wizards can do nifty and vital things like fireball, gaseous form and dimension door but they are in big trouble without a tank to hold the front line. Running low on spells will still sometimes be an issue. Both classes are very important at this stage of the game (5-8).

The breakdown begins at 9th level, around the time that "running out of spells" really starts to become less of a concern. With spells like teleport , disintegrate and anti-magic field , wizards can really dictate the pace of the game and what happens to the party. Around 10th level, bonus feats start to become very weak compared to what the other classes get and by 13th level, the gap is striking. A smart fighter will have used his bonus feats to prepare for a prestige class. Otherwise, grab some pom poms so you can be a cheerleader for the party wizard and cleric.
Tellish_of_Ket
10-27-03, 12:23 AM How many times have you been surprised? As an LG player i can say, almost every mod. For several reasons. One, is the author says so, and man DM's are too incompetent to properly adjudicate based on individual characters and so just uses the cheap cop-out, of..."Well, it's written that way."

You wil thank your fighter absolutely every mod you play when you get surprised by a pair of fiendish dire-lions and your lead fighter absorbs all the dmg and is still able to press forward. If that was your wizard, even at 10th lvl....you're as good as dead.

Then what? fireball? not likely, you'll just get laughed at by the lions. You buff. Buff and Buff your fighters again and again. There will be times when you can use mass dmg/area effect, but not often. Your fighters with multiple buffs will eliminate anything that the party can possibly face. In the rare occasion that they cannot, that's where your versatility will come into play and you can use ranged spells to blast your opponent while your fighters do what they can to absord dmg away from you.

I can tell you 1:1 arena style... there probably isn't a wizard of equal lvl that can take my fighter/monk without needing some serious luck. And i'm not talking about FR/OA cheese either. He's an LG leggit, core character.

In my experience, thus far, wizards are rarely the 'encounter ender'. Although they have, i'm just saying it's rare. The most successful wizards i've seen are those with a good combination of buffs/offence...leaning heavier toward buffs. When you fight your first Iron Golem, or Fiendish Tyrannasaurus Rex, you'll thank them.

Tellish

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
peterastrand 10-24-03, 08:16 AM	I think all agree that at lower levels Fi > Wiz and at higher level Wiz > Fi. But at what level is Fi = Wiz Somewhere between 9 and 12?
Setanos 10-24-03, 08:29 AM	Maybe 5-6 are = levels. Once a wizard gets limited travel ability via Dimension Door, its difficult for a fighter to really finish a wizard unless they get a lucky crit. A wizard on the other hand, with patience and tactics, can kill said fighter reliably well.
The Club 10-24-03, 09:15 AM	Even at first level wizards are extremely dangerous to fighter types. A Sleep or Color Spray can open up fighter types (bad Will saves) to coup de grace immediately. Wizards only have so many spell slots to use at low levels, but throwing the right spell at the right guy can make them pretty menacing. Because of "save-or-die" arcane and divine magic, fighters are never really safe. The whole Enchantment school of magic can exploit the fighter's lousy Will save and create nightmares for adventuring parties. The Club
Funny Slaughter 10-24-03, 09:22 AM	i try to give my opinion not for a duel but for a party. in my experience the breaking even is with the 3rd spell-level and when reaching 4th the wizard/sorcerer starts to outshine the fighter due to many mighty utility and movement spells. but, in fact, the wizard is still not able to deal with many monsters, the most efficient way is to cast the buffs on the fighter and hold back the own offense until it really is needed or promising. but anyhow, its known over here that i am not a fan of the core fighter, i think there are quite some fighter-builds (in the mean of fighting, not core fighter) out there that can compete a caster until the very high levels. at last the very abusive spells come within the 9th spell level, its not possible for a fighter to beat a shapechanged wizard without an own source of powerful magic, imo. concluding: i think the break-point is level 7 for wizards and 8 for sorcerers. they have quite some fly, haste and other 3rd level spells and the first 4th that are in no way comparable to anything a fighter can do then. gs Funny
peterastrand 10-24-03, 09:46 AM	I agree that a 7th level Wiz or 8th level Sorc has greater power than a Fi of the same level but the problem with wiz/sor at 7/8 is the relatively few number of times they can use their best spells. And yes the question was not ment as a duel between Fi and wiz/Sor more like party vs Monster usability. Sleep is good but what do u do as level 1 Wiz against a few skeletons?
Funny Slaughter 10-24-03, 10:12 AM	i would say even 3rd level spells are something better then everything a fighter can do, not that much in regards of the solution of a fight but to survive one. if you can fly and the monster can not: cheap win. of course, improved invisibility is limited to a certain amount of time and can be cast only a few times, but against nearly all monsters its the killer-spell. the biggest problem is that the caster himself is not capable to deal enough damage, a lucky hit with the bow here and then, thats it. if we take a look at PC vs. monster a single caster needs a quite higher level, maybe around 13 to 15, to be better then a fighter. but i would say that at 7th/8th level the casters tend to survive combats more easily or often while still sharing the process of defetaing the enemy. given an iconic party of four i would more likely add a fighter at level 3 for example and a sorcerer at level 8. gs Funny
The Club 10-24-03, 10:23 AM	Funny Slaughter's analysis is right on. I'd like to point out that I wasn't really thinking in terms of a duel so much as the glaring weakness of the fighter types. A fighter is very useful for dealing out damage in a stand-up fight. With arcane and clerical support, the warrior-type can be very potent. When dealing with opponents with certain kinds of magic and abilities (especially enchantment/compulsion stuff), the fighter can actually become a liability. You need someone standing by with counterspell or dispel magic (which also takes down the magical buffs so lovingly applied). It may not be the most popular use for arcane spellcasters, but they can be incredible when used chiefly as support (and tactical control) instead of direct damage. I'm afraid I haven't had a lot of games get into real high levels. To those who have, I have a question: How does Spell Resistance tip the scales? It seems that the warrior would get a little of his thunder back, once the high SR creatures take the stage. Is that correct, by and large? Der Kloob
Jadeforest 10-24-03, 10:33 AM	Iron Will or a Cloak of Resistance can really help a fighter out to resist mind affecting spells, unless he / she is walking around with a negative wisdom score. Besides the game is based on Team work, the only way to get ahead really is to work together in roles so everyone can do their job. A fighter / Barb etc may not have the insane utility or flashy spells of a wizard or sorceror 8+, but he tends to absorb and avoid damage better than either of those.
Funny Slaughter 10-24-03, 11:46 AM	How does Spell Resistance tip the scales? high SR makes offensive magic mostly useless. a lucky disintegrate, destruction or similar is still better then everything the fighers can do. in high levels especially clerics perform just better then fighters while arcane casters with the right spell-selection get nearly as nasty. the only real advantage a high-level fighter has are hitpoints, and due to his lack of magical boosted defenses he is not really able to take advantage from this. anyhow, even in high and epic levels the most powerful use for divine as well as arcane magic stays the buff, within the 3.5-rules and decreased spellpower even more. even minor magic can double a fighters efficency. since most people do not play a whole party and most of the fun comes from doing something yourself the poor fighters are sitting around or getting the hits in high-level games if they dont have some special abilities or items. gs Funny
Lago AM3P 10-24-03, 12:49 PM	It depends how much multiclassing and PrCing your DM allows. If the answer is 'none' or 'little', then you're boned starting at level 5.
mormagli 10-24-03, 01:06 PM	I don't have extensive arena expiriance, so I'll talk in terms of in-game usefullness. In my opinion, a fighter 1-2 is clearly better than a wizard of equal level (especially with good feat choices), at level 3 the fighter is still better, but the wizard just got a new level of spells. At this point, very carefull spell selection will even things up with the fighter (especially if the F is busy with prerequisite feats at this point). at level four, the fighter takes the lead again, as it can have gotten to the end of certain feat trees. at level 5 however, any number of spells (and spell combos) the wizard now can choose from make it instantly surpass the utility/power of the fighter (unless of course, your GM puts a lot of enfasis on many encounters/day, in which case the wizard only really gets the durability much later, say lvl9)
Sisyfos 10-24-03, 03:27 PM	The decreased DCs shifted the balance even more towards fighter buffing which is good in my opinion. It is pretty easy to increase the save bonuses and very hard to increase the save DCs. I started playing a 14th level incantatrix (INT 20 + headband +6) and during the first fight not a single opponent failed a saving throw against me. The best I could do was battlefield control through solid fog, etc. The paladins dealed massive amounts of damage and saved the day. Displacement would have been very effective, but I was unable to reach the fighters to cast it (solid fog). There is a lot of synergy between melee characters and wizards now. One just needs to be prepared to utilize it: - Displacement effectively doubles fighters hit points and improves his saves. - Stat buffs make him hit harder and endure more. - Anti-magic shell protects fighters very nicely from magical attacks if you are willing to tag along. - Haste - Greater Invisibility can also be cast on others. --> So who is more effective in a party? A buffing wizard is very effective if he has someone to buff. If he is a fighter wizard... well :D A single fighter is pretty weak, a single wizard (with high CON) is a bit better in my opinion. As a combo they are very powerful though. Sisyfos
eudas 10-24-03, 03:35 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter high SR makes offensive magic mostly useless. a lucky disintegrate, destruction or similar is still better then everything the fighers can do. this post made me wonder why drow fighters aren't more popular; they get +2dex -2con +2int +2cha which, ok, aren't really fighter stats, but they can work with it, and the drow get free SR and a host of other abilities. eudas
foxylady 10-24-03, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by eudas this post made me wonder why drow fighters aren't more popular; they get +2dex -2con +2int +2cha which, ok, aren't really fighter stats, but they can work with it, and the drow get free SR and a host of other abilities. LA hurts fighters less than spellcasters, so there's certainly merit to this. One of the problems is at low levels where the loss of HD really hurts front-line types, as does the loss of Con. Drow are "usually evil", which nixes them in most campaigns, and you might have a problem convincing your DM to allow a non-evil Drow. Another question is whether it's better to be immune to the enemy's spells or to be buffed by your friends, since you will often not be able to drop your SR during a fight in order to accept buffing.
Funny Slaughter 10-24-03, 04:16 PM	SR is nice to have, but the +2 LA and -2 con a drow pays is a bit too much in most games, you do never come on par with other fighters so you will die in melee instead of a spell, nothing worthy. if you really want SR you could consider bariaur, thats a really good race for its ECL. hagspawn is another one. SR works against enemy spellcasters and as a fighter you wont be able to take them alone anyhow since there are quite some spells that ignore SR or just help the wizard to vanish/fight. gs Funny
Malhavoc32 10-24-03, 05:11 PM	Hey all, thought I would add my vote for a really broken PC race that grants SR. Pixie: Stat adj -4 str, +8 dex, +6 Int, +4 wis, +6 chr In addition to this thier most outstanding abilities are: DR 10/cold iron SR 15 + Character level and finally Greater Invis at will as a free action. LA +4 I am currently playing a Level 2 Fighter pixie archer. atm the character is not the most powerful offensively, but is very tough for the enemy to hit, or even find in combat for that matter. But back OT... It all depends on the amount of magic in the campaign. In most campaigns, and from what I see from WotC, magic items are just store bought supplies for adventurers as they gain levels and consequently more gold, they can employ casters to make items for them, or if they find items they can't use, then they trade for items they have use for. In these types of campaigns Fighters can almost always outshine wizards offensively since with the right items fighters can be nearly immune to magic covering thier inherrent weakness. At this point Wizards are mainly utility characters providing buffing and transportation until they gain 8th-9th level spells which tend to still outshine fighters even in a medium-high magic camaign. On the other hand, in a campaign where magic is very rare (the campaign I am playing in now at 5th level the party's most powerful items are two Mighty Comp. Long Bows). In these types of campaigns saves are often failed, and spells are devastating making the wizard far superior to the fighter type. In this type of campaign once a wizard gains access to their mainstay offense spells at about 5th level, wizards are almost unstoppable. Anyhow, just my 2 cp. Mal
Funny Slaughter 10-24-03, 07:22 PM	fighters can be nearly immune to magic could you bring up a few examples? just bring your core human fighter X with X being 6, 10, 15 for example and show me how you get nearly immune to magic. really looking forward to this very new thing, gs Funny
Eagle Prince 10-24-03, 07:56 PM	Just get a mantle of spell resistance as one of your main items and it can easily have a high enough SR to basically make you immune to anyone with a caster of your character level or lower. There is a new general feat in Book of Exalted Deeds that lets you enchant one signature item using only gold and prayer-time. Choose a cloak as the item, and then simply spend your gold toward raising it as mantle of spell resistance and cloak of resistance. At level 20, you could have SR 40 and +5 resistance bonus to all saves, which is highly immune to magic IMO. Also, you can use an item with gold value in place of gold, and even get full price for it instead of the typical 1/2 you normally get for selling stuff, making it really cheep to enchant your item.
Ogre Mage 10-25-03, 03:15 AM	I don't play arena P vs. P so I can't comment on that. In terms of the contribution to the party I would say the Fighter and Wizard are on equal standing from about levels 5-8. At levels 1-3, wizards can barely cast any spells, obviously can't fight and die if a strong breeze hits them. At the early levels, the fighter might arguably be the group's most important member. Wizards finally come into their own at 5th level, when they get access to the all-important 3rd level spells. However, the fighter has built up strong combat capability and his feats are on equal par with the special abilities of the other classes. Wizards can do nifty and vital things like fireball, gaseous form and dimension door but they are in big trouble without a tank to hold the front line. Running low on spells will still sometimes be an issue. Both classes are very important at this stage of the game (5-8). The breakdown begins at 9th level, around the time that "running out of spells" really starts to become less of a concern. With spells like teleport , disintegrate and anti-magic field , wizards can really dictate the pace of the game and what happens to the party. Around 10th level, bonus feats start to become very weak compared to what the other classes get and by 13th level, the gap is striking. A smart fighter will have used his bonus feats to prepare for a prestige class. Otherwise, grab some pom poms so you can be a cheerleader for the party wizard and cleric.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-27-03, 12:23 AM	How many times have you been surprised? As an LG player i can say, almost every mod. For several reasons. One, is the author says so, and man DM's are too incompetent to properly adjudicate based on individual characters and so just uses the cheap cop-out, of..."Well, it's written that way." You wil thank your fighter absolutely every mod you play when you get surprised by a pair of fiendish dire-lions and your lead fighter absorbs all the dmg and is still able to press forward. If that was your wizard, even at 10th lvl....you're as good as dead. Then what? fireball? not likely, you'll just get laughed at by the lions. You buff. Buff and Buff your fighters again and again. There will be times when you can use mass dmg/area effect, but not often. Your fighters with multiple buffs will eliminate anything that the party can possibly face. In the rare occasion that they cannot, that's where your versatility will come into play and you can use ranged spells to blast your opponent while your fighters do what they can to absord dmg away from you. I can tell you 1:1 arena style... there probably isn't a wizard of equal lvl that can take my fighter/monk without needing some serious luck. And i'm not talking about FR/OA cheese either. He's an LG leggit, core character. In my experience, thus far, wizards are rarely the 'encounter ender'. Although they have, i'm just saying it's rare. The most successful wizards i've seen are those with a good combination of buffs/offence...leaning heavier toward buffs. When you fight your first Iron Golem, or Fiendish Tyrannasaurus Rex, you'll thank them. Tellish